IDF to remove 6 uninhabited illegal W. Bank outposts

[Scurrilous]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/366512.html

<snip>

"The Israel Defense Forces Central Command decided
after discussions Sunday to evacuate six
uninhabited illegal outposts in the West Bank.

The decision followed general
instructions recently
conveyed to the IDF by
Defense Minister Shaul
Mofaz."

<snip>

"The decision to evacuate was made amid heavy
pressure from the United States government, but
the current decision involves only a small
percentage of outposts. Security sources have
said that there are dozens of outposts that are
completely illegal, which have undergone no
legal registration procedure whatsoever.

William Burns, assistant U.S. secretary of state
for Near Eastern affairs, arrived in the region
and met Sunday afternoon with Foreign Minister
Silvan Shalom. In their meeting, Burns called
on Israel and the Palestinian Authority to
follow the road map for Middle East peace plan,
which specifically calls for Israel to remove
illegal outposts."

[Resistance]

1. wow what a good gesture

maybe stop construction of the Apartheid Wall too?

Or, maybe put an end to settlement growth on illegally occupied land altogether?

And while we're at it, how about halting the terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians?

Nah, removing a handful of uninhabited outposts should be sufficient enough for American politicians and propagandists to work with.

[Gimel]

2. All one sided

Can't think of a peace that the Palestinians haven't disrupted.

[Resistance]

3. so what?

Halting terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians isn't good for you on moral or ethical principles alone?

How about stopping a racist wall just because it's the humane thing to do? Or ending the theft of land, just because it's the right thing to do?

The "one-sided" excuse doesn't cut it anymore, Gimel

[drewb]

35. Gobble gobble gobble.....

I'm a turkey!

[drdon326]

4. More than anything i've seen by the PLO..

HOW about arresting one terrorist??

How about outlawing hamas,ij, and al-aqsa MURDERS brigade??

How about stopping paying money to them??

How about stopping putting out anti-semitic shit in their
textbooks??

How about stopping celebrating the deaths of innocent israelis?

How about stopping putting out TV shows that call jews the descendants
of "pigs and monkeys"?

How about stopping supporting terrorists??

Have they even SERIOUSLY CONDEMNED terrorism??
(and lip service doesnt count)

Funny how the the PA charter didnt even want the land
in the inital pa charter.

[Resistance]

5. are you trying to justify

Israeli aggression and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians?

[drdon326]

6. No ethnic cleansing ......

now if you really want to discuss ethnic cleansing we
could go back to what the arab world did to the 800,000
jewish people in arab lands that were told to hit the road
and 97% left.

no ethnic cleansing in israel.....the only democracy in the ME.

[dfong63]

9. israel is as much a democracy as apartheid south africa

[Resistance]

12. it would be humorous

if it weren't so serious -- the standard response to the issue of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is to deny that ethnic cleansing is even taking place.

Such are the ways of the ultra-nationalist.

[dfong63]

8. of course he is

the Israeli negotiation strategy:
you give us everything we want on a silver platter, and then we'll discuss giving you whatever we feel like.

[drdon326]

10. suuure...

Iguess you missed every demand everytime the PLO wants
to start negotiations.

Hey, are they still holding out for right of return
or will they just settle for for the whole of israel.

[Resistance]

13. whatever can be said about the PLO

doesn't justify Israel's terrorist attacks on Palestinian civilians.

[drdon326]

15. Your line is bit played at this point...

iSRAEL goes after terrorists and sadly there are innocent
causualities.

Now, when do you think the PLO will take on hamas ,ij et al
so Israel doesnt have too?? huh??

I wont hold my breath.

[Resistance]

17. more excuses

Israel commits at least as much terrorism as Hamas and I.J. does. Quit excusing Israeli terror, and then you might have some ground to stand on.

[dfong63]

7. sure, just ignore any news that's inconvenient

HOW about arresting one terrorist??

already done, happened long ago.

How about outlawing hamas,ij, and al-aqsa MURDERS brigade??

sure, when Israel outlaws the IDF, gives up its nuclear weapons, stops sending warplanes to attack civilian homes and lives.

How about stopping paying money to them??

don't forget that Israel has a long history of paying money to Hamas - in order to undermine the PA.

How about stopping putting out anti-semitic shit in their
textbooks??

sure, when Israel gives back the land they stole.

How about stopping celebrating the deaths of innocent israelis?

sure, when Israel stops killing innocent Palestinians.

How about stopping putting out TV shows that call jews the descendants
of "pigs and monkeys"?

sure, when Israel stops putting on TV ministers that call Palestinians "vermin", "snakes", and other dehumanizing labels.

How about stopping supporting terrorists??

sure, when Israel stops bulldozing homes and assassinating Palestinians.

Have they even SERIOUSLY CONDEMNED terrorism??
(and lip service doesnt count)

whatever condemnation they utter, you are sure to dismiss as "lip service".

Funny how the the PA charter didnt even want the land
in the inital pa charter.

bullshit. whatever the "initial" charter did or didn't say, that doesn't give Israel the right to steal Palestinian land.

[drdon326]

11. Riiiigght

in other words theyve done NONE of those things and really
have no intention of doing any of those in the near future.

AND Israel should negotiate without anything other than some
vague empty promises.....not likely.

[Resistance]

14. excuses excuses

Israel is the side with the overwhelming power to promote peace for both sides. The fact is they don't because they first want to steal as much land as possible from Palestinians.

Peace = obstacle to Israel's theft of land.

[drdon326]

18. Interesting theory....

except Israel is the only party involved that have ACTUALLY
given up land.So much for your theory.

Now what has the plo done to promote peace??
I'm having trouble remembering.

[Resistance]

19. oh ok

as if Palestinians haven't given up any land :crazy:

[drdon326]

21. No but your close....

they havent given up on land of israel yet....unfortunately.

Sad their leadership is so pathetic.

[Aidoneus]

20. they've cravenly surrendered 78% of their traditional homeland

and that's just by waking up in the morning. Not good enough? Of course not..the rest is still considered "negotiable".

[drdon326]

22. This is interesting

i guess that 78% figure includes the state of israel.... so by
your logic israel is giving up more than that....considering both arabs and jews both lived east of the jordan river.

Iknow youre not talking about the west bank amd gaza because
israel negotiated 95% + return of these to the palestinians
and apparently that wasnt enough.

What were they holding out for??

[tinnypriv]

23. Doc, a question

Why is it that you continue to say "95%" despite the fact you have been shown multiple times maps which do not show "95%" at all?

You have also been shown (or had directed to you), statements by Edud Barak himself which disprove the "95%" theory.

I'm all for defending Israel with a certain gusto, but bringing up the "95%" charge is more than enough to disqualify your comments.

I'm honestly interested why you would waste time posting given the fact that is the case. :shrug:

[drdon326]

25. No problem...

http://www.wujs.org.il/activist/features/campaigns/camp_david.shtml

Barak's offer to the Palestinians was the most substantial and far reaching that had ever been made. In Israel, people were stunned by the extent of the concessions that he was prepared to make. It is unclear whether the Israeli public were prepared to support Barak's deal. However they were never given the opportunity to endorse the proposals as Arafat rejected them out of hand. According to media reports Barak's offer included:

*Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip
*The creation of a Palestinian state in that area
*The removal of isolated settlements that would be transferred to Palestinian control
*Slices of Israeli land to be included in the Palestinian state to compensate for the percentage of the West Bank to become Israeli
*Palestinian control over parts of Jerusalem including most of the Old City
*"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount (rather than Israeli sovereignty, which had been in effect since 1967)
...................................................................

now tell me what percentage you heard??

[tinnypriv]

26. Okay, now where is the map showing 95%? (nt)

[drdon326]

27. OH ...I get it....

when you didnt like the fact I found what you were looking for,
you pulled the oldest trick in the book.....change the tune.

I gave you what you wanted...i dont think there is a map.

Youre turn....produce one....from the camp david accords!!

from a reliable source!!

Everyone is waiting.

[tinnypriv]

33. There was no "tune"

I specifically made references to maps in the post you responded to.

I also saw no need to refute what the World Union of Jewish Students has to say third-hand ("media reports say") about Camp David. It refutes itself on that basis, as is trivially obvious.

As for the map. First:




This is from an extremely reliable Washinton-based think-tank, often cited in Israeli literature (including the Jewish Virtual Library - i.e. us-israel.org), non-partisan sites such as MidEastWeb, and several Israeli authored books.

Second:



This is from the right-wing Daily Telegraph, owned by the same corporation which owns the Jerusalem Post. The map is from a Palestinian source.

Note that these are both projections, given that no official maps were ever presented by the Israeli side (which is of course the point).

If Ehud Barak wants to convince people he offered "95%", the simple recourse is to show 'em a map. He didn't, which raises the obvious question - is there a map?

The answer is that there is no official Israeli or American map which shows a Palestinian state in 95% of the WB. Nor is there an official Israeli or American map which shows what the proposal at Camp David even was.

So, given this, one thing is clear:

Nobody can say what Barak offered for certain.

Yet here you are saying unequivocally that he offered "95%", despite the fact that all the available evidence (including Barak's own words) wholly contradicts that viewpoint.

Now I presume (given what is presented above) that if you are interested in talking about the facts (if not, why are you here?), you'll drop the "95%" talking point and defend Israel on some serious ground instead.

In addition, I personally think that if carrying out that (in my view, somewhat defensible) goal is your intention, you're doing a serious disservice to the people of Israel by relying on lies and fabrications in order to do it.

You are of course free to disregard that opinion if you wish.

[drdon326]

34. You are too funny...

i knew damn well there were no official maps...that you claimed
were seen "many times".

First can i get a link on maps you posted??

second, can i get a link on those statements by Edud Barak himself which disprove the "95%" theory ??

[drewb]

36. lol

[tinnypriv]

37. Here you go

Links to the maps:

http://www.fmep.org/maps (bottom of page, note that FMEP's editor is the former U.S. consul general to Jerusalem, and the journal publishes in Arabic and Hebrew).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/campaigns/middle_east/midmaps.xml (3rd from bottom).

In addition, here is the description of Camp David given on the site of The Telegraph (to repeat: as right-wing as you like):

The Camp David summit, called by President Bill Clinton in a final attempt to seek lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians, fails amid much recrimination. The breaking point in negotiations comes when Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader, refuses to accept an offer of a disjointed Palestinian state separated by large settlement blocks from the Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/campaigns/middle_east/midhist.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=77695

As for Barak's statement, here is the op-ed he wrote for The NY Times (hence proof-read and carefully considered, unlike for example a speech):

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/24/opinion/24BARA.html?ex=1070341200&en=994065c77d672688&ei=5070

In it he states his solution would be to keep "15%" of the WB for Israel. That, by simple definition means the Palestinians would get 85%, not 95%.

Note that this was written after Camp David.

[drdon326]

39. Thats it??

why do you even bother??

from the barak article

"What Israel ought to do now is take steps to ensure the long-term viability of its Jewish majority. That requires a strategy of disengagement from the Palestinians — even unilaterally if necessary — and a gradual process of establishing secure, defensible borders, demarcated so as to encompass more than 80 percent of the Jewish settlers in several settlement blocs over about 15 percent of Judea and Samaria, and to ensure a wide security zone in the Jordan Valley. We need to erect appropriate barriers to prevent the entry of suicide bombers and other attackers."

all which proves NOTHING about what happened at camp david.

AND THE TELEGRAPH timeline, not exactly what you call
an in-depth analysis and is so silly it speaks for itself.

I'm too all for defending the truth with a certain gusto, but bringing up this lame proof is more than enough to disqualify your comments.

I'm not even interested why you would waste time posting given that you cannot even come close to backing up any of statements.

[tinnypriv]

40. LOL

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery you know.

I think this just about does it on this topic.

[drdon326]

41. I dont blame you

eom

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Maybe he got sick of wasting his time...

Me, I'm still wondering why you think some propaganda from a student's group trumps all else so convincingly that you ignore everything that's shown to you. Were they, like, secret negotiators at Camp David or something? Robert Malley was at Camp David, and he really blew those silly myths of Barak making far-reaching concessions out of the water. Here's one article from him, and there's other around if you want links to them. I hope you do take the time to read it because it carries a lot more credibility than the drivel from wijs or whatever the hell it called itself...

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/14380

Violet the time-waster....

[Resistance]

28. Distorting the Camp David negotiations

http://www.fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

[Aidoneus]

24. Yes, that includes what became Israel

I think it's perhaps too late to do something about that, but I will make mention of such things all the same. That an inch of the rest is even considered "negotiable" is absurd.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Only problem there...

except Israel is the only party involved that have ACTUALLY
given up land.

Of course Israel is the only party involved that have ACTUALLY acquired land by force in the first place. So making out it's ever so wonderful for giving up land taken during war while others haven't is a moot point seeing none of the others had any land to give up in the first place...

While yr here, what has Sharon's govt done to promote peace?? I'm having no problem remembering that one - it's bugger all...


Violet...

[JohnLocke]

16. Links, please.

"don't forget that Israel has a long history of paying money to Hamas - in order to undermine the PA."

link, please.

"sure, when Israel stops putting on TV ministers that call Palestinians "vermin", "snakes", and other dehumanizing labels."

link, please.

[dai]

38. Dehumanizing labels...

...Palestinians as cancer:
http://www.shtull-trauring.org/aron/IsraelBlog/1030856926/

Palestinians as cancer, lice, and vermin:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,581099,00.html

[bemildred]

29. I'm just wondering ...

How do you evacuate something uninhabited?

In other news, Yassir Arafat announced today that he had
personally cancelled over 4000 terrorist attacks on Israel
in the last week, many of them likely to have been highly
successful, in order to show good faith. Heh.

[GabysPoppy]

30. No offense sir

Was that a tongue in cheek paragraph you just posted?

Sometimes I can be extremely naive.

[bemildred]

32. None taken.

I think my meds must be getting away from me today.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Heh heh...

I like it...

Violet...