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Israel and the Apartheid Slander (by Richard Goldstone)

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:29 AM
Original message
Israel and the Apartheid Slander (by Richard Goldstone)
THE Palestinian Authoritys request for full United Nations membership has put hope for any two-state solution under increasing pressure. The need for reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians has never been greater. So it is important to separate legitimate criticism of Israel from assaults that aim to isolate, demonize and delegitimize it.
Related in Opinion

One particularly pernicious and enduring canard that is surfacing again is that Israel pursues apartheid policies. In Cape Town starting on Saturday, a London-based nongovernmental organization called the Russell Tribunal on Palestine will hold a hearing on whether Israel is guilty of the crime of apartheid. It is not a tribunal. The evidence is going to be one-sided and the members of the jury are critics whose harsh views of Israel are well known.

While apartheid can have broader meaning, its use is meant to evoke the situation in pre-1994 South Africa. It is an unfair and inaccurate slander against Israel, calculated to retard rather than advance peace negotiations.

I know all too well the cruelty of South Africas abhorrent apartheid system, under which human beings characterized as black had no rights to vote, hold political office, use white toilets or beaches, marry whites, live in whites-only areas or even be there without a pass. Blacks critically injured in car accidents were left to bleed to death if there was no black ambulance to rush them to a black hospital. White hospitals were prohibited from saving their lives.

more...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/01/opinion/israel-and-the-apartheid-slander.html
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Wow
That's the Richard Goldstone, right?
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. He is a South African judge
He should know .
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Nah, he's succumbed to enormous Zionist pressure and is now a paid hasbarist.
Throw him under the bus!
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Speaking of which...
Did you get your cheque this month?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Yeah, $20,000 USD monthly. Is that what you get from the elders? Just checking, you know. n/t
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 10:45 AM by shira
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
38. Not sure...
... I just get a "Fistful of Shekels"
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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. If you posted daily you could get a few shekels more
just saying. :)
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holdencaufield Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. LOL NT
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I have seen both movies "A Fistfull of Shekels" and "For a Few Shekels More" starring
Mordechai Jefferson Carver, a.k.a. The Hebrew Hammer

The Hebrew Hammer goes into a Nazi biker bar and pays with a fistfull of shekels and wishes them shabot shalom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHyuf47UvZQ



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Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. Looks like they are "throwing him under the bus":
...It is shocking that the eminent judge, who damaged his international reputation last spring by stepping away from a UN report he had co-authored in 2009 that was highly critical of Israel, would now step out as an Israel apologist, employing hackneyed and cookie-cutter arguments about a little democracy contending with hostile neighbors.

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/goldstone-sugercoats-persecution-to-try-to-save-israel.html#more-55560

thanks to azurnoir for posting the link below.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. why is it shocking? I more wondered if
he had another Grandson soon to be bar mitzvahed or something :)
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
55. He must have been using the Zionist mind-controlling toothpaste
oh wait, is the toothpaste used for mind control or birth control? I always get the two confused.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. May one assume Mr Goldstone is now back within the fold?
Or is he still an apostate?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. Nope, still a bad guy. n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well then, I guess I will keep on not giving much weight to his opinions. nt
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. You put a lot of weight into his opinion in the Goldstone Report. n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. You are mistaken. nt
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. That's odd as I don't recall you ever criticizing any aspect of his report. n/t
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes, quite right, what would I know about it.?
The report was interesting because Mr Goldstone said it, but it's just some people's opinions. It it easy to see why some people draw analogies between Israel and South Africa, and easy to see why other people find lots of differences between the two cases. There are lots of differences. But one ought to worry that so many find the analogy plausible, all the same.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
51. Your not the 1st to change nt
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #5
48. Now he seems to be BOTH sides' apostate!
Funny how no one can just think that someone is *wrong* on this issue, on either direction. You've got to be a liar, a traitor, a paid shill, or just 'an evil, evil man'. Dershowitz described Goldstone in the latter terms - now I daresay the fervent anti-Zionists will do just the same!
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. "No good deed goes unpunished."
The problem is that when one wishes to "frame the debate" in some certain way, one is forced to attempt to discredit all competing points of view. Now in reality, all those points of view are out there competing on their merits and demerits, but you can't allow that, "there can be only one". You must choose brave settlers in an empty land or the Nabka, evil Arabs or evil Jews, so of course things get a bit testy.

But anyway, I see somebody got the point. I rather sympathize with Mr Goldstone at this point, he must feel like he walked into a buzz-saw.
:thumbsup:
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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. The law and practice of apartheid in South Africa and Palestine
By John Dugard on November 1, 2011
Like 22 Retweet 5

Editor Note: Richard Goldstone has just published a new Op-Ed in today's New York Times titled "Israel and the Apartheid Slander." This recent article by South African international law expert John Dugard provides an interesting counter argument.

I spent most of my adult life in South Africa opposing apartheid, as an advocate, legal academic and, from 1978-1990, director of the Centre for Applied Legal Studies( a research institute engaged in human rights advocacy and litigation). In my work I compared and contrasted apartheid with international human rights standards and advocated a Constitution with a Bill of Rights in a democratic South Africa. Unlike many other South Africans, I was never imprisoned but I was prosecuted, arrested and threatened by the security police. My major book, Human Rights and the South African Legal Order (1978), the most comprehensive account of the law and practice of apartheid, was initially banned.

I had wide experience and knowledge of the three pillars of the apartheid state racial discrimination, repression and territorial fragmentation. I lead lawyers campaigns against the eviction of black persons from neighborhoods set aside for exclusive white occupation by the Group Areas Act, and against the notorious pass laws, which made it an offense for blacks to be in so-called white areas without the correct documentation. These campaigns took the form of free legal defense to all those arrested which made the systems unmanageable. Through the Centre for Applied Legal Studies I engaged in legal challenges to the implementation of the security laws and emergency laws, which allowed detention without trial and house arrest and, in practice, torture. I also challenged the establishment of Bantustans in the courts.

snip

From my first visit to Israel/OPT I was struck by the similarities between apartheid in South Africa and the practices and policies of Israel in the OPT. These similarities became more obvious as I became better informed about the situation. As Special Rapporteur I deliberately refrained from making such comparisons until 2005 as I feared that such comparisons would prevent many governments in the West from taking my reports seriously. However, after 2005 I decided that I could not in good conscience refrain from making such comparisons.

snip

A final comment based on my personal experience. There was an altruistic element to the apartheid regime, albeit motivated by the ideology of separate development, which aimed to make the Bantustans viable states. Although not in law obliged to do so, it built schools, hospitals and roads for black South Africans. It established industries in the Bantustans to provide employment for blacks. Israel even fails to do this for Palestinians. Although in law it is obliged to cater for the material needs of the occupied people, it leaves this all to foreign donors and international agencies. Israel practices the worst kind of colonialism in the OPT. Land and water are exploited by an aggressive settler community that has no interest in the welfare of the Palestinian people - with the blessing of the state of Israel.

John Dugard is a South African international lawyer who headed the Centre for Applied Legal Studies in Johannesburg during the Apartheid era. In 1995 he assisted in the drafting of the Bill of Rights in the South African Constitution. For seven years he was Special Rapporteur on the human rights situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territory to the UN Human Rights Council and Commission on Human Rights. This article originally appeared in the Autumn 2011 issue of Al-Majdal.

http://mondoweiss.net/2011/11/the-law-and-practice-of-apartheid-in-south-africa-and-palestine.html
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. John Dugard vs. Richard Goldstone
Maybe someone should host a debate.

Perhaps Mr. Weiss himself?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. +1.
I like it. That should be a good discussion.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. I wonder if they have a cordial relationship
Maybe something like that could actually occur.

Might be very instructive for a lot of interested parties.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. That's an interesting question.
Either way, I think their discussion of this issue would be illuminating.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
46. Would be very interesting
Not sure about Weiss as the ideal host (what about Larry Derfner, for example?) But it would be an interesting debate!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
12. Amazon.com: The Goldstone Report 'Reconsidered': A Critical Analysis
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. I went to college with the co-author of this book
Anne Herzberg - another Oberliner!
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. more on this book published by NGO Monitor
Contributions by Abraham Bell, Peter Berkowitz, Laurie Blank, Chatham House, Irwin Cotler , Alan Dershowitz, Dore Gold, Moshe Halbertal, Anne Herzberg, Richard Landes, Ed Morgan, Trevor Norwitz, Gerald M. Steinberg.

Israel has been the subject of numerous controversial U.N. inquiries related to armed conflict and responses to terror attacks.

But, the scope and impact of the Report of the United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, known as the Goldstone Report, were particularly extreme.

Produced under the politicized U.N. Human Rights Council, the fact-finding reflected in the Goldstone Report has been shown to be largely inaccurate.



About the Author
Prof. Gerald Steinberg is president of NGO Monitor and professor of Political Studies at Bar Ilan University. His research interests include international relations, Middle East diplomacy and security, the politics of human rights and non-governmental organizations (NGOs), Israeli politics and arms control.

He works with a number of international organizations (NATO, UN University, OSCE, SIPRI); participates in track-two workshops and in the Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism ICCA; and is the founder of the Program on Conflict Management and Negotiation at Bar Ilan University.

Recent academic publications include NGOs, Human Rights, and Political Warfare in the Arab-Israel Conflict; Europe's Failed Middle East Policies; Uncivil Society: Ideology, Human Rights, and Antisemitism; and The UN, the ICJ and the Separation Barrier: War by Other Means (Israel Law Review). He is also completing research examining the credibility of human rights organizations during the 2006 Lebanon war, under the auspices of the Israel Science Foundation.

His op-ed columns have been published in Wall St. Journal (Europe), Financial Times, Ha aretz, International Herald Tribune, Jerusalem Post, and other publications. He has appeared as a commentator on the BBC, CBC. CNN, and NPR.

Anne Herzberg is a graduate of Oberlin College and Columbia University Law School where she was named a James Kent Scholar and a Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar. Prior to joining NGO Monitor as Legal Advisor, she worked as a litigation associate in New York for the law firms Winston & Strawn and Shearman & Sterling. As part of her pro bono work as an associate, Anne assisted asylum seekers and performed work for the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. She has published on the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia.


Product Details

Paperback: 310 pages
Publisher: NGO Monitor; First edition (September 20, 2011)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 9659179308
ISBN-13: 978-9659179305
Product Dimensions: 9.4 x 6.6 x 0.8 inches
Shipping Weight: 1.2 pounds (View shipping rates and policies)
Average Customer Review: Be the first to review this item
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. That's not actually any "more" about the book
That is exactly what is written at the Amazon link provided by the poster above.

Presumably people are capable of clicking that link and reading that information all by themselves.

Why you felt the need to cut and paste the Amazon info (including the ISBN numbers, product dimensions, and shipping weight) is beyond me.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. and other contributing authors too indeed there is much more about the book
but you do seem vexed at it being posted, why?
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. Did you major or minor in the required Free Mumia degree. Did you live in the
Edited on Wed Nov-02-11 08:44 PM by Dick Dastardly
Free Mumia dorm towers(dorm rooms are like Mumias cell) on Free Mumia Blvd across from the Free Mumia Park next to the Free Mumia classroom bldg housing the Free Mumia Auditorium that is next to the administrative offices of the Oberlin College of Free Mumia that offers a wide range of Free Mumia degrees from a Dr. of Free Mumia to the required minimum Free Mumia minor.

My friend went there and said he was allowed to substitute any required course in other degrees such as calculus, English or history courses with any Free Mumia courses(many of which are video instruction by Mumia himself all with required books by Mumia himself with all proceeds going to the Mumia Foundation). He took the Free Mumia 101, The Free Mumia How to Shoot a Cop and Blame it on the Man201, The Free Mumia How to Shoot a Cop and Blame it on the Racist Man 202, The Free Mumia are White People that stupid to believe my BS or is it a function of anyone being on the far left and or middle/upper class guilt 221, The Free Mumia how to Rally these stupid fools behind you no matter how ridiculous your cause is 222 and last but not least The Free Mumia How to Cash in on your Cause and Make a Fortune 251. There were many other such course that were more advanced but my friend only took them to substitute for math courses for his BA in Mathematics. He got a BA in Math and never had to take any math courses thanks to Mumia.





:) :evilgrin: :evilgrin: :rofl:



BTW didn't Mumia give a video commencement speech at Oberlin one year?
I know he did it somewhere which in all seriousness is pretty appalling. (not saying you are appalling or reflects on you)
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-03-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. That's pretty funny
I always used to joke that I belonged to the most far-right organization on Oberlin's campus - the College Democrats.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
21. LOL. Heads are exploding over at Mondoweiss. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. actually more side splitting or ROLF but as you wsh here's a link for anyone who cares to read it
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Everything written by Weiss is side splitting ROLF rightwing Jew-hating idiocy. n/t
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 04:30 PM by shira
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. your defination of rightwing is quite curious but you are entitled to your opinion n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Yeah, defenders of Hamas/PLO who spew Hamas/PLO anti-Jew talking points & hate liberal zionists....
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 04:55 PM by shira
...are definitely rightwingers. But to be fair, I'll grant he's a Leftwinger.

Part of the Totalitarian Left. Hardly different than the Totalitarian Right. Thus, the label....

New Left = Old Right.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. aren't you conflating Jew with Israel-again?
but it does bespeak of something about Israel hmmm whatever could that be?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. No, he's definitely a Jew hater. Here's an example...
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 05:12 PM by shira
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. No not really the much touted passage has been seen many times
here and elsewhere,but sandandresearth(would that be Gaza?) is quite a site run by a guy with an apparent megalomaniac streak as he has a faux biblical banner on his blog but a some writings from weiss

When they are gathered in the hall it seems like a plenary gathering in the Former Soviet Union. On the stage are the Politburo, 40 or 50 people at tables, most of them old and rich, with name cards in front of them, all revered by the people in the room. The people on the stage establish the new line. The degree of variation from that line will be minimal; the famous Jewish idea that if you have two Jews, you will have three opinions, does not hold here. For the entire conference is psychically built on one issueJewish survivaland on questions of Jewish survival, Jews defer to their leaders, as the Torah shows. There is utter orthodoxy. As I came into the hall for the Shimon Peres speech, two Jewish women (Rae Abileah and Medea Benjamin) were being dragged out kicking and screaming. Their opinions on Gaza were not welcome. The next day when two women interrupted Joe Bidens speech, the whole conference rose as one to applaud and drown them out. Very Brezhnev.

or this

The torment at the heart of my writing here is that I grew up in tribal ways; and I recognized that woman as an older Jew like my parents and my parents friendsin fact I even ran into one of my parents friends there!and the basis of my napkin-biting moment is that AIPAC brought me home to this identification. I put aside my assimilationist feelings, my intermarried goyim-loving feelings, and got back to the fact that this is the community I was raised in and love and have grown out of but still love; and I am not going to be deracinated.

and of course the one that Weiss removed from his blog but Adler and you do not want forgotten
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Why is it so difficult for you guys to condemn blatant anti-Jewish bigotry from the likes of Weiss?
Edited on Tue Nov-01-11 05:38 PM by shira
Then again, if the Progressive anti-zionist Left will not condemn Mearsheimer or Falk for promoting someone like Gilad Atzmon or tear themselves away from someone like Helen Thomas - there's no reason to believe they'd condemn Weiss.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. You guys? just who is you guys?
you seem to be unable to separate individuals in conversation here, resorting to accusations that have little bearing on this conversation, perhaps name dropping to impress or something but no matter this tactic has become rigor for some here it seems?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. Come come, you know, all of us who won't condemn things.
There is so much condemning that needs to be done, and we are just slacking off all the time, leaving the job for others to do, it's just not fair.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
72. Ha ha
She says :" you guys"

You say :"for some here it seems?"

WTF the difference huh?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #29
47. Not entirely. He links to American Conservative on his blog.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #29
60. As strange as " progressives" on DU being
Hostile to gay rights ?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. But no one on DU is hostile to Gay Rights why do know of someone who is? n/t
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. Ha ha
Your joking ? Right ?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Nope but if you are so sure of facts name some n/t
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Naming is not necessary nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #77
80. really I would say it is or is it that you really have nothing here?
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 03:33 PM by azurnoir
seems that it is easy to to cast aspersions on members of DU but rarely do those who cast those aspersions have the courage to back up what they say

the sound of wind whistling through something hollow is quite loud in those types of posts
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. Did not really understand what yor saying. nt
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. you seem to have that problem quite a bit with posters here, don't you ?
a pity really, frank discussion would be so enervating
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. No not really only 1 or so nt
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. You know that would be against DU rules
Being a veteran poster, you know that for sure.

So it begs the question - are you just looking to get this poster tossed for rules violations or what?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. No I am looking for honesty and would myself not alert the and would hope no one else would either
in the past I have allowed a particular poster here a great deal of leeway when I have been told that- I am an antisemite,, anti-white that people like me are why that poster chose to leave the US ect and never once alerted that poster for saying those things, it all depends on what is being discussed
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #85
87. Maybe you can communicate via PM
That way you can get the info you are looking for without anyone having to break the rules.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. PM defeats the purpose here which is to give both sides a chance to state their respective cases
rather than shadowy insults being tossed
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #85
94. me too..
i don't like this whole "alert" business....after all its not so bad to let out some steam and frustration and have so raw feelings getting exposed...hell it might even be healthy so we can live longer and argue some more.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #60
101. None of us are and you know it
We don't have to call for keeping the IDF in the West Bank until LGBT rights are guaranteed by the PA to prove we're pro-LGBT.

You can't end one injustice by continuing ANOTHER injustice.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. Proof ,thanks ,
Gay rights are absolute, there is zero tolerance for discrimnation EVER and absolutely no room for dissent on this.

Gay rights are NOT something that can be put " on hold" while awaiting civilization of a people.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. Worthy of a kick
;)
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. in the ass nt
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. The best article money can buy
Vive La Palestine!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Please read the DU rules nt
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-01-11 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Thanks for kicking
Vive La Palestine!


Indeed

;)
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
45. It's hilarious to see how the" Anti Zionists "(code)
Are treating Goldstone.

Backtrack much ?
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-02-11 10:47 PM
Response to Original message
53. Goldstone's 'apartheid' denial sparks strife
After his famous article earlier this year on Gaza, Judge Richard Goldstone has written a new op-ed, this time seeking to defend Israel against charges of apartheid.

There are numerous problems with Goldstone's piece, but I want to highlight two important errors. First, Goldstone - like others who attack the applicability of the term "apartheid" - wants to focus on differences between the old regime in South Africa and what is happening in Israel/Palestine. Note that he does this even while observing that apartheid "can have broader meaning", and acknowledging its inclusion in the 1998 Rome Statute.

As South African legal scholar John Dugard wrote in his foreword to my book Israeli Apartheid: A Beginner's Guide, no one is saying the two situations "are exactly the same". Rather, there are "certain similarities" as well as "differences": "It is Israel's own version of a system that has been universally condemned".

Goldstone would appear not to have read studies by the likes of South Africa's Human Sciences Research Council and others, who conclude that Israel is practicing a form of apartheid. The term has been used by the likes of Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu, President Jimmy Carter, and Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem.

Goldstone's second major error is to omit core Israeli policies, particularly relating to the mass expulsions of 1948 and the subsequent land regime built on expropriation and ethno-religious discrimination. By law, Palestinian refugees are forbidden from returning, their property confiscated - the act of dispossession that enabled a Jewish majority to be created in the first place.

As an advisor on Arab affairs to PM Menachem Begin put it: "If we needed this land, we confiscated it from the Arabs. We had to create a Jewish state in this country, and we did". Within the "Green Line", the average Arab community had lost between 65 and 75 per cent of its land by the mid-1970s. Across Israel, hundreds of Jewish communities permit or deny entry according to "social suitability". Goldstone's claim that there is merely "de facto separation" rings hollow.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/201111274233586837.html
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-04-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Finklestein says : (ha ha ha ha)
You might recall Irving Kaufman as the judge who pronounced the death penalty on the Rosenbergs. Throughout his subsequent professional career Kaufman did everything he could to rehabilitate his reputation, and to be remembered as a decent liberal. But still he predicted that when he died, the first sentence of his obituary would read, Irving Kaufman, who sentenced Julius and Ethel Rosenberg to death, died yesterday of. And sure enough, thats exactly how every obit began, and ended.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/03112011-finkelstein-on-goldstone-oped/





ha ha ha ha
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Extremist confused N. Finkelstein - not reliable!
Norman G. Finkelstein, The:
A) 'Holocaust denier' or at least trivialize-r {1},

B) openly praying for defeat at the hands of the Islamic terror group Hezbollah and praising those terrorists as "heroes."{2}

C) demonized an author who exposed Anti-Semitism in Germany pre-Holocaust era.{3}

D) He was even (first) on the damned list of "personalities" (joining neo-Nazis) to be attending the Holocaust so called "revisionists" or open deniers, under the dictator leader of the totalitarian Islamic Republic of Iran, the infamous Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in Tehran 2006.{4}

---

Notes:

{1} - http://web.archive.org/web/20040215044347/http://israel.georgetown.edu/ADL-letter.pdf

{2} - http://www.memri.org/report/en/print2575.htm

{3} - http://web.archive.org/web/20021204232909/http://www.goldhagen.com/nda0.html

{4} - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/is-norman-finkelstein-in-_b_36122.html
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. I dislike Finkelstein strongly for reasons that I've previously stated..
http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=359919&mesg_id=360144

But he is not a holocaust denier. He considers that some people involved in creating and administering Holocaust claims are fraudulent; and he is preocccupied with the issue to a degree that reminds me of RW-ers' preoccupation with welfare fraud, and has even described the 'Holocaust industry' as a main cause of antisemitism. But this does not make him a holocaust denier or even trivializer. He considers that the Holocaust happened in the way that is recorded. Indeed, his own parents were Holocaust survivers.

Can't believe I'm defending Finkelstein on anything - but the accusation of Holcoaust denial/trivialization *is* a slander.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. He's a holocaust minimizer who accuses Jews of being the new nazis. He's a vile, despicable excuse
...for a human being.

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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. Agreed.
He's also more of an attention seeker.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #64
102. Finklestein's parents were sent ot the camps by the Nazis
When that was done to someone's parents(who miraculously survived) NO ONE has any right to accuse that person of minimizing the Holocaust. You need to make sure you never repeat that slur again.

All Finklestein is guilty of is rejecting the argument that the Holocaust JUSTIFIES everything Israel does to the Palestinians. Most people reject that view as well. It isn't evil to reject it. That event, horrific as it was, should not be referenced at all in this dispute.

The Holocaust was perpetrated solely by Europeans. Palestinians were not responsible for it-and Palestinians cannot be held responsible for what Al-Husayni said, since he was imposed in his position against their will by the British and maintained in it by the force of British arms.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Calling the victims of the Holocaust Nazis is vile and disgusting. It minimizes what happened...
Edited on Mon Nov-07-11 05:22 AM by shira
...to them and allows neo-nazi pigs and their supporters to claim Jews had it coming to them all along.
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #53
108. No offense but 'al-jazeera' as a "source'?
You are not seious. What was the name of the "Palestinian' linked to terror, that al-Jazeera guy arrested in Israel?
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
57. Refreshing Goldstone Vs Pallywood racist apartheid slur & Arab lobby paid J. Carter
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 11:16 PM by Paulas
Re: The apartheid slur,{1} lie.{2} Which was invented in 1961 (six years before the "occupation" excuse) by AHMAD SHUKAIRY.{3}

Who was (PLO's first chairman) A. Shukairy?

Congressional record: proceedings and debates of the United States Congress: Volume 113, Part 12 - United States. Congress - Govt. Print. Off., 1967 - Page A-525
Shukairy has had a remarkable history. As has been revealed In the pages of Prevent World War III, he worked with the Nazis in the Middle East and was a henchman of the notorious Mufti of Jerusalem who advised Hitler on ways and means of extermintaing Jews...{4}


---

Even "apartheid- slur" promoter: Jimmy Carter (paid by the Arab lobby,{5}deemed to have been influenced by the vast sums of Arab money he has received,{6} has long deep ties with oppressive Arab regimes like Saudi Arabia,{7} had a Syrian committee and a Lebanese committee,{8}and his brother Billy registered as an agent for Libya in 1980,{9}) admitted:
"I recognize that Israel is a wonderful democracy with freedom of speech and equality of treatment under the law between Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis."{10}


--

{1} - http://www.cjnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7936&Itemid=86

{2} - http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/1625/israeli-apartheid-weeks-distortion-of-reality

{3} - http://books.google.com/books?id=vzZ71Eh5QvMC&pg=PA188

{4} - http://books.google.com/books?id=8HEuAAAAIAAJ&dq=henchman

{5] - http://politics.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976879837

{6}- http://books.google.com/books?id=QKraRyoXbvoC&pg=PA135

{7} - http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/12181

{8} - http://books.google.com/books?id=uG6uAAAAIAAJ&q=jimmy+carter

{9} - http://books.google.com/books?id=Mse6AAAAIAAJ&q=jimmy+carter

{10} - http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0612/12/acd.02.html
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-05-11 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
59. Why is it ALWAYS about saying "the world's being unfair to Israel"
Edited on Sat Nov-05-11 11:46 PM by Ken Burch
and NEVER about actually dealing with the issues that have caused the world to lose most of the sympathy it once gave to that particular state?

It's absurd to complain about the use of the word "apartheid" instead of dealing with the things that make Palestinians themselves see apartheid as a valid description of what they are subjected to.

Just once, TRY to listen to these people...try to understand what's been done to them, what they've been through...just once, TRY to see them as human beings rather than an enemy to be crushed.

Is this too much to ask?

(for the record, I'm not sure that apartheid is the correct term to use to describe the situation. But the question of what word people use isn't really the point. The point is to actually try to break out of the destructive and unsustainable status quo...not to worry about the hurt feelings of the dominant party in the dispute. It simply serves no purpose for those who identify as "pro-Israel" to reduce themselves to endlessly repeating "don't call them that".)

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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #59
63. Because the "conflict" began based on Arab-Islamic BIGOTRY
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 07:28 AM by Paulas
* Because the "conflict" began by the infamous fascist {1} Mufti al-Husseini in the 1920s (before all modern excuses were invented). The New York Times correctly described the "riots" as RACE based. {2}

* Because anti-Israel bias has been long documented ( http://camera,org http://honestreporting.com )

* Because most UN reolutions since the 1970s (Arab lobby's occupation of the body) has been against the tiny country {3} struggling to survive. Not against Arab supremacist racist {4} genocide (2,500,000 victims {5}) in the Sudan, not about the use of its own civilians by Arab-Palestinians and Hezbollah to tarnish Israel's image, and not about REAL Apartheid Islamic states all discriminating against minorities..
(As someone has put it: "Israel is the ONLY country in the Middle East that is NOT apartheid."

* Because there is no "Russell Tribunal" on real apartheid regimes:
- Turkey (Vs Kurds, Armenians, Greeks on Cyprus),
- Saudi Arabia (Vs non-muslims, racist slavery on Asian "maids"),
- UAE/Bahrain/Kuwait (Vs. Asian maids "slaves"),
- Bahrain (vs. Shiites),
- Jordan (Vs. Christians, Dom-Gypsies and 'judenrein' Jews),
- Arab-Palestine (Vs. Ahmadis, blacks - grand children of Slaves by the Bedouins, Jews, Christians)
- Libya (Vs. Blacks, Berbers),
- Lebanon (vs. blacks, vs. Arab-Palestnians),
- Morocco/Tunisia/Algeria (Vs. indigenous Berbers),
- Iraq (Vs. Kurds, blacks, Christians),
- Syria (vs. non-Alawites, vs. Kurds),
- Egypt (Vs. indigenous Christians Copts),
- Yemen (vs. al-Akhdam),
- Iran (vs. all non-Muslims, racism against Ahwazi-Arabs, Kurds, Azeris, Turkmen),
- Malaysia (against non-ethnic Malaysians),
- Pakistan (Vs. Hindus, Ahmadi-Muslims), Etc.
While Islam is the world's largest practitioner of both religious and gender apartheid. {6}

* Because if it would not have been a Jewish Democratic state, no "conflict" would have existed.

---

{1}
Muslim Judeophobia is not as is commonly claimed a reaction to the Mideast conflict but one of its main "root causes." It has been fueling Arab rejection of a Jewish state long before Israel's creation.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203440104574400532495168894.html

{2} http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FB0611FA3C5516738DDDAC0894D9415B838FF1D3

{3} http://www.unwatch.org/site/c.bdKKISNqEmG/b.1359197/k.6748/UN_Israel__AntiSemitism.htm

{4} http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html

{5} http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/15/AR2010101503871.html

_____________________________________



Israeli Equality. To tar Israel with that kind of brush is utterly malicious. The exact opposite is the case. Not one single apartheid practice applies to Israel. Israel is by far the most racially mixed and tolerant nation in the entire Muslim Middle East. Arabs, who are about 20% of Israels population, enjoy, without any exception, the same rights and opportunities in all fields as their Jewish fellow citizens. The total equality of all Israelis is assured in Israels founding document. All non-Jews (which means primarily Muslim Arabs) have full voting rights. At present, eleven Arabs sit in Israels Knesset (parliament): Three Arabs are deputy speakers. Arabs are represented in Israels diplomatic service all over the world. Arab students may and do study in all Israeli universities. All children in Israel are entitled to subsidized education until graduation, without any restrictions based on color or religions. In short, Muslim Arabs and other non-Jews are allowed everything that Jews are allowed, everything that non-Whites were not allowed in apartheid South Africa.

But, yes, there is one difference: Jewish Israeli men are obligated to a three-year stint in the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) and serve in the reserve until they are 50 years old. For Arabs, this service is voluntary. Except for the Druze, hardly any Arabs volunteer to serve in the armed forces.

Israel has granted permanent residence and full citizen rights to a large number of legal and illegal foreign workers and their families from the Philippines, Eritrea, Colombia, Nigeria, and from many other countries. Nobody, of course, is forced or requested to convert to Judaism as a condition of their being allowed to stay. Israel has accepted a shipload of Vietnamese refugees who had sought asylum. No Arab country has accepted a single one of those refugees. Israel has brought in about 70,000 black Ethiopian Jews, who have become fully integrated citizens of Israel. Everything that Blacks were not allowed to do in South Africa is totally open to non-Jews in Israel.
http://www.factsandlogic.org/ad_121.html
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. It's wrong to demonize. Like accusing the IDF of the worst motives as you do.
It's one thing to criticize Israel.

The apartheid slander is pure demonization.
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #65
68. I was actually reminding that the 'conflict' began in the 1920s as Islamic anti-Jewish bigotry
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
93. She was responding to my post, not to yours, Paulas.
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 05:03 PM by Ken Burch
And no, it wasn't that simple to say it was "Islamic anti-Jewish bigotry"(there is antisemitism in the Islamic world, but it was always far milder than the antisemitism of "Christian Europe". The Jews of the Arab/Islamic world, for example, survived World War 11 virtually unscathed.

The problem was that there was always a large Arab population in Palestine, a population in the hundreds of thousands.
This population was educated, had their own sense of national identity, cultivated the land(it was NEVER a barren wasteland as some liked to pretend) and were rooted in THAT place.

Many, if not most of those who wanted what became the State of Israel to be created had this notion that Palestine was, essentially, empty(does the phrase "A Land Without People For A People Without Land" ring a bell?).
It led to the belief that the land was simply waiting there for the taking and that no one would have a problem with it being taken(which is absurd, if you look, for example, at how that kind of "Manifest Destiny" notion played out in North America).
This had a lot to do with the conflict.


It's not as if the Zionist movement had an absolute right to usurp that land simply because of who had lived there 2,000 years previously.

The Palestinian leadership has made a lot of mistakes and used a lot of tactics I would never have used, but that doesn't change the fact that the Palestinian people never deserved what happened to them in 1948 and 1967, and any peace settlement will have to recognize that they had and have legitimate grievances and that those grievances would have existed if anyone ELSE had come in an treated them as they were treated.

The problem of antisemitism has not been solved, but inflicting a massive injustice on a group of people who had nothing to do with Hitler's crimes was always going to cause an inherently unstable situation. You can't correct ONE injustice by inflicting ANOTHER injustice...that just doesn't work. And it was totally unreasonable for those who identify as "pro-Israel" to expect the world, after 1967 especially, to support their right to inflict injustice on Palestinians. That was asking too much, especially in an era(the 1960's)where people were learning the truth about colonialism and the colonial, expansionist mindset. Israel itself isn't a colonialist project, but of course the taking of the West Bank and the creation of the settlements were always going to take on a right-wing colonialist cast. How could they not?

(Oh, and as for that fascist scumbag Al-Husseini, or Al-Huysanyi, or however the heck you spell his name...the Palestinians as a people are not to blame for him...they never WANTED him as Mufti. The British IMPOSED him as Mufti after he finished fourth in the voting among Palestinians...so no, the acts of the Mufti do not vindicate the Nakba.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #59
66. On the whole, both in personal and political arguments...
statements that begin "Why is it ALWAYS..." or "Why do you NEVER..." tend to be exaggerated and counterproductive.

It isn't 'always' about saying the world's being unfair to Israel. Some people are exaggeratedly preoccupied with real or imagined injustices done to Israel. Rather more people are exaggeratedly preoccupied with real or imagined injustices done *by* Israel . Sometimes other countries really *are* unjust to Israel. Sometimes Israel really does do wrong or foolish things.

But it's not true that there are no reformists within Israel, or that no one concerned with I/P is interested in seeking constructive solutions. It's true that often both sides end up playing a 'blame game' of being more interested in who's more at fault than at seeking a solution. But your claim that it is 'NEVER ..about dealing with the issues' is just feeding into this game.



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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. anti-Israelism is not Judeophobia, when...
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 09:05 AM by Paulas
Singling out
When one doesn't sinlge out this tiny country, (which is implying being worse than others).

Blaming...
When one criticize the Arab-Islamic side (just as much), that causes (most) of its own civilian deaths.

Israel's factual democracy
When one doesn't try to portray Israel as being different than any other democratic Western society (with its flaws).

'History revionism'
When one doesn't try to revise history, attempting to deny Jews' link to their historic land.


Finding a radical anti-Israel Jew to supprt his/her propaganda, does NOT exonerate one from 'anti-Semitism.'

As Prof. Robert S. Wistrich writes: "It is no accident that both the radical Muslims and the neo-Nazis so eagerly quote from such left-wing anti-imperialists as Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein... as Jewish alibis to cover up their own virulent racism."
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lzs48d3tudsC&pg=PT55

_______________


Casualties in operation... (1) Those so-called "civilians" include many combatants, and 2) Palestinian-Arab routine cruel tactic of using its population)
http://www.ict.org.il/Portals/0/Articles/ICT_Cast_Lead_Casualties-A_Closer_Look.pdf

Culture of Hate
"A racism which denies the history and sufferings of its victims."
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-yeor080202.asp

WashingtonPost article: "Fine Line: Criticizing Israel Without Anti-Semitism" when it entails: misinformation, lies and singling out Israel, disproportionately criticizing Israel."
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/adin_steinsaltz/2007/02/criticizing_israel_without_bei.html

Author laments attempts to "nazify" Israel, that to call it "racist" is a bigoted campaign against Israel being seen the 'Jew' among states.
http://books.google.com/books?id=mOb452lYsJIC&pg=PA151

HuffPost: "It seems that Jews are the only group that you can attack with impunity because they are the only ones unwise enough to tolerate it."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/helen-thomas-and-open-sea_b_602768.html
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #66
89. OK....I'll replace "Always" with "so freaking much of the time".
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 04:32 PM by Ken Burch
better?

And I didn't say I thought there were NO reformists within Israel...just that they seemed heavily outnumbered by the "don't EVER stop!" crowd-even though refusing to stop or change has NOT really ever been a winning strategy for that country.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #59
71. When was the time that the world gave Israel sympathy?
I must have been out of town that week.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Good point
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. or perhaps not yet born in 1967 and 1973? n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. You think Israel had the sympathy of the world during that time?
Moreso than today?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Yes particularly in the US where it has always had sympathy but even more so then
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 03:21 PM by azurnoir
there was not even a lessening when due to US actions during the Yom Kippur war oil was embargoed

eta true France did stop the sale of Mirage jets in 1967 but by and large there was more sympathy take note also after Munich in 1972
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. The US is one country
And I would argue that there is as much or more sympathy for Israel in the US today than ever.

The rest of the world is and has been another story.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Canada Germany ? hmmm how is then that enough abstentions are routinely gotten at the UNSC
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 03:36 PM by azurnoir
to on a number of occasions 'spare' the US having to veto?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #81
88. You are making my argument for me
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 04:30 PM by oberliner
The fact that so many countries (like Germany and Canada) are willing to abstain here shows that the international "sympathy" for Israel, so to speak, is the same or more now than it was in the past (which is the what the other poster was claiming).
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. perhaps amongst government officials but among the public and the young in particular that is not
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 05:14 PM by azurnoir
necessarily true true polls in the US show vaguely defined 'support' for Israel but most of the US is not that concerned in the first place and really has little knowledge other than what is reported on Fox news or CNN ect but for Israels popularity in the US ignorance can be as valuable as knowledgeable support

what the other poster you speak of seemed to saying is that the world has always been against (poor little) Israel which is just not true

edited for 2 spelling mistakes in the title line
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #76
100. Much of the world was cheering Israel on for stealing the West Bank
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 08:08 PM by Ken Burch
The Arabs weren't, but why should they have?

And really, how enthusiastic should sub-Saharan Africa have been expected to be about it, when those conquests looked a lot like colonialism?

(as a child, I admired Israel for what it did in the Six Day War...I'm now ashamed for taking such a foolish, reactionary and ultimately anti-humanist position. Israel didn't need to hold those lands for decades afterwards...and it never had any justification, no matter what, for starting the settlements...they should have let it go at repopulating the displaced indigenous Jewish population of those areas...not bringing in other people who had NO connection to those lands at all, and bringing them in by a total of what is now over a quarter of a million).

The Israeli government doesn't WANT "sympathy"...what it wants is absolute deference from the world, the right to silence discussion and criticism by citing the past suffering of the group Israel purportedly represents, and a guarantee that no one will criticize anything it does to the Palestinians. You do realize that it is completely unreasonable for that government to want those things, don't you? It isn't even good for Israel's "security" for it to want that, because exemption from criticism and discussion in the past hasn't led to anything at all from that government, whichever party led it at the time, but intransigence for the sake of intransigence.

For myself, I feel tremendous sympathy for the world's Jewish communities, especially the ones in Europe that suffered so horribly at the hands of gentiles. It's just that I don't accept that that suffering gives the Israeli government a permanent "Get Out Of Accountability Free Card". Is that an unreasonable position, in your view?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #100
104. i would guess that you win most arguments with yourself....
Edited on Mon Nov-07-11 04:18 AM by pelsar
most of your 'rants' have little to do with what is being discussed here, though i don't think you noticed that......

...what it wants is absolute deference from the world, the right to silence discussion and criticism by citing the past suffering of the group Israel purportedly represents, and a guarantee that no one will criticize anything it does to the Palestinians

i have no idea how you came to such an absurd conclusion, and how its relevant to anything anyone has ever written here....
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #100
111. "Stealing?" Was there ever an independent Arab-Palestine "sovereign" nation?
Not to mention the argument that most Palestinian-Arabs are relatively newcomers...

This language is not only not helpful. But factually wrong.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #71
91. When's the last time that a real case could have been made
that, in the Israel/Palestine dispute, Israel as a country or Israelis as a people were the PRIMARY victims?

There was and is a massive history of persecution of Jewish people in this world. Left people have always spoken out about that. The objection has been to the argument that, because of that history in the Diaspora, Israel could still claim to be the persecuted party in the conflict with Palestinians. Clearly, while a tragic but comparatively small group of Israeli citizens have been bereaved, at least since 1967(and for a significant part of the time BETWEEN 1948 and 1967) the Palestinians have had by far the worst of it in this conflice. And it's silly to ascribe that, or to ascribe Palestinian actions as a whole, as being derived primarily by hatred of Jews, a statement that implies that Palestinians would have been perfectly happy to be forced out of their homes by the hundreds of thousands if only it had been other Arabs doing that to them(yes, the Ottoman and the Jordanians did occupy Palestine, and they weren't saints about it, but they didn't try to make it a Palestinian-free zone while doing so, and that is a massive difference in how Palestinians would perceive the situations.

Those who identify as "Pro-Israel" need to admit, finally, as a group, that most of the Palestinian position is derived from real grievances and genuine injustices-that it isn't about being sore losers or something.

And yes, the question of the camps in Arab countries needs to be addressed, but those who identify as "pro-Israel"(an identification that falsely implies that anyone who disagrees with them about anything is against Israel existing in any form at all) also need to accept that addressing that will not extinquish support of Palestinian nationalism among those released from the camps(Irish immigrants to the U.S. didn't stop being Irish nationalists, and many, especially on the East Coast, financially supported violence for many years in the service of that cause)and that there will need to be at least some ground given on the RoR question(if not full RoR, which is unrealistic, than compensation for those who can't come back TIED TO AN ADMISSION THAT THEY WERE VICTIMS OF AN INJUSTICE and an apology for that injustice).

It's simple, oberliner...Israel as a nation hasn't received much sympathy in recent years because, frankly, it hasn't deserved it. It's been the side inflicting the most suffering(which is not the same thing as saying that no Israelis have suffered, because some have) and the world is probably getting sick of the implication, which Israeli propaganda still refuses to stop making, that Palestinians are the successors to the Nazis. Get it straight already:

The Nazis wanted a Judenrein world.

The Palestinians just want to be free in their own land.

There's a huge difference between those two things.
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. De-legitimization and pro-Genocide in mainstream Arab-Islamic "Palestine"
De-legitimization and pro-Genocide in mainstream Arab-Islamic "Palestine"


* The envisioned "Palestine-Arab-Islamic-apartheid" State is one of the few judenrein countries (jew-free ethnic cleansed, religious-cleansed entities, beside Arab-Islamic Syria/Saudi-Arabia/Jordan) in the world, since Nazi-Germany, as the "moderate" PM Abbas {1} and his ambassador Areikat {2} vouch for a Jew-free state.


* Latest poll show mainstream Islamic-Arab Palestine, not only object to a two state solution, but are even supporting jihadi command of 'killing Jews' While over 50% of Israeli are willing to give them a state.{3}


* Them again, it was always about survival against genocide.{4}

---

Notes

{1} http://www.frumforum.com/abbas-palestine-no-jews-allowed

{2} http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-09-13/palestinian-israeli-jews-future-state-israel-PLO/50394882/1

{3} Jul 15, 2011 More than 60 percent of Palestinians reject a two-state solution with Israel and ...
Seventy-three percent agreed with a quote from the Article 7 in the Hamas Charter, about the need to kill Jews

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493

{4} Attempted genocide From the Start. Israel has always faced (radical Islamic) Arab genocide, To fully understand current conflicts in the Middle East, history must be recalled.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=1248

---

PS
I am still, not equating Nazis with (most) Palestinians, of course.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. If you want to increase Palestinian support for a two-state solution
Edited on Sun Nov-06-11 06:29 PM by Ken Burch
The answer is to work to get the Israeli government to stop insisting on poison pills in that solution(such as Bibi's arrogant demand to have IDF troops completely encircling a Palestinian state, while that state is expected to be demilitarized, thus leaving it totally at the mercy of Israeli military force and thereby making Palestinian sovereignty conditional, rather than permanent, and such as the arrogant demand for the preservation of the major illegal settlement blocs)and to insist that the Israeli government agree that an independent Palestinian state be given control of its own airspace(something every other independent country in the world is granted without question, as far as I know).

You should also be calling for the removal of all the West Bank settlements, especially Ariel, a settlement set in the middle of the West Bank and placed there for the primary purpose of making Palestinian territory non-contiguous. If you can't do that, you should be pushing for, at the VERY least, a permanent moratorium on settlement expansion. You know perfectly well that any such settlement expansion is designed solely to make a Palestinian state unsustainable.

Also, you might call on that government to apologize for the twenty-seven years(1967 to 1994)during which it demonized everyone who called for a two-state solution(when the Israelis always KNEW was the only possible way to end this peacefully).

Also, the PA is NOT demanding a Judenrein Palestine...demanding the removal of the settlements does not equate to that, and they've said that Jews that agreed to accept Palestinian citizenship could remain.

It serves no purpose to keep pretending that this is all the fault of the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world. Both sides bear significant responsibility for this.

The truth is, Palestinians are turning away from the two-state proposal because the Israeli leadership is trying to make that solution into, effectively, a defeat for Palestinians...it's trying to make sure that a Palestinian state is as small(therefore weak)and encircled(therefore helpless) and powerless as possible. This approach can only lead to the perpetuation of the conflict.

There's no reason for Bibi and Co. to try to make a two-state solution into something that Palestinians will choke on. Why is he so obsessed with humiliating them? Does he not get it that trying to force the Palestinians to accept a "solution" that leaves them in a status of subjugation can only lead to the overthrow of any Palestinian leadership that were to accept that status, therefore guaranteeing that the conflict can only continue? If he does get that, why doesn't he care?

Peace can only come when both sides are negotiating as equals, and both sides treat each other as equals. Israel's current leadership either doesn't understand that or doesn't want the war to end at all...and, if it's the second, they are betraying the people who elected them.
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. What 's Israel's words have to do with Palest. deep poisonous indoctrination of annihilating Jews?
* When will we get it that the thrust of the problem is hate?

* What does Bibi's words have to do with glorifying death (Death cult) on national TV, public schools and mosques?

* How did Israel's give-away of Gaza to Arab-Palestinians (2005) bring any peace? On the contrary. Gemocidal Hamas only grew in mainstream Palestine.

* What exactly did you answer about the above quoted Abbas and Areikat vouching for a Jew Free Palestine State?

* Forget Hamas. How about "moderate" Palestine Abbas controlled Fatah official media?

Fatah/Palestinian Authority TV sermon (2010): <i>'Fight The Jews & Kill Them -- They Are Enemies Of Humanity & Allah.'
http://www.zoa.org/sitedocuments/pressrelease_view.asp?pressreleaseID=1809
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. You're obviously just here to spam
And it's not just "words"...it's actions in the past and present, and proposals for the future. Bibi isn't trying to work out peace here...he's obsessed with "winning", when the truth is, "winning" in the old sense, isn't possible in this situation.

Palestinians have legitimate grievances in this...they aren't just the moustache-twirling villains you'd like to pretend they are.
They would have resisted just as fiercely if anyone else had treated them this way. It was never about Israel being "Jewish". If Arabs were as obsessively antisemitic as you paint them to be, there wouldn't have been a million Jewish people living in the Arab/Muslim world during World War Two with no fear of ending up in Hitler's death camps(you do realize that the Arabs could have just put them on boats to Marseilles, under Vichy French control, and they would all have ended up in Treblinka, Auschwitz, Dachau Belsen or the other places of infamy).

It isn't JUST the Palestinians' fault. And it was NEVER as simple as saying "it's because Arabs hate Jews".

And now, after only 7 or 8 posts, you're going to experience the phenomenon of being put on ignore, because you have nothing constructive to say and you have no interest in peace.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-06-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #99
107. Calling either side genocidal is not only not PC, it's factually wrong
The populations of both Israel and Palestine are *increasing*, which is not what happens when there's genocide.

Moreover, Palestine is certainly not uniformly Islamist. Hamas is, but PLO/Fatah is not.

And Palestinians can attack Israel whether or not they are a state, so I don't see that the formalization of statehood makes Israel less secure than otherwise.

Hamas are vile, but let's not treat Palestinians as a monolith, or demonize them.
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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. Sticking head in the sand not seeing FACTUAL Poll of 72% Palestinians pro 'Killing Jews'
Sticking head in the sand not seeing FACTUAL Poll of 72% Palestinian support Islamic 'command' to kill Jews... Won't bring peace.
Again, the LATEST poll ( http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=229493 ) was about ALL Arab-Palestinians!

The demonizers are those shoutuing the empty baseLESS "apartheid" slur!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-07-11 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #98
106. You can't say you're for peace while ignoring/denying all the hate from PA/Hamas media, schools...
Edited on Mon Nov-07-11 05:21 AM by shira
....government, and religious insitutions.

I know, I know - you must deny it and never say a word about it or else some here may take that to mean you're anti-Palestinian and rightwing. In fact, that would let Israel off the hook a little bit! Why, you'd be DEFENDING the occupation!

So go on, keep denying and ignoring all the state-sanctioned hate and incitement coming out of the PA/Hamas.

It's impossible for you to recognize and deal with it, so it's better to focus 100% on Israel and ignore/deny all the PA/Hamas do...

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Paulas Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-08-11 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #98
110. Pallywood: If you don't swallow 'blindly" our propaganda you are "anti-peace" LOL
Edited on Tue Nov-08-11 03:12 AM by Paulas
Pallywood: If you don't swallow 'blindly' our propganda you are "anti-peace" LOL

While in reality: 'Never miss an opportunity - to miss an opportunity' ( http://books.google.com/books?&q=palestinians+%22never+miss+an+opportunity+to+miss+an+opportunity%22 ) - You would guess, after giving them more land 2005 model, after the Gaza-give-away (in return for ZERO) You would get a less radical, less racist, less self-destructive Arab-Palestine...

'Palestine State' is not the issue - their mentality - indoctrination - hate-education IS! ( http://palwatch.org )

The term 'peace.' Peace, peace = also victim in Pallywood Goliath propaganda machine.

You also failed to address the official Jew-free policy of Palestinian Authority (by both Abbas and Areikat) in their planned racist State.
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