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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 08:06 AM
Original message
Red-Green Anti-Semitism
Edited on Tue Dec-16-03 08:08 AM by drdon326

http://techcentralstation.com/121503A.html

Ancient anti-Semitism is still alive in Europe. The recent declarations of German General Reinhard Gunzel and German Parliamentarian Martin Hohmann demonstrate this clearly. Hohman called the Jews "a nation of perpetrators responsible for millions of murders in the name of socialism and Bolshevism" because Marx, Trotsky, Kamenev and Zinoviev were Jewish. Never mind that Lenin and Stalin were not Jewish and murdered thousands of Jewish communists.

This old anti-Semitism from the Right is progressively disappearing. The new anti-Semitism comes from the Left. Eerily echoing the voice of the defunct Soviet Union, anti-Israelism today is the most powerful modern vector of anti-Semitism. Since World War II, anti-Semites have attacked the Jewish state as a substitute for the Jewish people. One may notice that intellectuals from the Left who propagate anti-Israelism and political correctness are often Jewish themselves. But the overwhelming numbers of anti-Semitic acts in Europe are of Arab-Muslim immigrant origin.


To avoid debate on these facts, as the EU is doing, is counterproductive. On 19 November, one French Jewish disc jockey was murdered by an Arab Muslim. The murderer was proud of "having eliminated one Jewish scum from the earth." To prevent any debate, French authorities said the Arab was "psychologically disturbed." Maybe. But are other crimes from "less psychologically disturbed" Muslims needed before Muslims and the Left are called to task?

Being a leftist, an immigrant, an Arab and/or a Muslim does not automatically put one on the side of the angels. One has the right to question Leftists and Muslims on their anti-Semitism. European and Muslim media should stop characterizing Israel as a Nazi state. This is not only a question of justice. It is a necessity if one doesn't want the new anti-Semitism to spread and the worst to come.

....................................................................

edit for clarity.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Anti-Semitism in Europe
Don

Didn't you know it's NOT a problem. I've been told that repeatedly.
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. ...
Edited on Tue Dec-16-03 08:37 AM by Kellanved
He manages to describe red/green anti-semitism without finding one single example for it. :shrug:

I've yet to see a "political-correct" anti-Israel bias . Don't get me wrong - I've heard anti-Israel remarks (not so much from Greens or moderate reds, as from the extreme left and the whole right), they are not considered politically correct. Nor is there a "left" bias in the media - quite the contrary.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. Criticism of Israel isn't the same thing as antisemitism.
Are you really saying that no matter how many Palestinians the state of Israel kills and dispossesses, any complaint about that from anybody is antisemitism? Boy, talk about trying to win your argument by defining the terms!
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. In case it is too hard to understand
Let's go through it again. One More Time. S L O W L Y.

Nobody, is saying criticism of Israeli Goverment actions or policies is, in itself, anti-Semitism.

Nobody.

Not anybody here.

Not the ADL.

Not Alan Dershowitz.

Not the Likud Party.

Not Sharon.

Nobody.




Now that we've got that covered. Anti-Semitism DOES exist. Anti-Semitic incidents in Europe are at their highest point in 50 years. Anti-Semitic incidents in the US are higher now than in decades. And, NO, that is not counting criticism of Israeli Government policies or actions as Anti-Semitism.

Liberals are opposed to racism. That's a truism of our cause.

The problem is that some, with legitimate criticism of Israeli Government policies and actions, have both gotten themselves some very racist bedfellows and some have given those same racist bedfellows carte blanche because their views overlap on some legitimate areas of debate.

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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Highest point in 50 years?!?
LOL, sorry for not taking such claims seriously. Cause it's BS frankly...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Every group
Every group that tracks these incidents agrees.

Every academic and agency study done on the subject agrees.

If you have contradictory studies, please present them.

If not, stop passing off your wishes as facts and presenting ignorant opinions as documentation.

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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm ignorant?
Haha...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. A claim
you could easily counter by presenting some documentation to back up your claims.

Please. Feel free.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. You first.
You're the one making the claim - that anti-semitism is at its highest point in fifty years. I've seen nothing in this string to back that up. The same with your claim about critics of Israel jumping into bed with loathesome anti-semites and giving them "carte blanche." Surely there are some facts in there somewhere that you'd like to share with us.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Exactly
...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. There have been
repeated examples of studies already posted on this forum over the last month. For example, the text of the censored EU study. The ADL studies.

Please, it's rather disingenuous to claim ignorance of studies you've no doubt both seen and commented on.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Studies
that have proven that anti-semitism is at it's highest point in 50 years as you yourself claimed? Or just studies that didn't say that?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Actually he's right, in the sense
that such studies making such claims have been
posted here. I haven't decided how much credence I
give to them. There certainly is a problem, but I'm not
at all sure how to compare it to the situation in the past.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thank you
It is certainly fair, as you have done, to question a study or even multiple studies

To claim they are definitionally "bs" with no evidence as bluesoul did is not a fair treatment but just empty rhetoric with no facts nor thought.


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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I saw the study
The BS I was talking about is the supposed high point of anti-semitism in the last 50 years. Haven't seen an argumented claim about such theories in those studies. Those are only your conclusions... Unless you're implying it's Hitler revisited in Europe. Excuse me for calling such claims bluff..
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Perhaps you need to do some basic math
50 years ago was December 1953.

Hitler had been dead for over 8 years as had the Nazi regime.

Perhaps you know of a time of higher anti-Semitism in Europe since 1953 but nobody else seems able to.

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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Nobody else?
LOL, aside from you I could bet there are a lot of people that would disagree. Including those of us that ACTUALLY live in Europe...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Frightening...
of course , the ones perpetuating the anti-semitism in europe
WOULD deny there is anti-semitism. :eyes:

Unfortunately, the truth speaks otherwise....and so does the article.

btw...you did read it, didnt you??
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. I am perpetuating?
OK...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Twisting the night a-waaay
did i say that?? Please dont twist my words.
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Ah
So you've studied anti-Semitism over an entire continent? I'd love to see your credentials. They must be very impressive since you can off-hand dismiss studies by actual researchers over multiple nations.

On the other hand, you thought Hitler was still in power 50 years ago. Forgive me if I want better documentation than your personal observations before I throw out the work of multiple scholars and researchers.

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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I didn't say that Hitler was in power 50 years ago
I just responded to your generalizing claims of how it's supposed to be the high point of anti-semitism in the last 50 years (after the war there still was many of it) which is a ridiculous claim that no study I know could confirm. Not even the ones you posted said that. Those were YOUR words and conclusions only.. End of it...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. See post 15
Where you said that saying that anti-Semitism was at its worst in Europe in 50 years was ludicrous unless I thought Hitler was revisiting Europe.

Of course, even leaving that arithmetic error of not knowing the difference between 50 and 60, you stil have NO basis to disagree with multiple studies that say quite clearly that anti-Semitism in Europe is worse than it has been since (and I'll do the math for you) 1953.

Or, can you cite a time from 1953 until now when it was worse? If so, please do so. If not, admit it.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No it's up to YOU to prove that!
You're the one making the claim! Show me results of two comparable studies from 50 years ago then I'll believe you. Until then...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Right. You can't prove it
But you're happy to call actual studies "bs" based on your personal observations and wishes. Perhaps you could actually read the studies. If so, you'd see that they back up my statements.

I realise that the EU study is long and has big words and the ADL studies require actually reading multiple studies over multiple years but I have faith that you can do it.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. You're the one to prove it
not me. You made the claims. Now let's see those conclusion, exactly as you said (worst in 50 years as far as anti-semitism is concerned) Put it up, or you're bluffing..
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I've cited my sources
Cite yours. Or admit you don't have anything to back up your claim that this study is "bs".
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Living in Europe is my back up
You have only your words, not studies claiming what you claim. If you said that to a random Jew living in Europe that it's worse then it ever was for them since WW2, he would laugh. Rightly so..
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Ah
So your personal observation of your town is equal to 50 years of studies...

Sure.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Still waiting for those results claiming
it's the worse in 50 years. Put up or shut up...
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. bluesoul...
if you get confused, here's a link to get you started:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/J...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
35. One persons' experience
An individual cannot possibly have the scope and comprehensive data as a study based on surveys that are taken of random samples distributed over a population scientificly. The methodology of the survey is not in question, only its conclusions which seem frightening to many. That is why it was suppressed.


Living in Europe, therefore cannot give your experience any more weight than any other person living in Europe.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Oh so those that live in Israel can say
they know more then others about daily life and misery more then any outsiders, yet when it has to do with Europeans and their daily lives and experience, that doesn't matter? You know more then I do about it I guess. OK...
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MikeGalos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. One Israeli's personal view
would not, with no other evidence and no other expertise, nullify multiple multi-year, multi-nation studies.

Of course, if you are claiming some special expertise, so be it. Otherwise, I'm sure you'll accept every view I have on anything related to the US, it's policies, it's government, it's people and their views even if they disagreed with every other study done and every other person in the US.

I'm sure, by the way, that all of Europe is glad to know that you speak for them.
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. And I am sure Israel is glad
to know you speak for them as well...
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Daily life, yes
That is not the same as having the knowedge to refute a survey. I haven't done that, and many surveys taken in Israel have been presented here over the past year.

The section on "Recommendations" of the EU survey says:

The upsurge of anti-Semitic criminal offences and verbal assaults against Jewish citizens and institutions, but also against Muslims, indicates that joint action has to be initiated. This action should not be restricted to one area of society, but has to deal with a multitude of combined activities. Actions on the political level should be backed by sound data and information about the phenomena in question. The civil society has to be mobilized to establish dialogues, the press, TV and the Internet has to be addressed to report about ethnic and cultural groups in a responsible way. Also for large-scale sporting events, preventive measures fighting racist attacks have to be implemented.

We recommend that the EUMC requests state authorities to acknowledge at the highest level the extraordinary dangers posed by anti-Semitic violence in the European context.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/J...

Can you specify another time in the past 50 years that anti-Semitism or racism was an issue of major concern in Europe? (If you are more than 50 years old, your experience may count). The racism in the Balkens may be one exception, but that is not spread over the entire continent.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. My pleasure.
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Gimel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. the deaths of innocents
According to unofficial counts (unverified by any standard) Palestinina innocent deaths are somewhat higher than Israeli non-combatant deaths. Compaint about innocent deaths should be balanced. Finding the cure is combating the dis-information as well.
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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. What are you talking about?
The Palestinian "terrorists" are almost universally condemned. The United States is presently engaged in a "war against terrorism." The accusation that Saddam Hussein was a "terrorist" rests entirely on his support for the Palestinians. So how is it unbalanced to say that the Israeli government should stop indiscriminately killing and dispossessing Palestinians as well?
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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
40. but being a Jew puts one automatically 'on the side of the angels'

basehead logic, but I like these bits

"One may notice that intellectuals from the Left who propagate anti-Israelism and political correctness are often Jewish themselves. But the overwhelming numbers of anti-Semitic acts in Europe are of Arab-Muslim immigrant origin."

If you're a Jew it's not practicing anti-semitism, it's anti-isrealism and political correctness.

The funny thing is, this fella is trying to rationalize his own stereotyed sense of himslef and of his religion. Somehow being a Jew and on the right could not wash. It's like chickens voting for col. sanders or blacks voting republican. But now "This old anti-Semitism from the Right is progressively disappearing. The new anti-Semitism comes from the Left.". Now it's OK to be on the right and a Jew. And here is why.

Actually this piece is a diatribe against 'immigrants' and is a right wing point of view. Don may want to select the last paragraphs and prop this up as a piece on European anti-semitism. Its nothing more than right wing drivel on brown immigrants.

"European politicians also have trouble admitting that it is bolstered by the steady and uncontrolled immigration of Muslims since the 1960s and the spreading of Radical Islam by and among immigrants. This is another result of political correctness which impeaches any criticism of the sources of anti-Semitism. Being the result of political correctness linked to leftist bias of the media, the new anti-Semitism may also be qualified as Red."

See its the liberal media and the 'reds'. Ya, this is a liberal minded fellow

"Contemporary political correctness defines any limits on immigration as racism. Any political leader, intellectual or "normal" citizen, who suggests that immigration should be controlled through the application of law or who advocates repatriation of illegal immigrants is denounced as a racist. It is sometimes even considered outrageous to suggest that immigrants should obey the laws of their host country. "We cannot obey this law because it is incompatible with the Koran" is a claim heard more and more often from Muslims. "Native Europeans" often seem ready to abandon their principles to avoid conflict."

"Any criticism of the culture of any immigrant is also viewed as racist. The only permissible criticism seems to be that which is directed against Western civilization. Bad Westerners are portrayed as the only violent colonizers and evil invaders of all history."

See it's the muslim culture that's the problem.

postcards from the edge or rationaizations from the Jewish right....

B
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bluesoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. And yet
we still have to put up with this RW drivel here at DU. Oh my...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-16-03 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Deleted message
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