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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:28 PM
Original message
Analysis: Blocking the truth behind the Gaza war
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 11:31 PM by shira
Was the UN commission's approach one-sided against Israel, or unbiased and objective as commission chairman Richard Goldstone contended?

Statements of Palestinians recorded by the commission and posted on the UN Web site provide reliable evidence of the commission's methodology and raise serious questions about its intentions to discover the truth. Commission members did not ask the interviewed Palestinians questions about the activities of Hamas and the other Palestinian terrorist organizations operating in the Gaza Strip which could be classified as war crimes or that were potentially dangerous to innocent Palestinians. They never asked about:

1. Launching rockets at Israeli towns and villages from within residential dwellings.
2. Firing mortar shells into Palestinian neighborhoods when IDF soldiers were operating in or near the area.
3. Firing anti-tank missiles, rifles and machine guns at Palestinian buildings in Gaza suspected of having been entered by the IDF despite the presence of Palestinian civilians in the area.
4. Seizing private homes from which to ambush IDF units.
5. Booby-trapping houses before and during the war and detonating the bombs.
6. Planting various types of anti-personnel and improvised anti-vehicular bombs near houses and detonating them;
7. Sniping and firing heavy machine guns at Israeli soldiers within residential areas.

None of the statements taken by the commission (as posted on the UN Web site) reported even a single instance of the presence of armed Palestinians, or of Palestinians firing rockets at Israel or shooting at IDF soldiers operating in the Gaza Strip. There was no serious consideration of Palestinian "friendly fire" incidents, which occur with the most disciplined armies. We can only guess how many Palestinian civilians were killed or wounded by Palestinian fire. In fact, the statements reported that throughout the entire three weeks of fighting there was no significant Palestinian resistance. The commission did not press the witnesses in order to elicit more information and did not confront them with the reports issued by the terrorist organizations themselves, which detailed the fighting in a way that often contradicted the Palestinian witnesses. It did not adequately examine Palestinian rules of engagement - or the lack of any such rules. In addition, the witnesses hid vital information from the commission regarding the presence of armed terrorists or exchanges of fire in their vicinity, casting doubt on their reliability.

<snip>

more...
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1253198167357&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. It is a pitty that Israel did not coopoerate with the commission...
Perhaps they could have insisted on more thorough questioning.

It is also intersting that the article mentions "freely accessible Palestinian sources (in Arabic)" but simply makes claims about what they say without making the records available or even stating where these records are found.

I find this article about as objective, unbiased, and reliable as the UN Investigation, which is to say not at all. It is the equivalent of saying "I know I am, but what are you."
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Israel knew when they denied access to their records that the Goldstone report would be an epic fail
True believers say otherwise, but without the IDF records, claims of war crimes are unsustainable. The only reason Nuremberg was as thorough as it was is that the Allies had complete access to all available German records.

That Goldstone when easy on Hamas is pretty clear since he did not substantively address Hamas MOUT tactics and effects.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. You mean to say Israel *hoped*, not that they *knew*...
I'm not sure why someone who hasn't read the report would call it an Epic Fail, when it's not. Interesting that it's only True Believers who haven't even bothered reading the report who keep on going on about how flawed it is, but never actually come out with anything concrete. I asked you in another post whether you could try to be specific with criticisms and move beyond the *it sucks because I say so* approach, but you don't appear to be willing to do that...
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. The report found that both sides comitted warcrimes...
Which is as close to a fact as you can get. Iraeli's own soldiers have said that, just as Hamas tactic of firing unguided rockets at civilians is a known warcrime.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. no, it 'found' that Hamas wasn't largely responsible for Palestinian casualties...
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 01:33 PM by shira
...and that instead, Israel was largely responsible - despite the fact that Hamas committed war crimes by very deliberately and cynically using Gaza civilians as a shield to hide behind while attacking Israel. This report encourages only more of the same behavior from Hamas, and if the Goldstone commission has its way - these kinds of reports will make it almost impossible for Western nations to defend themselves against illegal terrorist militias fighting assymetrically - in other words, a complete disaster for the cause of human rights or peace.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. You should read the report.....
It found that Hamas rocket and mortar attacks were warcrimes, and Israels attacks on civilians were also considered warcrimes.

In that, it was even handed and accurate, since Israeli Sldiers have freely admited that they used Palastinains as human shields and fired without provacaton on Palastinians.

Both sides are complicit. Both sides made choices that amount to crimes against humanity. If you desire peace in the region, don't take sides. There is blame to go around.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. i am reading it
did you look at post #6 below? what do you think about that?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. Do you seriously think that ALL civilian casualties in Gaza were due to their being used as human
shields in Hamas operations?

Hamas don't generally give a flying fuck about their own citizens, and they have used human shields at times, but that doesn't mean that ALL civilian casualties were human shields, unless you are using a very loose definition of the phrase.

Reports will not make anything 'impossible'; Western and other nations can and do choose what they do. But in general I do think that terrorists should be treated as criminal gangs, and that our nations' bombing their countries and regions to get at the terrorists has been both a warcrime and singularly ineffective in achieving its purpose. And by 'our nations' I do mean 'our nations': the USA and UK. If there is hypocrisy here, it is not in the basic principles of the Goldstone Report, but in the fact that the UN are prepared to commission such a report for Israel, but not for the USA, UK, or for instance Russia.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. not all, but more than likely the majority
1. You wrote Hamas used human shields at times....you don't think that was their main strategy when goading Israel to attack?

2. You think Hamas is just a criminal gang or the actual governing body of Gaza?
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whosinpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
55. Totally untrue
snip - The mission's final report was released 15 September 2009, and accused both Israeli Defense Forces and Palestinian militants of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. It recommended that the sides openly investigate their own conduct and, should they fail to do so, that the allegations to be brought to the International Criminal Court.


And yet, Shira states that having both sides investigate their own conduct....somehow this is encourages the same behavior of Hamas.
Yeah - having Hamas face the international criminal court is actually a good thing for Hamas - in the world of Shira.....

Yes - Shira - I will agree with you that this report questions quite strongly and correctly that fighting assymetrically against a terrorist group is the wrong approach. You aren't fighting for the peace of palistinians and Israeli's - you are fighting for the legitimacy of extrajudicial assasination - bombing a whole household of family members legitimately when one member MIGHT be involved in a group associated with terror. You are fighting that holding persons without charge indefinately is acceptable. You are fighting that torture is ok. You are fighting that laws and justice have no meaning at all. You talk about justice, but the words ring empty.

And sadly Shira - you are fighting to allow Hamas to continue exactly what it is doing, that the international criminal court should hold no power over Hamas, nor should Hamas be forced to examine its own war crimes record.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. You're misinformed
1. Hamas was never held accountable - and deliberately so - by Goldstone for using Palestinian civilians as human shields. They get a free pass to continue to put Palestinian innocents in danger the very next time they decide to go to war, and they know well that they can get away with it b/c Goldstone approves.

'Hamas used kids as human shields'
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=171009

Goldstone the apartheid-judge is a real hero, right? :eyes:

2. The Report makes it illegal for Israel to defend itself. If Hamas fires rockets from an apartment building and Israel fires back killing 5 Hamas and 2 civilians, Goldstone considers that a war crime. The impression is that Israel is to allow rockets to be fired without being able to defend and fire back. Of course, Hamas gets no blame for embedding themselves illegally within civilian populations, a warcrime in itself.

3. There's nothing stopping Goldstone from reporting against Hamas. Wouldn't that be the right thing to do, in the interest of peace and human rights?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. The commission would have just ignored Israel, so it hardly matters
Edited on Wed Sep-23-09 02:03 PM by shira
Here's what the IDF made public 2 months ago...
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Terrorism+and+Islamic+Fundamentalism-/Operation_in_Gaza-Factual_and_Legal_Aspects.htm

The Goldstone Commission could have attempted to fairly weigh their findings vs. IDF claims, but here's an example of what occured...
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=18&x_article=1729

That's not insignificant.

That's pretty damn big.

But that's what Israel gets with the UNHRC, whether they cooperate or not.

=============

ETA:
If the Goldstone commission is committed to accuracy and fairness, they shouldn't have any problem properly addressing and correcting this 'error', right?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. Very good points!
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 01:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. Do you have a link to where the interviews are posted on the UN site?
I couldn't find them and I'd be interested in seeing them....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. here's a link
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thanks. For some reason I can't get any of the webcasts to play...
Crap computer....
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
12. Ben Dror Yemini - Goldstone is the criminal
GOLDSTONE IS THE CRIMINAL
(Article by Ben-Dror Yemini, Ma'ariv, 25.9.09, p. B4-5)

Let's start at the end. Richard Goldstone perpetrated a moral crime. Not against the State of Israel but against human rights. He turned them into a weapon for dark regimes. Goldstone was not negligent. He did this with malice.

The criticism that was made in the first days following the report was on the basis of preliminary study. But time passes. And the more that the details of this report are revealed, the more it becomes clear that it is a libel. A libel with legal cover. A libel that was prepared in advance to incriminate the State of Israel, in the service of Libya and Iran. Goldstone willingly took up the loathsome role. He supplied these countries with the goods. The claim that "the discourse of rights" has become the dark forces' most effective tool is a familiar one. The Goldstone report is the supreme expression of this. Its legal terminology is exemplary. It gushes about international human rights treaties. But it cannot hide the result: It is a libelous indictment of the State of Israel, in the service of the axis of terrorism and evil. Yes, there is marginal – very marginal – lip service regarding criticism of Hamas. Goldstone's ilk is a sophisticated lot. They now reiterate from every stage, and Goldstone does it well, that they were actually objective. Here, they also leveled criticism at Hamas. How enlightened of them!

MUCH MORE...
http://zionism-israel.com/israel_news/2009/09/goldstoned-again.html


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Do you wet your pants when you post this rightwing crap?
Get real!
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Ben Dror Yemini is left-of-center
I realize you're into fantasy more than reality for all things I/P, so maybe this one isn't for you.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. DLC is called moderate
but we know it isn't.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. Yemini is moderate in that he supports a two-state solution. However...
Edited on Mon Oct-26-09 07:15 AM by LeftishBrit
this doesn't make his views on critics of Israel moderate.

When someone insists that their opponents must have acted out of 'malice' and 'lying', it gets in the way of considering the facts. What's important is not whether someone's criticism is caused by 'malice', but whether it's correct or incorrect or unproven. Accusing Goldstone of working in the interests of 'forces of darkness' and 'the axis of terrorism and evil' is very reminiscent of the 'war on terror' which has led to such disaster, and the Bushian view that 'whoever is not with us is against us'. There are actually some valid points here: yes, Hamas is a crap government; yes, they have killed and endangered lots of Muslims as well as others; yes, they killed more Palestinians than Israelis (about three times as many, IIRC) during OCL. But the valid points get swamped in all the rhetoric.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. It appears based on the many intentional errors of the Goldstone Report that BD Yemini's description
...isn't really off base.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x288006#288244
see posts #13,24,25

Reading those critiques, it's difficult to imagine Goldstone didn't deliberately do as Yemini suggests.

Note that despite these critiques, Goldstone still claims that there exists no substantive critiques of his report - only attacks on his character.

I don't see why anyone in the know should take him seriously.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. MFA: INITIAL RESPONSE TO REPORT OF THE FACT FINDING MISSION ON GAZA ESTABLISHED PURSUANT TO RESOLU
24 September 2009

INITIAL RESPONSE TO REPORT OF THE FACT FINDING MISSION
ON GAZA ESTABLISHED PURSUANT TO RESOLUTION S-9/1 OF THE
HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL


General:

1. The Report of the Fact-Finding Mission established pursuant to Human Rights
Council resolution S-9/1 was instigated as part of a political campaign, and itself
represents a political assault directed against Israel and against every State forced
to confront terrorist threats.

2. In the eyes of the authors of the Report, Israel's operation in Gaza had nothing to
do with the 12,000 rockets and mortars fired by Hamas over eight years on towns
and villages inside Israel, nor with the fact that close to one million Israeli citizens
had to live their lives within seconds of bomb-shelters because they were in range
of Hamas attacks. Nor, in their view, did it have anything to do with the
smuggling of weapons and ammunition to terrorist groups through hundreds of
tunnels under the Gaza-Egypt border. Indeed, neither the right to self defense nor
the smuggling of weapons into the Gaza Strip are even mentioned in the Report.

3. Rather, the Report advances a narrative which ignores the threats to Israeli
civilians, as well as Israel's extensive diplomatic and political efforts to avoid the
outbreak of hostilities. In this narrative self defense finds no place – Israel's
defensive operation was nothing other than a "deliberately disproportionate attack
designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population" (¶ 1690(2)1).

MUCH MORE.....
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/FC985702-61C4-41C9-8B72-E3876FEF0ACA/0/GoldstoneReportInitialResponse240909.pdf

(actually, 24 pages more)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. Open Letter from Trevor Norwitz to Judge Goldstone
Edited on Mon Oct-26-09 05:45 AM by shira
http://goldstonereport.org/pro-and-con/48-critics/316-trevor-norvitz-open-letter-to-judge-goldstone-191009

Dear Richard:
I have finally completed my review of your Report1 which, by its very length, defends itself
against the risk of being read quickly or widely, to paraphrase that infamous war criminal (by
your definition) Winston Churchill.

I am profoundly disappointed by the contents of your Report, but I am also troubled by the ad
hominem attacks that have been directed towards you. I offer this analysis and critique in the
spirit of your article in the Jerusalem Post today2, looking only at the substance of your Report
and relying neither on its authors’ motives nor their reputation.
I do so in an effort to advance
the cause of truth and in the hope that you may yet be willing to take actions to mitigate the
terrible injustice and damage that your Report is causing. To that end, I am respectfully
including some suggestions for you at the end of this letter (which is longer than the one I sent
you on July 14 – attached again for your reference – but which I hope you will take time to read).


<snip>


Norwitz grew up in Cape Town where he attended SACS and UCT before going on to Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-26-09 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Understanding the Goldstone Report - a comprehensive website
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
17. Barak 'incensed, but not surprised' by Goldstone Report
Faulty methodology, politicization, and a failure to grasp the logic of self-defense led a United Nations-appointed judge to accuse Israel of war crimes during its three-week offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip earlier this year, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said.

In an op-ed piece which appeared in Friday editions of the Wall Street Journal, Barak assailed the controversial report compiled by a UN human rights commission led by South African war crimes prosecutor Richard Goldstone.

"Although I am incensed by the Goldstone Report, I must admit that I was not surprised," the defense minister wrote. "It is, more than anything else, a political statement - not a legal analysis." Earlier this month, Goldstone's commission concluded that both Israel and Palestinian militant groups committed war crimes and acts that were likely crimes against humanity during the fighting in the Gaza Strip earlier this year.

In a 547-page report, the mission said both Israeli and Palestinian authorities must engage in "good faith, independent roceedings" to investigate their own sides within six months, or the UN Security Council should refer the case to the International Criminal Court's prosecutor in The Hague.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117094.html
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Ehud Barak has been a cheerleader for the status quo
Who can forget the phony "Barak's generous offer" to Arafat.

Can't believe this POS is still head of Labour, which may explain why Labour is becoming a non-factor in the Knesset.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Barak is all about Barak.
That has been clear for quite a long time now.

Since he was defense minister when OCL was planned and executed, it's not too surprising he doesn't like Mr Goldstone's report.
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
20. In refusing to provide any information whatsoever to the Commission, Israel forfeited
its right to complain that the Commission's report lacked particular information. Just like voting -- if you don't do it, don't complain about the result.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Israel's non-cooperation doesn't account for the Goldstone Report being a joke from start to finish
if you read the 24-page MFA response in #13 above, you'll see that even if Israel cooperated it wouldn't have made any difference.

The report is garbage.

All that's missing from it are accusations of Israel distributing horny gum to Gaza youth or using penis-shrinking rays on Palestinian men.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. The fact that the Israeli authorities refused to cooperate or provide access to whatever
Edited on Sun Sep-27-09 01:44 AM by ConsAreLiars
information they may control is perfectly understandable.

No criminal would ever cooperate with any investigation of the crimes he had commited, and if the investigator had no power to subpoena that information, the criminal and his gang members would just denounce the investigator and claim he was being framed by an investigator who lacked some information and hadn't heard their version.

It's very easy to see through. For most people, at least.

(edit to add a bit)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-27-09 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. read the MFA report in post #13 above before you go accusing anyone of being criminal
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-02-09 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
31. Howard Berman (D) point-by-point refutation of Goldstone letter to Congress
Edited on Mon Nov-02-09 11:02 PM by shira
http://blogs.jta.org/politics/article/2009/11/02/1008903/berman-goldstone-the-grownups

Dear Colleague:

Last week, Justice Richard Goldstone sent us and other Members a memorandum outlining his “strong reservations about the text of the resolution” (H.Res.867) that will be voted upon by the House tomorrow. We have the utmost respect for Justice Goldstone, but we disagree with his criticisms of H.Res.867. Our primary concerns are as follows:

–The mandate of the commission Justice Goldstone chaired (“The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict”) was one-sided and biased, and, even though Justice Goldstone made earnest efforts to alter the mandate, he did not fully succeed, as we indicate below. We intend to alter the resolution to take account of Justice Goldstone’s effort.


–The commission’s report lacks context. It does not take account of the nature of Israel’s enemy – operating from the midst of civilian populations, committed to Israel’s destruction, and fully supported by state actors Iran and Syria. (In fact, it is rather dismissive of claims that Hamas operated from amidst civilian populations.) The report generally gives short shrift to Hamas’ relentless rocket attacks on Israeli civilians, over a period of eight years, which precipitated the war.

–The report does not take into account the extent to which witnesses from Gaza were likely intimidated by Hamas.

–In general, the report is credulous of Hamas claims but skeptical of Israeli claims.

We would like to share with you, below, my point-by-point analysis of Justice Goldstone’s comments.

Sincerely,

HOWARD L. BERMAN, Chairman GARY L. ACKERMAN, Chairman

Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Middle East

and South Asia


Letter and Response




Goldstone:

“MEMORANDUM

FROM: RICHARD GOLDSTONE

TO: INTERESTED PERSONS

RE: HR 867

“Here are some comments on this resolution in an effort to correct factual errors:
“1. Paragraph 3:That is why I and others refused the original mandate – it only called for an investigation into violations committed by Israel. The mandate given to and accepted by me and under which we worked and reported reads as follows:
‘. . .to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza during the period from 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, whether before, during or after.’

“That mandate clearly included rocket and mortar attacks on Israel and as the report makes clear was so interpreted and implemented. It was the report with that mandate that was adopted by the Human Rights Council and that included the serious findings made against Hamas and other militant Palestinian groups.”

Response: The broadened mandate Justice Goldstone sought was discussed, but not voted on, at a UNHRC plenary session. It was then announced via a press release in an altered formulation, more restrictive than the formulation envisioned by Justice Goldstone. The UNHRC did not create a new mandate. The only relevant mandate remained the one which includes operational paragraph 14 of UNHRC resolution A/HRC/S-9/L.1, as was accepted by the Council on January 12, 2009. The January 12 mandate was also the only mandate referenced in the October 16 UNHRC resolution that adopted the Report.


This whereas clause focuses on the mandate. Of course, the far more important issue is the Report itself, which makes only limited mention of the rocket attacks on Israel.


Goldstone: “2. Paragraph 4: This is factually incorrect. Chapter XXIV of the Report considers in detail the relentless rocket attacks from Gaza on Israel and the terror it caused to the people living within their range. The finding is made that they constituted serious war crimes and possibly crimes against humanity.”

Response: Paragraph 4 of H.Res.867 is addressing the mandate, not the Report. It reads as follows: “Whereas the mandate of the ‘‘fact-finding mission’’ makes no mention of the relentless rocket and mortar attacks, which numbered in the thousands and spanned a period of eight years, by Hamas and other violent militant groups in Gaza against civilian targets in Israel, that necessitated Israel’s defensive measures”. That statement is an accurate characterization of both the formal mandate, as passed by the UNHRC, and of the broadened mandate requested by Justice Goldstone.


Goldstone: “3. Paragraph 5: The member concerned, Professor Christine Chinkin of the London School of Economics, in the same letter, together with other leading international lawyers, also condemned as war crimes the Hamas rockets fired into Israel.”

Response: The letter Professor Chinkin signed, which was published in the British press in mid-January, did indeed accuse Hamas of war crimes. But it also accused Israel of war crimes, months before the investigation began, clearly prejudging the outcome of the investigation regarding both parties. In my view, Professor Chinkin should have been disqualified from serving on the commission, based on her having signed the letter. The UN watchdog UN Watch notes that Justice Goldstone himself admitted in an August interview that the signature “would have been grounds for disqualification” if the commission had constituted a formal judicial inquiry.

Goldstone: “4. Paragraph 6: The mandate that was given to the Mission was certainly not opposed by all or even a majority of the States to which reference is made. That is factually incorrect. I am happy to provide further details if necessary.”

Response: H.Res.867 uses the phrase “refused to support,” not “opposed by,” as Justice Goldstone suggests. The language of H.Res.867 was carefully chosen to include those nations who voted no, those who abstained, and those who chose not to vote at all, i.e., all those who “refused to support.”


Goldstone: “5. Paragraph 7: This too is factually incorrect. The mandate that had been rejected was the one I rejected. Mary Robinson, for example, has written in support of the mandate given to and accepted by me.”

Response: As indicated above, the formal mandate is that contained in the UNHRC Resolution A/HRC/S-9/L.1.

Goldstone: “6. Paragraph 9: The words quoted relate to the decision we made that it would have been unfair to investigate and make finding on situations where decisions had been made by Israeli soldiers ‘in the fog of battle’. This was a decision made in favor and not against the interests of Israel.

“I do not consider that it is fair or just to label the findings as ’sweeping and unsubstantiated determinations’.”

Response: When summarizing the results of investigations into alleged Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians, the Report states that “the Mission found in every case that the Israeli armed forces had carried out direct intentional strikes against civilians” and that “in none of the cases reviewed were there any grounds which could have reasonably induced the Israeli armed forces to assume that the civilians attacked were in fact taking a direct part in the hostilities…”


The assertion regarding “intentional strikes” is particularly mystifying. The Report does not take into account that Israeli soldiers were operating under fire, in an extremely volatile and dangerous environment, in which the enemy was hiding amongst a civilian population.


Nor does the Report generally take into account that testimony from Gazans was given under the watchful eye of Hamas officials. Moreover, the commission heard, at best, only one side of the story, since Israel, despairing of the biased mandate, chose not to participate. Whatever the wisdom of that Israeli decision – and, as indicated below, I do find it understandable – the Report at least should have acknowledged that Israeli non-participation limited the commission’s ability to reach firm conclusions.


Goldstone: “7. Paragraph 11: What I had explained to The Forward was that the Report itself would not constitute evidence admissible in court of law and that investigators would have to investigate which allegations they considered relevant. That, too, was why we recommended domestic investigations into the allegations. The remark as quoted is both inaccurate and taken completely out of context.”

Response: Here is the relevant quote, as well as the passages that directly precede and follow it, taken directly from the article in the Jewish Daily Forward:

“Goldstone defended the report’s reliance on eyewitness accounts, noting his mission had cross-checked those accounts against each other and sought corroboration from photos, satellite photos, contemporaneous reports, forensic evidence and the mission’s own inspections of the sites in question.

For all that gathered information, though, he said, “We had to do the best we could with the material we had. If this was a court of law, there would have been nothing proven.”

Goldstone emphasized that his conclusion that war crimes had been committed was always intended as conditional. He still hopes that independent investigations carried out by Israel and the Palestinians will use the allegations as, he said, “a useful road map.””

http://www.forward.com/articles/116269/

We consider the quote in the whereas to be fully in context.

Goldstone: “8. Paragraph 12: It is again factually incorrect to state that the Report denied Israel the right of self-defense. The Report examined how that right was implemented by the standards of international law. What is commonly called ius ad bellum, the right to use military force was not considered to fall within our mandate. Israel’s right to use military force was not questioned.”

Response: We use the phrase “in effect” in our clause because the Report does not explore why Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorist aggression perpetrated by a non-state actor. Justice Goldstone says that “the right to use military force was not considered to fall within our mandate.” Yet, he went beyond his mandate in several other areas of the Report, including discussion of Israel’s policies throughout the occupied territories (including the West Bank) and recommendations that were not called for by the UNHRC resolution that established the mandate. An acknowledgement of Israel’s right of self-defense would have provided vital context to the issues raised in the Report.


Goldstone: “9. Paragraph 13: This is the first suggestion that I have come across to the effect that we should have investigated the provenance of the rockets. It was simply not on the agenda, and in any event, we would not have had the facilities or capability of investigating these allegations. If the Government of Israel has requested us to investigate that issue I have no doubt that we have done our best to do so.”

Response: As noted, Justice Goldstone’s Report went beyond its mandate in several respects; looking at the roles of Iran and Syria in assisting Hamas certainly would have provided critical context to the Report. Iran and Syria enable Hamas’ terrorism. The assistance Hamas receives from outside actors allows the Hamas terrorist organization to attack Israel incessantly, certain in the knowledge that its arsenals will be replenished.


Hamas’ support by state actors makes it a formidable foe. The report should have considered that geopolitical context.


Goldstone: “10. Paragraph 14: This is a sweeping and unfair characterization of the Report. I hope that the Report will be read by those tasked with considering the resolution.”

Response: The Report uncritically attributes numerous statements to “Gaza Authorities” (meaning, Hamas), while often casting doubt on information derived from the international and Israeli press and from non-government-affiliated Israelis.


For example, the Report criticizes the fact that an Israeli Government web-post cites a Newsweek article reporting on Hamas depredations against its own population and casts doubt on the accuracy of the article. According to the Report, the citing of the Newsweek article, far from being an effort to invoke a neutral source, is merely evidence that Israel itself finds the Newsweek report unconvincing, since Israel does not adduce evidence from its own internal sources (p.143 paragraphs 612-614). This is an odd criticism, since intelligence information, no matter how compelling, is only rarely disclosed to the public.


Perhaps most tellingly, the Report appears only to cite Israeli statements when it finds such statements a useful basis for criticizing Israel. For example:


Section 41 – “The Mission examined the mortar shelling of al-Fakhura junction in Jabaliyah next to a UNRWA school, which, at the time, was sheltering more than 1,300 people (chap. X). The Israeli armed forces launched at least four mortar shells. One landed in the courtyard of a family home, killing 11 people assembled there. Three other shells landed on al-Fakhura Street, killing at least a further 24 people and injuring as many as 40. The Mission examined in detail statements by Israeli Government representatives alleging that the attack was launched in response to a mortar attack from an armed Palestinian group. While the Mission does not exclude that this may have been the case, it considers the credibility of Israel’s position damaged by the series of inconsistencies, contradictions and factual inaccuracies in the statements justifying the attack.”


Section 702 – “The Mission views as being unreliable the versions given by the Israeli authorities. The confusion as to what was hit, the erroneous allegations of who was specifically hit and where the armed groups were firing from, the indication that Israeli surveillance watched the scene but nonetheless could not detect where the strikes occurred, all combine to give the impression of either profound confusion or obfuscation.”


By contrast, the Report is far more forgiving when discussing contradictions in Palestinian evidence:


Section 1092 – “There are some minor inconsistencies, which are not, in the opinion of the Mission, sufficiently weighty to cast doubt on the general reliability of Majdi Abd Rabbo. There are also, not surprisingly, some elements of the long account which appear in some versions and not in others. The Mission finds that these inconsistencies do not undermine the credibility of Majdi Abd Rabbo’s account.”


Goldstone: “11. Paragraph 16: Again, this is an unfair and selective quotation taken out of context.”

Response: Our whereas clause reads as follows: “Whereas in one notable instance, the report stated that it did not consider the admission of a Hamas official that Hamas often ‘‘created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the mujahideen, against ’’ specifically to ‘‘constitute evidence that Hamas forced Palestinian civilians to shield military objectives against attack.’’


This quote was not taken out of context, and it can be found in Sections 477 and 478 of the Report, as follows:


“The Mission is also aware of the public statement by Mr. Fathi Hammad, a Hamas member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, on 29 February 2009, which is adduced as evidence of Hamas’ use of human shields. Mr. Hammad reportedly stated that:


…the Palestinian people has developed its of death seeking. For the Palestinian people, death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the mujahideen excel and the children excel. Accordingly, created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the mujahideen, against the Zionist bombing machine.


478. Although the Mission finds this statement morally repugnant, it does not consider it to constitute evidence that Hamas forced Palestinian civilians to shield military objectives against attack. The Government of Israel has not identified any such cases.


The Report also displays numerous examples of credulousness regarding Hamas behavior. For example:


p. 117: “While, in the light of the above reports, the Mission does not discount the use of booby traps by the Palestinian armed groups, it has no basis to conclude that civilian lives were put at risk, as none of the reports record the presence of civilians in or near the houses in which booby traps are alleged to have been set.”

p. 117: “Although the Mission was not able to investigate the allegation of the use of mosques generally by Palestinian groups for storing weapons, it did investigate the incident of a missile attack by the Israeli armed forces against al-Maqadmah mosque on the outskirts of Jabaliyah camp, in which at least 15 people were killed and 40 injured on 3 January 2009 (see chap. XI). The Mission found no evidence that this mosque was used for the storage of weapons or any military activity by Palestinian armed groups. As far as this mosque is concerned, therefore, the Mission found no basis for such an allegation. However, the Mission is unable to make a determination regarding the allegation in general nor with respect to any other mosque that was attacked by the Israeli armed forces during the military operations.”

p. 121: “On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission finds that there are indications that Palestinian armed groups launched rockets from urban areas. The mission has not been able to obtain any direct evidence that this was done with the specific intent of shielding the rocket launchers from counterstrokes by the Israeli armed forces.”

p. 121: “The Mission finds that the presence of Palestinian armed fighters in urban residential areas during the military operations is established. On the basis of the information it gathered, the Mission is unable to form an opinion on the exact nature or the intensity of their combat activities in urban residential areas that would have placed the civilian population and civilian objects at risk of attack. While reports reviewed by the Mission credibly indicate that members of Palestinian armed groups were not always dressed in a way that distinguished them from civilians, the Mission found no evidence that Palestinian combatants mingled with the civilian population with the intention of shielding themselves from attack.”


Goldstone: “12. Paragraph 17: That Hamas was able to shape the findings or that it pre-screened the witnesses is devoid of truth and I challenge anyone to produce evidence in support of it.”

Response: The evidence is within the Report itself. Page 111 of the Report reads as follows: “In its efforts to gather more direct information on the subject, during its investigations in Gaza and in interviews with victims and witnesses of incidents and other informed individuals, the Mission raised questions regarding the conduct of Palestinian armed groups during the hostilities in Gaza. The Mission notes that those interviewed in Gaza appeared reluctant to speak about the presence of or conduct of hostilities by the Palestinian armed groups. Whatever the reasons for their reluctance, the Mission does not discount that the interviewees’ reluctance may have stemmed from a fear of reprisals.”


Hamas is in full control of Gaza, and this “fear of reprisals” significantly helped Hamas shape the findings. See, for example, an Amnesty International publication that reports on how Hamas murdered its rivals while operation Cast Lead was ongoing: http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/hamas-waged-deadly-campaign-war-devastated-gaza-20090212.


Furthermore, the commission conducted some of its proceedings through holding televised open hearings in Gaza. Given its total control of Gaza and its ability to intimidate, Hamas almost certainly would have been able to control the access and message of each witness attending a televised open hearing. What is beyond doubt is that witnesses were keenly aware that Hamas was monitoring the televised proceedings and likely to inflict reprisals for any unwelcome testimony.


Goldstone: “Finally, I note that there is not a word to record that notwithstanding repeated pleas to the Government of Israel, it refused all cooperation with the Mission. Amongst others, I requested the views of Israel with regard to the implementation of the mandate and details of any issues that the Government of Israel might wish us to investigate.”

Response: Justice Goldstone is correct. The Government of Israel decided not to cooperate with the Mission, based on its biased mandate, as well as the UNHRC’s long history of anti-Israel bias. I find that position, at the least, understandable.

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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. What are the consequences of misleading the House in the US?

Response: The broadened mandate Justice Goldstone sought was discussed, but not voted on, at a UNHRC plenary session. It was then announced via a press release in an altered formulation, more restrictive than the formulation envisioned by Justice Goldstone. The UNHRC did not create a new mandate. The only relevant mandate remained the one which includes operational paragraph 14 of UNHRC resolution A/HRC/S-9/L.1, as was accepted by the Council on January 12, 2009. The January 12 mandate was also the only mandate referenced in the October 16 UNHRC resolution that adopted the Report.

The President of the UNHCR established the fact finding mission. The mandate that it gave to the mission was the mandate that is quoted by Justice Goldstone:-

“to investigate all violations of international human rights law and international humanitarian law that might have been committed at any time in the context of the military operations that were conducted in Gaza during the period from 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, whether before, during or after.”

This is the mandate that is quoted in the report itself. It is clearly the mandate that Goldstone himself considered that he was following.

It seems to me rather misleading to state that that mandate made by the President was "not relevant". The mandate established by the President was clearly "relevant" in the sense that Goldstone gave every indication of accepting it as the mission's operating mandate. One might dispute whether the mandate exceeded the bounds of the authority of the President, but that is something quite distinct from whether it is relevant or not.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. the mandate was never formally changed - Hamas was never singled out - their human shielding
Edited on Tue Nov-03-09 06:42 AM by shira
....was minimized and ignored (boobytraps, using hospitals and ambulances, child combatants, dressing as and mixing with civilians, firing rockets deliberately from dense populations).

The UNHRC completely got their way as Hamas crimes were swept under the table in favor of singling out Israel.

After the report, the UN voted precisely as they would have under the original mandate, as though it had never been changed, with Hamas taking no blame on and Israel the sole target.

This process was never meant to be balanced.

What's so difficult about this?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. You're not quite following me - or alternatively you're being quite misleading
Edited on Tue Nov-03-09 09:06 AM by shaayecanaan
Perhaps I can explain it this way:-

1) Lets presume that there is serious concern in the UK regarding corruption. The parliament passes a motion calling on the prime minister to establish a royal commission into police corruption, but not necessarily political corruption.

2) The Prime Minister advises the Crown to establish a royal commission into corruption, but he widens the terms of reference to include political corruption. The terms of reference that are given to the Commission include a request to investigate corruption whatever its source.

3) The Commission is established and begins its investigation based on the terms of reference that were issued in letters patent by the Crown prepared on the basis of advice by the prime minister. The motion passed by parliament is irrelevant in an operative sense.

There is no need to "formally change" the original motion in parliament because it was never officially a "mandate" for the commission. This is because parliament is a legislative body and therefore it cannot explicitly tell executive officers what to do and how to do it, although it can express no confidence in ministers if it becomes sufficiently annoyed with them. A Prime Minister can decide to hold a Commission without a motion from parliament, and likewise the UNHCR president can launch an investigation without a motion from the UN General Assembly.

Similarly, the "mandate" for a commission or inquiry in the UN are the terms of reference given to it by the executive officer that establishes it. In this case, the mandate was that which was given by the UNHRC president.

Again, the statement is misleading and you have once again shown your ignorance of the most basic principles of governance.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. the point is that no matter what Goldstone stated or wrote, no matter what the representative of...
Edited on Tue Nov-03-09 06:16 PM by shira
...the UN claimed about the mandate, the fact is the report was not balanced. It doesn't matter that Goldstone asked for more balance or was granted it. The report did not come back balanced at all and that's a fact.

We see little or no mention of serious Hamas violations (described in my last post) in the report. Instead, we see highly questionable and unverified accusations that the IDF purposely attacks innocent civilians. The 1-sided UN vote just one week ago confirmed what Israel knew would happen all along.

And that is, the attempt by Goldstone to make the fact-finding mission more balanced was nothing but smoke and mirrors. This was a 1-sided mandate from the get-go.

If Goldstone were interested in real balance, he would not have given short-shrift to all the serious war crimes Hamas committed during OCL (and of course that delighted the UNHRC which was never committed to holding Hamas accountable).

This was a sham from start to finish.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-03-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. The point is that you were wrong...
and the motion before the House was factually wrong as well.

The operative mandate for the mission was that which was given to it by the UNHRC president. Goldstone was right in that respect and you were wrong.

As far as balance, I have not counted mentions of Hamas misdeeds in the report. I would note, however, that total casualties on the Israeli side were 10 (not including friendly fire incidents). Total Palestinian deaths were 1100. It would be difficult to write as many paragraphs about the Israeli deaths as the Palestinian ones as obviously there were so many more of the latter.
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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. Goldstone was more than fair
shira says: "This process was never meant to be balanced. What's so difficult about this? "

oh, just that it's quite patently not true! but to be fair, projection is extremely difficult to self-diagnose.

i'm going with Justice Goldstone, i'm going with the _vast majority_ of intelligent and earnest human beings on Earth. Rarely has any issue engendered such a broad consensus of opinion--Israel is the problem. your bias is clear, your dissembling just doesnt persuade. it would be laughable if what you are defending wasnt so abominable.

but projection and other defensive measures are inevitable, as the incredible barbarity of Cast Lead was just a sliver of the suffering and death your project has rained upon the palestinians over the years. that is an incredibly ugly fact to own and live with to be sure. but owning it, repudiating the project and making full reparations is the only path to survival of course.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Then please start with posts #13, 24, 25 above if you're truly interested in fact over fiction
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 05:51 AM by shira
1. Then there's this (about the mosque and flour mill being targeted - which Goldstone brings up in nearly every interview now):
http://harris-adhoc.blogspot.com/2009/10/goldstone-report-forgery.html

2. And finally, Hamas used the Gazan population as a human shield, stole food sent in by Israel to the Palestinian population, deliberately fired from civilian populations, dressed as civilians, used child combatants, stored weapons in and boobytrapped homes, mosques, and schools, hid within the main Gaza hospital, comandeered ambulances, etc. In short, Hamas did everything they could to maximize their own civilians' casualties. These are serious war crimes that make it more likely civilians will be harmed by the IDF's defensive attempts to defend its own citizens from attack. Goldstone wasn't at all interested in investigating those crimes. Anyone with sincere concern for the rights of Palestinians should be enraged not only at Hamas for what they did, but at Goldstone and other HR organizations which willingly cover for Hamas and help Hamas to deligitimize Israel's lawful defense of its citizens lives.

Give at least 20-30 minutes to the sources I've provided.

Then come back here and try to argue Goldstone was fair.

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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. still going with Goldstone
your defenses of Israel are clearly passionate and consistent and you have always been articulate and reasonable in defending Israel. but i'm giving the nod to Goldstone on this one. efforts to paint Goldstone and entire fact finding mission as 'really' a secret attempt to torpedo Israel is not credible.

The life's work of Goldstone is not to be dismissed easily, his strongest motivation is to maintain his credibility as a jurist, if anything, he was probably too conservative in his criterion for what made it into the report.

Balance that against the statements of the accused, their motivation is to defend charges of crimes against humanity. Who's more likely to be biased and specious?

Considering that these serious charges are _consistent_ with many years of documented inhumanity against the Palestinian people, that the death toll was disproportionately higher on the Palestinian side, that the entire operation was disproportionate to the stated rationale, that the rationale itself was misrepresented in the beginning and that Israel stands in defiance of many judgements by UN, international laws and the IOC, not to mention the opinion of the vast majority of reasonable people in the world...the nod goes to Goldstone.


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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Why? Should blind faith in Goldstone trump empirical evidence and fact?
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 04:51 PM by shira
I thought only true believers and fundamentalists never let empirical evidence stand in the way of their deeply held convictions.

FWIW, when I read the report and go over critiques of it, I'm not thinking Goldstone. I could care less who wrote it. I consider the empirical evidence (or lack thereof) and the merits of the arguments from both sides. I can't imagine you'd allow an opponent who disagrees with you to use an appeal to authority in order to avoid honest debate of an issue.

You wrote:

"your bias is clear, your dissembling just doesnt persuade. it would be laughable if what you are defending wasnt so abominable.

That's a pretty strong condemnation. I invite you to back that up WRT Goldstone. I imagine you wrote that because you have good reason to believe I'm biased, dissembling, defending something abominable, etc. Care to back that up?

============

1. Did you at least start to read any of those links, and if so, what do you think about the arguments therein?
2. I wrote the following about Goldstone allowing for Hamas to get away with serious warcrimes...

"And finally, Hamas used the Gazan population as a human shield, stole food sent in by Israel to the Palestinian population, deliberately fired from civilian populations, dressed as civilians, used child combatants, stored weapons in and boobytrapped homes, mosques, and schools, hid within the main Gaza hospital, comandeered ambulances, etc. In short, Hamas did everything they could to maximize their own civilians' casualties. These are serious war crimes that make it more likely civilians will be harmed by the IDF's defensive attempts to defend its own citizens from attack. Goldstone wasn't at all interested in investigating those crimes. Anyone with sincere concern for the rights of Palestinians should be enraged not only at Hamas for what they did, but at Goldstone and other HR organizations which willingly cover for Hamas and help Hamas to deligitimize Israel's lawful defense of its citizens lives."

So are you okay with Goldstone ignoring all these serious Hamas warcrimes?
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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. goldstone did the work
The assertions from your websites do not constitute empirical fact, as such they do not trump the assertions contained in the Goldstone report. so we are indeed left with credibility as a valuable factor in evaluating the truth. Goldstone wins that contest easily for the reasons I've already mentioned. This conclusion is also consistent with many years of documented human rights abuses and defiance of international law. and further, whether Goldstone deliberately went easy on Hamas is incidental to the charges against Israel.

I believe you are biased and dissembling hard for the Israeli team, you may even be drawing a salary for your work. And that is fine with me. You may even be right to everyone's surprise, maybe there really was a secret conspiracy to trump up charges against Israel and let Hamas off the hook in this Goldstone report, but i doubt it. There's way too much evidence from so many sources from so many years of this occupation to quash the case for Israel's good intentions. Having not been there, I draw my conclusions the way everyone does, by weighing all the evidence, and yes, through my own lens of awareness.

You want to focus on whether the report was fair. This is only to change the subject from the difficult-to-own charges of white phosphorous, inordinate, unjustifiable collective punishment, targeting civilians, degradations, poisoning, starving, blocking medicines etc.

Here's where i say "so are you OK with ignoring these serious israeli war crimes?" and you say, "well then , i guess it's a draw." so i say, it's not about what you or i think.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. you really need to read the responses to Goldstone that I provided for you
The arguments go well beyond whether the report was fair - and you'd realize this if you read those responses.

As to being "OK with ignoring serious israeli war crimes", no I'm not okay with that and hope Israel does all it can to take the moral highground. I'm all for legitimate criticism of the IDF, but Goldstone's 500+ pages is nothing but demonization masquerading as a serious report. Once again, if you read those responses you would see that the serious Israeli war crimes cited are really nothing of the sort. So this is not a "draw". This goes well beyond being "fair" and it's quite appalling those for Goldstone like yourself are okay with Goldstone and HR groups covering for and encouraging Hamas to maximize Palestinian casualties. I wish people like yourself would just admit that your interest in all this (as well as Goldstone's interest) is not related to the cause of Palestinian HR's or peace.
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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. beyond fair
shira says: "Goldstone and HR groups covering for and encouraging Hamas to maximize Palestinian casualties."

i read all of your links Shira, i dont come to the same conclusion as you do. your quote above, coupled with the conclusion that Goldstone, myself and the rest of the world are _really_ just anti-semites rather than honest parties makes this yet another futile effort. and that is the goal here isnt it? to spin and obfuscate until the dilettantes get bored and move on to more entertaining pursuits.

Israel had no justification to even enter Gaza, they werent forced to "accidentally" annihilate all of those human beings. there was no legitimate self-defense in this at all. it was naked aggression. And it was consistent with the ongoing project to subdue or neutralize the Palestinians who remain and continue to resist their land appropriation. this wont stop until Israel succeeds in driving them out once and for all, or Israel collapses under its own weight.

i am 100% motivated by the human rights and Justice issues of this conflict.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. you didn't read those responses to Goldstone - no sense continuing until you do.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Israel is the problem.....
just for the record as an israeli and a jew...and only a few generations from the holocaust and the russian pogroms ....where the Jews were the problem.

such statements not only don't they mean anything, but reassure us that we are infact right in not trusting the world.

Your "vast majority" as per the UN includes such shinning examples of freedom as found in saudi arabia, egypt, russia, iran, Pakistan, etc....

and of course the "incredible barbarity" is but a shadow to the barbarity shown by the US forces and it allies in wars past and present, which makes it less than "incredible"....
_____
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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. setting the standards for barbarity
this is such a classic rebuttal there should be an official name for it in the DSM, at minimum it is known as 'rationalization':

1. "because you conclude that Israel is the antagonist in the conflict, you are _de facto_ biased and untrustworthy." (Israel can do no wrong by definition)

2. "Since the vast majority of humans_may_ include persons living under deeply flawed governments of their own, the Judgement of this majority is therefore null and void." (wow, tortured is the name of that logic. it breaks down to this; "since no-one is perfect, no laws or standards of human decency are legitimate)

3. "Israeli barbarity is less barbaric than <some other examples of barbarity>, hence it is not barbarity" (if one were to defend a charge of rape by saying; "lots of people rape other people, heck, some of them even kill the victim and dismember their bodies, this rape is nothing in comparison, so get over it already", (and you can throw in "she was really asking for it)" how far would that go in a court of law? should we even have courts of law at that point? iow, any brutality or criminality committed by Israel has been matched or bested by other persons or govts. throughout history, so it is no big deal (and of course, the ever handy zinger "the only reason you're even bringing it up is because i'm Jewish"))

lesson: two wrongs do not make a right. because the cop pulled you over out of a pack of speeding cars does not make your speeding ticket invalid in the eyes of the vast majority of reasonable people. _even_ if he pulled you over because you were Jewish. if this cop was biased toward you, it may be a separate issue worth examining, but it means exactly zero in defense of your crime.

please insert "inhumanity" for "speeding" in the above analogy. the utterance of this rationalization is evidence of a sociopathy
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. news flash....israel is not a populated by superior beings....
Edited on Thu Nov-05-09 05:21 PM by pelsar
nor does it have to live up to some standard that has been designed just for israel....

now we shall dissect your post an expose the falsehoods. I shall keep it simple so its easy to understand.

flash conclusion:
Israel can do no wrong by definition....you just made that up, its not anywhere in my post.

the hypocrisy of supporting the values of dictatorships and autocratic regimes
the 'vast majority"- as per your claim, has countries whos value system includes hanging homosexuals, actually wiping out their own cities using poison gas, amputating limbs as punishment, torture as a standard, sending children in to mine fields,......and you claim they have right to judge israeli standards?

interesting set of values you support


you forgot the hyperbole, because it shows your exaggeration....
Israeli barbarity is less barbaric than

you used the word Incredible in defining israeli barbarity...meaning it is beyond the norms of war.....thats simply not true. The US has show it to be far more barbaric.....so what word would you use to describe the US's barbarity if israel is "incredibly barberic?
(bet you dont answer that one......)


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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-05-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. repeating your fallacies doesnt make them valid
(news flash)
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. and avoiding even the simplest question...is far more telling
i even gave you a simple question to answer on the bottom .... and to make it even clear i noted that you probably wouldnt answer it .......because it exposes your use of hyperbole and exaggeration within your posts.

you avoided it - tsk tsk tsk........
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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. pay closer attention
to the logical flaws originally described and you'll see why i didnt bother to bite at your shiny object. you'll also note that your 'very important question' is irrelevant. or to spell it out for you, US barbarity is incredible indeed, but really beside the point. but of course you dont want to see the point, you want to change the subject. you are flat out dishonest or unable to parse the words efficiently (or both). good day
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. quite the contrary the US barbarity is relevant...
Edited on Fri Nov-06-09 02:48 PM by pelsar
as is the syrian barbarity, as is the Egyptian, British etc.......

since you claim the the whole world is upset with israeli barbarity and then when we look closer we discover that the 'rest of the world is in fact far more barbaric than israel is

syria for example destroying their own city of 40,000 using poison gas. The US destroying several countries, and using the A bomb. Iran using kids to clear mines....

its called the standard of the world......and it seem they are far far more barbaric than israel is.....so your "world opinion is nothing more they mere hypocrisy.

israeli is in fact far below "setting the standards for barbarity"
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bstender Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-06-09 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. IOW, "they're all focusing on our barbarity bc they're anti-semites"
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-07-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. making up stuff?....
Edited on Sat Nov-07-09 02:12 AM by pelsar
i cant recall writing about anti semitism here....so why are you?.....

i was just pointing out the hypocrisy of your posts....perhaps instead of making up stuff, you could answer directly how syria would be considered less barbaric than israel....or the US.

or are you trying to avoid those simple and straight forward questions that question what you wrote previous?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-10 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #32
54. Here's proof the mandate never changed
http://www.unwatch.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=bdKKISNqEmG&b=1285603&ct=8383457¬oc=1

All of this culminated in Judge Goldstone’s various and alternating arguments as to how he changed the original, one-sided mandate of S-9/1, and the guilty verdict that was issued from the start:

We were told he changed it with the former president;
Or by obtaining assent of the resolution's sponsors;
Or by the silence of this council after the president addressed the council in June.
Legally, of course, none of these arguments has any basis whatsoever.

In truth, one need merely look at the final version ratified by the UN General Aseembly on 18 December 2009: there we see the original mandate, the original guilty verdict—unchanged, unamended. (See UNHRC report, Art. 14, at p. 165.)


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