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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 10:43 PM
Original message
Photo showing debris hitting WTC7
On several older threads, there have been questions raised by CTers about whether any debris from the collapse of WTC1 actually hit WTC7. I found this photo on the internet and thought I'd post it here for discussion as it sure does look like evidence of a lot of debris hitting #7.



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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
1. Source?
63d9ce50.jpg brings up nothing on google

and photobucket is not a verifiable source
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. The photobucket account is mine.
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 01:00 AM by Jazz2006
I upload photos to my account before posting them so that I don't break any hotlink rules or steal bandwidth from other sites.

Edit to add: and when I upload them, photobucket assigns the photos a unique identifier, in this case 63d9ce50.jpg, which is why you won't find it via a google search.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I inferred that. What I'd like to know is, where did you get it? nt
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. I will try to find out where it originated
and post the results here.

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. You mean you don't know?
It just wound up on your hard drive all by itself?

Odd, that.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Don't be so silly.
Like I said in the opening post, I found it on the internet. As I said subsequently, I'll try to ascertain its origin.

Got a problem with that?

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Where did you find it on the internet?
If you wouldn't mind.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. Is there some part of
"I will try to find out where it originated and post the results here." that you didn't understand?

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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. Let us know when you "remember." (n/t)
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. Could it have been www.911talkingpoints.com? n/t
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #47
67. No, it couldn't have been.
That address gives me the following message:

Server not found
Firefox can't find the server at www.911talkingpoints.com.

* Check the address for typing errors such as
ww.example.com instead of
www.example.com

* If you are unable to load any pages, check your computer's network
connection.

* If your computer or network is protected by a firewall or proxy, make sure
that Firefox is permitted to access the Web.


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Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #47
75. I think I remember seeing it on the PhysOrgForum board a few months ago.
I believe it was in this thread. If you are interested, you could start by looking for it there.

- Make7
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #75
79. That could be it, thanks.
Edited on Fri Aug-18-06 02:48 AM by Jazz2006
As I said elsewhere in this thread, I found the photo in a thread that had thousands of posts and normally, I save a link so that I can find it later but I guess I didn't in this instance.

That particular thread has nearly a thousand pages and I'm not inclined to go through them all again to look for the providence of a single photo for the benefit of CTers here.

Perhaps in this instance, given the huge search required, I'll just do like CTers do instead, and say, "prove me wrong".


Edit: clarity
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carlvs Donating Member (165 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. Then you will be interested in what was just added on debunking911.com
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Structural equivalent of a skinned knee.
I don't see a single broken bone:


?link

You do know that stonework was basically screwed onto the frames, don't you?
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Looks like lots of "broken bones" in this one.


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wildbilln864 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. yet not enough...
damage to bring the whole thing completely down!
Remember the Murrow building? Mor damage was there wasn't there?
Did it collapse?
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. I agree wholeheartedly...eom
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. How does that , get to this:
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. Not enough?
On what facts and evidence do you base that assertion?

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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. It must have been explosions ...
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 12:10 PM by medienanalyse
It must have been explosions-

Otherwise the mystery would have gone. And some socalled sceptics prefer mysteries instead of simple explanations, some Zionist involvement instead of a clearly visible responsibility of Bush, Rumsfeld and the PNAC guys.

No way that a building falls when

-two earthquakes shook the ground just some feet away

- it was bombed by heavy steel debris

- an illegally installed oiltank inside explodes

- it burns several hours

- it is built in the same fatal way no skyscraper ever was built before but WTC 1+2

Never ever. It must have been explosions.

It must have been explosions – although nobody dares to talk about WTC 3,4,5,6.Maybe they got their controlled demolition too? And nobody noticed them ? Because they had to be teared down too.But who cares -

It must have been explosions. Let us imagine we would not talk about controlled demolition anymore but about PNAC, Peak Oil, the open visible criminal acts of Bush, Cheney, RumsfeldMY GOD, that would be politics and not mystery anymore !


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Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. self-delete
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 12:19 PM by Make7

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Ask not "why did the building fall?" Ask "How did asymmetrical fires and
assymetrical structural damage cause a building to fall at
near-freefall speed into its own footprint?"

Ask "Why are the official reports contradictory, why was
the evidence destroyed, and why has NIST still not released
its final report on WTC7 which is now nine months overdue?"
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
33. Hard to say.
I have yet to see a convincing photo of the corner damage, which in any case was minor.

And the "hole" is pure fiction.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
48. I don't see anything ...
except dead people, er, image links.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. Sorry about that.
When I first started the thread, the photo was in the wrong directory at my photobucket account, and I didn't realize that when I moved it to the right one, it would kill the link.

But I've posted it in another post here - see #28 - it's the very last photo in that post.

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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. That is a very strange photo. (The brown one, not the grey one.)
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 02:33 AM by petgoat
(Though the grey one is strange too.)

What is that thing that looks like a crane tower,
apparently leaning up against WTC7? I read recently
that the s. side of WTC7 was 80 yards wide. If so,
the columns are something like 17.2 feet apart, and
that crane tower is 16 feet across.

Now why is it that these professional disaster photographers
provide these secret pictures to NIST in 6/04 and now to
debunking911 in 6/06, when these pictures had never been
released before?

I'll note that it appears from this picture that WTC7's south
wall was turned a bit to the NE from the axis of the Verizon
Bld's south wall.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. .
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 02:39 AM by Jazz2006
edited because petgoat just edited her/his post so mine may not have been properly responsive in light of his/her edits.

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mrgerbik Donating Member (652 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. very true
and if this is the official premise of WTC7's collapse, why isn't the hole photographed from many other angles other then the 2 or 3 pics we are "allowed" to see? I would think it would be very well documented with pictures, as WTC1 and 2 were.
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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Yes why isn`t it documented
the hole and that hole and the other hole ....
And why don`t we have an exact account of every steel bar, every column in its weight and velocity ?

We need all these data - otherwise 9/11 stays to be a mystery.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. At some point the mystery gets to be... why can't we get any answers?
Why are the official accounts so contradictory?

Why was the evidence destroyed?

Why did that crane tower in the brown picture not
show up in the debris pictures?

Why did none of the four firemen in the brown picture
testify to the gaping hole? Only Captain Boyle did.

How come none of the firemen reported internal structural
damage?

How come the photographer of the grey picture didn't go
up the street for a better shot of the damage to the
corner of WTC7?

Why did FEMA not know about these pictures, and why did
they consider the tales of structural damage to be without
credibility?

How did asymmetrical fires and asymmetrical structural
damage cause the building to come down in its own footprint?

Why was the insurance payout made so hastily without
investigation?

How did the team reported by Deputy Chief Hayden to have
put a transit on the bulge on the SW corner between 10 and
13 do so if there was no SW corner between 8 and 14?

If structural damage was caused to WTC7 by WTC1 debris, the
WTC1 debris should have been pretty conspicuous in the pile.
How come nobody took any pictures?

It's not just about political effectiveness. It's about
holding our public officials to a reasonable standard of
accountabilty. This business that everything is a state
secret and none of the citizens' business has got to stop!




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medienanalyse Donating Member (727 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Why don`t you stop ask silly questions ?
Why don`t you just start to answer the clear and simple questions, such as

"Why was the evidence destroyed? "

It would be easier to answer it if you put it in a grammatical order which makes sense:
"evidence is not destroyed" by itself.
Somebody does it.

So it is a WHO- question with an answer, followed by a WHY question with an answer too.

After getting that fixed it might be important to dig a little bit more into the WHY by asking for the interests of any person involved.

And after that most of the other questions can be put into an order of importance, of clarity and of possibilities.

Order and ystematical thinking seems not be very common in the "physical evidence" community. It is not hip. it is calm and cool. No videos, no pictures. Logic. Being relaxed and sticking to ONE question instead of thousands. Focus. Concentration.

Instead we hear a childrens quarrel. Get adult, I reapeat it.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. It doesn't matter who destroyed it, because we aren't going to know.
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 05:08 PM by petgoat
Kevin Ryan said it was ordered destroyed by Richard Tomasetti
of the engineering firm Thornton and Tomasetti. Charles Thornton
was on the NIST advisory board.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060327100957690

You would think that the former federal prosecutor Rudy Giuliani
might have had some thoughts on the destruction of evidence,
or the FBI might have had some thoughts, but this was war, not
a crime scene. "We don't need no stinking evidence!"

We'll never know who had approval power, so the point is pointless.
The WHO was a nobody, Richard Tomasetti.

What matters is: The evidence was destroyed. ASCE investigators
should have been there to photographed and catalogue every piece
as it came off the pile. They weren't allowed.



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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. The photographer's statement is interesting
"Hours before the collapse of 7 WTC, Fire Chiefs at the scene advised all units to stay away from 7 WTC because of the collapse dangers. They had no water to fight the blaze and the building was damaged from the collapse of the North Tower."
If there were no firemen in 7, then who did Silverstein want to "pull" (out of the building)? What's the story - a rogue group of firemen broke into the building against orders and started to fight the fire even though they didn't have any water?
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Make7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Has anyone been able to determine the time of that call? ( n/t )
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. No
And it's a really big deal. The way he said it sort of implies it was in the afternoon, but he may just have mis-spoken and implied something that wasn't true. IMO whichever way you look at it "pull it" must be a mistake - in the context it should either be "pull them" (meaning firemen) or "destory it with explosives". Maybe Larry's not hip to demo slang and got his forms of demolition wrong. Maybe he thinks a 47-storey building is small and they were going to do it with cables. Maybe he conspired with the fire department to destroy the building, but it fell over on its own before they could do it.

Even if phone records were forthcoming (a very long shot at the moment), there might be multiple calls, which would really confuse the issue.

AFAIK 7 was evacuated before the North Tower collapsed and the fire cheifs designated the operation a rescue mission, not a fire-fighting one, so I don't really see why firemen should have gone in at all (especially with reference to the lack of water), but I guess some may well have done at the start (for example to check whether it was really evacuated).

Disclaimer: I don't see anything wrong with any decision to demolish WTC 7 - nobody died.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
65. No, although it is said to be in the afternoon by
Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, in a statement he gave clarifying the "pull it" comment:

Seven World Trade Center collapsed at 5:20 p.m. on September 11, 2001, after burning for seven hours. There were no casualties, thanks to the heroism of the Fire Department and the work of Silverstein Properties employees who evacuated tenants from the building.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) conducted a thorough investigation of the collapse of all the World Trade Center buildings. The FEMA report concluded that the collapse of Seven World Trade Center was a direct result of fires triggered by debris from the collapse of WTC Tower 1.

In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building.

Later in the day, the Fire Commander ordered his firefighters out of the building and at 5:20 p.m. the building collapsed. No lives were lost at Seven World Trade Center on September 11, 2001.



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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
34. There was no phone call on 9/11.
Nothing Larry could have said on 9/11 would have made the least difference to anybody.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
37. No offense, but this analysis is as jenky as any I've seen.
If you believe this analysis is anymore credible than 9-11 demolition analyses, well, you're a true believer in the official story. Even if there was a shred of truth in this speculation, it still doesn't make explain why the building fell at freefall speed into its own footprint. It looks like the front would've sheared off.

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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
40. They do exactly what they claim
"conspiracy sites" do. Like they mention Deutsche Bank but they don't mention that it did not fall symmetrically to the ground, plus WHEN did the fires start in wtc7, seems it was not until after the towers fell..
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Franknable Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. I don't understand, so I'm asking: what does this prove, if anything?

Thank you.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. The picture appears to show debris from the collapsing north tower
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 03:14 PM by petgoat
bouncing off the south side of WTC7. Of course, since the picture
has not been authenticated, we should all forget that we ever saw
it.

Part of the reason the issue is controversial is because FEMA
did not believe the reports of structural damage, and their map
of the debris fields (WTC2 debris flew across Liberty Street,
and WTC1 debris flew across West Street into the WFC building and
across Vesey into the Verizon building) pointedly did NOT show
WTC1 debris reaching as far as WTC7.

There are pictures of WTC1 debris having reached as far as
the s. side of Vesey. There are none showing WTC1 debris
in the WTC7 debris pile after its collapse.

The insurance payout on WTC7 was $861 million. The sloppy
investigation seems peculiar.

Oh--and Welcome to DU! And to the 9/11 dungeon!

We're one big happy family of spooks and loonies here! :hi:



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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. The purpose in posting it was that
there are some members in this forum who claim that no debris from WTC1 hit WTC7, and that, therefore, there wasn't any damage to the building, and that, therefore, the firefighters who said they saw damage were either wrong or lying, and that, therefore, FDNY's decision early on that the building was unsalvageable was not justified, and that, therefore, the building must have been brought down by controlled demolitions at the behest of Larry Silverstein.

Of course, I am paraphrasing and over-simplifying, but that's the jist of it.

The photo itself does not prove anything, of course, about the extent of the damage but the purpose in posting it is as set out above.

There are numerous other photos showing the proximity between the buildings and what appears to me to be an obvious fact that the building could hardly avoid being damaged by the collapse of WTC1, but that particular photo struck me as interesting because of the different location and angle that it was taken from than the others I've seen to date.

Here are some other photos that illustrate the proximity and fallout:











This one, however, taken from a different location and angle than the others, seems to show the proximity and unavoidable fallout more clearly.




That was why I posted it.



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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. And when you combine that picture with the pics I grabbed recently
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 10:41 PM by boloboffin
from a video shot across the Hudson:







It's really clear that some major damage was done to 7 World Trade by debris from 1.

On edit: when you watch the tape, it looks like part of the exterior of 1 WTC is flipping over 6 (I believe it is) and into 7.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes, I've seen that video
But I don't know how to do screen grabs. :(

And you're right, boloboffin, I think that the idea that WTC7 was not seriously damaged by WTC1 is pretty difficult to sustain.

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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #31
38. If you have a PC, just press the print screen button, and paste into
graphics software, or Paint (print screen takes a screencap of the entire screen). Certain types of video require that you turn off your hardware acceleration first.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #38
50. Thank you.
I appreciate the assistance. Unfortunately, I do not have any graphics software (unless there is some program that comes with Windows XP?)

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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #50
69. You should have "Paint" in the Accessories folder if you have XP.
After you press the Print Screen button, open Paint, and then choose "Paste" under the Edit menu heading. It will save it as a large bit .bmp file, so you'll want to upload it to an online image editor like this to alter the file type and make it smaller:

http://www.cellsea.com/java-cellsea/media/index.htm

I suggest saving it as a .png , as .jpg can be lossy and have compression wrinkles which might obscure the image.

There are other image editors listed here:

http://www.smileycat.com/miaow/archives/000267.html
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
49. This is NYC we are talking about. This was the worst disaster in history.
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 04:08 PM by mhatrw
Everybody's got a camera phone, and WTC-7 didn't collapse until MORE THAN SEVEN HOURS after WTC-1 collapsed.

So why do we have to infer substantial damage to WTC-7 from a video shot across the Hudson? Where are the scores and scores of photos that must have documented this extensive damage if it in fact occurred?
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. The area had been evacuated.
There is something about not one, but two hundred story buildings collapsing that makes people get the f*ck out of the way, out of the area, see ya, baby, adios. The first fall made people back up. The second fall made them leave the island.

All the emergency personnel were busy rescuing people and fighting the fires worth fighting. As far as I know, after the collapse of One World Trade, there were only two photographers taking pictures of the entire Pile. So there would not be scores and scores of pictures at this point in time.

And the inference of substantial damage is not solely due to a video shot across the Hudson. There's the picture Jazz used in the OP (a similar one is in the FEMA report on WTC 7 - it was shot just after Jazz's picture). There are the testimonies of the firefighters as to substantial damage. There's the picture recently brought to our attention by Debunking 9/11. There are all the pictures we've already seen from NIST and FEMA, showing damage to the southwest corner and to the roof of 7 World Trade.

The case for substantial damage to the south face of 7 World Trade is...substantial.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Where did the picture Jazz used in OP come from?
Who were the "only two photographers taking pictures of the entire Pile"? Why didn't either of them get multiple shots of the damage to WTC-7 in the seven hours leading up to its collpase?

Where did the picture on Debunking 9/1 come from?

Why weren't these "new photos" available for the FEMA and NIST reports? None of the photos shown in the NIST and FEMA reports show anything comparable to this level of damage to WTC-7.

Finally, people take pictures of disasters unless they are ordered not to. It's simply something that both professional and amateur photographers do.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #52
62. I found it in another forum
but I haven't yet been able to trace back to it. It was a forum that I read but do not post in so it's hard to retrace my steps as it was in a thread that has been going on for months and has thousands of posts.

The photo on Debunking911 came from the photographer - it is explained on Debunking911 here:

http://www.debunking911.com/WTC7.htm

From what I understand, the photographer did give the photo to NIST, and I notice that in their June 2004 interim report on WTC7, they have included other photos by the same photographer.

I agree with you that people take photographs at disaster scenes, and there certainly are thousands of them of the World Trade Center from that day. It seems, though, that in the circumstances, it was tough for civilians to get to the south side of WTC7 at street level after the towers collapsed. And if I'm not mistaken, the photographer said that it was difficult to get shots of anything but smoke on that side, but that he took that photo when the smoke shifted for a moment, or something like that.

(I'm paraphrasing that - it isn't a direct quote - but he has a website at http://www.stevespak.com so you could probably email him there and ask him about it directly if you wish.)

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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. the NYPD has a special unit that videotapes every major event that
happens in this city. no doubt they have video of WT7 in their files. Its just that the BFEE has a long grip on all things connected to 911.
Remember when the FBI made a plea for all citizens who took photo's and video to turn them in to help find the clues to "who done it?"
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
78. Telephoto lenses scrunch everything together.
The guy who wrote "The Flying Elephant" was embarrassed
by this phenominon. He thought he had a third plane
flying by the towers. It seems that a telephoto lens
picked up a plane from across the river.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. I don't doubt that debris hit WTC 7
Debris hit all the buildings surrounding the two towers. However, it is apparent that whatever debris that did hit WTC7, the building was still able to survive the impact.

The pictures I'd like to see are of the supposed massive fires in the building. Yes, there are reports of fires on some of the floor but there is no evidence that I've seen that there was enough fire to cause the total failure of even a damaged building.

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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I agree that it would be
nice to see photographs depicting everything, including the fires in WTC7. Unfortunately, it is rarely the case that there will be photographic evidence of everything that occurs in catastrophic events, even in those much smaller in scale than those that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Fires were reported on numerous floors throughout the day in WTC7 but I have not seen very many photos of them. Moreover, most of the photos that I've seen to date of WTC7 at all are from quite a distance and do not show the south side of the building which is where the damage was apparently done. I view that as attributable to the grim realities of the day, though, rather than to a conspiracy among FDNY, NYPD, Larry Silverstein, etal to blow up the building.

I think that on a "normal" day, WTC7 would have been a huge, massive, major event in and of itself, that it would have been handled very differently than it was on Sept. 11/01, that the fires would have been extinguished (because the firefighting capacity would not have been compromised in the manner in which it was), and that the building would have been salvaged had it not been for the precipitating events (the collapse of the towers) that rendered it unsalvageable.

For what it's worth, here are a couple of photos of fires in WTC7 that I've located:






Lastly, regarding this statement: "no evidence that I've seen that there was enough fire to cause the total failure of even a damaged building", I have no particular expertise in what would be enough fire to cause the failure of a damaged building, but I will certainly welcome any expertise that you can provide about what amount of fire and what amount of damage would satisfy you in that regard.



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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #29
42. Fires are not very impressive n/t
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Neither are the fake fireworks photos.
I mean debris damage.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
59. I agree.
There are a couple more photos at the NIST report site at pages L-25 and L-26 but I don't know how to capture photos from a pdf file.

http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. When I click on the link, I get an error n/t
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. It works for me, but try this:
Type this into your browser and then remove the space right after http://

http:// wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

And if that doesn't work, you can go to the NIST main page at http://wtc.nist.gov and then click on the Publications tab at the top, and the June 2004 report is the third one from the top.

Hope that helps.

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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
68. Thank you n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Mods
I just realized I am linking to a site that is not permitted here (WRH). This was unintentional as it came up when I googled "building fires", and I posted the link because of the picture that is on that page never looking at the website name.

I apologize for this oversight on my part.

-Hope2006
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #29
54. thanks jazz now I see why WT7 collapsed..that truly is a raging
inferno. Looks like 4-5 offices are ablaze. Then we have more office fires lower down. yikes!! Shame on me. I thought for sure explosives were used.
Another issue since Verizon was closer to WT1 how come that building sustaine little damage? I'll wait for your reply.
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
61. I didn't say that those photos showed raging infernos.
I said that there are not very many photos of the fires in WTC7.

There are a couple more on the NIST site on pages L-25 and L-26 here:

http://wtc.nist.gov/progress_report_june04/appendixl.pdf

but I don't know how to capture photos from a pdf file to save and post directly, sorry.

As to your question about why the Verizon building sustained less damage - I don't know. I will suppose that it has to do with its size, construction and location, but I have never looked into it.

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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. BUT, and it's a big ass but,
when we consider the picture showing heavy damage to the sw corner, and this picture showing damage and fires on the east side, and the video of the collapse of WTC1, and videos and photos of the plane impact spewing debris toward it, and the testimony of the firefighters, and the fact that people predicted it would collapse, and the fact that it did collapse, it is very reasonable to presume that the south side of WTC7 was severely damaged. That makes damage visible on 3 sides.

Talk about Occam's razor!
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Adding baloney to baloney does not produce beef.
See "NIST Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster."
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. BUT, considering all evidence produces accurate conclusions.
Please see "the preponderance of the evidence" I mentioned in the previous post.
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petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. "the preponderance of the evidence"
It's kind of like the case for war in Iraq. With all those reasons, one of
them must be legitimate!
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #29
72. Probably the closest example would be
The First Interstate Bank Building, a 62-story structural steel office building with glass curtain walls.



On May 4 and 5, 1988, the Los Angeles City Fire Department responded to an extinguished the most challenging and difficult high-rise fire in the City's history. The fire destroyed five floors of the First Interstate Bank Building, which some experts say could mean the loss of the entire structure. It was the high-rise fire that "you can't put out." It took a total of 383 Department members to do the job. They fought the blaze for 3 hours and 39 minutes to knock it down.

In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans. Although there was concern for structural integrity during the incident, post fire analysis indicates that there was no danger of major or minor structural collapse.



Second, I have not been able to find any pictures from the WTC debris that show 'fire damaged' beams or columns from WTC 1 & 2. You would think that in order for the towers to collapse because of the damage from the jets and the fire, that there would be at least some steel that shows evidence of bending and softening from the fire?

Here's an example of what I am talking about -



I believe that is WTC 5 is the background. It is apparent that the steel frame suffered extensive fire damage and bending as a result.







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Carefulplease Donating Member (749 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. Not close enough...
http://www.mace.manchester.ac.uk/project/research/structures/strucfire/CaseStudy/HistoricFires/BuildingFires/interstateBank.htm

"The total burnout of four and a half floors did not cause damage to the main structural members due to a good application of spayed fire protection on all steelwork. There was only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor decks."

"It was also shown that if fire protection to structural members is adequately designed and applied with quality control, fire damage to fire exposed members will be minimised and structural collapse can be prevented."



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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
46. Very peculiar photo.
Why would a special little ridge of the debris cloud reach out and touch the roof of WTC 7, but leave nothing on it?

Curious.
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. . . . and now it's gone.
Fancy that.
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. But, it's still in post #28. n/t
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dailykoff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Go figure. (n/t)
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Weird, huh? n/t
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Sorry about that.
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:19 PM by Jazz2006
As I explained above, when I first started the thread, the photo was in the wrong directory at my photobucket account, and I didn't realize that when I moved it to the right one, it would kill the link.

There is nothing sinister about it, I assure you. It's just me being a bit of a neophyte when it comes to the photobucket thing.

Edit typo.

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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #55
80. No, it's not "gone".
See other posts above.

It was a simple directory change.

No conspiracy about it, nothing sinister about it.

Sheesh.

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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #46
71. I noticed that too. n/t
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