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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 04:46 PM
Original message
Turkey commences massive operation against Kurdish rebels in Iraq
About 10,000 elite Turkish soldiers were taking part in a ground offensive against Kurdish rebels in southeastern Turkey and across the border in Iraq on Thursday, making it the nation's largest attack on the insurgents in more than three years, the military said.

The offensive began Wednesday after Kurdish rebels carried out raids near the Turkey-Iraq border that killed 24 Turkish soldiers and wounded 18, the insurgents' deadliest one-day attack against the military since the mid-1990s.

The military said in a statement Thursday that 22 battalions, or about 10,000 soldiers, were taking part in the offensive in southeastern Turkey and northern Iraq, but it did not say how many were in each country.

NTV television said most of the troops were believed to be in Iraq.

It was Turkey's largest such offensive since February 2008, when thousands of ground forces staged a weeklong offensive into Iraq on snow-covered mountains.

The military said the soldiers in the current operation are commandos, special forces and paramilitary special forces - making it an elite force trained in guerrilla warfare. They are being reinforced by F-16 and F-4 warplanes, Super Cobra helicopter gunships and surveillance drones.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/turkey-commences-massive-operation-against-kurdish-rebels-in-iraq-1.391088
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. What are the chances of a Goldstone commission?
Security Council resolution?

Time for the USA to break relations with Turkey? NOW!!!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. No UNHRC outrage. Nothing much from Amnesty, HRW, the media. Maybe it's not really happening.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 04:00 AM by shira
I mean, if it's not reported and there's no outrage it's like it never happened - right?

Then of course there are no Zionists involved.

So, whatever...
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. No Zionists or Jews
There's not much outrage from the right or the left.

Especially none from those who are neither Turkish nor Kurdish nor Muslim.

;)
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Wrong. There are reports going back years but you have to look them up and actually read.
snip* Constitutional amendments and revisions to the Anti-Terrorism Law represented a step towards upholding human rights, but fell short of the fundamental change required. Criminal prosecutions violating the right to freedom of expression continued. Proposed independent human rights mechanisms were not established. Reports of torture and other ill-treatment continued, and criminal investigations and prosecutions of law enforcement officials remained ineffective. Numerous unfair trials were held using anti-terrorism legislation. Bomb attacks claimed the lives of civilians. The rights of conscientious objectors, lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people and refugees and asylum-seekers remained unsecured in law. Minimal progress was made in preventing violence against women.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/turkey/report-2011
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Read the OP. What does your article have to do with Turkey invading Iraq?
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 02:20 PM by shira
Show me where Amnesty has mentioned Turkey's "disproportionate" response.

Where's Amnesty's concern about Iraqi civilian victims of Turkey?

Or Amnesty's eyewitness accounts from Iraqi civilians WRT possible Turkey war crimes?



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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. I responded to YOUR statements, I already read the OP.
You have made clear, there are no human rights group you respect, not the UN, not the ICJ..no one.

I gave you the link to Amnesty Int'l, they keep account of Turkey's human rights issues, whether you appreciate that
or not is of no concern of mine. I added this so anyone looking at your post can read the link I left and
consider the situation for themselves.

Considering what has transpired recently, AI will do what they do, and look into it.


Consider employing a guide, it might help.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. And the point is, as was explained previously, hypocritical silence by all those faking poutrage...
...when it comes to pretty much anything Israel does.

One standard for Israel, another for all other countries.

Only the willfully blind would deny it.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. You've already falsely claimed the human rights group and the UN don't care..you
have been proven wrong, again.

You have no outrage you said, but someone else should, lol.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. No, they really don't care. Not even about Palestinians.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 07:26 PM by shira
Palestinians are mistreated by their own Palestinian leadership (children as combatants, shields, suicide bombers) and in other countries who treat their refugees worse than Israel (genuine apartheid, not fake charges of it, mass slaughters, etc).

No outrage there either. No UN resolutions, calls for warcrimes from HRW, Amnesty, etc...

So it's not surprising to see no outrage WRT Turkey/Iraq when the same pro-Palestinian Left could care less about Palestinians abused by anyone other than Israelis. If they can't be bothered to care about Palestinians - whose rights they champion - abused by non-Israelis, why should they be expected to care about anyone else?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
74. From HRW recently
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Right, from 6 weeks ago. Not much in comparison to their output WRT Israel. No UN resolutions...
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 01:46 PM by shira
No conferences at universities, no large demonstrations in the streets anywhere with rally cries of "WE ARE ALL PKK", no calls for boycotts and sanctions, no aid convoys, no saturation frontpage media coverage, no calls to end the Cyprus occupation.

:eyes:

This is a MAJOR military invasion that has gone largely unnoticed worldwide and there's no point even trying to deny the double standard.

The situations in Libya and Syria - with thousands of civilian deaths attributed to NATO bombing from very high altitudes or Assad's death squads - and the relative silence in comparison to Israel is just more proof.


======


Tell me LB...

What do you make of Richard Falk's endorsement of Gilad Atzmon's latest book, 'The Wandering Who?' No big deal? Why aren't HRW and Amnesty calling for his immediate dismissal from the UNHRC as special rapporteur for Palestinian Human Rights in the territories? Falk was calling Israel a Nazi state from the very start, before he was appointed by the UNHRC. Not a peep of disgust or concern from Amnesty and HRW. What do you make of all this?

:shrug:
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 04:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. at least 17 civilians, have been killed since mid-July.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Perhaps the Kurds should petition the UN for statehood
I would be willing to support that would you?
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vminfla Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. There actually was a Kurdistan
Kurds have their own ethnic identity and culture, managed to self-govern effectively, and once actually had their own independent nation. I would also petition for the creation of a Somaliland based on these same criteria.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. Obama, EU lead condemnation of PKK attack on Turkey
BRUSSELS | Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:49pm BST

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama and the European Union led a chorus of Western condemnation of Kurdish rebel attacks on Turkey on Wednesday, voicing support for Ankara as its forces launched retaliatory air and ground assaults in Iraqi Kurdistan.

Obama vowed to continue U.S. cooperation with Turkey in facing the PKK, or Kurdistan Workers Party, which killed 24 soldiers in simultaneous raids on seven remote army outposts on Turkey's rugged southeastern border with Iraq before dawn.

in full: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/10/19/uk-turkey-kurds-reaction-idUKTRE79I5EM20111019
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Security Council? Goldstone ?
Arrest warrants ?

Blogs?

DU forum along with tombstoned haters?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You'll need to reconcile the support Obama and the EU are giving Turkey.
You support Obama and the Democrats on their complete support of Israel, no matter what..yet you have an issue
with his decision on Turkey. You disagree with Obama, evidently.

I suggest you write/phone your elected reps and the White House..express your outrage, ask them why they're doing
this.

Let us know how they respond.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It's more enlightening watching how
Bloggers with no connection to the situation are responding. ( ie; none)

As compared to those with no connection to The Jewish State, how they respond.

That is far more interesting to myself and a lot of other people.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So you don't agree with Obama but you'll voice no questions nor
your concerns to your elected reps, nor the White House. Instead you're more interested in
what people who have in your estimation no connection to neither Turkey nor Israel and how they respond or not; this
being a more prevalent concern to you.

You have an interesting way of showing concern for the Kurdish rebels.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I was pointing out motivation
I know what morivates my interest and concern for Israel in the IP.

I have no horse in this race. I have no hate for either side .
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You were attempting to point out motivation by proxy, I see.
I don't think the Kurdish rebels would appreciate that but whatever.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think u got it


;)
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Yea, I got it, but I don't understand why you were so disingenuous
about the Kurds. To use their situation that way is unfortunate. Turkey has evolved on many levels very positively
but they have not applied it as much as they should toward the Kurds. To suggest that anyone in the I/P forum
is not sympathetic to their problems would be presumptuous on your part.

Turkey's Kurds long for "Kurdish Spring"

..DIYARBAKIR, Turkey (Reuters) - With its booming economy, secular democracy and growing clout, Turkey is often cited as a role model for Middle East nations gripped by popular revolt. But Hulya Yildiz, a mother of three in the impoverished Kurdish southeast, tells a darker story.

The use of Kurdish, the mother tongue for up 15 million Kurds in Turkey, is banned at her children's school. Scores of Kurdish activists and mayors have been arrested in recent security crackdowns. Army operations and Kurdish guerrilla attacks make even a family picnic in the woods too dangerous.

"I would like to live in a city where we could take our kids to picnics on weekends. We don't have that freedom because we don't know if a bomb will explode or if there will be clashes," said Yildiz, a civil servant in the Kurdish city of Tunceli.

She was speaking days before Turkey launched air and ground assaults on Kurdish militants in Iraq in retaliation for the killing on Wednesday of 24 Turkish soldiers in one of the deadliest Kurdish attacks in decades.

"If a family is afraid to take their kids to picnics you can't talk about democracy," she said. "The prime minister (Tayyip Erdogan) has travelled to all problematic countries during this year, but he should come here and listen to his people's demands. Why can't we have a 'spring' like the Arabs?"

The so-called Turkish model has fascinated reformists from Rabat to Sanaa to Riyadh at a time of popular revolts against repressive autocrats known as the "Arab Spring".

With its blend of economic liberalism and social conservatism, Muslim Turkey has become one of world's fastest-growing economies and has carved out a new and more assertive identity on the global stage.

But while Erdogan has become a hero for millions of Muslims abroad by urging Arab leaders to embrace freedom and democracy and by championing Palestinian rights, Turkey's Kurds say Erdogan should first focus on problems at home.

A three-decade-old Kurdish separatist conflict has claimed the lives of more than 40,000 people and drained hundreds of billions of dollars from the European Union candidate country.

"The Kurdish problem is a serious handicap for the Turkish model and an obstacle to regional stability," said Sinan Ulgen, from the Istanbul-based Center for Economics and Foreign Policy Studies thinktank.

"Despite its economic development and its modernization Turkey has been unable to solve the Kurdish issue. As time goes by the problem will only become harder to solve."

An International Crisis Group report last month said that with instability in neighboring Syria, where President Bashar al-Assad has unleashed his military on protesters, and a planned pullout of U.S. troops from Iraq, Ankara must take courageous steps to resolve its "most urgent and dangerous problem".

PESSIMISM

After a sound victory in a June election, Erdogan raised hopes of an end to conflict when he vowed to press ahead with cultural and political reforms for Kurds, reversing harsh state policies aimed at assimilation that bred Kurdish resentment.

But pessimism soon set in as violence escalated once again.

Following a surge of attacks by Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) rebels, Turkey's military has over the last three months launched air and artillery operations.

In a nationwide sweep last month, Turkish police arrested more than 140 pro-Kurdish political activists, including a number of elected mayors, for alleged links to Kurdish militants. The activists joined 3,000 others who have been locked up, many on flimsy evidence under Turkey's harsh anti-terrorism legislation.

"We are even afraid to go to the teahouses," Huseyin Kara, 60, a Kurdish farmer and father of five children, said at a teahouse. "There's no way of guessing when and where you could get killed.

"Seeing how much importance the government is placing on Syrians and Palestinians, it's surprising to see that they are doing nothing for the Kurdish problem. The Kurdish problem is more important than the Arab Spring. We live in an era of rapid solutions, except for the Kurdish issue."

For years, the political establishment in Ankara and in Istanbul ignored the plight of the Kurds, who comprise a fifth of Turkey's population. Turkey's state nationalism refused to recognize the Kurds' existence, and Kurdish language and culture were banned, while the army waged all-out war against the PKK.

Erdogan, whose AK Party took office in 2002 with a reformist agenda, pushed through limited cultural and linguistic reforms to improve the rights of Kurds under changes designed to win Turkey's EU accession.

But Kurdish politicians say more fundamental political reforms are necessary. Some say frustration at the pace of reform has led to larger numbers of Kurdish youths joining the PKK.

Emin Aktar, head of the Bar Association in Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in the southeast, said it was time to break the cycle of violence on both sides and engage in dialogue.

"We underline once again as lawyers from Diyarbakir that the road to a solution passes through dialogue and not arms."

Government plans to rework Turkey's constitution, which was written under military tutelage after a 1980 coup, offer the chance of a new start, Ulgen said.

The issue of greater rights for Kurds is likely to dominate the debate on a new charter, which Erdogan has said he wants to be completed by mid 2012.

The Peace and Democracy Party (BDP), the largest pro-Kurdish party in parliament, wants school education in Kurdish and a new formulation of Turkish citizenship to include ethnic Kurds. But such concessions might spark a nationalist backlash.

"It's nice to see Erdogan working for peace in the Middle East, but there is bloodshed here in this region," said Mehmet Emin Yak, 45, a civil servant. "A man who has devoted himself to peace should take a step toward peace in Turkey."

(Editing by Mark Heinrich and Sonya Hepinstall)
http://news.yahoo.com/turkeys-kurds-long-kurdish-spring-140502631.html
..
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Against the Kurds or the Turks?
While I realise that most of your posts are incontinent dribble, I must say I am completely unable to follow your logic here. You are suggesting that arrest warrants should be issued for whom, exactly?
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Kurska Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-20-11 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. You very well do understand the point being made.
He is clearly not advocating for specific people to be arrested, but pointing out the dissonance between how this situation is being treated and how the gaza situation was treated.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I don't think he understands the point he is trying to make...
he has posted an article about a Kurdish attack on civilians, and followed it up with a post claiming that the US should cut all ties with Turkey, which leaves me mystified as to whether he's criticising the Kurdish attack or the Turkish response. If he's trying to construct some sort of analogy, presumably he thinks that either Turkey or the Kurds are in a position that is analagously comparable to Israel. I honestly have no idea which.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. Well I do not really understand the point you are

attempting to make here. ( and I am sure nobody else did,if they are honest that is)

Speak of incoherent !

Maybe it would help you if you re-worded it?

Or just forget it,don't reply and we can all ignore that post.

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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Try cut the personal attacks if you want a reply
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 06:49 AM by King_David
I do not feel like replying to an incoherent angry impulsive post .

You gotta control your anger bud, this is just an Internet forum.

Take a walk or a swim on the beach.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
14. its just interesting the contrast....
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 03:23 AM by pelsar
with the turkish attacks, the 6 month civilian killing NATO attacks in Libya vs the I/P conflict in terms of news.

Clearly there are differences in the news coverage and with good reason, Israel for the most part allows for freedom of the press, hi tech communications, relativly safety and for the most part for the journalists security knowing the IDF is not going to shoot them, not to mention comfortable living conditions and always something to write about....

Also, the IP conflict has much more interesting characters: jews, zionists, capitalists, socialists, nationalists, colonialists, religious, muslims, christians, arabs, english speakers....much easier to pick a target whatever you bone is.


Libya, a NATO operation, involved bombs dropped from 15,000 ft and above-this makes for lots of mistakes, lots of dead civilians, of which we heard very little (and what journalist would trust his rebel handlers?), but then again it was NATO/US/Arab League approved killing operation.....that pretty much limits the UN's interest in it.

and the Turks?......i rather doubt we're going to see much in terms of interviews of the dead kurdish relatives, war crime accusations etc. Part of it will be the limited coverage, the lack of sophisticated use by the kurds of the international courts and UN, but more will be they don't have international interest by the left wing community for creating blogs, creating forums on western left wing sites, seminars, protests on western college campuses going year after year. It could simply be poor PR on their part, but the contrast is rather stark.

its just the reality and it would be foolish to claim that there is no difference.

(and just for fun, it could be why the turks got really quiet in terms of israel....i guess they didn't want their planes shot out of the sky by Israeli supplied anti aircraft weapons.....)
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. As long as you realise it cuts both ways...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 05:46 AM by shaayecanaan
"15 Israelis die in suicide bombing in Jerusalem."

"15 Turks die in PKK suicide bombing."

"15 Kurds die in raid by Turkish army."

Which headline do you think would make the front page of most western newspapers? Do you think the world cares more for dead Jews or dead Kurds?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. PR is part of the conflict....
obviously one can't let the demonization of israelis/jews go without an answer...the past days of the pogroms, blood libels where the jews were passive are long gone, PR is another part of the war.

The world doesn't give a shit for either dead jews or dead kurds.....or even dead Palestinians for that matter....its simply a matter of agendas for the various groups that are involved, and where would it be best to "do your thing".

its just more comfortable in israel, and safer......
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #27
36. .
:thumbsup:
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
50. Then may the best team win...
the object of propaganda is to cast the other side in a bad light. The Israelis do this, the Palestinians do it. The only difference is when the Palestinians do it successfully the Israelis bitch and mewl and complain about "delegitimisation". Its an unedifying spectacle.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #50
67. theres more involved...since its more than sports....
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 02:00 AM by pelsar
both sides bitch when they "loose", thats hardly unnatural, the problem is that there are real long term repercussions to the loss or win. You might notice that each side invokes its own version of morality as well, that too has long term effects and again lives are at stake.

being a western liberal as i am, i go for the team that shares my same values, thats israel.....the one that doesn't agree that "the ends justifies the means" as per one example. (Not only has hamas confirmed their view that killing civilians is the way to go, so too have the celebrations other parts as well......thats today, Sept, 2011)

the other team has a different set of values, very anti liberal, anti western, that I believe is destructive to not only their own society but to the general geographic area as well (israel) and should not be allowed to solidify and expand upon those values.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #67
85. So you only support Israel to the extent that it is western and liberal?
Do you feel that Israel is getting more liberal by the day or less?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. Interesting comment
"(and just for fun, it could be why the turks got really quiet in terms of israel....i guess they didn't want their planes shot out of the sky by Israeli supplied anti aircraft weapons.....)"

so your saying Israel is or will supply the PKK?

maybe so but maybe no

According to a report in Yedioth Ahronoth, Lieberman assembled a team in charge of retaliating against Turkey. The team reportedly recommended to Lieberman that Israel should cooperate with the terrorist organization PKK and even consider supplying it with weapons.

Another suggestion was to offer assistance to the Armenians and file UN reports against Turkey for violating human rights of Turkey's minorities.

PKK leader Murat Karayılan told the pro-PKK Firat news agency on Monday that his group is a principled organization and that it is not a movement that could be used against any state, the Turkish newspaper reported.

The PKK leader said that if Israel wishes to solidify relations with the group, they will first need to apologize to the Kurdish people and the PKK for its part in an international effort that led to the capture of the PKKs leader.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/after-turkey-pkk-now-also-demanding-apology-from-israel-1.384197

interesting indeed
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
21. Turkey has invaded Iraq in a major military operation. No outrage from the right or left. Why?
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 12:02 PM by shira
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15390006

Major military offensive against Iraq.

Why the silence?

:shrug:

:eyes:
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. snip*
In Washington, where Erdogan's quest for influence among fellow Muslim states has caused some unease, Obama offered clear support: "The United States will continue our strong cooperation with the Turkish government as it works to defeat the terrorist threat from the PKK and to bring peace, stability and prosperity to all the people of southeast Turkey," he said.

The PKK said in an Internet statement: "Our guerrillas carried out simultaneous attacks starting at 1 a.m. (2200 GMT) on regiments in the center of Cukurca district and at Bilican and surrounding military posts ... Nearly 100 soldiers and special forces police have been killed or wounded."

Many Kurds, however, have placed their hopes in talks with the government and have grown weary of violence.

Speaking to Reuters by telephone from the Turkish town of Cukurca, Kurdish accountant Mehmet Tek, 39, said: "It wasn't possible to sleep last night due to heavy gunfire.

"After hearing the news about the attack last night, we were devastated. Politicians need to do something urgently."

Shopkeeper Hayati Inan, 41, also an ethnic Kurd, said: "We've seen military helicopters come and go all day since morning. These attacks, killings sadden us deeply. Enough is enough. We don't want to see any weeping mothers anymore."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/19/us-turkey-kurds-idUSTRE79I0YF20111019
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. No warnings of a disproportionate response? Poutrage at civilian deaths?
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 01:53 PM by shira
As to the article you cited, what's your point?

Bush supported a US ally in Israel vs. Lebanon in 2006. Same reasoning here, supporting a US ally in Turkey WRT Iraq. Why no similar world outrage at Turkey?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. Your question was:
Turkey has invaded Iraq in a major military operation. No outrage from the right or left. Why?
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 01:02 PM by shira
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15390006

Major military offensive against Iraq.

Why the silence? (end)

You made no mention of the US position, now you have it. Since you're outraged, I imagine you have already phoned
and emailed your elected representative and the White House to express your deep concerns.

Why wait for someone else to do your work for you? You might want to ask Skinner if you can begin a Turkey/Kurds forum.
Then you can have a platform for how AI and HRW etc are taking Turkey's side and ignoring the Kurds, it could have the makings of a hell of forum.

This is I/P btw.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. No outrage here. Just remarking on the hypocrisy, that's all. n/t
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. You have no outrage, no concern, but you're waiting for someone
else to do it....must be some intense emotions you have for the Kurds.


btw, back in august statements were issue to Turkey..but since you have no concern..perhaps just skip it.

UN, US and EU to Condemn Turkey-Iran Attacks on Kurdistan Region
August 27, 2011 | Baghdad, Iraq
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-661308
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. The hypocrisy is with those who usually feign outrage WRT Israel but are silent WRT to most...
...everything else that tends to be magnitudes worse.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. According to you there is nothing to be outraged about, or did you forget that part of
your response earlier?

Get a guide or some sort of assistant.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. You don't get it. It's you and your trusted sources who feign outrage at anything Israel does...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 07:18 PM by shira
...to Palestinians, Lebanese, Turks, etc.

However, when other countries are at it and doing far worse, there's no outrage.

Same reason there's no outrage from the pro-Palestinian Left WRT Hamas and the PA practicing apartheid against refugees under their control. Or using impressionable Palestinian children as human shields, suicide bombers, or combatants.

The point is that the pro-Palestinian Left doesn't really care about anyone, Palestinian or otherwise and that's why there's no outrage.

They share an irrational hatred, however.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. You're wrong, you want to ignore the links indicating what AI 's statements
have been, and the UN's.

You're completely ridiculous.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Stop, this is too funny when you're defending the UN...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 08:00 PM by shira
The same UN that empowered Richard Falk to be special rapporteur of human rights in the territories.

The very same Richard Falk who is a big fan and promoter of Gilad Atzmon's latest pro-Hitler nazi stormfront KKK ramblings.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=366022&mesg_id=368260

Notice no one on the Left, whether from Amnesty to HRW, from the Free Gaza Movement to the Mondoweiss crowd, Norman Finkelstein, you name it - no one at all on the allegedly pro-Palestinian peaceful Left has even once called for that antisemitic disgrace of a human being to step down from his position of "human rights special rapporteur" to the territories?

That pretty much proves the entire movement is pretty fucking rotten to the core.

Of course, to anyone not willfully blind.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #49
52. You already made yourself clear,......there exists
NO human rights group, nor the UN, even though they condemned Turkey, and other countries, and the ICJ has
also discredited themselves, they are useless. They must indeed all have it out for Israel. I wonder if you believe
they work in concert to pull this off.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. No decent person can possibly back the UN for empowering a pro-nazi advocate like Richard Falk...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 08:09 PM by shira
...to be special rapporeteur in the territories.

A virtual one man jew-hating judge and jury whose job is to focus especially on Israel.

It's okay, I know you don't see it that way. You cannot see it that way. No one wants to admit they support evil.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Are these the same indecent people that support Save the Children I guess.
Save the Children, an organization you have presented as accessory to and I quote, " big time war crimes"

Those same indecent people I presume you're referring to, ok.


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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. You don't see a problem with Richard Falk being UN special rapporteur of human rights in the OPT...
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 08:24 PM by shira
Am I right?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. They could take the guy and remove him from his position and
you'd see the UN the same way..so why focus on him?

What I think of Richard Falk is irrelevant, as each human rights group has detailed for years
the damage to the Palestinians from Israeli policy. The ICJ has determined the illegality of the wall and then some.

Take Falk and send him to the moon for all I care, that will not change anything about which Israel
is responsible.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. They won't. He's been special rapporteur for years WRT Palestinian rights
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 08:59 PM by shira
Nothing he has written about the Jewish state should be taken seriously.

I'm sure you disagree. After all these years, he somehow got everything right WRT Israel.

:eyes:

You make it a point to attack sources you believe not to be credible.

Will you do so with Falk?

LOL.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. He is irrelevant shira. Nothing would change, not one report from
B'Tselem, nor HRW, nor AI. Falk removed won't change the 2004 ICJ advisory ruling either.

Save the Children would not change their findings about the Palestinian children, would not change anything for you, I realize this.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Should any of Falk's UN rantings WRT Israel over the years be taken seriously?
Remember, you specialize in attempting to discredit sources you deem unreliable WRT I/P issues.

Try to remain consistent.

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. I already told you.
Falk is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, take the UN out of the
equation all together since you find them so untrustworthy. There, feel better now?

What you're left with is more than ample documentation collectively from the various respected human rights groups and
the ICJ ruling..that suits me just fine.

Nothing has changed, Israel remains responsible for their actions, the aggressor, the occupier, the settlements
continue today.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. I know, you're incapable of admitting Falk's work WRT Israel is garbage.
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 09:15 PM by shira
You're holding out hope that all he's done as a promoter of neo-naziism in his role as special critic of Israel is spot-on.

It must somehow be true.

It HAS to be.

Pathetic.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. You're not happy the UN is out of the equation? What a shock.
So long shira.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. The UN is now out of the equation for you? Discredited? Say it isn't so! LOL. n/t
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 09:21 PM by shira
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. For you shira, and yet nothing changes regarding Israeli responsibility
to the Palestinians, the documentation is very strong else where.

Maybe you really do need an assistant to get through a thread.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #64
69. Of course, to you the UN is still credible WRT Israel. Remember that next time you attempt...
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 06:41 AM by shira
...to discredit other sources you don't believe to be credible.

The UN's special rapporteur on Palestinian human rights, whose specific mandate is to criticize Israel, is a big supporter of neo-nazi literature. When Falk was appointed, he had already compared Israel to the Nazis WRT their treatment of Palestinians. You obviously don't see the problem with that either, but taking the worst crime ever perpetrated against a people and then using that to bludgeon those very same people is unconscionable and grotesque antisemitism.

All his work - as well as the UNHRC which continues to employ him - is credible to you. And to this day, not one major Human Rights organization like HRW or AI has called for his dismissal.

Not surprising you can't see a problem here, but nonetheless...

Disgusting.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. I'll let you remember shira, there is no group you find credible..none.
Most especially your conclusion that Save the Children is an accessory to "big time war crimes", lol.

Even if I tried, I doubt I could ever forget that one.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. When 'Save the Children' can't muster any condemnation for child suicide bombers, militants, shields
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 07:45 AM by shira
....who are exploited by Palestinian leadership, we are to overlook that and keep believing they're a credible organization WRT all issues I/P.

Yes, I'll remember your stance on this one as well.

All those Palestinian children you purport to care about....

Why should anyone support STC's work WRT anything I/P related when they don't find it necessary to stand up for children whose rights are cynically and grossly violated by Palestinian leadership?

Try answering that one without an 'lol' if you can.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Because you have no evidence to support your baseless claims, thats why.
snip* Though his Save the Children project focuses on Gaza's side of the dispute, Pellegrin is careful to avoid bias. 'I cover both sides in my photography,' he says. 'I know many photographers who work just on the Palestinian side, but I've always tried to represent both.

'I have photographed victims of suicide attacks in Israel and obviously I condemn those actions. It's easy to put an entire people in a box. I don't divide the world into the good and the bad.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7682213/Gaza-Strip-the-children-with-nowhere-to-hide.html

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. Here's an example of STC violating its mandate providing a 1-sided anti-Israel political analysis...
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 12:52 PM by shira


That was 2004.

Presented to the very same UNHRC you find credible despite appointing a promoter of neo-nazi filth to specialize in condemning Israel.

Not a word in that STC report - or anything from that year - about PA or Hamas exploitation of child militants, suicide bombers, or shields.

Care to defend that with something besides mocking, condescension, or deflection?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. The link I left you does not mock Israel, you have a screw loose, I think.
The report is suppose to say what you believe it should say I guess for 2004..omg!

I already told you three times now, you can subtract the UN from the equation all together
and you would be left with NO human rights groups, nor the Save the Children
group, nor Physicians for Human Rights, Israel, that you accept as credible.

NO ONE is fair to Israel, Falk is a promoter of neo-Nazi filth too.


I have no interest in defending your position, but I am documenting it.






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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. You're doing it again with your mocking and condescension. Please answer....
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 05:27 PM by shira
How do you defend STC not reporting against PA/Hamas gross violations of Palestinian children rights?

Why should any decent person support STC?
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I don't defend your positions, I can't make it any more clear than that.
You haven't been able to do it either, it is hilarious you ask others to do your work.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. You were wrong about STC's neutrality. You can't admit there's anything wrong w/Richard Falk.
Edited on Sun Oct-23-11 05:47 AM by shira
The UNHRC is still credible in your opinion. Human Rights groups like Amnesty and HRW are fine with you as well, for not raising even a peep of concern about Richard Falk's disgusting bigotry.

And of course if neo-naziism within the human rights community is okay with you then certainly organizations like STC are reliable and credible as well and nothing will change your mind about them either.

:eyes:

You've got nothing but mocking and condescension in response. Nothing substantive.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. The link says otherwise and you offer once again that the alleged
silence is menacing proof of your claims against them.

I am confident most people can figure it out.

Falk, as I have said repeatedly, is irrelevant. Take the entire UN body away and
what you're left with are human rights groups documentation and the ICJ ruling...more than ample information..which you reject outright.

This would not exempt the Israeli government of their responsibilities, that being,
their quest for the West Bank for THEIR state..at any cost. The Palestinian Papers
substantiate that quite well.

I don't care what you do with Falk but your need to consider him a neo-Nazi is baseless and the anti-semitism charge is ridiculous.
What one could say of Falk is that he is ineffective because he lacks the discipline to be specific, to take care in what he
can and can't support. The Palestinians do not need his sloppy representation.

There is no group you respect, you are not interested, period...that much is clear.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-23-11 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. The anti-semitism charge wrt Falk is ridiculous? Tell me, do you think Atzmon is an antisemite? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. gee I don't know why don't explain it for us shira?
Edited on Fri Oct-21-11 12:41 PM by azurnoir
we'll be waiting?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. If it needs to be explained to you, then it's pointless to do so. You get one guess. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. so your comment was simply 'blowing wind'? I asked you to explain what you meant
not to play guessing games
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. You honestly don't know what I meant? n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #40
66. it seems you honestly do not want to say outright, why is that? n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #66
70. I know you know the answer. See #47 above. n/t
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. yes we all know how much you 'care' for the Palestinians n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. It's not whether I care or not. The pro-Palestinian contingent purports to care about Palestinians
The thing is, they don't.

So it's not surprising they don't care about anyone else - whether in Palestine, Libya, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, N.Korea, or Sudan.

They're irrational haters who care for no one but themselves.
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King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. .
:thumbsup:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
51. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-21-11 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #51
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #65
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
75. More on this depressing and important topic...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/19/us-turkey-kurds-feature-idUSTRE79I3V420111019

Not sure why this is in I/P, though a general Middle East forum might be a good idea.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-22-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Kurdistan -all of it is divided between 4 countries
Edited on Sat Oct-22-11 12:32 PM by azurnoir
The biggest portion being in Turkey with Iraq being next and then Iran and Syria

as far as why this is in I/P well current goings on between Turkey and Israel should answer that

eta link

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.politicalresources.net/kurdistan.htm&h=1138&w=1066&sz=230&tbnid=AI-7UW2fyYYexM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=84&prev=/search%3Fq%3DKurdistan%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=Kurdistan&docid=AkJ4-vEukFsazM&sa=X&ei=6fyiTq2MHMXnsQL8oNyLBQ&ved=0CFEQ9QEwBg&dur=748
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