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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 12:55 PM
Original message
Goldstone and the futility of repentance
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But being "fact", as the mission declared its findings, is one thing; being accepted as such in the public sphere and especially the pro-Israel Jewish and evangelical communities, without whose support Israel could never get away with such actions, is another. And so Phase Two of Operation Cast Lead, the propaganda battle to determine the public narrative of the war, was launched. Its chief target was the integrity of Justice Goldstone.

The accusations of starting a blood libel and of engaging in a deliberate betrayal of fellow Jews are of the same type as the accusations that led to the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. He was removed from the Board of Governors of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and became persona non grata in Israel.

Moreover, Goldstone was essentially excommunicated from his synagogue, and attempts were made to prevent him from attending his grandson's bar mitzvah.

As a prominent South African Jewish scholar explained to me: "I think international Jewish pressure was relentless and got to him and he felt a sort of community death knell." A well-known progressive Jewish leader in the US who has faced similarly vitriolic attacks from the Zionist Right seconded this view, arguing that "Judge Goldstone was assaulted harshly by the State of Israel and by the organised Jewish community, publicly repudiated by the Obama administration and Congress".

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011115141434848384.html
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dtexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. And we have another shiny "scandal" to distract us from ...
Israeli piracy on the high seas, land theft, and denial of human and political rights.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. Should Goldstone be forgiven?
Op-ed: Goldstone's recent pro-Israel comments cannot offset his immoral behavior

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4145191,00.html

:o
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. From the article WRT what a full fledged apology from Goldstone should look like...
I want to present my apologies to Israel for the Goldstone Report. I should not have accepted the assignment from the UNHRC. I knew that former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Mary Robinson had refused to accept the UNHRC mandate as it was biased. I should have known that the composition of the commission I headed was a partisan one. I should have in particular understood that Christine Chinkin should not have been a member as she had already expressed her opinion that Israel had committed war crimes. I want to ask her and the other members of the commission to apologize as well.

I knew from my lengthy experience that the commission should not have relied on hearsay and anonymous accusations as evidence. The claims against our commission that we did not investigate critical facts are justified. The way we legitimized the terror organization Hamas is even more unforgivable than many other examples of our carelessness, misjudgments and mistakes.


I have destroyed my own reputation of fairness with the report the commission I headed has published. Far more severe is the harm I have caused to the State and people of Israel, the cause of justice, the profession of international humanitarian law and to democracy in general.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. Yuck. He's got nothing to apologise for...
Clearly him expressing his opinions is something that upsets the idiots from either 'side'. It's a shame that they don't seem to realise that life is full of people with opinions that don't gel with their own, and normal folk are able to disagree with something without resorting to shrieking abuse and demanding apologies....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Sure he does. He accepted a biased mission initiated by the OIC. Do you know what they're about?
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 09:27 AM by shira
(OIC) Organization of Islamic Conference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_of_Islamic_Cooperation#Human_rights

Imagine that. An outrageously conservative, extreme rightwing, antisemitic organization dedicated to Sharia Law and for terrorism initiated the Goldstone Report. Here they are admitting to it...
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/10/20091021112649368100.html

They are the enemies of Progressive/Liberal Muslims who have denounced them many times over the years.

The HRC that voted to affirm Goldstone is also dominated by human rights abusers.

Goldstone has plenty to apologize for.


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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I was already aware him having his own opinions upsets you...
Maybe you should email him and demand an apology?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I suppose the extremely rightwing OIC initiating the Goldstone Report means nothing to you. NT
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. No more than the extremely rightwing GOI and it's supporters getting all upset about Goldstone n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. But you support an extreme rightwing OIC initiative that brought forth the commission...
...as well as supporting all the extremely abusive governments WRT human rights that voted in favor of its recommendations once it was published.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Will you stop making up complete bullshit about what I believe?
I'm getting sick and tired of it, and if yr going to continue to do so after being asked many times to stop, I'm going to start giving you a taste of yr own medicine...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Okay. The most radically extreme and abusive governments voted in favor of Goldstone...
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 04:11 PM by shira
These horribly abusive governments made up the vast majority of nations in the UN that not only initiated the Goldstone commission but also voted in favor of it once the report was published.

Now you don't support that and think these nations were all wrong for doing so?

======

As to complete bullshit about what others believe, you wrote earlier others here believe the IDF should continue the occupation for the good of Palestinians when no one here has ever said any such thing.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. So what? Other radically extreme and abusive govts opposed it...
I see I'm going to have to repeat this yet again. Stop lying about what I believe, Shira. You do it to me and others on a regular basis. And seeing as how there have been posters in this forum that have stated quite clearly that the Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves and need someone else to do it, I suggest you go hit yr 'archives' that you've been so fond of referring to lately and look for yrself instead of doing the *I know what everyone else believes* routine. Stick to what you believe for a change and you'll be taken a bit more seriously than you are now.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Really, which ones? And you didn't answer my question.
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 04:38 PM by shira
Also I'm not lying about what you believe. That's why I'm asking you to clarify. It appears you have no problem with the OIC initiating Goldstone so logically you support the OIC decision to initiate the Goldstone Commission, right? If not, please explain.

FTR, no one here has stated Palestinians are incapable of self-rule and need the IDF to do so. Many Palestinians have preferred IDF control over Hamas/PLO but that doesn't mean anyone here believes the IDF should do so for the Palestinians own good.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. The GOI is extremely right-wing and abusive...
Of course they're not Arabs, so that gives them a pass ;)

Yes, you are very much being dishonest about what I believe. Even after I've told you what I believe about things, you continue to repeat the same false claims about what I supposedly believe. And I'm not the only person in this forum you've done this to. Do you think what yr doing is an effective debating technique and leads people to see you as honest and genuine? It doesn't.

What utter bullshit. There have been plenty of posts here, including some from yrself, arguing that the Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves. I suggest you spend just a fraction of the time you spend inventing what other people believe in going back and reading. Or in yr case, getting someone who can comprehend what's written to read it and explain it to you...

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Now you're not answering another question. Which radically extreme abusive govt's did not vote...
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 04:57 PM by shira
...for Goldstone? FTR, the Kadima led GOI during OCL was not radically extreme rightwing and cannot be compared to rogue regimes like LIbya or N.Korea.

And since radically extreme abusive govt's made up the vast majority of votes for Goldstone - which you agree with being you think the Goldstone Commission and its finding were legit - how is it a lie to say you support what these radically extreme and abusive govt's want?

Lastly, arguing Palestinians are incapable of governing themselves and that the IDF should do so for the good of Palestinians are 2 different arguments. Do you realize that? So you're wrong.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I did answer it. Try reading what yr replying to...
Now, seeing yr so fixated on not supporting anything that might also be supported by anything right-wing, let's start a list of everything you've supported that the extremely right-wing Israeli govt supports. Then you can try and explain why it's okay for you to support those things...

We'll start with the expansion of settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem...

No, they're not two different arguments at all.

Anyway, are you going to stop making false claims about my views are, even when I've corrected you on them?


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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. How did you answer those questions? Explain. It appears you're deflecting again.
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 05:15 PM by shira
As to 2 separate arguments WRT Palestinians not being able to rule themselves well and the IDF having to do so for Palestinians' own good - now you're telling me what I believe when I'm telling you that's not what I believe. Palestinian self-rule does suck and the IDF does need to be there, but not for Palestinians' own good - rather for Israeli self defense.

I'll answer you as I have nothing to hide...

I don't support rightwing expansion of settlements. Like most liberal and leftwing Israelis, I don't have a particular problem with natural growth within areas that will become Israel in any reasonable 2 state scenario. If you're for 2 states as you say you are, you shouldn't have a real problem with that either.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. It's right there in the title. It appears yr not bothering to read again...
You didn't explain why it's okay for you to support things the extremely right-wing government of Israel supports, while in the same breath insisting that if someone agrees with something right-wingers also agree with, that makes them a supporter of those particular right-wingers.


If you're for 2 states as you say you are....

I don't just say I am. I support a two-state solution. Learn to cope with it, Shira...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. LOL. Classic. n/t
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 05:26 PM by shira
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Great. Glad that's all sorted out for you...
I hope even you can see the folly of that argument you used...

btw, Shira. I just checked and I still support a two-state solution. Just in case you'd forgotten already ;)
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #31
92. In VC's defense I have seen her state that she supports a 2 state solution on a number of occasions.
She may differ with you, myself and others within the 2ss postion on sub positions but that does not mean she does not take a position in support of the 2ss.

This is not totally true

I don't support rightwing expansion of settlements. Like most liberal and leftwing Israelis, I don't have a particular problem with natural growth within areas that will become Israel in any reasonable 2 state scenario.If you're for 2 states as you say you are, you shouldn't have a real problem with that either.


While most 2ss supporters would agree with what you state about expansion, even within those who support a 2ss there are many who have differing positions and sub-positions on many issues, including expansion, for a variety of reasons. Being against natural growth expansion does not mean you take a position against a 2ss. Being anti Israel does not necessarily mean you are against a 2ss. Sure there are many who claim to support a 2ss but really don't, and use the 2ss as a cover for their desire to see the destruction of Israel. They are generally easy to pick out and I don't think VC is a member of that group. She may differ widely with me on issues, positions and sub positions regarding Israel, but I don't think its out of seeking the destruction of Israel, its more so to put as simply as possible, that she is just plain wrong on much of the IP. In general within any position on any issue there is going to be legitimate differences of opinion sometimes being very wide differences but that is a whole other issue for another day.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. It's difficult understanding the mentality of some people who say they support 2 states...
....but who also tend to support odious organizations against 2 states and for the destruction of Israel.

And just like those organizations they participate in a demonization and delegitimization campaign that portrays Israel as a nation which has no right to exist.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't buy that they're really for 2 states.

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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. An apology will come
sooner or later.

;)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Why? Do you think he owes you one?
;)
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Yes
Me and the rest of Bnai Yisrael.(worldwide)
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
35. That's pretty stupid. Why does he owe an apology to all Jews?
The report quite correctly criticised Israel. Why does he owe you or all Jews an apology for criticising Israel?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Obviously the report did not correctly criticize Israel, as Goldstone retracted the central, main...
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 04:59 PM by shira
...conclusion of the report - that Israel intentionally killed civilians.

All the rest of the report was supposed to provide evidence of Israel's malicious intentionality.

Since Goldstone says Israel did not intentionally target civilians, the report which attempts to prove that intentionality is one big pile of worthless shit.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Obviously it did, seeing you got so angry about it...
That's a pretty good indication that something's right on the money when it comes to criticism of Israel...

I am amused by how you see Goldstone as a complete liar when he comes out with something you don't like, but then think he speaks the TrUtH when he says something you do agree with....

btw, is there a need for you to post multiple replies to a single post of mine? It's obvious yr familiar with the editing function, so it's a good idea to just add to the existing post within a one-hour period instead of popping back and adding yet another reply...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. He retracted the report's central conclusion. What do you think of that? n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. You know how it works now. You can tell me what I supposedly think n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Goldstone said there wasn't a policy to kill civilians but you said Livni and Barak murdered...
...large numbers of Israelis.

Goldstone retracted.

I didn't see you admit you were wrong.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I'm pretty sure I never said that about Livni and Barak at all...
'Goldstone said there wasn't a policy to kill civilians but you said Livni and Barak murdered large numbers of Israelis.'

What makes you think I give a shit about what you claim to see or not see? I don't.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. You made outrageous claims about Livni and Barak and used the Goldstone Report as support
Here it is...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4483237&mesg_id=4487458

Goldstone retracted.

You're still standing by your false charges, however.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. There's nothing outrageous about calling them war criminals...
I also call Bush, Howard and Blair war criminals. Guess that must also be outrageous to some who only have a prerequisite that war criminals have to be Arab and preferable Muslim.

I'll repeat it again in the hope it sinks in. I doubt it will though. I did not call them war criminals because of the Goldstone Report. I thought they were war criminals before the report was released. Anything about that yr not comprehending? If there is, ask someone who can hold their nose for longer than me to explain it very slowly to you...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. You went further, saying they're responsible for the murder of large numbers of Palestinians...
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 08:20 PM by shira
Goldstone didn't go that far - retracting the bit about it being state policy to kill or murder civilians.

In fact, you just claimed earlier the report "quite correctly criticized Israel". But Goldstone retracted. Guess it wasn't correct criticism, now was it?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I didn't say there was a state policy.
And seeing as how you invent what I think, I'll leave it to you to tell me the answer to yr question.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. You said Livni/Barak were responsible for large numbers of Palestinians murdered.
That's the very definition of state policy.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. It comes as no surprise that you have no idea what the definition of policy is...
It's clear that you don't stop and think before you post. I also believe that Bush was responsible for large numbers of Iraqis being killed. Does that mean I think the US had a policy of mass-murder? Of course not. Anyone with a shred of intelligence knows that killings of large numbers of people in conflict does not mean there's a policy sitting there stating that mass-murder is the aim.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. It's one thing to accuse a leader of killing lots of people. It's another to accuse them of murder.
You're backtracking.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. That's still not saying there's a state policy in place...
And I'm not sure I ever said there was mass-murder. When it comes to military actions by governments, I tend not to refer to it as murder, but as killings that are war-crimes.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. Yeah, you never said 'mass-murder', only that a large number of Palestinians were murdered...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. Yr catching on. I never said anything about policy, nor did I say it was mass-murder...
Keep on repeating that to yrself till you finally grasp that trying to clumsily twist others views into some ugly thing that you'd like it to be is a fool's game. It reflects far more on the person doing it than the person on the receiving end.

Will there be anything else you want to invent about my views, or are you done?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. You not only deny sources that refute your POV, you deny your own words. Fascinating! NT
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Not at all. I've never said there's a policy of mass-murder...
And the reason for that is because I don't think there was a policy of mass-murder. You've shown a complete ignorance of what policy is, and totally ignored it when I explained to you why you were wrong and yet again falsely accused me of saying something that I hadn't said. If I thought there was the slightest chance that you were genuine, I'd take the time and effort to try to explain what I've already said in a different way in the hope you might understand it, but you've clearly shown many times now that you aren't the slightest bit interested in what the views of others are, instead preferring to embark on 'you believe <insert piece of sophomoric nonsense here>' journeys in order to fascinate yrself.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Sure seemed like it when you accused Livni/Barak of being war criminals responsible for the murder..
Edited on Mon Nov-14-11 02:14 PM by shira
...of large numbers of Palestinian civilians.

Did you ever accuse Bush of being responsible for the murder of a large number of Iraqi or Afghani citizens?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #76
79. No it didn't...
And that'd be because apart from not thinking that there was a policy of mass-murder, I never said it. I don't think it and never said it, so I'm waiting with bated breath to see where you can go with it from here...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. He needs to apologize for a blood libel that led to a spike in antisemitic activities. n/t
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 05:38 PM by shira
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Criticising Israel is not a blood libel...
And why are complete and utter nutcases demanding that he apologise to all Jews for the report containing criticism of Israel's actions during OCL? I found it a bit disturbing when people tried to connect Jews around the world with OCL, and I also find it a bit disturbing when it's done now...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Falsely accusing Israel of intentional killing civilians as policy is blood libel....
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 07:35 PM by shira
Goldstone retracted the report's main conclusion - that Israel deliberately targeted and killed civilians per state policy - was false - making the whole report crap since the entirety of it was "evidence" intended to prove malicious intent by the GOI.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. No, it's not blood libel.
So why are complete and utter nutcases demanding that he apologise to all Jews for the report containing criticism of Israel's actions during OCL? I found it a bit disturbing when people tried to connect Jews around the world with OCL, and I also find it a bit disturbing when it's done now...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. It was so bad you were accusing Livni & Olmert of being war criminals...
Do you regret that, given that Goldstone retracted?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. What was so bad?
You still haven't explained why nutters are demanding an apology to all Jews around the world. Like I said, I find the urge to equate all Jews with the actions of Israel to be just a bit on the disturbing side regardless of who does it...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Goldstone's accusations vs. Israel were so bad you called Livni & Barak war criminals....
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 07:53 PM by shira
....who murdered large numbers of Palestinians.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4483237&mesg_id=4487458

Now Goldstone said it wasn't Israeli policy to murder civilians.

You were misguided into thinking that was the policy.

Looks like you were wrong.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I'm pretty sure what Goldstone said had nothing to do with that...
Nor does it have anything to do at all with moronic claims that the Goldstone Report was blood libel. I keep on asking the question but no-one wants to answer. Why does Goldstone owe an apology to Jews around the world?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. See #49 above.
You thought you had good reason to claim Livni and Barak murdered large numbers of Palestinians.

Goldstone's Report gave you reason to do so.

But he recanted.

Now how about you? Were you wrong? See, you were falsely accusing Israel's leaders of mass murder and the IDF for carrying it out. That's the very definition of a blood libel which helps lead to antisemitism vs. Jews throughout the world.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Still pretty sure I'm right about what I think, and yr so very wrong on what I think...
I did call Livni and Olmert war criminals, and they are every bit as much as Bush and Howard are. The reason for doing that was the actions of the IDF, not because of the Goldstone Report. I'm pretty sure I've never accused the IDF of mass murder, as that's hyperbolic and I don't do hyperbole, so I'll dismiss that as yet another false accusation coming from you...

Now, back to the topic, which was the mindless labelling of criticism of Israel as a blood libel. Not only is it a disturbing part of the arsenal used by folk who like to equate the actions of Israel with Jews around the world, but flinging it around the way some folk do actually minimises real antisemitism when it occurs.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. Now you're claiming you never accused the IDF of mass murder, but you charged Livni/Barak...
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 08:30 PM by shira
...as being responsible for mass murder of Palestinians.

Livni/Barak can only be responsible for mass murder if they ordered the IDF to carry that out, which you believe they did - otherwise you wouldn't have made those accusations vs. Livni/Barak.

You're backtracking.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. No, I said the IDF killed a lot of Palestinian civilians...
And that Israel's leaders are ultimately responsible for those killings, just the same as Bush is responsible for the killing of Iraqi civilians by the US military.

If you must insist on replying to me, then at least try and comprehend what I've been saying.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. You used the word 'murder'. n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Did I? Am I taking yr word for that?
Edited on Sun Nov-13-11 09:00 PM by Violet_Crumble
If I did, I should remember the golden rule that the word murder must only be used when it comes to IDF troops killed by Palestinians. How lax of me!

I see you've strayed again from the topic of nutters who demand Goldstone apologise to all Jews for the Goldstone Reports criticism of Israel's actions in OCL. Those who do that sort of thing are every bit as disturbing as those who try to link Jews around the world with the actions of Israel towards the Palestinians. I don't get how some folk seem to think there's some sort of difference, coz there's not. One feeds the other, and visa versa. Both should be condemned. Unfortunately they're not...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Yeah, here's the link for about the 5th time now, to help you remember...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4483237&mesg_id=4487458

You used the word 'murder'. Now you're backpedaling and deflecting with your routine ad hominems...

Antisemitic incidents vs. random Jews spiked after OCL due to misleading headlines and hysterical reports like Goldstone's. Not only nutters but decent folks should be concerned about incitement via false charges against Israel that, for some reason, lead to 'open season' on Jews in different parts of the world. It also leads to those on the fence thinking Jews are bad really believing such things when the Goldstone Report and UN say so...

Food for bigots.

Not something to mock and deride, Violet.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. Deleted message
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Do you still believe Livni & Barak are responsible for the murder of large numbers of Palestinians?
Edited on Mon Nov-14-11 02:53 PM by shira
The reason why the term 'murder' is problematic is because when you accuse Israel's leaders of being responsible for that, either it's state sanctioned or it just happened (somehow) as a result of the war - which makes the IDF responsible for the murder of large numbers of Palestinian civilians. Either way that's a helluva charge you made there. Maybe you want to take that back when you should have said "killing" instead...

A certain poster here from Israel has written multiple times that the Swedish article claiming Israel killed Palestinians in order to harvest their organs was a blood libel.

Do you disagree?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #75
80. I'll let you tell everyone what I supposedly believe...
I'll leave you to it :)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Way to avoid difficult questions. n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #81
82. No, I'm expecting that you'll be able to tell me what I supposedly believe,..
That way yr question is answered and yr happy. I mean, why would someone who so regularly tells me what I supposedly believes and twists what I do believe into something very different, need to ask me when they've got all the answers right there at their fingertips?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #82
83. I have found that is much quicker.
Just let whomever it is tell you what you think and why so they can go away and feel vindicated or whatever it is, and let you get on with your day.

Generally speaking, I find I have no idea what I think until some emotionally worked-up ideologue explains it for me, fits it into his or her simple-minded little bins for good and evil and right and wrong. But once it is explained to me, all is suddenly clear and straightforward, and I know what I really think. It's cathartic, I tell you.

:sarcasm:
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Bemildred, it wouldn't be an issue if you guys just tried to honestly answer questions. NT
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. I am not required to answer questions, any more than you or anyone else is.
Which is not at all.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Well, this is a discussion board and questions are asked of both sides...
Edited on Tue Nov-15-11 12:53 PM by shira
The point is your side generally deflects questions, goes ad hominem, or doesn't answer them at all.

It's hard not to answer for you when you routinely fail to answer difficult questions.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. True. I was just seeing if it'd help get this thread over 100 posts..
I mean, it's clear that those who know better than me what I think aren't going to be swayed by me correcting them and telling them what I actually think, and that I should allow them their self-proclaimed victories and let them get on with the business of telling other people what they supposedly think.

I think you and I and others on our 'side' have just got to accept that we're not what we think we are at all, and we should be grateful that time's taken out of very busy schedules to repeatedly inform us of that! ;)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #82
84. I can only suspect what you believe when you evade, dodge or deflect from questions...
Edited on Tue Nov-15-11 12:03 PM by shira
...that are difficult for you to answer reasonably.

I'm hardly the only one here who you don't answer. In fact, each time you get into a conversation here with someone pro-Israel here you deflect, dodge, and evade their questions or go all ad-hominem. Time after time...

As for telling people what they believe, you don't get to lecture others about that when you just recently did it to others. An example being that people here are supposedly for the IDF occupation because we think it's good for Palestinians. No one here believes that but you insist that we do so that you'll have a strawman to tear down (which is about the only way you'll ever win an argument here).
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. In other words you make it up.
As I told Oberliner, I ignore lots of stuff on this forum, it's not my job to answer random questions here.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. That's the crux of it...
I'm quite surprised to find out that I don't actually answer any questions from anyone. I could have sworn that there's only one or two I don't waste my time on given that they've already told me what I supposedly think more than a few times...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Full court press on Al Jazeera's website with respect to Goldstone
Op-eds from Richard Falk, Noura Erekat, Ben White, MJ Rosenberg, John Dugard, Mark LeVine.

Did I leave anyone out?

Fascinating the way this has all played out.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Yes, it is (fascinating).
Makes me think of the glory days of the Cold War.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Reminds me of when Roger Clemens was signed by the Yankees
Amazing how quickly the good guy can become the bad guy and vice versa.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well yeah.
I was thinking of having dual propaganda narratives pursued with scorched-earth vigor in the public media, the dispute over Goldstone etc. would be part of that WRT the I/P propaganda war, but one could analogize with sports disagreements too.

Have I mentioned my High-school football game theory of politics: "Root for your side no matter what!"

And I always wonder with these dogmatic disputes whether they ever resolve anything, is that the way to bet?

Hmm.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. The I/P propaganda war is epic
Almost moreso than the Cold War in some respects.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Getting there.
I grew up in the 50s and 60s when they were still making us hide under our desks every so often. Like that would help.

I would not know what metric to use to compare them, other than the energy with the propaganda is being catapulted, which I would say is increasing. I suppose some of that is because of the obvious lack of any "peace process" to suggest something is being done.

I think what I would say it that the subject is getting more attention than it once did, which is somewhat Abbas doing, or initiative.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. ah don't forget those TV and magazine ads either
Edited on Mon Nov-07-11 04:52 PM by azurnoir
the one that comes first to mind ran frequently in Womens Day and Family Circle about Mrs Jones and her choices in soap purchase which may seem 'excessive' to some governments but do they know Mrs Jones has a kid with sensitive skin or some such

eta these days we're seeing an ads for lintel filmed in their plant in Israel extolling the virtues of Israel even more than the chips being advertised
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. Poor Mr Goldstone seems he just can't win either way
seems once a path is chosen.....
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-09-11 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. It's been kind of amusing to watch...
Seeing he got all sorts of threats and vicious personal attacks from one bunch of idiots when the report came out, I hope any of the same from idiots on the other 'side' will be like water off a duck's back seeing he's copped so much already.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. its really been more sad to watch in attempting to apologize ?
he has done the delegitmizers job for them, those who maligned him before will still malign him and some on the 'other side' will as well now
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Goldstone apologized? When? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. "If I had known then what I know now" seems pretty apologetic
but no he did not prostrate himself before the Israeli government and beg forgiveness
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #37
53. I disagree, but tell me what exactly did Goldstone apologize for in your opinion? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-13-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #53
68. what do you think he's guilty of?
I for one am not sure
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. Looks like he's sorry about the allegations of deliberate intent to kill civilians. You agree? NT
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. I think he has nothing to apologize for
and it is sad that he did, choosing to attack a mosque at evening prayers as IAF did seems to indicate an intent to target civilians regardless of whether or not munitions were stored there
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-11 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #78
91. I agree. The demands for an apology are pretty pathetic...
In his defence, he endured a torrent of very ugly abuse and threats from whackos who objected to the Goldstone Report. I don't hold it against him if he cracked under the pressure...
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