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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:21 PM
Original message
Lies told about Israel are beyond belief
A new flood of propaganda is about to add to misconceptions about the state, writes Benjamin Pogrund

The accusations are not true. This year I spent three-and-a-half months in South Africa, mostly as a Visiting Fellow at the Kaplan Centre at the University of Cape Town, and day after day read condemnations of Israel. Some were justified: Israel is as imperfect a society as anywhere else; moreover, its occupation of the West Bank and siege of the Gaza Strip lay it wide open to criticism.

Yet the attacks go beyond reality. They depict a racist monster which does not exist. I was astonished by the lack of knowledge which leads even well-meaning people into unjustified and cockeyed attitudes. The widespread ignorance also opens the way to manipulation: there are people who, for reasons best known to them, are malevolent and hate-filled towards Israel; it's depressing to read their lies and distortions, and even more to find that they are believed.

A few examples: it is not true, as some claim, that the United Nations did not consult Arabs before voting for partition of Palestine, in November 1947. A UN committee of inquiry was followed by full debate in the General Assembly - and led to voting, with a two-thirds majority, to create an Arab state and a "Jewish state". Both the US and the Soviet Union backed it. Jews accepted partition, Arabs didn't, went to war, and lost. Israel is the UN-sanctioned "Jewish state".

No one objects to Saudi Arabia having only Muslims as citizens. No one objects to Pakistan and Iran and others declaring themselves an "Islamic state". They are ethnic states. Israel is also an essentially ethnic state. Is it any less valid? Yet why is the "Jewish state" singled out for condemnation?

It's theatre: the actors know their parts and the result is known before they start. Israel is to be dragged into the mud.

If anyone is in any doubt, look at the players: almost without exception, everyone has a publicly known - and hostile - stance towards Israel. Their motivations might vary, but the message they pump is the same.

Words like "tribunal", "jury" and "findings" mislead. There will not be any calm and dispassionate consideration of facts and a desire to understand the complexities resulting from history and wars: a quick Google check tells the story, from the naked prejudices of such as Ronnie Kasrils and John Dugard, to Cynthia McKinley, the former US Congress member whose loss of her seat was attributed to her loopy ideas of a Washington role in the 9/11 terrorism.


http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2011/10/30/lies-told-about-israel-are-beyond-belief
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree. The less said about Israel the better.
Especially in DU.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Huh ? More is said about Israel than
Almost any other country, including those killing vast numbers of their own citizens.

Syria, Lebanon,Iean,Darfur etc do not have it's own forum in DU.

The Jewish State is an obsession with a lot of people.
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #6
16. Excellent point, when are we going to create a Syrian forum here on DU
Or, are we all in agreement on most things except this?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. Well, the I/P forum is *for* discussion of Israel and Palestine
If you don't want discussion of Israel, you can avoid the forum.

Is is that you think that DU should only discuss America, or is it *just* Israel that you don't want discussed?
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:47 PM
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2. There is always two sides to every story
Benjamin Pogrund piece (See Guardian, August 24), arguing that "Boycotts only harden Israeli opinion", is a groundbreaking work of distortion of history, denial of facts, propaganda, disinformation and could have been written by Mark Regev, spokesman for the Prime minister of Israel.

Benjamin Pogrund should know better.

He is wrong on pretty much every single argument he makes.

http://palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=15381
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Thanks for demonstrating the lies
This is exactly what Pogrun was talking about.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Frank Barat is being terribly simplistic here.
Pogrund's views are nothing like Netanyahu's or presumably Regev's. He is in favour of a Palestinian state and against Israel's moer hawkish and hard-line policies. Pogrund is quite right - boycotts *will* just harden Israeli attitudes. And it *is* time for developing peace and co-existence between the two sides. It's ironic that those who most want a 'one-state solution' of a single secular democratic state are often against the peace and coexistence projects that are the only thing that could conceivably make such a solution possible one day in the future.

Also: when Pogrund says that Israel isn't like South Africa, at least he has lived in both countries, unlike many of the people who do equate them. So his words should be at least be listened to.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Beyond belief to the rational and sane, but 'facts' to the intentionally blind and haters.
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 09:50 PM by shira
Brave article by Pogrund.

:thumbsup:
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. I have just been reading a book left to me by my father, entitled Jesus
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 10:03 PM by JDPriestly
and the Zealots by S.G.F. Brandon.

It explains that the New Testament book of Mark was written as an apology for Christianity around the time of what is called the "destruction of the temple" by the Romans.

The story of the Crucifixion that is told in Mark and more or less retold in Matthew and Luke was, of course, written maybe 35 years after Jesus was crucified. It is false. A friend who is an expert on Roman Civil Law explained to me some years ago that the facts as presented by Mark could never have happened under that law.

Mark probably wrote that "gospel" around the time that the Roman emperor had marched through Rome parading the spoils of the assault on the temple including what remained of the temple curtain. The Christians in Rome were no doubt anxious to distance themselves from the Jewish people.

Like it or not, Jesus was a practicing Jew all his life. And he may have been a Zealot, a revolutionary or even terrorist who opposed the Romans. Certainly his disciple "Simon the Zealot" was a Zealot. And it is possible that Judas Iscariot was also a Zealot since another term for Zealot is Sicarii. This is a theory which is supported but not proved by the fact that Jesus was crucified -- which was the Roman, not the Jewish, punishment for, among other things, political enemies of the state.

That is where the great hatred of the Jews began. The historical basis for the hatred has been forgotten. But it was only in maybe the late 1970s or 1980s that Catholics in Austria finally abandoned the last anti-Jewish shrine in Austria. Can you believe that?

So, a lot of the falsehoods about and venom directed at Israel trace back to the falsehoods in the New Testament about what really happened.

Paul wrote letters, but he had never actually known Jesus very well if at all and was also potentially an apologist for Rome since he wanted to convert non-Jews.

I think that the Acts of the Apostles is believed to be the earliest of the books in the New Testament to be written.

Jesus and the Zealots was written in 1967. It is incredibly well footnoted and appears to be quite scholarly. If anyone knows of any book on this topic that is more recent, I would appreciate knowing about it. This is a fascinating subject -- the slander of an entire people long ago that still influences people of our time.

The movie Sword of Constantine is interesting about the role of Constantine in the growth of the Catholic Church.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. "Yet why is the 'Jewish state' singled out for condemnation?"
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 12:20 PM by Boojatta
Judaism is an old religion, and newer religions have associated with them lots of written works (including passages from official scriptures) that make accusations against both Jews and Judaism.

People who practice Judaism don't try to convert the world to Judaism. As a result, the word "Jewish" itself requires context to determine whether the word is referring to people based on the religion they adhere to, or the word is referring to people based on their ancestry. Thus, all things Jewish get directed at them hostility based on a combination of religious bigotry and racism, and there is only one country that is officially Jewish, so it becomes the target for a lot of hostility.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Good article, clarifying lots of the facts
There are lots of lies told about any country, goodness knows; but Israel seems to come in for more than its share.

And to anyone who thinks from the title that it's just 'any criticism of Israel is a lie' - *read the article*; it doesn't say that at all, but points out some real lies.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. oh no he does not not do that at all does he
what he does is gloss over and sidestep a few examples here

No one objects to Saudi Arabia having only Muslims as citizens. No one objects to Pakistan and Iran and others declaring themselves an "Islamic state". They are ethnic states. Israel is also an essentially ethnic state. Is it any less valid? Yet why is the "Jewish state" singled out for condemnation?

It is not Israel calling it self the "Jewish State" that is the real issue, if Israel wishes to do that fine. The issue is Israel requiring another entity under its control the Palestinians to call it the "Jewish State " as a hoop to be jumped through in order to recieve its possible freedom

Equally the attacks on Zionism. Zionism grew at the end of the 19th century as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people and within half a century achieved success with Israel's creation. It has been as valid and successful as the liberation movements in Europe during the 19th century and those in Africa and Asia during the 20th century.

Much misunderstood is that Arabs are 20% of Israel's population. As a minority they suffer discrimination; that's wrong, but is hardly unique in the world. Crucially, however, they have the vote and all citizenship rights. On the other hand, Palestinians on the West Bank and Gaza are not Israeli citizens and have no Israeli rights; the current international controversy is about them establishing an independent Palestinian state


well that much is correct but what he leaves out is that the apartheid charge is made not to Israel's dealings with its Arab population which he freely admits face discrimination but blithely goes on to imply that its realy not so bad everyone does it afterall, but the apartheid charge concerns Israel's action towards ithe noncitizens under its control in the West Bank something that is studiously ignored by those protesting the charge of apartheid

he then goes on to complain about the money involved in the Russell Tribunal but tell us Mr Pogrund are the US Congress people regularly brought to Israel flying coach and staying in 2 or 3 star hotels?

he also mentions interfaith and Gay marriage which are recognized in Israel as long as they are done elsewhere
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. He lied in the first few lines. Not a good look for someone complaining about lies...
"No one objects to Saudi Arabia having only Muslims as citizens. No one objects to Pakistan and Iran and others declaring themselves an "Islamic state"."

Lots of people object. Clearly he must be living under a rock not to have noticed, or is just lying to try to strengthen his argument. Either way, it's incredibly sloppy and not an article I'd be saying is good or factual....

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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Straw man
Would it have been better if he stated "No UN resolutions were written to condemn Saudi Arabia's apartheid against non-Muslims?"
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Nelson Tondreau Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Israel always gets the double standard
That's a good point.

In America, up until recently, Jews were still banned from country clubs around the country. Yet America is trying to sweep this hideous truth under the rug.

There are entire regions off limits to non-Muslims, but we don't hear a word.

In Iran there are shrines, mosques, government buildings, and parks that Muslims are not allowed to enter, yet we don't hear a peep out of Israel-haters.

In Japan people frequently put up signs that say "Japanese Only" or "No Foreigners Allowed" yet people reward Japan with millions of dollars in trade while demanding embargoes on Israel.

In Tibet, the native Tibetan people have put in concentration camps for 5 decades. 1.2 million Tibetans have died, compared to only a handful of Arabs ain Israel in the same period. The Chinese invaders have roads for the "Chinese Only," apartment complexes that are for the colonists only, and somehow we award China the Olympics.

I (a non-Jewish person) for one have been to Israel six times and I am certain it is one of the most tolerant countries on the face of the earth.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. You wrote: "I for one have been to Israel six times and I am certain it is one...
...of the most tolerant countries on the face of the earth."

Anyone objective who has been there multiple times would say the same thing, leading those people to wonder WTF others are doing claiming otherwise.
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