Mouths filled with hatred

[grassfed]

Father Samuel Aghoyan, a senior Armenian Orthodox cleric in Jerusalem's Old City, says he's been spat at by young haredi and national Orthodox Jews "about 15 to 20 times" in the past decade. The last time it happened, he said, was earlier this month. "I was walking back from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and I saw this boy in a yarmulke and ritual fringes coming back from the Western Wall, and he spat at me two or three times." Wearing a dark-blue robe, sitting in St. James's Church, the main Armenian church in the Old City, Aghoyan said, "Every single priest in this church has been spat on. It happens day and night."

Father Athanasius, a Texas-born Franciscan monk who heads the Christian Information Center inside the Jaffa Gate, said he's been spat at by haredi and national Orthodox Jews "about 15 times in the last six months" - not only in the Old City, but also on Rehov Agron near the Franciscan friary. "One time a bunch of kids spat at me, another time a little girl spat at me," said the brown-robed monk near the Jaffa Gate.

"All 15 monks at our friary have been spat at," he said. "Every who's been here for awhile, who dresses in robes in public, has a story to tell about being spat at. The more you get around, the more it happens."

A nun in her 60s who's lived in an east Jerusalem convent for decades says she was spat at for the first time by a haredi man on Rehov Agron about 25 years ago. "As I was walking past, he spat on the ground right next to my shoes and he gave me a look of contempt," said the black-robed nun, sitting inside the convent. "It took me a moment, but then I understood." Since then, the nun, who didn't want to be identified, recalls being spat at three different times by young national Orthodox Jews on Jaffa Road, three different times by haredi youth near Mea She'arim and once by a young Jewish woman from her second-story window in the Old City's Jewish Quarter. But the spitting incidents weren't the worst, she said - the worst was the time she was walking down Jaffa Road and a group of middle-aged haredi men coming her way pointed wordlessly to the curb, motioning her to move off the sidewalk to let them pass, which she did

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1259231077244

[PDJane]

1. and if the hatred comes back, it's anti-semitism.

There is a store of righteous anger in this.

[shira]

4. do you apply that same reasoning to blacks, arabs, gays, or women?

you know - if whatever they do comes back to bite them on the ass - they had it coming?

[PDJane]

6. Women and gays and blacks aren't part of this discussion.

Thats's simply sophistry.

They aren't bombing the hell out of civilians, they aren't stealing resources, they are fighting, like the Palestinians, for the rights that they deserve. It's apples and oranges.

Israel is breaking the law, and has been for forty years. This is religious bigotry allied to a state that is taking over a city that is sacred to more than Jews, and a land that isn't theirs by law.

The Palestinians have been fighting for their right to their own land and culture for that long, and it's disheartening.

[shira]

7. you're minimizing antisemitism

holding all Jews accountable for the actions of a few.

tsk, tsk.

you think all orthodox within J'lem 'have it coming' to them because of the idiots within their ranks...and they have no right to complain.

i doubt you'd ever voice the same view WRT women, gays, blacks, and especially Arabs.

[PDJane]

8. That is a ridiculous assertion.

And you're deliberately misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not 'minimizing' anything. They can complain, and many do have a right to complain. But what you are minimizing is the effect that Israeli bigotry has on the general perception of the Jewish minority everywhere.

And what, pray tell, is the difference between the actions of a few stirred up Islamists and the reaction that Americans have to all Muslims? Is it at all different, and if so, why?

[Crunchy Frog]

9. Sort of similar to how you post about Palestinians.

:shrug:

[cali]

12. that's a lunatic statement filled with the hate that you often express.

really sick shit, jane.

[PDJane]

17. If you think i hate anyone,

you haven't heard what I've been saying, only what you want to hear.

And that, my friend, is not my monkey. I refuse to take delivery.

[mike_c]

2. I know we have Israelis and non-Israeli jews posting here....

Perhaps they could help answer a question? How much of this hateful conduct is nationalism and how much is religious bigotry? And before anyone changes the subject, I understand that all parties in the middle east share responsibility for the situation in Jerusalem and elsewhere-- but I'm interested in the phenomenon the OP outlines. To what extent is this behavior due to nationalism and to what extent is it an expression of religious hatred?

[shira]

3. i'd say it's almost 100% religious bigotry - no different than any other ignorant religious bigotry

i have non-jewish American friends who have worked in close proximity to the ultra-orthodox and they've also claimed that occassionally a nutter will for some reason or another spit at them.

[mike_c]

5. thanks for the response....

I'm about as un-religious as anyone can be, and more to the point, I don't know much about Judaism beyond the sort of cultural background we all pick up. Religions generally seem to foster bigotry and hatred for "others"-- again, I'm aware that's not all they do, but the point remains-- so your comments make complete sense in that light. Thanks again for your insights!

[Mosby]

16. It's not Judaism that causes this kind of behavior

It's a culturally based non-halachic version of Judaism practiced by some Haredim that allows/encourages it.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Do haredim in places like NYC behave like that? I think it's religious superiority fueled by a

sense of superiority of being in a Jewish country.

[pelsar]

20. dont get so "hi handed about it...

The problem is, not a you seem to imply that israel is a jewish country, its a matter of the secular jews, the majority, keeping the democracy.

the problem is when a govt gives religions too much in terms of "rights" that the religious tend to "overstep their bounds."

i'll bet your probably against the future Palestinian state being secular.....but prefer it being a muslim country, just like israel is a jewish country, or egypt is a muslim country, or syria, or iran, or saudi arabia.....its a long long list.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. Bullshit. If a Haredi spit on a priest in NYC, he'd have the crap beat out of him.

They do it in Israel because they feel they CAN.

I unequivocably want Palestine to be a secular country. Why would you assume otherwise?

[Vegasaurus]

22. You have expressed support for Hamas

which is not secular in the slightest.

[LeftishBrit]

23. I don't remember her supporting Hamas; I think she prefers Barghouti

If I'm wrong, she'll let us know, no doubt!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. I support democracy, even when I don't personally support the winner.

I do personally support Barghouti. I would never vote for Hamas OR Fatah.

I don't support what Hamas has done in Gaza. Unfortunately, when the democratic process was overturned, not only was Hamas denied a chance to make a go of a government, but the chance to hold them accountable using democratic means was destroyed. To me, that's the greatest loss of all.

[pelsar]

25. my assumption was based on earlier posts....but it was an assumption...

i believe part of if was based on a "sympathy" of sorts (nothing defined clearly) towards any type of Palestinian govt...no matter what kind of laws they create (presently the PA has a "death sentence thats been carried out for selling land to jews)...or hamas style ruling. I remember that your for arranged marriages (this was when your first "arrived here.")

though it they may not be your 'first choice" i get them impression that you would easily go along with a muslim state.....and with that comes the religious identity that will have its parallels to the haredi ....that was what my comment was about ..not the haredi being in NY.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. I am not "for" arranged marriages. I recognize that romantic love isn't the basis of the marriage

arrangement around the world, that it's not the be-all and end-all, and that it's not terribly successful.

That said, it's the paradigm I grew up with, and it's how I chose my mate, and raised my kids to choose. However, my BILs marriage was arranged and they are the happiest couple I've ever met.

Go figure!

[pelsar]

31. actually the arranged marriage has an advantage....no expectations...

none of this 'pie in sky" romanticism that we're brought up with in TV and the movies....so about your BIL...i'm not surprised.

and i `'take back my assumption...it was obviously wrong

[ProgressiveMuslim]

33. I think it has different expectations.

I think lots of stuff like that is relative; and that "ours" isn't necessarily the be-all because it's western and it's ours.

[Shaktimaan]

28. As a New Yorker I'd like to respond.

You seem to be implying that the Haredi act this was only in Israel and would never dream of doing so in New York. I can attest, without any doubt or hesitation that you are flat out wrong here.

Friends of mine who have lived in predominantly Hasidic neighborhoods have had all sorts of problems related to their arrogance and expectation that the entire area defer to their expectations.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. I'm saying if a Haredi was walking down Broadway and spit on a priest, there'd be a problem.

Do you disagree with that?

[Shaktimaan]

30. No, I don't disagree...

but then Broadway isn't the area that the Hasidim think of as "theirs." The things to remember about these incidents is that they occurred in the place that these people feel belongs to them exclusively and also that the worst examples were perpetuated by kids, who tend to express their opinions in ways that reflect a lack of insight and respect.

Not that I'm defending what happened. Far from it. But the incidents like the woman being shuttled off the road so that Haredim could pass are very similar to the kinds of things I've seen, heard and read about happening in traditional Hasidic neighborhoods in Brooklyn. And what happens in those areas usually doesn't represent the way these people act outside of them. It has to do with a belief that they should be able to call the shots in "their" place, even at the expense of minority inhabitants.

Regardless, it's a disgusting practice, whatever the motivation. But if a Hasidim acted out like this in the middle of tel aviv I imagine you'd see a reaction on par with your broadway example. My point is just that you wouldn't see it happen in either place because the "reasoning" behind it lies with ideology and geography. I don't see it as having to do with Israel being a Jewish country. These idiots act the same in brooklyn as they do in jerusalem.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

32. Perhaps. I suppose it's just that Israel provides much more space that is "theirs."

[oberliner]

34. Ever been to New Square, New York?

Try driving through there on Shabbos and you'll get more than just spat on.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. I lived in Brooklyn once upon a time.

[oberliner]

36. It's worse in Rockland County

And I might add, they seem to reserve their highest degree of disgust for Reform and Conservative Jews.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. Why is their crap tolerated within the Jewish community?

[Violet_Crumble]

10. What's it got to do with non-Israeli Jews?

I can understand asking Israelis that question, and I'd be interested in knowing if pelsar or eyl (if he's around) thoughts on it.

[pelsar]

11. its nothing "special"...the usual religious bigotry....

comes with the religion...my son and his youth group were told to change their "route" as they were exploring a religious jewish neighborhood (mixed boy and girl group) in jerusalem.
it comes from their feeling that they "own the land"....and are the guardians of such, everyone else is a bit lower on the evolutionary ladder (though we can be saved).

I'm just used to it, hence the lack of response on my part...and i actually expect such behavior from them, which probably is worse.

[mike_c]

14. that was my thinking, too....

Perhaps one of them will add their thoughts later.

I included non-Israelis because my knowledge of jewish culture is rather limited, so I assumed that if this is religion based, rather than nationalism, non-Israeli jewish people might also have experienced problems with the ultra-orthodox and might have insights-- much like your average go-to-church-once-or-twice-a-year christian might have about christian fundamentalists.

[LeftishBrit]

15. Prohably mostly religious bigotry in this case,

[cali]

13. disgusting behavior.

the haredi are scary, insane religious fanatics.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Real princes among men. Not! nt

[imdjh]

27. I'd spit on the Bishop of St Petersburg if he were to pass within spitting distance ...

... and if I were confident in a visual ID on him. Unfortunately, he doesn't wear the get-up to the grocery store.

This has nothing to do with the article, that I know of. Merely pointing out that were I to spit on Bishop Lynch, it would not be an act of bigotry or prejudice, it would be an act of aggression in response to his actions as Bishop of St Petersburg, minion of the Vatican, and all around asshole.

I would also spit on the Grand Wizard of the Knights of Columbus if I saw him on the streets of Washington DC.