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If Settlements Are Only 1.1 Percent of West Bank, How Are They an Obstacle to Peace?

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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:36 PM
Original message
If Settlements Are Only 1.1 Percent of West Bank, How Are They an Obstacle to Peace?
In an interview with Charlie Rose this week, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the Palestinians refusal to negotiate unless Israel freezes settlement construction is unjustified, because their claim settlements are stealing the land needed for a Palestinian state is pure propaganda. How so? Because after 44 years, the whole Jewish settlement in the whole West Bank together doesnt cover even two percent of the area.

So if settlements cover only 1.1 percent of the West Bank, why does the entire West deem them the main obstacle to peace? Because admitting that settlements arent the main obstacle to peace would force it to confront an unpalatable truth: that the real obstacle to peace is Palestinian unwillingness to accept a Jewish state in any borders.

Its not that evidence of this has ever been lacking. In July, for instance, a poll found that 66 percent of Palestinians view the two-state solution as a mere stepping-stone to Israels eradication. Last month, a whopping 89.8 percent of Palestinian respondents in another poll said they opposed waiving the right of return their demand to eradicate the Jewish state demographically by flooding it with five million descendants of refugees even if no peace deal would be concluded. Translation: If getting a state of their own means giving up their goal of destroying the Jewish one, theyd rather keep living under the brutal Israeli occupation.

But you dont need to read the polls; Palestinian negotiating tactics also demonstrate their utter disinterest in reaching a deal. In a lecture last month, George Mitchell, the Obama administrations former envoy to the peace process, described what happened when Israel declared a 10-month moratorium on settlement construction in November 2009:

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/11/17/settlements-obstacle-to-peace/
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. Israeli settlements control 42% of the West Bank, according to a Haaretz report
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 09:49 PM by leveymg
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/rights-group-israeli-settlements-control-42-percent-of-west-bank-1.300303

* Published 07:33 06.07.10
* Latest update 07:33 06.07.10

Rights group: Israeli settlements control 42 percent of West Bank
Aerial photographs show that 21 per cent of the settlements' built up areas lie on private Palestinian land.
By Chaim Levinson and DPA

Israeli settlers and their organizations control some 42 percent of West Bank land, even though the settlements' built-up area is just one per cent of the territory, the Israel B'tselem Human Rights Organization said in a report released Tuesday.

Even though some 66 percent of the settlements' built-up areas are defined as being on "state land," B'tselem found that "allocation of this land for settlements was only possible through a manipulative interpretation of all relevant laws in force in the West Bank."
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Typical print the story first before the facts are out.
Funny, you seldom read the correction no matter how outrageous the claim.


    Peace Now, an Israeli NGO, initially claimed that 86.4% of Ma'ale Adumim was privately owned Palestinian land, basing the figure on data leaked from a government report. After Peace Now petitioned the Israeli courts to have the official data released, the group revised the figure to 0.5%.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma'ale_Adumim
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's too obscure. You need to define how much "Ma'ale Adumim" is of the total Palestinian land
Get your reporting skills in shape, VM. Good luck.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Citing a year old article that has been repudiated by more accurate satelite imagery is not obscure
1.1% is the most recent, verifiable figure out there.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Wow, "satellite imagery". Well, that saves your argument.
Try something else, like explaining your earlier comment. Or, are you just randomly sampling new reports until you get the right combination of vowels?
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Asked and answered
you posted an obsolete article with inaccurate data to refute the facts on the ground.

    Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, an arab leader in 1937 stated "There is no such country ! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.


Maybe we should stick with that fact?
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You call a '37 quote from some guy in Syria a fact about Israeli occupation of Palestine in 2011?
Eyes roll :eyes: You're :silly:
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Exactly my point, you cite a made up stat as legitimate evidence of some "occuppation"
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Not on-point, No facts, less debating skills. Go ahead - have the last word. Bye.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. Israel controls 60% of the West Bank n/t
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. See you and raise you. But, to stay in the game, you have to link to a reliable source.
:hi:

We dan't play low down and dirty Three-card Monty, like them other fellers.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. well..........
Area Control Administration % of WB land % of WB Palestinians

A Palestinian Palestinian 17% 55%
B Israeli Palestinian 24% 41%
C Israeli Israeli 59% 4%

This page was last modified on 7 November 2011 at 02:32.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank

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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. According to the wiki-article you quote...
...only 4% of Palestinians live in areas Administered by Israel. That seems to be a pretty small number considering we're told on a daily basis that all Palestinians are occupied (including those in Gaza, where there are no Israelis).
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. sure... so what?
that's the area Israel occupies. In other words, 40% of the West Bank is under Palestinian rule. Considering that no peace treaty is in place, I think that's actually a pretty good accomplishment. It's certainly a hell of a lot more than Palestine EVER counted as sovereign land beforehand.

The 1.1% refers to the settlements, not the occupation. No one is saying that the occupation is the thing that's blocking peace progress, they're saying that it's due to the occupation. Which is only 1.1% 2.5% depending on how you organize the area geographically. Regardless, neither are such dizzying amounts of land as would justify shutting down any and all negotiations.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 03:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. No 40% is under Palesistinian civil administration while 83% is under IDF control n/t
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. if it's NO big deal maybe the Israeli thieves can just give it back nt
Edited on Sun Nov-20-11 10:33 PM by msongs
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Israeli thieves?
That the same as Shylock?
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-20-11 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. now that's a bit much
sometimes a cigar is only a cigar
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Probably a mis-translation...
... he meant to say "well-poisoners"
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 06:36 AM
Response to Original message
20. its not that difficult....
Edited on Mon Nov-21-11 06:38 AM by pelsar
the settlements are simply the symbols of the occupation, the most obvious aspect that is easy to measure, and see, but they are just a part of the problem. If it was just the settlements than the withdrawal from gaza would have brought about a change, a major change.

its really quite simple and we have history to clarify it:
when settlements are/were removed or destroyed there was no change in the PA/Hamas relationship with israel, (one could argue that in fact the gaza removal infact made things much worse)

hence its not just the settlements as the obstacle, and its simplistic to believe so..... there are a host of other factors
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-21-11 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. What are some of the other host of other factors
of which you speak?
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