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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 06:32 AM
Original message
Hamas support on the wane amid crackdowns on political dissent
Samah Ahmed is once again a prisoner of Gaza, but this time it is at the hands of Hamas not Israel.

Years of travelling relatively freely after Israel lost control of the enclave's border with Egypt came to an abrupt halt a few months ago when Ahmed's strident criticisms of Hamas caught the attention of Gaza's increasingly unpopular Islamist rulers.

Ahmed was beaten and stabbed at a political demonstration. Her brother was warned to keep her in line. Then Hamas stopped Ahmed leaving the Gaza Strip. Four times.

"I try to tell the truth and maybe the government didn't like it," she said of her blog. "Anything that is not organised by the Hamas government is viewed as against the government."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/10/hamas-support-wane?newsfeed=true
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jimmie Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like it's going to be a great country....
think of it like Iran .... with less fun.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. An election might help
I get the feeling that Hamas would suffer a resounding defeat were they to allow one to occur. This may be the main reason why they haven't done so.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Agreed!
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. With which part?
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 09:12 AM by oberliner
That an election would lead to an end to Hamas or that Hamas has been preventing them from taking place for fear of that outcome? Or both?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Both!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. I agree with both parts as well...
Though I expect by their very nature, they'd be loathe to have an election even if they were pretty confident they'd win.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. i would be very very surprised
if hamas would even have an election....when god grants you control, its not the kind of thing you want to gamble with.....besides voting is a western thing, hamas has made it pretty clear that they are not into the west.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. some changes....
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 12:26 PM by pelsar
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1104/Eyes-on-Gaza-flotilla-but-Gazan-activists-looking-at-Hamas/(page)/2

Everyone in Gaza is as angry about Israel's blockade of the strip as the Gaza flotilla activists stopped by the Israeli navy today. But a growing number of young activists see their leaders as a big part of the problem.

this is new.....blaming their leaders as being part of the problem....though it kinda ruins the narrative here that israel is to blame for their civil society, perhaps the young Palestinians know more...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
8. Palestenian feminist turns to conservative blogger...
what a surprise....a Palestinian Feminist in gaza it appears had to turn to a conservative western blogger to get her story out.....


http://pjmedia.com/phyllischesler/2009/07/08/palestinian-taliban-arrest-palestinian-feminist-government-promises-investigation/

An Interview with Asmaa Al-Ghoul

Asmaa Al-Ghoul is a Palestinian secular feminist who has written poignant, heartbreaking pieces about honor killings and womens rights in Gaza. Last month, Asmaa quit her job at Al Ayaam because her subject matter got her into trouble at work. She is also the journalist who was arrested over the weekend by Hamass morality police, ostensibly for laughing immoderately and for immodest clothing at the beach.



I believe the women's movement in gaza is a bit more advanced than the gays...but the problem remains the same...being abandoned by the west progressives to fend for themselves, in this case she went to a conservative jew to get her story out.....

Gaza needs liberal and secular people to defend liberty. For this reason, I have never wanted to leave. But after what happened, I am thinking of leaving.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Pelsar, why do you think Western Progressives abandon Palestinian feminists?
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 02:18 PM by shira
From her WIKI page, Chesler argues...

... that leftists have abandoned Western values in the name of multicultural relativism, and that this has led to an alliance with Muslim extremists, an increase in antisemitism over the past decade, and to the abandonment of Muslim women, Muslim and ex-Muslim feminists and human rights activists, and religious minorities in Muslim-majority countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Chesler#Statements_and_writings_on_Islam
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. well then I guess HRW is not 'leftist'huh? They awarded al Ghoul in 2010
ut then again Chesler's piece is older than that

The Hellman/Hammett grants aim to help writers who dare to express ideas that criticize official public policy or people in power," said Marcia Allina, Hellman/Hammett grant coordinator. "Many of the writers share a common purpose with Human Rights Watch: to protect the human rights of vulnerable people by shining a light on abuses and building public pressure to promote lasting, positive change."

Governments have used military and presidential decrees, criminal charges, and libel and sedition laws to try to silence this year's Hellman/Hammett awardees. They have been harassed, assaulted, indicted, jailed on trumped-up charges, or tortured merely for providing information from nongovernmental sources. In addition to those who are directly targeted, many others are forced to practice self-censorship.

Hellman was prompted to create the assistance program for writers by the persecution that she and her longtime companion, the novelist Dashiell Hammett, experienced during the 1950s anti-communist witch hunts in the US, when both were questioned by congressional committees about their political beliefs and affiliations. Hellman suffered professionally and had trouble finding work. Hammett spent time in prison.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

more about al Ghoul from further down in the article

Asma'a Al Ghoul (Gaza/Palestine) has worked as a journalist covering politics, art, and culture. She also writes stories, many about children and the Israeli-Palestinian war. She has received a number of awards, the first at age 18, when she won the Palestinian Youth Literature award. Her work has been translated into English, Danish, and Korean. Al Ghoul is a harsh critic of Hamas and refuses to cover her hair. She has been unable to live at the family house in Rafah because her uncle is a top member of Hamas and has threatened to kill her.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/08/04/banned-censored-harassed-and-jailed


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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. It's a question of what they support more than feminism, civil rights, etc.
Edited on Fri Nov-11-11 08:09 PM by aranthus
Obviously, these people support feminism, civil rights, etc. But is support for those things the highest value of the Left? I don't think so. Sadly, the Radical Left since Marx has been motivated by values that are anti-Western, anti-American, anti-Capitalist, and antisemitic. Radical Leftism sees Western civilization (especial Capitalism) as something evil that needs to be destroyed so that a better world can be built on the ashes. More unfortunately, those values have seeped into Progressive and Liberal discourse. I'm not speaking of individuals, so please don't take this as an insult. It isn't possible to make that kind of broad generalization about single persons, and I'm not trying to. However, I believe that the foregoing is a fairly accurate depiction of the ideology, and that's what counts. So there is a tendency on the Left to give anti-Western groups a pass on their dark side because they are fighting the greater enemy (and yes, there is a mirror image of that on the Right). It manifests as various excuses like cultural relativism, benign racism, etc., but the effect is the same. Israel is Western, pro-American, Capitalist, and Jewish, many of the things that the Left thinks need to be destroyed. Hamas may not be to the liking of many on the Left, but they are challenging something that the Left sees as even worse.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Good response. I agree. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. If your speaking of Hamas I think your either
1. relying on the past that being when Hamas was first elected and even after their take over of Gaza they did receive a fair degree of support due to the fact that were democratically elected as the majority in the Palestinian parliament, however as time has passed and Hamas true nature has been shown that 'support' has been fading but that goes quite unnoticed

or

2.artificially designed in this manner- any support for the people of Gaza who are trapped living under Hamas rule regardless of how they voted, the election that gave Hamas the majority was not held in just Gaza but in the West Bank as well, however any support save the salty tears we see here for a single feminist is reflexively denounced as support for Hamas as though everyone in Gaza is Hamas or if a Hamas member many get a bite to eat along with 50 civilians then Hamas is being supported or the 50 civilians should indeed go hungry

as to the rest the use of human or 'minority' rights in this arena as a means of delegitimizing Palestinian self determination has become Orwellian in nature and until recently the terms used in a derogatory manner to describe those that support Palestinian self determination were usually seen only in a nonprogressive arena to describe Democrats and those in this country who were against was with Iraq racial profiling for any purpose ect, but times do indeed change
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. your mixing up values....
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 04:12 AM by pelsar
use of human or 'minority' rights in this arena as a means of delegitimizing Palestinian self determination has become Orwellian in nature

one can be pro Palestenian determination and pro minority rights...what is being question is the priority....what we have clearly seen here, and i admit to being fascinated by it, is that minority rates, etc has been deemed secondary to self determination. History is not good to those, especially in the middle east where civil rights is subjugated in preference for nationalism.

this is exactly what the far right wing believes....

and this game of "arabs can't make a democracy, or racial profiling is one of those pathetic excuses when the subject is brought up......it has nothing to do with the genes of the arabs or the fact that they have brown skin, lesser than others more than some...

it has everything to do with what one values more: individual civil rights or national rights. There are too many examples of what happens when countries have a revolution without any kind of democratic base.....and its not good

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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Because...
...hating Israel is much more important that rights for women, gays, or humans in general. There are only so many protest hours in the day -- you have to get priorities straight.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Agreed. n/t
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. +1
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. That's complete rubbish.
Criticising Israel for the occupation is not 'hating' Israel.

Also, I don't know a single person who sits there and prioritises issues the way you falsely claim they do.
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aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. You said what I did much better. Thanks. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. we are supposed to to ignore a brutal military occupation for the sake of human rights
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 03:32 AM by azurnoir
what complete BS and Orwellian at that

and if we do not we hate Israel women gays minorities....... please you must aim for the truly simple minded with that crap
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. The Left already ignores how women, gays, & minorities suffer under horrific,abusive ME regimes...
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 06:53 AM by shira
....so the Palestine issue is no different as it's par for the course.

There are no occupations in those other countries, so what's stopping the global Left from loudly protesting for the basic rights of those most oppressed in the mideast by their dictators? Looks like the Arab Spring won't significantly improve conditions for those most oppressed, so....

What's the excuse? Priorities? Israel first, then...?

Or is the global Left really no different from the extreme far Right?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
28.  yes dear keep saying that but remember to click your heels 3 times when you do n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Where's Mondoweiss, Free Gaza, Richard Falk, etc.. protesting for Palestinian civil rights?
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 02:34 PM by shira
Oh, that's right.

To do that is anti-Palestinian...

:eyes:

Anti-Palestinian leadership, that is.

Wouldn't want to upset the folks doing good work at Hamas and PLO HQ.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. I have a problem with something you've said in yr post...
but the problem remains the same...being abandoned by the west progressives to fend for themselves,

What do you mean by being abandoned? What do you suggest western progressives do?

It looks like Chesler picked up on the story rather than being approached by someone who unlike her has completely different motivations for what she's writing...
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. being abandoned....
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 07:44 AM by pelsar
why did i write that?...because i find it rather disgusting that when the left is busy promoting Palestinians rights, in regards to israel, they seem to lose their voice when it comes to rights of Palestinian women and others within the PA/Hamas (which i think is more serious and longer lasting).

for instance, why wasn't her story printed on the "free gaza websites? ....where are they? thats what i mean by the west "abandoning them"

as far as Chesler goes, the lady thanked her for printing it, you don't have to agree with Chesler on anything, but you should be wondering why its was Chesler that ended up printing it and getting thanked for it....

Asmaa wrote to thank me for my recent piece which mentioned her plight
___

if you google Asmaa
at best you fine a single article motherjones....and another from Chesler
http://www.ruthfullyyours.com/2011/04/03/phyllis-chesler-arab-spring-male-on-female-atrocity-in-gaza-unreported-by-the-media/

thats why i believe the women's rights of the Palestinians have been abandoned by the western left.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. But that's not true at all...
I just did a quick google, and found quite a bit on the rights of Palestinian women...

http://www.womensenews.org/story/the-world/050405/palestinian-womens-rights-lost-power-shifts

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=16028

Y'know, the reason that women's rights aren't one of the issues covered by Free Gaza would be the same as why discrimination towards women in Israel isn't covered by CAMERA or other partisan pro-Israel sites. All of them focus on the occupation itself.

I don't see much from the left on the extreme and widespread discrimination towards women that goes on in India. Unfortunately women's rights are all too often pushed into the background and only brought to light as part of an another agenda. For example, I remember long before 9/11 when most people had no idea who the Taliban were, RAWA existed and was documenting the abuse of women. But after 9/11, suddenly Bush was using the treatment of Afghan women as a justification for invading Afghanistan, even though prior to that their treatment just didn't raise much interest at all. I was posting on a forum back then that allowed conservatives to post, and as soon as I voiced my opposition to the US bombing the crap out of Afghanistan, I was labelled a supporter of the Taliban, despite the fact that I'd been posting about the abuse of Afghan women long before that. In the case of Palestinian women, I strongly oppose the occupation, and strongly oppose discrimination towards women. There's no either/or about it as far as I'm concerned...

I'm not too familiar with Chesler, but I'm aware she's a RW type. I had a quick look at some stuff she'd written and while I disagree with much of it, she's got it right with her support of reproductive rights for women in the US. I just don't think it was a case of her being approached because no-one else would listen in this case, but of her picking up on the story and running with it...
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. actually Chesler was rather slow to the punch Reporters Without Borders reported the incident
almost a month earlier

GAZA

Members of the Hamas security forces attacked journalists on 15 March in the course of dispersing several hundred people who had gathered in Katiba Square in Gaza City in response to a call on Facebook by the 15 March Coalition, which is campaigning for an end to the political divisions in the Palestinian Territories.

After blocking all streets leading into the square at around 6 p.m., the security forces moved in and ordered the demonstrators to leave. When some resisted, the police destroyed their tents, beginning with the tent put up by the Union of Journalists, and attacked around 20 reporters and photographers, seizing many cameras and memory cards.

Asma Al-Ghoul, the correspondent of the SKeyes Centre for Media and Cultural Freedom, was badly beaten and was held for five hours. Her colleague, Samah Ahmed was stabbed in the back and had to be taken to Gaza Citys Shifa Hospital for treatment. Akram Atallah, who writes for the West Bank daily Al-Ayyam, was so badly beaten that his left arm was broken.

Yesterday, Hamas security forces prevented four journalists Xinhua photographer Khader Abu Kuik, Al-Jazeera cameraman Ismail Al-Zanoun, AFP photographer Mohamed Al-Baba and freelancer Sam Yassin from covering a demonstration outside a United Nations office in Gaza. Their cameras were seized and the memory cards were removed.

http://en.rsf.org/arabie-saoudite-more-harassment-of-journalists-19-03-2011,39826.html

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Gershon Baskin claims Hamas was not interested in improving Gaza economy as result of Shalit trade
Edited on Thu Nov-10-11 02:46 PM by shira
ONLY TIME will tell whether or not the opening of the Gaza economy was officially part of the deal to release Schalit. In the early days of the official negotiations I was asked to inform Hamas that once Schalit was no longer in Gaza Israel would allow major economic development and infrastructure projects to be implemented there. Some in Israel believed this could serve as an incentive to the Hamas leaders to advance the deal. It was not.To the contrary: that proposal was essentially ignored. At no point in those talks did my Hamas interlocutors express any real interest in pursuing that discussion. My hunch - that economic issues would not excite Hamas leaders to make compromises - proved to be correct.

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=243068%20

In other words, Hamas couldnt care less about improving ordinary Palestinians lives by easing the blockade of Gaza. Indeed, it was so indifferent to this goal it completely ignored an Israeli offer to do so. Instead, it focused solely on trying to get Israel to release the maximum number of the most murderous terrorists it possibly could for instance, the men who orchestrated deadly suicide bombings on a Passover seder in Netanya, a Jerusalem pizzeria and buses in Jerusalem and Haifa (those four attacks alone killed 73 Israelis). In short, faced with a choice between improving its peoples lives and improving its ability to murder Israelis by freeing the most accomplished killers, it unhesitatingly chose the latter.

Nor is there any shortage of other evidence regarding Hamas utter indifference to its peoples welfare. It has barred aid shipments from entering Gaza; it banned Israeli imports after Israel eased the blockade last year, hence ensuring Gaza remained deprived; it shut down Gazas major power plant rather than pay for the fuel; it barred high school students from using the scholarships they won for study abroad; and the list could go on and on.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/11/09/hamas-gaza-blockade-arab-spring/

Nothing to see here.

Please ignore and continue blaming Israel 100%...

:eyes:
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-10-11 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. that Hamas popularity is on the wane has been known for quite sometime
and this is despite the Schalit deal which had some here predicting (hoping?) it would put Hamas back on top which it did not



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Ginas Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. Hamas is worse than Fatah, Fatah is still bad
It still has under its wings the infmaous butchers: 'Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade.'
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