The Goldstone Disconnect (Yossi Alpher)

[oberliner]

Justice Richard Goldstone and the three other members of a panel commissioned by the United Nations Human Rights Council want Israel to investigate all the war crimes they attribute to its military operation in Gaza last winter. Otherwise, Goldstone threatens, a global court that tries such cases should judge Israel for war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. Goldstone acknowledges that the Israeli military has been looking at a number of allegations of war crimes by its personnel in Gaza. But he belittles these proceedings as grossly inadequate because the Israeli armed forces are not incriminating themselves in accordance with his standards.

The problem is that Goldstone is judging Israel on the basis of totally different rules than those Israel applies to its warfare against terrorist enemies like Hezbollah and Hamas. Customary international humanitarian law was written for wars between the armies of sovereign states. These days, in both Gaza and Lebanon, Israel is confronting terrorist mini-states, each of whose territory is a sovereign black hole left behind by a failed governing authority. The Goldstone commission applies laws of war that ignore the necessities of fighting a terrorist enemy that attacks civilians from bases in non-sovereign territory, hides behind its own civilian population, then displays its own civilian casualties in order to appeal for international support.

Here are two paragraphs from the Goldstone commission report that, juxtaposed, show this disconnect in its starkest terms:

Para. 1208. A statement of objectives that explicitly admits the intentional targeting of civilian objects as part of the Israeli strategy is attributed to the Deputy Chief of Staff, Maj. Gen. Dan Harel…. “This operation is different…. We are hitting not only terrorists and launchers, but also the whole Hamas government and all its wings…. We are hitting government buildings, production factories, security wings and more. We are demanding governmental responsibility from Hamas….”

Para. 1725. The Mission finds that the attacks against the Palestinian Legislative Council building and the main prison in Gaza constituted deliberate attacks on civilian objects in violation of the rule of customary international humanitarian law….

By Goldstone’s standards, virtually all Gazans are civilians, and all structures in Gaza are civilian structures. By Israel’s standards, the Palestinian Legislative Council building, the main prison and many other facilities had been thoroughly corrupted by Hamas’s takeover. Goldstone’s rules of war forbid attacking mosques, schools and hospitals; Israel encountered mosques used as arms depots, schools as forward command posts and the main Gaza hospital as Hamas’s central command post.

http://www.forward.com/articles/114910/

[Donald Ian Rankin]

1. Note that he freely admits that Israel commited war crimes.

Alpher makes no attempt to argue that Israel did not break the laws of war; rather, he claims that it was morally justifiable for it to do so.

If Israel is going to use this as its defence, it should be upfront about it - rather than denying that it has committed war crimes, it should proudly admit it, and demand support for doing so, and for changeing international law, permitting it to do so - and permitting its enemies to do so against it.

[shira]

2. war crimes, being...............what exactly?

Israeli military lawyers and commanders were enforcing a different set of rules — the ones used by the American military at Fallujah in Iraq, by NATO in Kosovo and by the Sri Lankans in Jaffna; in Israel’s case, the ones imposed on us by Hamas.

do you mean those kinds of war crimes?

because if so, here's what Goldstone concluded a decade ago...
http://www.icty.org/sid/10052#IVB3

read paragraphs #71-77, the conclusion in #77, note that this was written by Goldstone in 1999, and then tell me what the difference is between what NATO did (legally) then and what Israel is doing now.

the point is, Goldstone's a fraud....he knows well what Israel is up against and he's applying unfair, dishonest, and morally reprehensible double-standards.

it's one thing to hold Israel to a different standard than Hamas, but also to NATO?

what gives? besides blatant discrimination?

not that you'll actually reply - but are you now starting to understand why no Western nations are backing up Goldstone's crappy report...and why it would be thrown out of any respectable and impartial court?

[oberliner]

3. Do you believe that anything will come of this report? nt

[shira]

4. don't know...

the whole point, IMO, is demonization, more bad press, more angering the masses and more angry mobs.

...in what amounts to a totally regressive agenda (shades of historic blood libels).

if you can't get Israel with the facts, make them up, even if that means using Palestinians as political pawns - as the Arab nations have been doing for over 60 years - Goldstone is following the exact same playbook.

it's not shocking that the UNHRC with its majority regressive membership is doing this - it's that influential people like Goldstone have joined the bandwagon and are just as vile and disgusting in supporting such a foul agenda.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. This line of reasoning is insane:

"We can't be held accountable to rules of war, because the people we're massacreing aren't a soverign nation, they're a nation-wannabe that we've been suppressing for 5 decades..."

In other words, Israel has basically decreed these peolpe will never be a sovereign nation, and therefore, Israel can commit any crime against them, since there really aren't rules of war that apply to the insane situation Israel perpetuates.

Does that about cover it?

[shira]

6. what's really insane....

is the idea that one can deal with an enemy who fires into another nation's territory, behind a human shield, without killing civilians.

And then, once that nation knows they are going to kill civilians and they work on damage-minimization strategies, that's amazingly labeled 'deliberate killing' of civilians.

That's what's insane.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Insane is expecting a people to consent to their own destruction.

But you know that don't you?

[shira]

9. you think that's what Hamas thinks? their charter doesn't say that.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

10. Cut the crap. The gov't of Israel won't even agree to halting their despicable settlement

expansion.

You'll always have a reason why Palestinians should only be entitled to a half-life.

It's shameful.

[shira]

11. why pretend Hamas just wants an end to occupation and then peace thereafter?

and why pretend that life under Hamas for Palestinians is better than some half-life?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. Your posts are the epitome of western ethnocentric racism.

Do you get dizzy from your own spin?

That ANYONE in Palestine still has a desire for peace is a testament to the human spirit.

[shira]

13. Palestinians in Gaza can't speak out against Hamas and all the destruction they have brought to...

...Palestinians in Gaza.

What's your excuse?

Why pretend Hamas is something they are not, or good for the Palestinian people, or that they have Palestinian best interests at heart?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. or that Israel was instrumental in their creation?

Shira, I'm no fan of Hamas. The particular situation in Gaza surely couldn't have worked out better for Israel, though, could it?

Is Hamas serving the best interests of the people of Gaza at this point in time? No they are not. Is the PA? Most CERTAINLY not! Is it time for a third intifadah throwing off both the corrupt bootlickers and the fundies AS WELL AS the yoke of Israel's tyranny? HELL YES.

Bottom line:

Isarel was smart. No charter there. The nation just dispossesses, murders, arrests, destroys as it sees fit, all the while crying about the written words of those they destroy. It's ironically villanous when you really think about.

[shira]

20. who is going to lead this 3rd intifada against Fatah, Hamas, and the IDF?

[bemildred]

8. The whole point of international law, the Geneva Conventions, etc.

is that nobody gets to make up their own "standards", that there are standards that everyone ought to comply with. The alternative is everybody makes their own "standards" as they consider that expediency dictates, and that amounts to no rules at all, or at least nothing that one can rely on.

If you are happy with that, then OK, go for it. But I would suggest that that is a mistake.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I noticed the author seemed to think Israel should get to create their own standards....

He also refers to customary international humanitarian law as 'Goldstone's rules of war'. I know people have been tending to blame Mr Goldstone for just about everything, but I think crediting him for the creation of a body of international law that's been around for a long time now is pushing it a bit...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. ... Alpher is a bitterlemons editor. Isn't he supposed to be a "good guy?"

[Violet_Crumble]

22. That thought crossed my mind as well n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. The cognitive discconect is really mind-blowing.

Look at Alper's bio though... he's ex-Mossad.

[oberliner]

19. That's not what he is doing

The author of the article refers to "Goldstone's rules of war" not to credit him with their creation but to reiterate that Goldstone is using a set of international laws that the author does not believe to be applicable to the conflict in question.

The author specifically refers to "customary international humanitarian law" and indicates that it was "written for wars between the armies of sovereign states." The author does not suggest that Goldstone himself created that law.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. If it's not what was intended, the guy's a very clumsy writer...

Mind you, the premise of the article was very clumsy anyway...

I've noticed you've been posting articles that are attacking Richard Goldstone. Do you agree with the articles you've been posting? In particular I'd like to know if you agree with the writer of this one who believes that Israel should be able to decide what standards it should stick to when it comes to rules?

[oberliner]

23. I would say that I am still in the "gathering information" phase

As I confessed in an earlier post, I have not taken the time to read the entire 500+ page report that was produced by the Goldstone-led group.

I've read a number of articles regarding the report, both critical and complimentary. A couple of the critical ones had not made their way to DU so I thought I would share them for further discussion.

Yossi Alpher is a generally thoughtful analyst so I thought posting his might generate some productive dialogue (moreso than the Dershowitz article which would probably been best left unshared with the DU I/P community).

[Violet_Crumble]

24. That's a wise place to hang out in for a while, I think...

I gave up trying to read the report all the way through, and I've just got it downloaded so I can flick through it if someone mentions anything in particular and gives a page number to go to...

I haven't read anything else by Alpher and have only read things from Bitter Lemons a few times long ago, so I'm not sure if this article's indicative of his style. I'd hope not, because I did think he was a bit sloppy in this article...

[bemildred]

25. I just wanted to point out that you cannot have it both ways.

Either there are universal standards that everyone is expected to adhere to, or there are not, and everybody gets to make it up as they go along.

The OP doesn't really deserve much comment.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

28. There are standards for full-humans and standards for partial-humans like Palestinians.

That's basically the upshot.

[bemildred]

30. Well, I'd say you have standards that apply to everyone, or you have bullshit.

But yeah, OK.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. I agree with you.

The nonsense peddled in this OP, by a "good guy" is a joke. And it shines the light on how far apart the two sides truly are.

Let's put it plainly.

You can't violently oppress a people for 40 years and think you have the right to massacre them wholesale for resisting your violent oppression using violence.

No sane American would ever agree that they would not have the right to use violence to defend themselves against a violent oppressor.

How has Israel managed to convince the world that Palestinians alone lack the right to resist? It's a question I find very interesting.

[ConsAreLiars]

14. "The problem is that Goldstone is judging Israel on the basis of totally different rules than those

Israel applies."

Much like a defense counsel arguing (whining) that the US courts applied standards different than Bundy or Manson applied. How pathetic is that as a defense argument? Not too sick for the Oberliner, it seems.

[shira]

16. if you read post #2 and the link within, you'll see Goldstone applying double-standards

[bemildred]

26. "I was just doing my job."

Which amounts to a denial of one's own moral agency.

[oberliner]

27. Not too sick for Oberliner?

Jeez, this is an Op Ed piece published in The Forward.

It is posted here for discussion purposes only.

Obviously, I did not write the piece.

I would appreciate your sharing your perspective without referring to someone as "sick" merely for posting an op-ed piece.

[ConsAreLiars]

33. I didn't call you "sick," as you falsely claim. The reference was to the POV revealed in the

article you posted and others you often post. If your intent in such postings is to reveal the prevalence of a supremacist ideology within Israel's powerful elite and among their right-wing base in the US, then good for you.

[oberliner]

34. Thank you for that

I apologize for misinterpreting your comment.

I would add that the intent of none of my posts is what you described.

Most of what I post are news items or op-eds from people who are liberals, Democrats or both.

[azurnoir]

35. I must ask what is your take on both Goldstone's report and

the Obama administrations public statement concerning the report?

[oberliner]

36. Well I have not read the 500+ page report

As I mentioned to another poster, I would say that I am still in the "gathering information" phase.

I've read a number of articles regarding the report, both critical and complimentary.

Have you had a chance to read it?

[azurnoir]

37. No I have not read it either

and like you have been reading what others are saying about the report
as to the Obama administrations critique of the report what I think is that lets say I would certainly not want to play chess with President Obama

[shira]

32. it appears the rules need revising but Israel is playing by them - Goldstone is not

151 The Law of Armed Conflict not only prohibits targeting an enemy’s civilians; it also requires parties to an armed conflict to distinguish their combatant forces from their own civilians, and not to base operations in or near civilian structures, especially protected sites such as schools, medical facilities and places of worship. As the customary law principle is reflected in Article 51(7) of Additional Protocol I,

“The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or shield, favour or impede military operations.”

152 This general prohibition applies with particular force to schools and other facilities regularly attended by children. Thus, “children shall be the object of special respect and shall be protected against any form of indecent assault.”(150) Medical facilities and ambulances are also singled out for special protection. Thus, “under no circumstances shall medical units be used in an attempt to shield military objectives from attack.”(151) Similarly, combatants are forbidden to use places of worship such as mosques in support of military efforts.(152)
153 The reason for these rules is clear. When a party to an armed conflict uses civilian and protected spaces for military purposes, those spaces become legitimate targets for the opposing side, thereby placing civilian lives and infrastructure in grave danger. (153)

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Hamas+war+against+Israel/Operation_Gaza_factual_and_legal_aspects_use_of_force_Hamas_breaches_law_of_armed_conflict_5_Aug_200.htm