Israeli police: Settlers killed by stones thrown at car

[oberliner]

HEBRON (AFP) -- An Israeli settler and his 18-month-old son were killed when the man lost control of his car after being hit by stones hurled by Palestinians, Israeli police said Sunday.

"Preliminary results of the investigation lead us to conclude that the father was hit in the head by a stone, which made him lose control of the vehicle," police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told AFP, adding the crash occurred Friday.

The settler, 25-year-old Israeli-American Asher Palmer, and his son Yonathan lived in the Kiryat Arba settlement near Hebron in the southern West Bank.

Police had initially ruled out an attack against the car.

On the day of the crash, Palestinians had hurled stones at settlers' vehicles, particularly in the region where the settler and the child were killed.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=423618

[provis99]

1. "Jewish settler holds sign reading 'revenge'".

well, that's typical of the settler mentality. I wonder how many Palestinian children they plan on murdering for revenge?

I notice that a dead Israeli gets a headline, while the dead Palestinian only gets a one-line mention in the article, and while the Israeli died accidentally, the Palestinian was deliberately killed by the army.

[polichick]

2. I don't get why people are so willing to "settle" on land that isn't theirs...

Palestinians have so little land left. The whole thing is just crazy.

[oberliner]

7. Hebron and environs

Usually the 1929 massacre is cited.

[Poll_Blind]

3. His chief rabbi was Dov Lior. So the answer is: All of them.

Dov Lior was the rabbi who put the hit out on Rabin.

PB

[Poll_Blind]

4. And here we go, Dov Lior is just like clockwork:

'Collective punishment against rioters'

PB

[King_David]

5. OK ,I guess that murder of an 18 month kid is ok then .

:eyes:

[vminfla]

8. The 18 month kid was a legitimate miltary target

He would have grown up to serve in the Israeli Defense Force. This was a pre-emptive strike.
/sarcasm

[azurnoir]

9. Remember Amira Abu Aser? was she a legit target?

After the IOF besieged al-Smiri’s house, the IOF opened fire at it intensively under helicopter cover. It ordered the family, through loud speakers, to leave the house. The family and their guests left the house, except for Yousef al-Smiri who fled.

According to affidavits given to Al Mezan by witnesses, the family and the guests left the house as they were instructed by the IOF. The house’s outside lights were on and the IOF kept its light on them the entire time. However, the soldiers continued shooting and, consequently, the mother Nadia Abu Aser was hit by a live bullet to her left arm. Her infant daughter, Amira, was injured by a live bullet to her head. Also, the shooting injured four other residents of the house.

After the IOF withdrew from the area at approximately 10:10pm that day, the injured were transferred to Shuhda’a al-Aqsa Hospital in Deir Balah town, where the death of the infant was announced. The mother was reported to have sustained moderate injury.

There is reason to believe that Yousef al-Smiri was murdered after being stopped. After he fled his house, his body was found at approximately 10:00am the next day (5 March). Believing that he escaped from the IOF, the neighbors found al-Simiri’s lifeless body lying in an open area about 150 meters from his house. When the body was examined at the hospital, a live bullet was found in his chest, and his head was crushed.

http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-man-assassinated-and-run-over-baby-shot-head/3338#.Tox3EOwsKPw

but I do understand its always worse for some when its an Israeli baby

however for others me for instance no child should be suffering or killed in this its terrible and tragic

[oberliner]

10. The IOF? What is that?

Interesting source and nomenclature.

Also, from someone who doesn't like "look over there" posts, this seems to be one.

[azurnoir]

11. oh so predictable I was waiting for that reply

IOF means Israeli Occupation Forces is that really so new to you? it was not a look over there is was in answer to the claims about the Israeli baby pure and simple but thanks your post made my points

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

14. as is yours for the Palestinan baby it was in answer to claims the Israeli baby was targeted

but I see when it's a Palestinian baby it's fake or at least according to one poster here however the original story came Al Mezan Center for Human Rights

At approximately 7:45pm on 4 March 2008, the IOF, backed by five military jeeps and four tanks, penetrated 1 km into eastern Wadi As Salqa village in central Gaza Strip. The IOF surrounded the home of 40-year-old Yousef Sulaman Assmiri, located along Kisofeem Road on the northern side of Wadi As Salqa village.

Incidentally, 35-year-old Khalid Faraj Hassan Abu Aser, his wife, 30-year-old Nadia Khader Abu Aser, and their daughter, Amira, only 20 days old, were visiting Assmiri's family from Gaza City. Through loud speakers, the IOF ordered the inhabitants to leave the house. The inhabitants and their guests left the house, except Yousef Assmiri, who fled from the home.

The IOF continued shooting and, consequently, Nadia Khaderwas hit by a live bullet to her left arm. Her infant daughter, Amira, was injured by a live bullet to her head. Also, the shooting injured four other residents of the home.

After the IOF withdrew from the area at approximately 10:10pm that day, the injured were transferred to Shuhda'a Al-Aqsa Hospital in Deir Balah where the death of the infant Amira was announced.

http://www.mezan.org/en/a.php?id=6335

perhaps in the future if you are being 'sarcastic' you should the sarcasm emoticon

[oberliner]

15. Your post is about an incident from 2008

The OP is current - and ought to be the topic of this thread.

If you want to talk about previous Palestinian and Israeli babies who have been killed over the years then I am sure there are numerous horrific stories that can be shared.

But that isn't what the OP was about - was it?

[azurnoir]

16. well then I see you only want the tragedy of dead babies discussed if it is recent or more likely

if suits the current political needs?the subject of threads on this forum gets changed or 'added to' quite frequently in a number of manners such as an article by the same person who wrote an OP but on an entirely unrelated subject that could be considered right wing in some of its content as a means of delegitimizing the apparently uncomfortable OP? I see we're only talking about dead Israeli Settler babies here the others do not count at least because they happened 3 years ago or something?

[oberliner]

17. Yes exactly

Discuss current threads currently.

I wouldn't bring up the murder of the baby in Itamar here - would you?

[azurnoir]

18. Try not to think of a blue horse n/t

[vminfla]

12. The IOF is a pejorative that fake news organizations use

When you see it, you can safely assume that the rest of the story is false too. Remember the "Jenin Massacre" that never happened or the assisted suicide martyr Muhammed Al Dura who was killed by arab terrorists yet EI falsely blamed the "IOF".

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Completely untrue, and 'assisted suicide'? That's so totally ugly...

A Palestinian child was murdered and you call it 'assisted suicide'? Disgusting. Here's something that shouldn't have to be pointed out because it's as clear as the nose on yr face. That child didn't want to die, and for you to suggest such a thing is sick. What makes it worse is the sheer hypocrisy involved here in a thread where you express outrage about the child of an extremist Israeli settler dying in a car accident after the driver was hit by a rock....

On the use of IOF. It's used predominantly by Palestinian (a term I notice you don't seem to use, preferring the use of the term 'Arab') media and other organisations. The gall of Palestinians to see the military that occupies their land as being an occupation force! What will they come up with next? No-one seeing it should be stupid enough to 'safely assume' the rest of any story is false. They should actually read the story and acquaint themselves with whatever's being discussed and make their minds up objectively about what is false or not. See, that's how I can discard the talking points you dropped in at the end as being completely false :)

[azurnoir]

24. according to the 'Hasbara handbook' it is preferable to use Arab rather than Palestinian because

Arab can translate to figures such as Osama Bin Lauden and similar people and conjures thoughts of Saudi oil money ect whereas Palestinian could create a sympathetic picture of oppressed people

[oberliner]

25. Would we could have a discussion without references to handbooks and other nonsense

Can you not take people's comments here at face value without assuming that they are using a "handbook" of some kind to determine the terms they use?

[azurnoir]

40. The comment was taken at "face value" especially calling the death of Palestinian children either

"assisted suicide" or "fake" and I assume nothing apparently you still do not recognize what putting something in '' means at least not when it suits?

[Shaktimaan]

19. a live bullet?

what's a live bullet?

And this says that "the family and their guests left the house, except for Yousef al-Smiri who fled." So everyone left EXCEPT Yousef, who fled... without leaving the house somehow? And all of these people left the house while the soldiers "continued shooting?" They walked out into a hail of gunfire?

And what is the IOF? The IDF? The Shabak? Mossad? Para-military group? Or is it just made up?

Needless to say, this account doesn't make a ton of sense. It certainly doesn't sound like anyone was deliberately targeting this kid as they claim.

edit: wow, I read the rest of the article! Al Mezan is also highly concerned by IOF’s frequent perpetration of war crimes against the civilian population of the Occupied Palestinian Territories, especially in the Gaza Strip, and under international silence. These conducts continue as Israeli official statements are inciting a “holocaust” (genocide) and the Israeli government is seriously considering wiping out residential areas.

Israel was "seriously considering wiping out residential areas!" They "incited genocide!"

This sounds credible! Someone should do something!

[azurnoir]

21. as opposed to a rubber bullet but thanks I could not have scripted the responses here

better if I'd tried you are proving my point perfectly its only tragic when its an 'Israeli' baby otherwise its fake

[Violet_Crumble]

22. According to who?

As for the incident in question, it appears that you don't understand the meaning of intent or pre-empt. If you'd read the article, you'd see that this was a case where rocks have been thrown, and in this case it hit the driver on the head causing him to lose control. But to claim that whoever threw the rock thought to themselves: 'I'll hit the driver, and then he'll lose control and have a fatal crash' is ridiculous. Throwing rocks at cars is dangerous because it might cause a crash (and rocks being dropped off freeway overpasses has caused fatal accidents here).

I feel terrible for the child dying, but can't feel any sympathy for the father, who was an extremist. Like Palestinian militants, if you live by the sword yr likely to die by the sword...

[shira]

26. So the 18 mo. old wasn't a legit military target, but the father was?

You just wrote:

"I feel terrible for the child dying, but can't feel any sympathy for the father, who was an extremist. Like Palestinian militants, if you live by the sword yr likely to die by the sword..."

[Violet_Crumble]

27. No, and I've got no idea how yr so utterly misreading what I say...

Did I say I thought either of them was a legitimate military target? No, I didn't...

[shira]

28. Looks like you're just denying what you so clearly implied earlier. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

29. No, I'm telling you exactly what I think and what I mean...

I really wish you'd pay me the courtesy of taking in what I say I mean rather than you rushing in to tell me I believe something I didn't say or mean at all...

[shira]

30. Okay, so please be very clear what you meant about having no sympathy for those living/dying...

...by the sword in Hebron.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. I've already been very clear in the other thread...

Try reading what I said, and if yr still confused, please feel free to explain what's confusing you and we'll see if we can get it sorted out.

btw, while yr in this thread, did you read the comment where a poster referred to a Palestinian child who was killed as 'assisted suicide'? Do you find that at all disturbing? Or is it that me saying that I have no sympathy for an extremist settler so much more disturbing to you?

[shira]

32. No you haven't. Not at all...

Now you're just playing games and pretending you haven't generalized WRT all Hebron settlers, who you have no sympathy for and don't mind seeing them being the victims of terror attacks.

You won't find a single pro-Israel poster here who has views like that WRT Palestinian civilians, but you're the one appalled?

Are you serious?

:shrug:

You've done a bang up job of dehumanizing settlers and then denying that you've done so while conflating opposition to pathological antisemitism with hatred of Palestinians.

Shameful.

=====

As to Muhammad al Dura's assisted suicide comment, it was nothing of the sort. It was a hoax...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsCBFhCsyY

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Here's a link to where I explained it...

'I did not justify anyone's murder. Not feeling sympathy for someone dying is NOT justifying their death. And pointing out the blatantly obvious fact that those who live by the sword tend to die by the sword isn't justifying someone's death either. In the same thread you copied that from, a 'supporter' of Israel called the killing of a Palestinian child assisted suicide. Just wondered if you saw that and found that as disturbing as I did...'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=367558&mesg_id=368003

Now, how about instead of telling me what you've decided I think (which, btw, I've repeatedly reminded you is an incredibly clumsy and dishonest debate technique), you step back, take a few deep breaths, and digest what I actually tell you I think? If you don't want to do that, then it's pretty clear that yr not interested in what people think, but more interested in doing what I believe is a very lazy and dishonest thing, and deciding that you know better than the person yr 'debating' what they think and what they mean..

What I'd like you to do is carefully read the explanation I gave above, and let me know what's confusing you. That way I can attempt to explain it in a way that you will hopefully understand.

You won't find a single pro-Israel poster here who has views like that WRT Palestinian civilians..

Views like what?

You've done a bang up job of dehumanizing settlers and then denying that you've done so while conflating opposition to pathological antisemitism with hatred of Palestinians.

I see it didn't take more than a few days for you to resort to yr standard tactics of turning yr posts into a deluge of 'you, you, you!'. Predictable, though the irony of someone who says that they don't have a problem with anyone calling the vast majority of Palestinians genocidal maniacs accusing anyone of dehumanisation is entertaining...

The extremist settlers don't need anyone to dehumanise them, as they do it so ably all on their own. They're scumbags, and I wouldn't expect anyone claiming to be left-wing to think otherwise.

As to Muhammad al Dura's assisted suicide comment, it was nothing of the sort. It was a hoax...

Ah, I see where my mistake was now. I should have referred to the death of that Israeli baby as an assisted suicide. Seriously, you didn't find it the least bit revolting to see the death of a child referred to as an assisted suicide?

Look, last time I saw you huffing and puffing away about this supposed hoax, you were trying to make out the boy was alive and well etc. Given that the last time I clicked on a youtube link you provided, it led to a bigoted channel, I won't waste any more time on crap you link to at youtube. I'm really starting to wonder what yr aversion to reputable mainstream media sources is...

[shira]

34. I see. So if I described the victims of the Norway massacre the same way as you do settler victims

....then that wouldn't be justifying their murder either?

If I say I don't feel any sympathy for them, they're scumbags, and that since they 'live by the sword, they die by the sword'.....as disgusting or delusional as that is.....it's definitely not justifying their murder and anyone who says so is a fucking liar, right?

[Violet_Crumble]

35. No, you clearly don't see at all. Why would anyone describe the victims in Norway like that??

If I say I don't feel any sympathy for them, they're scumbags, and that since they 'live by the sword, they die by the sword'.....as disgusting or delusional as that is.....it's definitely not justifying their murder and anyone who says so is a fucking liar, right?

You got it in one :)

[shira]

36. Okay, so you agree as dumb as that is, it's not justifying their murder.

Now I'm wondering why you were so disturbed when you accused certain commentators of justifying the Norway massacre.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Not only don't I think what I said was dumb, I've told you repeatedly I didn't justify murder...

I'm really not sure at all why that's taking so much time and effort to sink in....

[shira]

38. No, if your statement applied to the Norway victims it would have been dumb...

We agree there.

But it seems it wasn't too long ago you were accusing some writers of justifying the Norway attacks with language that was far less hostile in comparison.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. It didn't. Fucked if I know why yr suddenly flinging them into the mix...

We don't agree there because yr making no sense at all...

Holy shit. Are you really incapable of not being able to tell the difference between a bunch of Norwegian teenagers and an extremist settler???

[oberliner]

6. This article is from a Palestinian news source - Ma'an News

With that in mind, I am not sure what point you are making with your remark about the headline and the one-line mention in the article.

[vminfla]

20. No point at all

More like Moral equivocation. Something happened during the Crusades, therefore it is perfectly acceptable for today's generation of arabs to have post traumatic stress disorder.