Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Amnesty International is losing its way

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:00 PM
Original message
Amnesty International is losing its way
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 01:01 PM by shira
As the organization celebrates 50 years, it is clear that something has gone terribly wrong with this once-respected moral watchdog.

Outside its London headquarters last week, Amnesty International (AI) hosted Complicity in Oppressions: Do the Media Aid Israel organized by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and the pro-Hamas group, Middle East Monitor Online (MEMO). In promoting the event, MEMO explained that realities do not deter Zionists and the well-oiled pro-Israel lobby from purveying distortions of the truth as facts in their hasbara (propaganda).

MEMO also called Zionism a pernicious ideology which is both racist and unjust an ideology backed by governments across the Western world.

As Amnesty International celebrates 50 years, it is clear that something has gone terribly wrong with this once-respected moral watchdog. Hosting such events, like allying with these groups, highlights the moral decline of the organization, which now embraces racial and religious prejudice. According to the EU, claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor is a form of anti-Semitism. Providing a platform for this ideology, therefore, contradicts the principles of a supposed human rights organization.

To make matters worse, these activities divert Amnestys resources away from real human rights abuses. As a result, the millions of people in the Middle East from Algeria to Syria and Iran whose human rights truly are being abused will continue to receive marginal attention from this self-proclaimed human-rights watchdog.

MUCH more...
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=224870
Refresh | 0 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, that's one opinion. Many of us feel that AA's actions are *SPOT-ON*. (NT)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You think that they are spot on to provide a platform for people who claim that
Zionism is a, pernicious ideology which is both racist and unjust an ideology backed by governments across the Western world.

Why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Zionism is racist and unjust.
Even David ben-Gurion saw that, and he was the primary motivating force of Zionism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Be honest.
Ben Gurion never thought that Zionism was racist or unjust. You obviously do. Why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Ugly untruthful post nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. None of the three who have said this on this thread have even tried to defend what they posted.
They could not more clearly say who they are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Speaks to the dishonesty of a position they're incapable of defending.
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 01:52 AM by shira
In fact, that's the entire point of demonization/delegitimization of Israel.

Honesty and accuracy have zero to do with it. Israel must be destroyed at all costs and any underhanded, dishonest tactics will do. Expose their lies today, they'll make up new ones tomorrow and then bring the old ones back another day. Same old shit.

A 2-state solution isn't enough to address their main concern - Israel's very existence. If it has to be destroyed in a war, so be it. This is the hateful position of warmongers, not anyone associated with genuine peace and goodwill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. Because it is.
It is racist, it is unjust, and it is unfortunately backed by governments across the Western world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Not an answer.
Why do you think that it is racist and unjust?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Perhaps you should just search older posts in this forum.
The answer has been posted thousands of times before.

Tesha
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well if you don't think your position is worth defending
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 05:37 PM by aranthus
why do you think I'm going to do your research for you? I asked why you think Zionism is racist and unjust. How am I supposed to know whether there's anything on this site that legitimately supports your position, and whether that's your reason. Do you expect me to read your mind, and then match that to something that someone else has posted? Come on! Have the courage of your convictions and post something that supports what you believe.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Now, I just don't think your position will shift one jot; reiterating all the arguments...
...for you would just be a waste of my time.

Tesha
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I'm giving you an opportunity to not be thought of as merely hateful.
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 05:50 PM by aranthus
That is what must be presumed from statements deligitimizing the idea of Jewish nationalism. Especially true if you can't be bothered to give a reason. And don't think you can foist your unwillingness or inability to post a valid argument on my not agreeing with it. That's hardly the point of rational discourse. However, if you don't want to defend your position, then there's nothing I can do but draw the obvious conclusion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm confident that I'm not thought of as hateful just because I reject Zionism. (NT)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Nice world you live in. Call when you get to earth.
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 06:53 PM by aranthus
Maybe being anti-Zionist isn't considered hateful in some branches of the Left, but in the real world, it's considered antisemitism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
29. News Flash: In the real world, being anti-zionist does not equal antisemitism. At least not
to people who are capable of critical thought.

In the real world, people who believe in democracy believe that it can only be achieved through secularism. I know plenty of Jewish people who are against having a Jewish state, but are for a state called Israel.

Even western democracies that have official religions, like England, do so for ceremonial purposes only. Being antisemitic means you hate Jewish people, wish is kind of hard for a Jewish person who support's Israel's existence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Newsflash

'a Jewish person who support's Israel's existence.' is a Zionist .
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. "'a Jewish person who support's Israel's existence.' is a Zionist ."
maybe we should we email that comment to these folks

http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageNavigator/eng/USENG_homenew

oh and

Israel's Netanyahu gleans Christian Zionist backing

As Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu addressed Congress today, he's already locked in support from America's most avid pro-Israel hard-liners -- Christian Zionists.

Jews in Israel and the USA include many Israel supporters who both love the Jewish state and sharply disagree with current Israeli politics, and there's support in both countries for President Obama's stiff insistence on serious concessions for peace from all sides. But Christian Zionists are unquestioningly supportive of the most locked down/no-land-for-peace stance that Netanyahu takes.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2011/05/israel-netanyahu-palestine-christain-zionism/1




Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Yea and ?


I do not get your point.

Is there one?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. really I guess all you heard was bzzzzz, as you looked up ?n/t
Edited on Thu Jun-16-11 01:25 AM by azurnoir
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. what he said was perfectly accurate.
He said that a Jewish person who support's Israel's existence is a Zionist.

He didn't imply that no one else could be a Zionist either. For instance, a Christian who support's Israel's existence is ALSO a Zionist.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
43. Zionism is support of a Jewish state. Israel should not be an official Jewish state.
Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות‎, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland.<1>
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Do you think France should not be a French state?
Do you think Saudi Arabia should not be an Arab state? What is wrong with a Jewish state?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. I believe that France should be a French state, but being French is not a religion. Being Arab is
not a religion. On the flip side of the coin, I don't believe that France should be a Christian state, nor do I believe that Saudi Arabia should be a Muslim state. I can separate religion from nationality. Being Israeli is a nationality, being Jewish is a cultural religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Then you don't understand what it means to be a Jew or an antisemite.
It's freakiing presumptuous of you to be telling Jews what antisemitism is. I suggest you read "Clues about Jews for People Who Aren't" or else "Why the Jews" or "The Nine Questions People Ask About Judaism". All three have excellent discussion of these issues. Frankly, I don't understand why anyone would care to have a state called Israel if it wasn't a Jewish state. What the Hell does the name matter? What matters is the cultural composition of the state. Being anti-Zionist is the same as being anti-Italy. Can you imagine what Italians would think of you if told them that you thought that Italians shouldn't have a state of their own, and that it was just fine for the neighboring states to move as many of their people into Italy as they wanted? Do you think that person would care that you "didn't hate Italians?" They'd call you anti-Italian, and they'd be right. Please explain to me how being anti-Jewish nationalism is anything else but antisemitic?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #34
40. Good Post nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #34
44. Why does it have to be a Jewish state? Why can't it be secular? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Because it's not about religion. It's about national culture.
It's like asking why France has to be French. The Jews are a nation as well as a religion. When we talk of Israel being a Jewish state we're talking about its national character, not its religious character.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #47
62. Being French is not grounded in religion. Being Jewish is.
Edited on Thu Jun-16-11 09:42 PM by Exilednight
I'm Israeli, but I am not Jewish. When youenforce laws that push a singular religious view, then you are a religious state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. No it isn't. Jewishness if both religion and nation.
You don't get to tell Jews what they are. You are denying Jewish nationhood, something that has existed for thousands of years. that is the essence of why anti-Zionism is antisemitism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. You can be Jewish without living in Israel. I know plenty of people who do. Tying the two together
is a 20th century invention.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #69
74. Even if every Jew in Israel became xtian or atheist it would still be the homeland for Jews...
Edited on Fri Jun-17-11 08:00 AM by shira
What's difficult about this?

Jews can believe or practice anything they wish but they are still Jews - as much as any ultra orthodox Jew.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #29
42. What?
Being antisemitic means you hate Jewish people

Ummm, no. Hating Jewish people can be an example of anti-semitism, but it is not defined by it. Anti-semitism is bigotry towards Jewish people.

Singling Jews out to specifically deny them self-determination is to discriminate against them. One can have bigoted opinions without "Hating Jews" or "Hating Blacks." Hatred is not the benchmark of bigotry, discrimination is.

In the real world, people who believe in democracy believe that it can only be achieved through secularism.

Yes, ok, so? Judaism is not defined by its religion, it is a nation of people, especially with regards to Israel. Yes, there is a religion associated with it, but adherence to the religion is far from necessary to be considered Jewish. And Israel happens to be a secular state, its Zionist founders were overwhelmingly secular and most early, crucial Zionist movements were aggressively secular, re: kibbutzes. Having a Jewish state is the same thing as having an Italian state, a Greek state or a Japanese state.

I know plenty of Jewish people who are against having a Jewish state, but are for a state called Israel.

It sounds like you know plenty of Jewish people who are pretty ignorant as to the meaning of the word "Jewish" as well as the history of Israel. Umm, congratulations?

Being antisemitic means you hate Jewish people, wish is kind of hard for a Jewish person who support's Israel's existence.

No, no, no. You just demonstrated that it is just as possible to say something anti-semitic out of ignorance as out of anger. Consider a black person who considers black people to be less intelligent than Asians. This is a racist POV, regardless of the color of whoever espoused it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Being Jewish is not the same as being Israeli. Why is the falsehood continually pushed that being
Jewish and Israeli is synonymous with each other? I'm Israeli, but I am not Jewish, nor do I support a Jewish state, but I do support an Israeli state.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. who said they are synonymous?
Not me.
I said that Judaism is a nation of people. The state of Israel was created specifically to be the nation-state homeland of the Jewish people. That does not mean one has to be Jewish to be a citizen of Israel any more than it means someone must be ethnically Irish to be a citizen of Ireland. The word "nation" has two distinct meanings. For example, my friend Brendan is an American citizen, born and raised. Yet he is ALSO Irish, and considers himself a member of that nationality, despite the fact that he does not hold citizenship to the actual state of Ireland. Hence the distinction between "state" and "Nation" though they are oftentimes used interchangeably.

nor do I support a Jewish state, but I do support an Israeli state.

So you don't support the idea of a Jewish state but you do support the real-life Jewish state that you are a citizen of? Erm, you're not making a whole lot of sense there. The Israel that you support actually IS the Jewish state that you say you don't support. They're the same thing. Really. (You're Israeli... don't they teach you this stuff in school there?)
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Well said n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Alright, let me say this again. I don't support a Jewish state. I don;t support a Jewish state
any more than I support a Christian state. As an adult capable of critical thought, I am able to separate Israel from being Jewish.

You're arguing that you do not believe that Israel is not synonymous with Judaism, but then go on to state that "Judaism is a nation of people" and that "the state of Israel was created specifically to be the nation-state homeland of Jewish people."

I do agree that Israel was initially created as a Jewish state, but I don't support the theory that Israel can continue carrying on in this manner. Just as I wish America to be integrated and secular, I wish the same for Israel.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Israel is a state for Jews. Whether religious or atheist. Get it?
Atheists do not call themselves Muslim or Christian.

Not so for Jews.

See the difference?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. No, I don;t see a difference because a difference does not exist. Jewishness is not
a nationality. Israeli is a nationality. You can't be a Jewish Muslim, nor can you be a Jewish Christian.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. Ah, but here is where you are wrong.
Just because there is a religion attached to it does not mean that the Jews are not a nation. There are no hard and fast rules as to exactly what requirements there are to qualify any group as a nation of people. But if there is any accepted standard it is that any group who chooses to self-identify as a nation meets the criteria.

But the distinction between Nation and nation-state/citizen is worth discussing.

The word citizenship is often used in a different sense from nationality. The most common distinguishing feature of citizenship is that citizens have the right to participate in the political life of the state, such as by voting or standing for election. The term national can include both citizens and non-citizens.

Alternatively, nationality can refer to membership in a nation (collective of people sharing a national identity, usually based on ethnic and cultural ties and self-determination) even if that nation has no state, such as the Basques, Kurds, Tamils and Scots.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality

So you're right on one level. Israeli is a nationality. But so is Judaism.

And incidentally, Jews can practice whatever religion they want and still be considered Jewish. I know lots of Buddhist Jews for example. While the religion is an important aspect of the culture of the nation, it is not defined by it. Anyone will tell you that a non-practicing, secular Jew is just as Jewish as a Hasidic Rabbi. Hebrew is the language of the Jews, yet it also does not define us. I know very little Hebrew. Still Jewish.

To offer a not-perfect parallel, think of pan-Arabism. Plenty of people subscribe to the concept of Arab nationalism; as commonly identified by two common traits, Arabic and Islam. But is an Arab who doesn't practice Islam any less of an Arab? Of course not. Arabism transcends easy definitions in a similar way as Judaism does. They are both pan-ethnic conglomerations of overlapping cultures... as I said, there no hard and fast rules. But both are legitimate nations nonetheless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #45
51. Tying yourself in knots with this post.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
63. I hold an Israeli passport. I hold Israeli citizenship. But I'm not Jewish. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
King_David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #63
71. And so ? ? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
32. who 'real world' the on line that so called Pro-Semites are trying to create ?
please anti-zionist is not the same as anti-semite no matter how muxh that falsehood is pumped
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #32
41. No, it's not.
It is an EXAMPLE of anti-semitism though.

Seeking to deny Jews a right to national unity and self-determination is to single them out for discrimination. Unless you also reject all other forms of nationhood the world over.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
60. I would also deny Christians their right to national unity and self-determination - yet I'm a
Christian, and I do not hate Christians. nor am I anti-Christian.

I'm not anti-Jewish, but nor do I support a Jewish state. I support Israel's right to exist, just not as a formal Jewish state. Religion has no place in government, no matter whose religion we are talking about, or what country we are talking about.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #60
75. If the majority xtian population of a xtian state became atheist, it would cease being a xtian state
Because christians are who they are due to what they believe and practice.

Jews remain Jews no matter what.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. I don't disagree with that. The stumbling block is religion in politics. No matter
what the major religion is, or is not, it has no place in imposing its beliefs upon the entire population.

The other part of the problem is that no nation that calls itself democratic should have an official religion.

It's interesting that you bring this up. A few demographers have raised the issue that by 2035 Arabs could become the majority, and will certainly be the majority in 2048.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. "How am I supposed to know whether there's anything on this site that legitimately
supports your position, and whether that's your reason ."

Search function in the top right corner of the page.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well, in fact, Zionism IS a pernicious ideology that is both racist and unjust."
But thanks for the post -- it reminds me to donate to Amnesty International.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Do you think that all forms of nationalism are racist, unjust and pernicious?
If so, then OK, at least you're consistent.

If not, then why Zionism in particualr?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
aranthus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. I don't see why it matters much if he's consistent.
Sure, he escapes the charge of singling out Jews, but that doesn't end the issue, does it? As a Jew or Catholic, American or Israeli, I don't much care if someone is hostile to my religion or nationality because he singles that out, or because he's hostile to all religions and nationalities. At the receiving end, there isn't any difference. Also, if someone believes the lie that all forms of nationalism are racist, doesn't that mean that the person believes lies about my nation, even if it's merely as a subset of believing false things about all?

Finally, I think that it's telling that you didn't get an answer to your questions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. I will take NGO Monitor more seriously on such matters...
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 04:35 PM by LeftishBrit
when(a) they apply the same scrutiny and criticism to NGOs across the board, not just left-wing or human-rights ones; (b) when they follow their own advice, and didn't get the support of such international advisors as Elliot Abrams (of Iran-Contra, and general collaborations with Reagan and Bush Jr on their anti-human-rights realpolitik) and Douglas Murray (a nasty RW UK writer, who is an ardent supporter of the Iraq war and hawkish foreign policy in general, and has most recently defended the extremist English Defence League).

ETA: Amnesty should not have hosted MEMO either IMO. But Amnesty does not devote a very high proportion of its work or interest to Israel in any case, despite the perceptions that some people have otherwise. For example their front page at the moment deals with persecution of gays in Cameroon, oppression of trade unionists in Iran, women's rights in Nicaragua, and forced evictions in Cambodia.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Legit criticism is legit criticism. If you find anything false in the OP, let me know...
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 04:41 PM by shira
Amnesty has long been known to have fundamental issues...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x175318

Shooting the messenger will do nothing to address what are legitimately big problems with Amnesty, HRW, etc....

It's not that they stand for leftist liberal values either. Not when they're doing the bidding of far rightwing extremist 3rd world governments that buy influence with their unlimited oil $$$$$$.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. What is false in the OP is:
'As a result, the millions of people in the Middle East from Algeria to Syria and Iran whose human rights truly are being abused will continue to receive marginal attention from this self-proclaimed human-rights watchdog.'

No, these countries receive a lot of attention from Amnesty and other organizations. But if people are repeatedly told that there are few or no campaigns about these countries, then they may not notice or join these campaigns. So it's counterproductive as well as untrue.

Just a few recent examples:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/help-stop-bloodshed-syria

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/security-council-must-refer-syria-icc-2011-04-26

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/iran-protest-crackdown-condemned-2011-02-14

http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/index.php?q=node/1534

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=19468

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/algeria-urged-allow-peaceful-protests-2011-02-11

http://www.amnesty.name/en/library/asset/MDE28/001/2011/en/f823e9a0-19f4-47ac-b242-97c87a0f8e78/mde280012011en.pdf

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Seriously? Amnesty has spent far more time and resources on Israel than on Libya or Syria
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 04:33 AM by shira
Did you read the article and comments here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x175318

They admit they have a double-standard! What are your thoughts on the comments from The Magistrate, Shaaktiman, and Pelsar and WRT Israel receiving more attention from Amnesty on Sudan, for example?

At this link you'll find a chart WRT Amnesty's focus in 2009...
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/human_rights_upheaval_amnesty_international_in_

You don't see any problem there with Amnesty focusing far more of its time and resources on Israel than say, for example, Libya Syria, Saudi Arabia, or Egypt? I mean come on!

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. X
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 04:27 AM by shira
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. There are many right-wing pro-Israeli types that will attempt to knock down anything with the
hint of truth behind it if it goes against Israel.

Personally, I wish AI would spend more time and attention on post-industrialized democracies that stomp on human rights and do it under the cover of security. As an American and Israeli citizen, both countries look for ways to trample on human rights and infringe on personal freedoms. The right wing of America wants to make America a strictly Christian state while the right wing of Israel wants to make Israel a purely Jewish state. Both find ways to support their bigotry of Arabs and other ethnic groups under the guise of security.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #28
39. So you don't mind in 2009 over 600 reports by AI on Israel vs. only 6 reports on Libya?
Edited on Thu Jun-16-11 03:56 AM by shira
See "Table I: Analysis of Amnesty Publications in 2009"
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/human_rights_upheaval_amnesty_international_in_

You have no problem with 100x the focus and resources on Israel than on Libya?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
46. Nope, not at all, if it were true. But a google search provided far more than
just 6 reports on Libya.

Putting that aside for a moment, I have no problem if that were the real number. Israel likes to be held up on the same moral ground as the US where we attempt to be the poster child of human rights; thus, both deserve such scrutiny. If countries like America and Israel garnish hundreds of reports, how do you expect the rest of the world to live up to higher standards if the bearer of such standards are abysmal?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. It is true for 2009. And if you have no problem with that...
...then what you're essentially saying is you don't mind that the rights of Palestinians are FAR more important to you and Amnesty than the rights of millions of Libyans.

That's fine for you - odd of course - but you're not Amnesty. They CLAIM to be for universal human rights and in that respect they fail miserably.

Libya deserves 100x more attention than Israel - not the other way around. Think of the victims, not the perpetrators.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. I got over 34 million hits for 2009 libyan human rights reports on google. Even if only
1/1000th of 1% (I would suspect that is being than fairly conservative that the actual number of individual reports is much higher) are actual individual reports, then Libya would have over 340 human rights reports.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #59
73. We're talking amnesty international 2009 Libya vs. Israel. And you said earlier you don't mind...
...if Libya only received 1/100th of the attention Israel received from Amnesty International.

Have you changed your mind, and if so why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. You edited your post with the original statistic. Originally you had NGOs like AI.
But to answer your question: no, I have not changed my mind.

No country can claim to be a champion of human rights and have so many violations of said rights. I wish NGOs like AI would be more critical of western style democracies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. I don't understand this logic.
If countries like America and Israel garnish hundreds of reports, how do you expect the rest of the world to live up to higher standards if the bearer of such standards are abysmal?

What exactly do you mean, "garnish?" Do you mean they produce these reports on others? Or that they are the focus of them?

Israel holds itself to a higher standard precisely because it achieves such a standard for itself quite successfully. Human rights is by its nature a comparative, competitive field. We largely determine whether a state is doing better or worse at it by comparing it to every other state.

Thus, if state that are well known to have truly abysmal standards on human rights, like Libya, are investigated less (and thus criticized less), than states that have relatively high standards, it means that something is not on the level.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Israel does not achieve the standard that you say it does. If it did, then it wouldn't have
the 600 reports that the previous poster found.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Well then Libya must be achieving a high standard b/c it has so few reports...
...by that twisted logic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #58
65. I debunked the myth you are attempting to spread. See post #32. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-11 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #65
72. What myth? And #32 is someone else's post, not yours. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #72
78. Sorry, post #52. Wasn't wearing my glasses.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #56
66. That is circular logic at best.
You are measuring Israel's HR record by the amount of reports filed against it, not by the reality of the situation. Are you truly insinuating that states like Myanmar, Libya, Sudan, Afghanistan, etc. have a stronger HR record than Israel?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Exilednight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. I'n insinuating no such thing. I'm just arguing that no country can call itself
the standard of human rights when they've committed significant human rights violations. As an American, I'm ashamed of our human rights record in Iraq, Afghanistan and Gitmo. As an Israeli, I'm ashamed of our human rights record against Palestinians.

Just because you're better than someone doesn't mean you're the measuring stick by which all others measure themselves - no matter how much you claim it is.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
tootrueleft Donating Member (385 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-14-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. @Leftish Brit: A very good point. It's good when surrounded by blinkered people to remind everyone
Edited on Tue Jun-14-11 06:35 PM by tootrueleft
of the invaluable good work such organisations do. And its always the supporters their sides rights abuses who will force the conversation of the abuses they have a stake in to their particular view to infer that the rights organisation is biased, conveniently ignoring the other work they do which proves conclusively that they are not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. It's legit criticism. Oh now don't tell me you're against any criticism of organizations
Edited on Wed Jun-15-11 01:42 AM by shira
...you approve of that routinely bash Israel.

That's the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? Aren't you guys always accusing supporters of Israel of having a problem with any type of criticism vs. Israel?

It appears from our other conversation earlier that you have a problem criticizing the UNHRC too, despite most nations in that group being serial abusers of human rights.

It's just criticism - what's wrong with that?

:shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-15-11 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. Two more articles: Amnesty's Disproportion and Amnesty's Dirty Little Secret
For years now, these influential organizations pound Israel while going much lighter on horrific crimes committed by others. According to NGO-monitor.org, HRW produced twice as many press releases and reports on Israel in 2006 as they did on Iran, while Amnesty produced the same number of reports on Israel, China and Sudan.

Such comparisons abound, revealing the organizations priorities, even when faced with enormous evil. There are 1.3 billion people in China suffering under a tyranny that rules over the conquered nation of Tibet and millions of uprooted peasants. Chinese rulers execute thousands of prisoners each year and sell the eyes and organs of not a few. There are 41 million people in Sudan, where Arabs have black slaves and have killed more than two million black Africans in a self-declared jihad. But a Palestinian who gets clubbed in a riot is hundreds of times more likely to get human rights attention than a black enslaved by an Arab in Sudan or a Tibetan shoved off his ancestral homeland by Chinese despots.

In the mad calculus of the Human Rights NGOs, certain sufferings are more important. How does Amnesty explain why the life of one Palestinian is worth as much attention as hundreds of thousands of black Africans or a million Chinese? It seems something about the Jews attracts human rights folks.

http://charlesjacobs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27:amnestys-disproportion&catid=3:my-blog&Itemid=2

In 1993 I realized that human rights groups are not actually working for universal human rights. I read in the Economist that black women and children could be bought or sold for $15 dollars in Sudan and Mauritania. I called Amnesty and Human Rights Watch to see if they knew. They knew. They sent me their reports on the issue.

Guardians of human rights knew that tens of thousands of blacks were being enslaved, yet they were not making a fuss. Why? Apart from guarding life itself, what is more central and sacred to human rights champions than guarding personal liberty the freedom from being owned by another person?

So I went to Amnestys national convention and proposed that Amnesty International include emancipation of todays slaves numbering 27 million, mostly in the Third World in their mandate. After a long floor debate, I lost.Amnesty International wont fight hard against Arab enslavement of blacks because their unstated, subconscious principles downplay non-Western crimes.

http://charlesjacobs.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28:amnestys-dirty-little-secret&catid=3:my-blog&Itemid=2
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
37. So some people keep saying; but I have found FAR more material on China, Sudan, etc. than on
Palestine in AI and other human rights organizations' literature.

Sections of the MEDIA may be more interested in what they say about Israel, and it may thus get more publicity; but that is a separate issue.

And all this concentration on what they are saying about Israel vs other countries DEFLECTS attention from the other countries - and that is so whether the attention comes from attackers or defenders of Israel.

The UN human rights commission is disproportionately preoccupied with Israel, but not everyone else is.

If one looks at what is *actually* on the websites of these organizations, rather than just reading articles criticizing them, here are the key issues on Amnesty International UK's current front page:

(1) Send a message of hope to women in Nicaragua
Rape and sexual abuse are widespread in Nicaragua, and two-thirds of reported rapes are against girls under the age of 17. Yet there is a total ban on abortion, even for rape survivors and those whose lives are at risk. On 28 September, the women and girls of Nicaragua will take to the streets to demand their rights. They will use butterflies created by people around the world as a symbol of hope and global solidarity.

■Take action: create a butterfly

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(2) Gay rights: Homosexuality and even 'attempted homosexuality' is outlawed in Cameroon. Jean-Claude Roger Mbede is serving three years in prison after he was found guilty of exactly these crimes in April. Call for his release

(3) Forced evictions: Some 10,000 villagers in Phnom Penh, Cambodia are at risk of being forced from their homes to make way for redevelopment. Send an urgent appeal

(4) Trade unions: Two members of a bus workers union in Iran remain in custody on charges including 'propaganda against the system'. Call for their release


.
Latest News
Shepard Fairey adds his flair to Amnesty's global campaign for girls and women in Nicaragua - 14 June 2011
Bahrain: Dozens of activists on trial before military courts - 14 June 2011
Amnesty Syria researcher Neil Sammonds blogs on testimony from injured Syrians in Hatay, Turkey - 13 June 2011



and on the Amnesty International central website:

The civilian toll in Misratah
Amnesty International documented abuses by both sides in the conflict, including possible war crimes

Wounded Syrians tell of army assault
Amnesty International's Neil Sammonds in Turkey on the experiences of Syrians who have fled


News:

-Uighur teacher extradited to China on politically motivated 'terror' chargesA Uighur man who reported a death in custody is at risk of torture following his extradition from Kazakhstan.
+Russian human rights defender not guilty of slander chargesOleg Orlov of the NGO Memorial had said the Chechen President was responsible for the murder of rights defender Natalia Estemirova

+Bahrain targets activists as military trials continue

Good news
Angola rehouses victims of forced evictions
Hundreds of people in Luanda whose homes were demolished between 2004 and 2006 are to be rehoused from September

Livewire Amnesty International's blog
Sri Lanka: Confronting the Killing Fields
Is there a scorched earth policy in Syria?
Why is the world silent?Syrian refugees speak


Activism Centre

Cte dIvoire: End reprisals against real or perceived supporters of former president Laurent Gbagbo
Real or perceived supporters of former President Laurent Gbagbo continue to be harassed, arbitrarily detained, ill-treated and forced to flee.





And from Human Rights Watch

Top headline:

China: Children Poisoned by Lead and Denied Treatment

Then:


Reports.My Children Have Been Poisoned
A Public Health Crisis in Four Chinese Provinces
.A Costly Move
Far and Frequent Transfers Impede Hearings for Immigrant Detainees in the United States


Latest News.

Mali: Enforce New Plan to Curb Child Labor
Half the Countrys Children Work in Hazardous Conditions
June 15, 2011Press release.China: Children Poisoned by Lead and Denied Treatment
Officials Prevent Access to Care, Intimidate and Detain Parents
June 15, 2011Press release.Malaysia: Withdraw Invitation to Sudanese President
Al-Bashir Should Not be Welcome at Economic Forum
June 15, 2011Press release.China/EU: Rights Dialogue Needs Clear Results
Without Benchmarks, Periodic Talks Risk Losing Legitimacy
June 15, 2011Press release.Uganda: Civil Society Seeks Independent Inquiry Into April Killings
Broad Coalition Presses President for Invitation to UN Special Rapporteur
June 15, 2011Press release.Cte dIvoire: Act Swiftly on UN Inquiry
Security Council Should Release 2004 Report on Grave Crimes
June 15, 2011Press release.In Turkey, He Loves You, He Beats You
June 15, 2011Media spotlight.UAE: End Trial of Democracy Petitioners
Human Rights Blogger, Sorbonne Lecturer Charged With Humiliating' Officials
June 15, 2011Press release..
.Prisoners of the Past
Kuwaiti Bidun and the Burden of Statelessness







Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-16-11 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. In 2009 there were 6 total reports on Libya compared to over 600 on Israel by AI...
Edited on Thu Jun-16-11 03:55 AM by shira
See "Table I: Analysis of Amnesty Publications in 2009"
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/human_rights_upheaval_amnesty_international_in_

There's simply no defending that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 07th 2021, 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC