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Haaretz Editorial: There is no right of return

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:14 AM
Original message
Haaretz Editorial: There is no right of return
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=330494&contrassID=2&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y

There is no right of return



Palestinian Authority External Affairs Minister Nabil Sha'ath chose Lebanon, an Arab state that denies the most fundamental human rights to a myriad of Palestinian refugees, as a base from which to unleash a provocative declaration regarding the right of 1948 refugees to return to Haifa. His remarks were neither a slip of the tongue nor mere historic-legal sophistry about the theoretical rights of principle held by the refugees. In a series of polished statements, the PA ministerrelated to the return ofrefugees as a practical solution - and even as aprecondition - to a final status agreement.

...Sha'ath said the right of return to "Palestinian cities in the Jewish state" is an integral part of the Arabpeace initiative, which is referred to by the road map as one of the fundamental elements ofa permanent agreement between Israel and the Palestinians. Concurrently, organizations operating refugeecamps in the territories staged a rally under Palestinian Authority patronage devoted to theslogan: "There is no alternative to a right ofreturn." Speakers berated Prof. Sari Nusseibeh,who has been recruiting support for a peaceplan proposing that refugees redeem a right ofreturn by establishing homes in a newPalestinian state erected on the West Bank andGaza Strip. They also attacked Dr. KhalilShikaki, head of the public opinion researchinstitute in Ramallah, who released acomprehensive survey showing that only aminority of refugees in Lebanon, Jordan and theterritories want to redeem a right of return toIsrael. Statements about a right of return, particularly ones made by Sha'ath, sparked vehementrebuttals not only (as would be expected) fromspokesmen for the government and the right-wingin Israel, but also from opposition chairman Shimon Peres and Meretz Knesset members YossiSarid and Ran Cohen. They emphasized that theywould adamantly oppose a peace agreement that includes a Palestinian right of return to Israel, since such a right poses a threat tothe state's identity and to the solution of two states for two peoples. The Palestinian leadership would be well advisedto take very seriously the united front in Israel that opposes a right of return. The most committed supporters of the Oslo Accords believe that a concession of refugees' right of return to Haifa can be traded fairly for a concession of Jews' right of return to Hebron.Israel, just like the PA and Arab states,should have an interest in the search for a just solution for hundreds of thousands ofstateless, disenfranchised people who live in,and outside, refugee camps. But this solutioncannot include a return of refugees to the State of Israel; instead, the return should be to the Palestinian state that will arise along side Israel. Virtually all Palestinian leaders have poorly served their own people by cultivating amongrefugees the illusion of a right of return toIsrael, rather than courageously encouragingthem to recognize that the establishment of aPalestinian state entails the relinquishing ofhopes of returning to Israeli territory. With his irresponsible remarks, Sha'ath throws dustin Palestinians' eyes, and spoils prospects of forging an agreement, even with those in Israel who believe in compromise.






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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
1. ah, so the blame is on Palestinian leadership?
Not so fast. The reason there is any illusion to the right of return is because of the racism, arrogance, and religious fanaticism in Israeli policy towards the people who were kicked off their homeland. That is what is blocking a negotiated deal here. Everyone knows that Israel's plan is to continue the ethnic cleansing and dispossession of Palestinians off their land. I don't think the Palestinian leadership is intentionally "cultivating" an "illusion", rather they are voicing the legitimate, internationally recognized right of the Palestinian people to return to the homes which they were thrown out of, and now can't go back to because of racist Israeli Apartheid.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Fantasies
The right of return is not real. It is a tale told to Palestinian children to get them to follow the Palestinian leadership. But Israel will never agree to it.

That makes it a waste of time and it is THIS fantasy that stands in the way of peace.

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Interesting that anti-Jew spin in Western supporters of PA is worse
than it is in Arab press.

It is almost like the western supporters of the PA do not want a settlement.

Meanwhile a selling of 3000 rifles by the pro-west, pro-Bush Nicaraguan government to other gov organizations in Latin America is treated as Jewish arms-brokers who worked the trade are evil!

Amazing
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vierundzwanzig Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The ROR is as much of a playing card
... as the ever-growing annexation of Palestinian property.

The only difference I see here between both sides is the moral perogative to support the oppressed.

In the end compensation will be the only answer. But the Israelis have just torn that option to shreds (see other post).
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. It is a bit more than a playing card
it is an internationally recognized right. It is the responsibility of both sides to negotiate a settlement on the issue, rather than play politics - and the onus is mostly on the side of the party that kicked the people out of their homes in the first place.

* The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (10 December 1948)

The right to return has a solid foundation in international law. Article 13(2) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) states, "Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country".

* The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

The right to return is most clearly enshrined in the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) under its provisions on the right to freedom of movement (Article 12).

* Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees (28 July 1951)

International refugee law and international human rights law mutually reinforce each other on the right to return.

* United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 (III) of 11 December 1948

11. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date,..

More: http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/return/
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Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. ah, but Resistance..
you forget that "international law is largely a bogus concept", apparently only the Jewish "right of return" is worth anything, and that xenophobic/ethnonationalistic bullshit is also apparently fine if the right flags and slogans are involved (and in the case of the latter, repeated endlessly).

One learns such interesting things down here, but I still like this forum much better than GD..
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Bogus
The next time I see "international law" evenly applied across nations will be the first time. Until I see that, it remains a bogus concept.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. No they haven't
Any compensation plan for the Palestinians should be paid for by the Arab nations which owe compensation to their Jewish victims.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. Ah, so Israel gets to massacre entire villages
of Palestinian people and steal their land by sticking a flag in the ground, yet Arab nations should compensate those victims of Israeli terrorism and aggression? Your logic is clearly lacking, muddle.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. US should pick up on it..
build every last one of those refugees from 1948 a palacial estate in the West Bank and Gaza and it wouldn't cost a fraction of what we spend trying to maintain our problematic and increasingly disobedient army garrison to the west of there.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. How about this, StandWatie ...
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 11:50 AM by Resistance
The US should set up a 'homeland' for Palestinians in occupied Iraq. We'll murder and terrorize villages of Iraqi civilians, kicking them out entirely of the land we want, set up Palestinian cities and "settlements" - and anyone who dares question our aggression and ethnic cleansing we could label them "Anti-Palestinian"
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. how about Texas?
I like that idea even better...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Deleted message
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Survival
None of your answers, just basic survival.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:16 PM
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Speaking out against racism
You seem to focus very selectively on that point. Only Israeli racism seems bad in your book. Not so the endless stream of Arab racism, terror and murder.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. A matter of perspective
That which you call Israeli racism, I deny is anything of the kind. I think every group in the world wants a homeland of some sort. The Irish did and they got it. The Basques do and they are still fighting for one. And the list goes on and on. The Jewish people have a homeland -- Israel. You seem to have a problem with that and much of our debate stems from that.

I think every nation has a right to defend itself as Israel does.

Is Israel always right? Hell no. But, in aggregate, they are more right than the forces that oppose them.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Thanks for the speech
Edited on Mon Aug-18-03 12:41 PM by Resistance
which has little to do with the topic.

Nice dream to want a homeland. (really it is, in all sincerity) But not when it comes at the expense of having to massacre villages and ethnically cleanse people who were already living there. THAT is what I have a problem with, and furthermore, what I find extraordinarily incredible is this stubborn lack of the most basic understanding of this concept.

Would you have a problem if we set up a Palestinian "homeland" in, say, Iraq, and massacred as many as necessary to take as much land as we needed to fulfill the goal? Also, would you be insulted, if in speaking out against the atrocities that were committed in order to set up this homeland, you were instead told that "You seem to have a problem with Palestinians having a homeland"? It has nothing to do with being for or against a homeland. The concept itself, as I said, is a nice dream. But you don't fulfill your dreams by murdering others.

We humans should have learned as much from the Nazis.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. Deleted message
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Dont hold your breath.
.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. What you said.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. Palestinian leadership should be blamed
Arafat is a corrupt, incompetent, arrogant fool, just like Abu Mazen.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. So what?
The corruption and incompetence of either Arafat or Abu Mazen does nothing - zero, zilch -- to disqualify the internationally recognized Palestinian right to return to the homes they were mercilessly kicked out of by the Zionists.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Zionists
Personally, I see the anti-Israel faction troop that term out all the time. Anyone who supports the continued existence of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people is a Zionist. You paint them all with the same brush.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Read some history please
Just about everyone calls the aggressor (the ones kicking Palestinians out of their homes, and terrorizing anyone who didn't leave) "Zionists" - there is no other term for them because there was no state of Israel yet, so you can't call them "Israelis". Labelling them "Jews" wouldn't be right, either. What should this group be called, in your view?

Come on muddle you're resorting to some cheap tactics now (which is fairly insulting). You can do better.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. It's cheap use of the word actually
I have always considered myself a Zionist. I support the continued existence of the homeland for the Jewish people known as Israel. If you consider that cheap, too bad.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Actually, I really was hoping for an answer.
Since you object to use of the term "Zionists" in describing the aggressor that was busy wiping out Palestinians in establishing the state of Israel, what term would you use?
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Freedom Fighters implementing UN resolutions fighting terrorists?
Not sure that would fit the spin you're trying for?

But it is an alternative for Zionist.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. works for me..
of course I think "freedom fighter" is about as much bullshit as "terrorist" 99% of the time and people really should use the words interchangably.
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Cassandra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-18-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. At the time...
they were called Palestinians.
""Zionists" - there is no other term for them because there was no state of Israel yet, so you can't call them "Israelis". Labelling them "Jews" wouldn't be right, either. What should this group be called, in your view?"
Read some history, please.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-19-03 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
34. Damn straight!
:thumbsup:
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. there is no right of return
Edited on Wed Aug-20-03 01:51 PM by Skinner
July 17, 2003 The Jerusalem Post.


The atmosphere could not have been more tranquil: a former royal castle in the rolling hills of the Taunus region near Frankfurt, hosting an annual meeting, sponsored by a German foundation, of statesmen and politicians dealing with Middle Eastern problems. Europeans and Americans, Israelis and Iranians, Egyptians and Turks, Palestinians and Tunisians rubbed shoulders.

This year there was a novelty: representatives from post-Saddam Iraq, among them an official from the Kurdish Regional Government as well as a high-ranking Shi'ite representative.

The new situation in Iraq, as well as the Middle East road map, were naturally at the center of attention, and were most knowingly addressed on the opening night by a senior German government minister, himself deeply involved in Middle Eastern affairs, with great sensitivity to Israeli as well as Palestinian concerns. The evening proceeded along the expected trajectory, until a Lebanese academic raised the issue of the right of Palestinian refugees to return to Israel.

The senior German minister listened attentively, and then said: "This is an issue with which we in Germany are familiar; may I ask my German colleagues in the audience to raise their hand if they, or their families, were refugees from Eastern Europe?"

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT
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QuietStorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
37. Right to Return must not be disregarded.

but it is Israel that chooses to do so (with US complacency). There is no Israeli reparation for the refugee problem they caused. Paletinains would be remiss if they let right to return go by the wayside. No right to return. It has never been genuinely negotiated or discussed, but instead has always just been left to remain on final status.


US just paid 15mil toward the Palestinian Refugees, Israel needs to foot some of that bill as well, yet refuses to even discuss Right to Return, easier to keep the myth alive that Refugees will only accept Right to Return to Israel Proper. It suits the RW Historians and Politicians and Generals to ignore and deny their own transfer policy, they refuse to allow Palestinians their history, they refuse to look at Palestinian claims, but instead continue to deny them -- No acknowledgement from Israel regarding right to return, no Israeli reparation. No Israeli admittance forthcoming. No peace. Can't get any simplier than that.
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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. sure
When the Egyptions, Iranians, Iraquis, Yeminis, etc pay for the Jews property and give them a right of return.
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