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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:15 AM
Original message
Jenny Tonge Sacked for Suicide bomber comments
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3421669.stm

A continuation of the earlier thread. Apparently empathy for palestinians makes you a terrorist supporter.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. yet
you hear justifications of Israeli aggression and terrorist strikes against Palestinian civilians all the time!

:shrug:
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Bozola Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yep.
Of the big problem, as usual, the innocents are the prefered targets of both sides.

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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. It was not very politic
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 10:24 AM by Jack Rabbit
I agree with those who say that understanding does not imply approval. For example, one may understand why a jealous man would kill his unfaithful lover, but one may at the same time believe that the law should throw the book at him.

A politician should choose his words carefully. If a DA said something to the effect that he understands why the murderer he is prosecuting did what he did in the above example, some people might take exception to the remark and misconstrue it as approval of spousal abuse.

Ms. Tonge did not choose her words carefully. She has paid a price for that.
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Agreed to a point
However, at what point do we condemn even when clarification is offered?

I fear that should she have said "If I was an Israeli soldier I may have shot that Palestinian in that circumstance" There would have been little or no chance of her losing her job.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. remember when Bush criticized Israel
for slamming missiles into crowds of civilians?

Democrats went to bat in favor of the Israeli aggression, and slammed Bush for daring to question Israel's war tactics! I remember Nancy Pelosi led that little justification campaign.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
35. Response to Spentastic
For this person the marine of error is set low. She was a member of the LibDem shadow cabinet.

It's one thing to express sympathy for the Palestinian cause in the abstract. If that's all she had done, she would be in no trouble. However, she said something to the effect that she could envision herself as a terrorist. That was where she went too far.

I fear that should she have said "If I was an Israeli soldier I may have shot that Palestinian in that circumstance" There would have been little or no chance of her losing her job.

To what circumstance are you referring? Just in general? Just shoot Palestinians because one covets the land on which they live? That, too, would have drawn a harsh rebuke.

On the other hand, if one were to lay a specific case at hand, such as being on patrol, having just been fired at and then shooting at a child with a rock or a piece of bread because one might mistake it for a grenade, then that might be a situation where one might shoot a Palestinian. It would be a tragic mistake, but one that can be understood.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. She did choose her words carefully
I've yet to see any interpretation of her words that shows she is "justifying", showing "sympathy" or giving the "green light" to suicide bombers, just three of the fanciful charges bandied about.

The real interesting thing is that the usual conservative suspects in Britain won't be leaping to her defense and crying "political correctness", and "free speech", which is what they do every time one of them is condemned not just for understanding terrorism, but literally advocating it. :eyes:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. She did not choose her words carefully

I've yet to see any interpretation of her words that shows she is "justifying", showing "sympathy" or giving the "green light" to suicide bombers, just three of the fanciful charges bandied about.

Nevertheless, she did envision herself as a suicide bomber under certain circumstances. If she had chosen her words carefully, she wouldn't have said that. She should not have said that.
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tinnypriv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. Why not?
Explain the difference between her comments and Barak's?

I consider Barak's legitimate political discourse. Same in this case.
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RUexperienced Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
4. "I would have killed Martin Luther King"
If any American politician had said that about MLK, JFK or RFK, they should be recalled, impeached, hog-tied, tarred, feathered and executed for the rest of their lives.

And nobody on this board would argue the fact that the politician was supporting violence and assassination.

In the same way, this PM's remarks were clearly supporting the terrorists.
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el_gato Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. if your family had been murdered and your home bulldozed

you might be a little extreme in your retaliation as well

the use of the term "terrorist" is very selective and loaded

as far as I'm concerned the IDF is just as much a terrorist organization

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
kalian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
42. IDF="legitimate" terrorist force then....
seriously, the Palestinians don't even HAVE an army...and their
"police force" is a joke. So, how could they stand and fight
against the IDF?
I'm curious...how come when Israeli soldiers are attacked by a
suicide bomber its termed a "terrorist" attack? :eyes: I always get
a chuckle out of that. IMHO...its a legitimate target. While the
methods are rather crude, what's the difference than a laser guided
bomb blowing up a building with Palestinian civilians in order
to get one "bad terrorist head master" :shrug:

Its WHO controls the media that makes ALL the difference.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Er?
Is this just tenuous or is it in fact nonsense?

In reality I could fully understand a politician understanding why MLK was shot. Would that mean they condoned it? Of course not.
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RUexperienced Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. She never said
she "understood" the terrorists. She said she would have considered becoming one.

Big difference.

Liberals and conservatives can all "understand" why MLK was shot. But if someone stood up and said "I would have considered killing him myself" is totally different, and much more extreme.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Not exactly.
From the article on a previous thread

"Speaking eight days after a Palestinian woman killed four Israelis at a Gaza Strip border crossing, Jenny Tonge said she understood attackers' "desperation."
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RUexperienced Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. You are wrong. Here is her quote from the BBC:


"She was speaking to a pro-Palestinian lobby when she said of Palestinian suicide bombers: "If I had to live in that situation - and I say that advisedly - I might just consider becoming one myself."
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. hey it's better than Nancy Pelosi and others
Edited on Fri Jan-23-04 11:17 AM by Resistance
who outright support Israeli terror strikes on Palestinian civilians. Pelosi doesn't even say "I might consider" it.

(edited to add: ) I happen to like Pelosi for the most part; but her and other Democrats' justifying and excusing the terrorism of the Israeli military I strongly condemn.
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Spentastic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Er
So is this not the same as a politician saying

"If I was a right wing racist maniac I may have considered killing MLK"

Would that be condoning it?
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
45. Would she have a choice?
One can envision that anyone living under those "conditions" with 24 hour a day propaganda would know who the heroes are. Being "selected" for the job, she would be left without a choice.

On the other hand, if she means that she would also have the knowledge that is available to the person outside the Palestinian areas, with a choice, and she chooses to substitute her perceived wrong for the deaths of 22 innocent people, knowing they are Innocent, and knowing that even until then she was Innocent, but chooses to end her life and theirs, one can condemn her.
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. Ridiculous analogy
A more apporpriate analogy would be claiming to 'understanding' race riots and the violence and murder that resulted. While not condoning them, it could be argued that one understood the anger, desperation, etc.

My father has always said that if he was a Palestinian he would have a mammoth 'chip on his shoulder'. Is he pre-terroritst. Of course not.

And by the way - I do 'understand' why MLK was assassinated. Does that mean I condone it? Not likely.
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RUexperienced Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. She said she would have considered being a suicide bomber herself
"She was speaking to a pro-Palestinian lobby when she said of Palestinian suicide bombers: "If I had to live in that situation - and I say that advisedly - I might just consider becoming one myself."

That is VERY different than your father having a chip on his shoulder.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. it's still no different
from American politicians justifying and excusing Israeli terror strikes against Palestinian civilians -- and you don't see American politicians being dismissed for it, do you.
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RUexperienced Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Israel does not target civilians
You and I both know that. And if an American politician supported a civilian death by the IDF going after real terrorists, that politician would pay a heavy price.

If you are so right, why aren't any of the nine Democrats saying the same thing?
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. They heck they don't.
No, Israel doesn't bomb Palestinian cafes. They probably don't have any because of the great economic decline after all.

What they do is bomb apartment buildings because a terrorist either lives there or is expected to be there. They'll use a bomb for a car, knowing that it will kill several civilians. Meanwhile, they might miss their target. They'll destroy water lines, knowing it will kill Palestinians. The Israeli government builds that fence, knowing that it's cutting many off from their agriculture and will cause mass starvation. Don't say that Israel doesn't target civilians.
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RUexperienced Donating Member (506 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. So as long as a terrorist surrounds himself with women and children
you think Israel should not try to take him or her out?

Go read Black Hawk Down and see how the "Skinny's" used women and children.

One US soldier, who had never killed anyone before, was being shot at by a Somalian with a child on his shoulders and one each side of him.

He knew that a US soldier would hesitate to shoot with the babies around.

This is the kind of people, specifically the Palestinian terrorists, we are dealing with.

They will hide in apartments with women and children so the IDF won't shoot.

But there gets to be a time when you have to and I don't blame Israel. They are a lot more patient than I would be.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. Then it's okay to kill women and children, right?
I guess so.

I can think of some ones who terrorize the Arabs who surround themselves with women and children. Using your logic, it would be okay to murder them too. That's using your logic though.

Oh, and I hardly listen to propoganda films like Black Hawk Down.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. frightening
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Yes, Israeli troops do target civilians
It is ludicrous to ask anyone to believe that the thousands of Palestinian deaths that have occured since Sharon came to power are all the result of accidents.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #36
41. bullshit
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. LOL!
"The Israelis avoid civilian casualties as much as the US does."

That's not saying much at all. The US is pretty darn careless with life when they go on a bombing spree.

But I will say that Israel is more careful to avoid civilian casulties than the US (since Israel killed over a thousand Palestinians in two or three years like the US killed about four thousand people of Afghanistan in just a few months). Will that due? That still isn't saying much though, since both countries do target civilians in the way that I talk about.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
50. All the result of accident
I don't think I've ever heard that claim.
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. oh
Edited on Sun Jan-25-04 10:10 PM by Resistance
so you finally admit that the IDF does intentionally target innocent civilians?
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lefty_mcduff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. 'If she had to live in that situation'.
Obviously she was trying to say she 'undertands' the desperation of the Palestinians (which I also do). I also took the quote from a Haaretz article and pasted it for reference. They believe this is what she was trying to say. So do I.

As I wrote in another post she went off the scale in vocalizing that sentement (and has been sacked for it - which I tend to agree with. If nothing else, as a professional politico she showed enormous lack of judgement).

Referencing my father's comments only served to illustrate that many people attempt to place themselves in any given situation to understand it (ie: what would 'I' do) as this woman obviously did. It does not mean that they condone violence. They may, however, understand what leads to it (which, BTW, is the crux of the I/P conflict). The IDF use the same 'what would you do?' argument to excuse their mistakes.

I'm trying to explain myself here - perhaps failing to do so.
For that, I apologize.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
17. Sounds like
The lady has been taking spin lessons from Ari Fleisher.

For everyone who gets their nuts or tits hung up in a wringer when some radical settler loony mouths off, guess what, loonies come in all flavors and shapes. The "re-defining" here is worthy of enshrinement in the Ari Fleisher Hall of Shame.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
23. What if??
Somebody said

"I would consider joining IDF myself if I was living in Israel, because they're feeling desperate to stop terrorism".

Wouldn't that hurt the senstivities of Palestinians who had lost their children to IDFers?

Of course, there's only one side considered to be important enough to consider.
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dudeness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
26. in the interests of balance
Anger at Kilroy 'anti-Arab rant'


Mr Kilroy-Silk presents a daytime television show
Muslim leaders have accused Robert Kilroy-Silk of "anti-Arab and anti-Muslim views" after a newspaper piece entitled "We Owe the Arabs Nothing".
The Muslim Council of Britain denounced the BBC discussion show presenter's piece as a "gratuitous anti-Arab rant".

In the Sunday Express piece, the former Labour MP referred to Arabs as "suicide bombers, limb-amputators, women repressors".

The Commission for Racial Equality has also reported the matter to the police.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3376633.stm

Robert Kilroy-Silk statement in full

Robert Kilroy-Silk is to step down as presenter of his daily topical discussion programme after 17 years in the role. The BBC released the following statements from Mr Kilroy-Silk and Jana Bennett, BBC Director of Television. Announcing his decision, Robert Kilroy-Silk said:

I believe this is the right moment to leave the programme and concentrate my energies in other directions.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3404763.stm
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. Ehud Barak said essentially the same thing
he said if he'd been born Palestinian, he would have become a terrorist.

why do some people seem to have an allergy to the truth?
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Resistance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I believe Sharon has made similar comments in his past.
The propaganda campaign is alot fiercer these days, though.
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. If Sharon, and Barak, have made
similar comments in the past, how come Ms Tonge was sacked for saying the same thing? It's a strange world we live in.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #28
48. Due to
the "propaganda" suicide bombings, no doubt killing more than 400 innocent civilians in 36 months.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-04 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Or several thousand
by the other side (IDF)...
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
31. What it basically says
is that for mainstream public discourse certain areas are off-limits.

It's an exageration but the basic message is that 'Palestinian's are terrorists and that is all you need to know'. Any discussion of 'Why' is a sack-able offence.

A rather large dicussion of 'Why' would be one of my main demands after the land issue if I was a Palestinian.

So it would seem to be the case that 'the west' has not very much interest in solving the I/P issue, which I shouldn't think is news to many people here.

I was looking at the Lib Dems as somebody to vote for, they are now off the list, as much for their gutless, sheep after crowd behaviour, as anything else. I am now a non-voting british person.
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GabysPoppy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
32.  Maybe, just maybe
the Democrat party doesn't agree with your views.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-23-04 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. To quote a famous Palestinian historian again
"The Palestinian's are not the first people in history to have their land taken from them, but they are the first to be morally condemned for their reaction to it", so if I was a Palestinian the 'Why issue' is probably almost as important as the 'land issue'.

If I can look across the negiotiating table and see that any discussion of the 'Why issue' is verbotten, then there is not much point me being there.
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legin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #33
43. The problem being of course
that in wanting to deal with the 'Why Issue' I am being totally impractical. No nation holds their hands up to national disgrace, the Indian Mutiny gets scrubbed from british history books, the rape of Nanking from Japanese. It is really only the Germans who have publicly atoned for Hitler.

We are basically the accomplices of israel in the rape of the Palestinian people and israel knows this. It knows that 'the west' will have to take too big a hit in national prestige and in the inner belief of the rightness and goodness that the populations of these countries have in themselves. This especially applies to the u.s. who are at this moment embarking on their 'moral crusade' to spread 'freedom and democracy' around the world, the last thing the u.s. is going to do at the moment is admit that "well we might have actually screwed up quite badly on the I/P issue."

Israel knows it can do what it likes because it knows that whether we like it or not, we are locked into the process. Israel can push for the total defeat of the Palestinians and also the Arab world because it is the only solution that gets us off the hook too.

The crime that Jenny Tonge is guilty of, is not supporting terrorism, it's the rather 'treasonous' attempt to deface the 'heroic and moral' self-image that people in britain have about themselves.
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-04 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
44. Related thread

British MP: I understand desperation of suicide bombers

Please click here.
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