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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:18 AM
Original message
100% official proof: Doubles at work!
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 05:34 AM by Andre II
This seems to be irrefutable to me.

by John Doe II.

In the exhibits of the Mousssaoui trial there is further proof that doubles have been at work. For people unfamiliar with the double theory please check out the timeline of the alleged hijackers
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewf...
(starting with the summary of the results).
People already familiar with it certainly are aware of the fact that one event where most certainly doubles have been at work is Atta and Al Shehhi drinking on September 7, 2001 in Shuckums (Hollywood, FL) as it is basically impossible that Atta could have caught his flight to Baltimore that he officially took.
Now the exhibits contain also highly interesting chronolgies on the alleged hijackers.
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exh...
Open the one on Atta (OG00020.02 at the bottom of the page)
Here you find now
On Sep 7 a wire transfer from Al Shehhi's and Atta's account happened on Sep 7 at 15:58 in Fort Lauderdale.
This pushes the beginning of the drinking in Hollywood to later than 4.15 p.m. or somehow the alleged hijackers interrupted their session.
Now open the file on Al Shhehi (open OG00020.01 at the bottom of the list). Here you find:
Al Shehhi made on Sep 7 at 16:56 in Deerfield Beach an ATM withdrawal fom Saeed Al Ghamdi's account and was taken on video.
At the very same time he's drinking at Shuckums in Hollywood.

Atta took as officially stated in the already mentioned chronology on Atta he did take Flight 2719 from Fort Lauderdale to Baltimore on September 7, 2001. According to the BTS the plane was scheduled for 3:15 p.m.
Therefore Atta is on a flight to Baltimore while he is still witnessed drinking at Shuckums for hours....!

The drinking in Shuckums has been witnessed and widely reported:
How do you reconcile the presence of Atta and Al Shehhi at the same time of the drinking somewhere else.

Further info here:
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewt...
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. The Moussaoui document dump...
... certainly does contain some evidence that supports doubles. I'd already noticed some of what you wrote, but not all of it - I must be getting old. I can't see how Atta could have been in Shuckums on the Friday. The only way round this would be to claim that Atta (and Al Shehhi?) wasn't there and the barstaff are mistaken, but I'm not sure if I want to go down that road.

Also:
(1) To whom in Saudi Arabia did they send USD 200?
(2) I want that video - where's my FOIA request generator!
(3) Have you checked out the time for his flight from Baltimore to Boston on the Sunday - it arrived after American 11 left?
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Happy that we agree on that!
:)

I just checked the BTS.
In the chronolgy it is stated that he took US Air flight 2979.
There is only a US Air flight 2969 for September 9.
It arrived at 7:22 p.m.
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Eh?
When I looked it said US Air flight 2979 arrived at Logan from BWI at 8:52 on 9 September 2001. Try again and see what you get.

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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Checked again
I looked for actual arrival time
US (Abbreviation for US Airways)
BWI to BOS on September 9, 2001.
I've no flight 2979 nor any arrival time of 8:52.
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. This is bizarre
OK, this is how I do it. I go here:
http://www.bts.gov/xml/ontimesummarystatistics/src/dsta...

I click on "arrivals" in detailed statistics.
I select "actual arrival time".
I select "Boston, MA - Logan International (BOS)" as the destination airport.
I select "US Airways (US)" as the airline.
I select "Sep", "9" and "2001" and then click on "submit".

About 2/3 of the way down I find this:
"US 09/09/2001 2979 N252AU BWI 08:52"

How do you do it?
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Stupid me
I inversed BWI and BOS (as daparture and destination) ....!
My bad.
I counterchecked. The September 7 flight 2719 indeed took off at 3:15.
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. It's OK
btw, in the True Name Usage chart is says the Mitsubishi Mirage was rented on 5 September by Wail Al Shehri, so Woodyb was right about that.
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. send this to what is left of the 9/11 commission
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Answer to question (1)
At 3:50 on the Friday before the attacks Al Shehhi wired USD 200 from his account in Florida to Al Omari's account in Saudi (in Buraidah, where Al Omari went to university). The transfer cost him USD 50 plus correspondent bank charges. How odd. Why would he do that?

Link:
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exh...
See pages 9-12.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. How can you be
LIHOP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

in view of the proof that doubles had been at work?
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KJF Donating Member (792 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. For example
Maybe the doubles were from by Al Qaeda and the hijackers were swapping identities.

Maybe it's a whole lot wierder than we suspect now.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. This is hardly possible
Al Qaeda has neither the interest (why double the risk? no historical example) of using several doubles and especially they don't have the capacity to cover up the use of doubles.
On the other hand the use of doubles is standard procedure in state-sponsored terrorism.
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Artdyst Donating Member (135 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-11-06 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
7. Use of doubles is a standard M.O. for intelligence agencies. There were
Edited on Fri Aug-11-06 08:38 AM by Artdyst
two "Oswalds": Lee Harvey Oswald and Harvey Lee Oswald.

Your research is interesting, intriguing, and provides closer proof that 9/11 was an inside job. The only defense Bush apologists can possibly make is the one Mr./Ms. "KJF" trotted out: must be a mistake in identification. Not a coincidence, but just as weird.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Exactly
and welcome!
:toast:

Exactly! Doubles are a typical method of state-sponsored terror.
See my explication here that the doubles do prove that it was an inside job.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

For your possible excuse:
Al Shehhi has been witnessed in Shuckums. Identified by picture and moreover typical pleae-remember-me behaviour (especially Atta's "I'm an American Airlines pilot). At the very same time he is in Deerfield Beach and taken on video according to official chronology. His presence is proven by video and furthermore strongly implied as he used his bank account. How can this be a simple confusion?
Atta was also witnessed and identified by photo as having been in Shuckum's. Somebody else at the same time accessed his bank account and flew to Baltimore (where the official Atta was as he visited the alleged hijackers in Laurel and wired money the next day).
So again we have the one in Shuckums who is considered by everybody as the one and only Atta and we have the one taking the flight who is also considered by everybody as the one and only Atta.
I doon't see any sorry excuse that can explain the doubles away.
And you'll realize that there is not a single thread on doubles on DU where just a single OCTler challengs the theory.

Btw for further evidences of doubles see
"Tracking the alleged hijackers and their doubles".
http://www.team8plus.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewf...
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. This is the closest proof I've seen
I saw it on Team8 and was going to post it here, but I get distracted. :eyes:
I mean, I do think their pictures look different in different id's, but that
could be stolen id's , but this is good. I'm glad you guys know how to look at those documents and make something of them, as I've said before, I would not have thought to compare..
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savemefromdumbya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. 'Atta' didn't exist
patsies on the loose
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. Where are the ususal
naysayers?

And if you agree with the conclusion then doesn't this have extreme consequences for the whole 9/11 story?
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greyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Some of them are probably bored with arguing
Edited on Sun Aug-20-06 06:49 AM by greyl
with someone who has been banned from this forum.

I'm just speculating, mind you.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-02-06 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. This said by someone
who claims to be interested in facts....!
Are you interested in facts, greyl?
Well, here you go.
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TAM Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-02-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Interesting...not sure if it proves much.
Andre II:

So let me see if I get this...

The "doubles" theory is that due to inconsistencies in the Official timeline for the hijackers, and evidence from elsewhere, that doubles must be at work. The evidence that contradicts the official time line, is it from reliable, confirmed sources? If so, what are the sources (if you cannot briefly sum it up, I will travel to the linkl earlier in the post).

I'll let you know now, I am a skeptic, I consider myself a LIHOI (Let It Happen Out of Incompetence). I do not think that inconsistencies in timelins by themselves prove anything, but I am interested in what claims are being made to this effect, and what evidence there is to back it up. Doubles could easily be the existing 19 hijackers having copies of documents belonging to each other, but forged with different pictures, merely to keep their trail less traceable. I know you likely feel much different. Still it is something I will look into much deeper.

TAM
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. It proves a lot
as it is not due to inconsistancies but strong contradictions.
The evidence eg for the Shuckums drinking on 9/7 is the witness of the night manager and the waitress. It was all over the pres since 9/12 has been widely reported and the two have been right away interviewed by the FBI. Moreover Atta has been witnessed the very same eveing in Sarasota which once again is contradicting the official story (but please notice that there are witnesses as well for the official story).
If you follow the link and check out eg the summary for Atta you'll see that this is by far not the only example of him being the master of bilocation. Moreover he's not the only case of alleged hijackerrs having some sort of double.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #20
46. LIHOI! Me too!
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-02-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Andre...
You know they rarely engage the foreknowledge/hijackers/facilitation/obstruction/cover-up complex, because they are soon lost in it. Motive, means, opportunity and precedent all become abundantly clear. The people making the arguments use too much logic, evidence, and they're just too sober (look at that Paul Thompson!) The discussion tends to educate. (Thanks for your work.)

It's much easier to just go back and forth around the same old pictures of rubble and wreckage and scream at each other.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-08-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #21
42. Yes, I agree completely n/t
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Brainster Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
23. Yawn
Checking the Wikipedia page on Shuckums, there's disagreement on what date Atta and al Shehhi were there, what they did, what they drank, etc. Indeed, since whoever was there paid cash, there is no evidence that it was Atta and al Shehhi.

As for the wire transfer, I suppose it never occurred to you that bank employees probably handle wire transfers in small amounts (this one was for the grand total of $200) as part of the paperwork at the end of the day (3:58 in the afternoon).
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. You are talkin' bullshit..............
In the words of Braindead.......


"There's disagreement on what date Atta and al Shehhi were there, what they did, what they drank, etc."


If there is disagreement.....it is because key witnesses changed their bullshittin' testimony.....




9/12/01
Amos said the two men had each consumed several drinks Friday night and had given the bartender a hard time. Mohamed told Amos he was a pilot.
"The guy MOHAMED WAS DRUNK , his voice was slurred and he had a thick accent," AMOS SAID.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030224152521/http://www.nc ...


9/27/01
The owner, TONY AMOS, says Atta sat quietly by himself AND DRANK CRANBERRY JUICE and played a video game, while Al-Shehhi and the other customer tossed back mixed drinks and argued.
http://web.archive.org/web/20010927120728/http://www.la ...



Like Braindead says ....nothin to see here folks...move along........
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TAM Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Harsh and not really addressing his points...
Edited on Tue Sep-05-06 02:57 PM by TAM
Re: "Braindead" comment.

Nice insult. Did your mommy teach you that one?

Your reply only adds to the fact that the witnesses were probably lying from the start, and may never have been there, or if they were, do not help with the chronology at all...to unreliable obviously.

Nice pic. Now drag yourself out of the rabbit hole for a minute, and spit up the pill.

TAM
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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. What are you doing here, TAM?

It's not really cool to accuse somone of insulting another person and in the next sentences spit out insults by yourself.

Your reply only adds to the fact that the witnesses were probably lying from the start, and may never have been there, or if they were, do not help with the chronology at all...to unreliable obviously.

We don't need wild speculations like that, no "probably"s, no "may have"s, no "if"s. Go read some of John Doe II's stuff on team8plus.org and then come back and tell us where he has made a mistake (in case you find one - good luck). I'm waiting for you. :popcorn:

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TAM Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Who are you?
You address me as if familiar, yet I do not recognize you, unless you are woody at JREF, otherwise you are stalking me...oh wait, now I am sounding like a CTer.

wrt to your comments

1. Can't tell if you are mocking me, egging me, or legitimately annoyed with me...the tone of your post is...dry.

2. As for my comments...well I'm human, and occasionally I get weak, and cave into the "caveman" in me and reply to insults with insults...I shouldnt have...but I did...you called me on it, like I call so many on it...(ya got me ;))

As for "Probablies" and what nots, ah well..It was a comment on the reliability of the witnesses that he made, I was merely applying his standards for the witnesses (unreliable) to using them for any aspect of the CT...if they are unreliable wrt Attas Demeaner, how can you trust anything they said...

I have been to Team8plus already. We have discussed some of the inconsistencies that they have "discovered" over there. I'll get back to you when I feel informed enough on the topic in question...better get another popcorn, ther is a lot to read.

TAM
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Wrong.
Edited on Wed Sep-06-06 06:02 AM by seatnineb
Wikepedia says Time magazine said that Amos claimed that Atta was at Shuckhums on 9/8/01:


Time Magazine said that Amos had claimed it was September 8th, and that Atta had 5 screwdrivers and Marwan had 5 rum and cokes, and that Atta had argued over the bill before pulling out a wad of several hundred dollars from his wallet saying "No, I have plenty of money. I'm a pilot., and left a $3 tip.<5>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuckum\'s_Oyster_Bar


But in fact....Time magazine never directly quoted that Amos said that Atta was at Shuckhums on /9/8/01......

Time magazine just say that It was at Shuckums, on Sept. 8........there is no direct quote from Amos saying that Atta was at Shuckhums on /9/8/01...........


It was at Shuckums, on Sept. 8, that Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi did some premass murder tippling. Atta drank vodka and orange juice, while Al-Shehhi preferred rum and cokes , five drinks apiece. "They were wasted," the bartender recalled, and Atta objected to the $48 bill. Tony Amos, the manager, asked if they were short the cash. "No," said Atta. "I have plenty of money. I'm a pilot." And he hauled a wad of $50 and $100 bil ls from his pocket, eventually leaving a $3 tip.
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101010924/wplot.html


So the Wikipedia article is proceeding from a false premise.............and with it Brainster's assertion that Atta was not at Shuckhum's on /9/7/01

Take a peek down that rabbit hole.....you may learn a thing or two........
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Brainster Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Brilliant Job of Parsing That Sentence!
"It was at Shuckums, on Sept. 8, that Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi did some premass murder tippling."

You're going to tell me that doesn't say that Mohammed Atta was at Shuckums on September 8? :banghead:

Now, since we know that Atta probably wasn't at Shuckums on September 8, because he flew to Baltimore the day before, that leaves us with several possibilities:

1. The bartender and the manager are wrong about the date.
2. The bartender and the manager are lying about the whole incident.
3. The bartender and the manager were mistaken about it being Atta.
4. The CIA cleverly used doubles to.... accomplish what?
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. September 8
Once again Brainster:
If Atta would have been drinking in Shuckums the late afternoon of September 8 it simply doesn't change the problem.
He officially was in Baltimore the whole day (was witnessed there doing a transaction) and only left Baltimore the morning of September 9.

The FBI interviewed Amos and Idrissi on September 11. How probable is it that they both got the date wrong?
How probable is it that they should lie about the incident?
Atta was identified by both based on his photo and his famous phrase "I'm a pilot of American Arilines" doesn't exactly reduce the probability that he was there.
The use of double is quite common in state sponsored terrorims
frame people, leave a convenient trail of evidence that magically is found everywhere right after 9/11 etc.
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. You are doing a bad job of trying to create confusion............
Where does Tony Amos say that Atta was at Shuckhums on September the 8th ,2001........?

Any answers......quickly now.....

Cos' it sure as hell ain't in that Time magazine........like Wikipedia would have us believe..........

Amos does say however that Atta was at Shuckums on the evening of September 7th,2001......drinking his face off........

Which conflicts with this same Atta's flight to Baltimore at 3:15pm...on the same September 7th,2001
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Witnesses
Hi TAM,

do you really think the night manager and the barmaid of the Shuckums were never there on September 7???
Do you really think the FBI interviewing these two witnesses right after September 11 would never have figured out if they were lying?
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TAM Donating Member (87 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Sorry, but I...
...dont know enough at present to make fair comment. It was someone else who said the witnesses were unreliable, so I am merely stating, as many CTers say about 9/11 commission, if they are unrelable for these issues, then how can you trust them for anything they say. (As CTers claim where Commission got some elements wrong wrt to NORAD, they cannot trust them for any of the report now).

TAM
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Brainster Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-05-06 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Neither Link Worked
So I am unable to review your evidence. But assuming what you say is true, you have proven that the owner of the Oyster Bar was inconsistent on what Atta was drinking which is one of the conflicts I pointed out in my post. Thanks for the confirmation!
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Yes the witness is inconsistent................
....with regards to what he was drinking........

But he is not inconsistent with regards to what date Atta was at the bar.........

So the question still stands..........

If Atta was at Shuckhums in the evening of 9/7/01 ......how could he be on that 3:15pm flight to Baltimore...on 9/7/01......

Unless there were 2 Attas?!
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. The links were perfectly for me n/t
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-06-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Yawning?
First of all Hello and welcome to DU!

"Checking the Wikipedia page on Shuckums, there's disagreement on what date Atta and al Shehhi were there, what they did, what they drank, etc."

The qustion what they drank and what they did in Shuckums is irrelevant to the question how Atta could have been there.
There are few articles that give September 8 instead of September 7. (You can find many on John Doe'ss files) True but even without challenging the September 8 articles for good reasons as seatnineb does below it simply doesn't change the problem. Atta was in Baltimore the whole day of September 8 according to the official story. So we have the same bilocation.

"there is no evidence that it was Atta and al Shehhi."
Do you take two eyewitnesses who recognized Atta and Al Shehhi on photos that were shown to them by the FBI on September 12 as evidence?
The fact that the FBI NEVER challenged the story etc.

"As for the wire transfer ..."

The transfer isn't interesting for our problem. It's Al Shehhi being filmed on video cameras around 5 p.m. at Deerfield Beach (20 miles from Hollywood) and Atta having taken a flight at 3.15

So I really don't see any reason why you're yawning!
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Brainster Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Because You're Hanging Your Hat on Shuckums
Which is unprovable. We have folks who claim they were there, but they disagree as to who was there, on what date and what they drank. In other words, your "proof" consists of nothing more than a few witnesses who had no reason to recognize Atta before 9-11. And even if you were able to prove Atta's (or someone who looked like him) presence at the bar, you have no proof that the existence of a double means anything other than an assertion that the CIA uses doubles. Why would they use one in this case? Is there some advantage that the CIA gained by using doubles?

Hey, I'm just asking questions.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Hanging a Hat
"We have folks who claim they were there, but they disagree as to who was there"

Sorry, you still fail to present any source that indicates that there are contradictions or uncertainties about who was witnessed.
This is in the press on September 12:
"Agents showed employees at a Hollywood restaurant, Shuckums, photos of two men Tuesday night. Manager Tony Amos said he identified a man in a photo bearing the name Mohamed."
http://www.boston.com/news/daily/12/florida_search.htm

"on what date"

Not really. The story was all over the news since September 12 and all the first stories give September 7. The first account giving September 8 is from September 23. And the accounts are only a hand full. The clear majority and 100% of the accounts in the two weeks after the incident give September 7. Pretty coherent.

"and what they drank."

Not really again.
All the accounts the days after 9/11 talk of Atta drinking heavily (using direct quotes). The story magically changes since September 15. You can't deduce here that the witnesses disagree.

"And even if you were able to prove Atta's (or someone who looked like him) presence at the bar, you have no proof that the existence of a double means anything other than an assertion that the CIA uses doubles. Why would they use one in this case? Is there some advantage that the CIA gained by using doubles?"

The use of double is a common method in state sponsored terrorism.
For further thoughts on this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And btw I don't hang my hat on Shuckums only.
If you care to finally check out the timelines on the alleged hijackers on Team8+
you'll see that
there are far more indications of Atta having a double
Atta is by far not the only alleged hijacker who has the ability of bilocation.

In any case asking questions is certainly a better attitude of a critical thinker than yawning.
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spooked911 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. wouldn't it make some sense for the CIA to have an Atta double?
One that they could get to do what the "real" Atta didn't want to do?

Not to mention that the double could sow confusion very easily and lead honest investigators down false trails.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. hm....?
YES!
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seatnineb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-07-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. You are talking bullshit...
Amos's case is a classic case of altering testimony.....

On 9/12/01....Amos was adamant that Atta was drunk........



9/12/01
"The guy MOHAMED WAS DRUNK , his voice was slurred and he had a thick accent," AMOS SAID.
http://web.archive.org/web/20030224152521/http://www.nc ...



However..on 9/27/01....Amos was adamant that Atta drank Cranberry juice.....


9/27/01
The owner, TONY AMOS, says Atta sat quietly by himself AND DRANK CRANBERRY JUICE and played a video game,
http://web.archive.org/web/20010927120728/http://www.la ...


Now that is a case of one individual...Tony Amos....having a double story!....regarding an individual(Mohammed Atta)....who had a double!
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. I would guess that he was pressured
to change his story because a drunk Atta doesn't fit into the official narrative that the hijackers were religious fundamentalists.
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-31-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
43. Maybe in 2007 somebody will refute that there have been
two Attas?!

Or shall I say that El Amir and Atta are two different people ....


Ha^ppy new year btw!

:party:
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Andre II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
45. And here is another case when Atta was at two different locations at the same time
In the wake of the terror hype in Germany recently it was recalled that Atta had been driven by taxi to Ulm (and back to Hamburg) several weeks prior to 9/11. The two taxi drivers witnessed.
Only problem is that officially Atta wasn't in Germany but in the US at that moment.
Only aside is that the fanatic preacher Atta is supposed to have seen was working .... well, you know these stories don't you .... well, he was working as an informant for the German secret service.
(And of course he was the same guy that told the three suspects of the 2007 teror hype in Germany how to build bombs....)
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. fanatic preacher: name please
Source for Ulm. Please. News to me.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Ulm taxi drive, aha source
On second page of this 2006 article:

http://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/:Fall-Neu-Ulm,-...

Mostly news to me. No time to translate anything atm...
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Bolo Boffin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. And here is another case where you see the questionable witness as gospel
...and question the physical evidence with them.

As is pointed out in the discussion above.

Physical evidence trumps witness recall, especially a witness who keeps changing the story. You have 100% official proof of your own confirmation bias, and that is all ya got.
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Perry Logan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 06:59 PM
Response to Original message
51. Does anyone have some documentation for the claim that doubles are used often in intelligence work?
Edited on Mon Oct-22-07 07:02 PM by Perry Logan
It sounds like a garbling of "double agents."
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
52. ZZZzzzzz....

First off, the wire transfer is a no-brainer. I'm guessing that you don't send wire transfers very often. I do. To send a wire transfer, I send a form over to my bank. When they process the actual funds transfer is entirely up to them. The fact that a domestic wire transfer was sent at 2 minutes to 4 o'clock suggests the bank was processing a bunch at the end of the banking day. My bank, for example, will send international wire transfers up to 3 PM, and usually do it just before 3 PM, even if I request it as early as 9 AM. It seems that they queue up the requests and send them out in a batch.

But why do you believe that either person had to be present at a bank or anywhere else at the time of a wire transfer? Do you answer questions or just ask them?

The Shuckums incident gets some discussion at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuckum%27s_Oyster_Bar ). As you can see, there is widespread disagreement among media sources as to who was at the bar, on what date, and what they drank. Complicating matters is that the bar tab was paid in cash; hence there is no way of knowing if they were really even there. So to assume that it's proven that they were there from 3:00-6:00 on September 7 is a leap of faith.


12 hours after the attacks, FBI agents showed up at the bar, and passed around two photographs of middle eastern males they said had been aboard the aircraft. Amos and Idrissi both claimed to recognise Atta as having been a boisterous customer with a thick accent, who had been with two companions the previous Saturday (September 7). The companions were later thought to have been Marwan al-Shehhi and Abdulaziz al-Omari, the two hijackers that Atta seemed most friendly towards.

Amos' stories would later conflict, there were reports that he remembered Atta drinking Stolichnaya vodka, heavily drunk and cursing "Fuck God!" in Arabic, or that he had been mild-mannered, quietly playing arcade games on the other side of the restaurant while the other two spoke.

The Miami Herald was the first media source to note the story of the hijackers having eaten at Shuckum's, after the FBI visited the restaurant only hours after the attacks. It reported that Amos had only been able to identify Atta, and neither of his companions.<1>

The Los Angeles Times said that Amos reported Atta had drinken only Cranberry juice while playing arcade games, and only the other two companions had been drinking.

The Daily Telegraph reported that it was September 7, and that Amos reported both a waitress and a bartender identifying Atta and Marwan from passport photographs provided by the FBI, and said they were "heavy drinkers", and that Atta had disputed the $48 bill before retorting Of course I can pay the bill, I'm an airline pilot.<2>

The Palm Beach Post didn't provide a date, but said that the men entered the restaurant already drunk, and that Idrissi had initially directed the men to a Chinese restaurant, but they returned to Shuckum's and Amos reported having argued with Atta over the bill, before Atta told Idrissi I'm a pilot for American Airlines and I can pay my bill, before handing him a $100 bill, and leaving a $3 tip.<3>

The Australian ABC ran a video interview of Amos by Liz Jackson, in which Amos was quoted as saying that Atta had not been drinking at all, and wasn't even sitting with Marwan and the other man, although he would occasionally walk over to their table to whisper something in their ear. He was reportedly at the other end of the restaurant, playing arcade games for 4 hours.

The Washington Post reported that Amos had told them Atta and Marwan had been arguing, and while Marwan was visibly upset, Atta went and played arcade versions of Blackjack and Trivial Pursuit in the bar. Amos also specified that it was Captain Morgan Rum that Marwan had been drinking.<4>

Newsweek did not report a date, but said that Atta and two companions had been drinking heavily at Shuckum's, and that one of the group members shouted an Arabic curse translating to "Fuck God", and one of the group members told the waitress that 'I work for American Airlines. Im a pilot,what makes you think Id have a problem paying the bill?

Time Magazine said that Amos had claimed it was September 8, and that Atta had 5 screwdrivers and Marwan had 5 rum and cokes, and that Atta had argued over the bill before pulling out a wad of several hundred dollars from his wallet saying "No, I have plenty of money. I'm a pilot., and left a $3 tip.<5>

The Guardian reported that it was on the 7th, and that it was not Atta who had gone off to play arcade games, but the third unidentified man. Atta and Marwan drank their alcoholic drinks, and that Atta argued with Amos about the amount of the bill, before screaming You think I can't pay my bill? I am a pilot for American Airlines. I can pay my fucking bill. Agreeing with the story of a large wad of bills, the Guardian reported only a $2 tip.<6>

While the reports differ, the most common seems to be that Atta and his two companions had been at the restaurant from 3-6pm on September 7. The media varyingly reported Shuckums as being a restaurant, a sports bar or even a strip club.


So which press report do you consider to be the one which conflicts with the ATM withdrawal?

And, for those unaware, Hollywood and Deerfield Beach are both in Broward County. Specifically where was the ATM withdrawal made? Some ATM's are privately operated, and the address may be that of the ATM machine operator, not its actual location.

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