Rocket fired from Gaza lands next to Ashkelon school

[oberliner]

A rocket fired from the Gaza Strip on Saturday crashed next to a school in Ashkelon, while another struck an open field in the southern city.

An Israel Defense Forces spokesman said the school was closed, averting injuries.

Several people were treated for shock by paramedics who arrived at the scene.

On Friday night, a Qassam rocket fired from Gaza hit the Sdot Negv regional council. No casualties or damage were reported in the incident.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067516.html

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Firecracker! Firecracker! Sis-boom-ba!

No Jews killed! Misfire! Misfire! Propaganda--Hazzah!

[LeftishBrit]

2. Scary. Glad no one was injured.

[Duckhunter935]

3. thought there was a cease fire?

[oberliner]

4. Since the end of Israel's Gaza offensive, Palestinian fighters have fired more than 100 rockets

I think the parties are still working on an actual semi-official cease fire with the Egyptians.

[Idealism]

5. How many bombs has the IAF dropped since the cease-fire? n/t

[henank]

6. None on civilians.

The Palestinian terrorists on the other hand aim at civilians and time the rockets for when children are going to or returning from school, or on Saturdays when prayers start in the synagogues.

[Idealism]

7. Wrong.

Civilians have died during the cease-fire on the Palestinians side, none on the Israeli side.

The "terrorists" cannot aim Qassams, as they have no guidance system. You can argue intent, but that you won't ever be able to prove that indiscriminate rocket fire can be aimed.

[henank]

8. Ashkelon is not a military camp

Sderot is not an army outpost. Kibbutzim are not military encampments. By shooting kassams and Grads at these towns (no guidance needed, just point in the general direction) they are absolutely aiming at civilians.

[Idealism]

9. And yet their are military personnel stationed there

You will not be able to prove that in a recognized court, I am afraid, although the distinction wouldn't be necessary.

Compulsory military service also weakens your argument a tad.

You cannot prove indiscriminate rocket fire was aimed at civilians. You can prove a laser-guided bomb is aimed at civilians, however, for obvious reason.

[henank]

10. Excuse me, my daughter almost got killed today

She was staying in a hotel. In Ashkelon. Next to a school. The Grad (not a kassam, an upgraded Grad, i.e. a katyusha) exploded in a school, next to a hotel, near the beach in Ashkelon. She had 30 seconds to get to shelter with her 4 tiny children. Which she couldn't manage, obviously. She flung the kids against the far wall, and herself on top of them, and then the missile exploded. Thankfully they were not hurt.

Your argument is a load of croc. It's pure BS. It excuses indiscriminate rocket and missile fire against Israeli civilians.

And yet their are military personnel stationed there
Ashkelon is a civilian town, not a military camp. Oh yes, sure, there are soldiers everywhere in Israel. So in your eyes the whole of Israel is a target. Oh yes, I see where you are going with that argument.

In your eyes I am also a target because I live in a town near Tel Aviv, and there are - gasp!!! - soldiers in my town!

Compulsory military service also weakens your argument a tad.
Same BS as above.

You cannot prove indiscriminate rocket fire was aimed at civilians.
If it is not aimed at a distinct army camp then, yes, it is indeed aimed at civilians.

[Idealism]

11. My apologies for whatever harm you have endured

Whether psychological or physical, the pain is hard to bear. I was once like you, wishing to strike out at those who hurt me and my family. I lost loved ones in the World Trade Towers, and I wanted blood afterward. I did not see things that my country was doing that provoked the violence. There are no innocent parties here, except the civilians who die on both sides of this tragedy. I was irrational following 9/11, I know looking back now and I have since realized the error of my ways and have changed my worldview accordingly.

From a law standpoint, there is no way you can prove in court whether Katyushas, or Qassam-1,2,3's can be aimed at civilians over a distance of at least a dozen kilometers. It is not needed, however, to prove that Hamas is guilty of war crimes. It does not change the fact that Israel knows to the meter where a bomb will hit, whereas Hamas/Islamic Jihad/Al-Aqsa have no clue. And since there is substantial militarization of Israeli society, meaning to say you have no towns without some form of military presence, that it is impossible from that standpoint to say that "Hamas targeted civilians because they launched rockets in the general direction of Beersheba."

My argument in no way dismisses indiscriminate rocket fire against civilians, and as I have previously stated dozens of times, Hamas is guilty of war crimes and should be tried. Israel is not blameless in this either, and several top military and government officials should be tried for crimes against humanity. In a just world, I suppose...

You really don't want to go down this path:

If it is not aimed at a distinct army camp then, yes, it is indeed aimed at civilians.

Considering that Gaza has zero "army" camps, no recognized standing military, and is one of the most crowded tracts of land in the world, I would say that by your standards Israel has been unequivocally targeting Palestinians civilians. Or does your judgment on international human rights only go one way?

[Taitertots]

12. So when Hamas

fires rockets they have limited ability to control into civilian centers they are not targeting civilians.
When Israel uses precision munitions to pin point Hamas terrorists they are targeting civilians.

Israel has a military centric society so firing rockets at cities is attacking military targets.
Palestine has no standing military so any thing Israel does is targeting civilians.

[Idealism]

14. I understand the law can be hard to discern

and intent is a difficult concept, but at least try to read what was said instead of skimming through.

You cannot prove a rocket was fired solely at civilians if there is no guidance mechanism. You can prove a laser-guided bomb is aimed because it is guided by satellite to its target.

If Israel has "pin pointed Hamas terrorists" as well as you think they have, why do 1200+ lay dead? Why are 400 of those women and children? Do you think all 800 men who died were "terrorists" as well, or just collaborators who deserved to die?

[Taitertots]

15. Come on...

Hamas is firing rockets that can be guided to a point. They are aimed directly at civilian centers. Yet you believe they had an intention other than killing civilians.

Israel uses guided munitions. They are aimed directly at Hamas targets and regrettably some civilians died. Yet you believe their intentions were to kill civilians.


So it would be alright for Israel to carpet bomb Gaza because they couldn't prove those unguided bombs were aimed a civilians?

[Idealism]

16. Where have I said these things?

Yet you believe they had an intention other than killing civilians.

Yet you believe their intentions were to kill civilians.

I was pointing out to that poster that if they felt that Hamas was "targeting civilians" because they launched rockets at a city, then the Israeli military is also targeting civilians. By that posters own definition that is the case. Looks like you project what you want to read.

Again, I understand law can be hard to fathom for those not used to the burden of proof, but you simply cannot prove who Hamas was "aiming" at, by firing a rocket without any guidance system in the general direction of a city 20-40kms away. You would have an easier time proving that guided munitions were targeting civilians, and given how many houses and mosques (two very popular places for civilians) were completely destroyed, you would have an easier time stating in international court that to be the case as opposed to Hamas firing on civilians.

That being said, I don't think neither Hamas or the IDF cares as to whom it kills. The mission is to inflict pain.

[Taitertots]

17. Are they in American courts

I didn't think so. So are you claiming Hamas is not aiming at civilians or that courts couldn't prove they were aiming them at civilians? So do you believe that Hamas is targeting civilians by firing rockets at civilian centers?

Hamas is targeting civilians by launching rockets at civilian centers, and Israel is not targeting civilians by using guided munitions at specific military targets. So unguided rockets at cities is targeting civilians, precision guided munitions at military targets is not targeting civilians.


I guess Israel should just carpet bomb them, that way they won't be targeting civilians.

[Idealism]

18. You are hopeless. Reading is not hard, apparently comprehension is

[Taitertots]

19. I read it, comprehended it, and disagree.

You said that it can't be "proved" if Hamas rockets are aimed at civilians. I disagree. I said it doesn't matter if courts can "prove" the intentions, it is obvious they are civilian not military targets. Would Israel be targeting civilians if it carpet bombed Gaza, it couldn't be "proved" their intention was to kill civilians if they are not aiming.


Then you said if Hamas is targeting civilians by firing unguided rockets at civilian centers than Israel is targeting civilians by firing guided rockets at civilians centers. I disagree. The very act of selecting military targets and using guidance means they are not targeting civilians despite firing into civilian centers.


If I fire a machine gun into a crowd, I'm targeting civilians. If I fire a rifle at one person in the crowd, I'm not aiming at civilians.

[Idealism]

20. Flawed analogy

Lets take it back for a second. What in your mind is Hamas guilty of?

[Taitertots]

21. Address the issue at hand

Before backing up or moving on.

"You said that it can't be "proved" if Hamas rockets are aimed at civilians. I disagree. I said it doesn't matter if courts can "prove" the intentions, it is obvious they are civilian not military targets. Would Israel be targeting civilians if it carpet bombed Gaza, it couldn't be "proved" their intention was to kill civilians if they are not aiming.


Then you said if Hamas is targeting civilians by firing unguided rockets at civilian centers than Israel is targeting civilians by firing guided rockets at civilians centers. I disagree. The very act of selecting military targets and using guidance means they are not targeting civilians despite firing into civilian centers."

[Idealism]

22. I am trying to understand why you can't read correctly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=262897&mesg_id=262962

If it is not aimed at a distinct army camp then, yes, it is indeed aimed at civilians.

This is what the poster who I was replying to said on the matter. I pointed out that they thought Hamas was firing on civilians. If the poster could prove that Hamas was firing on civilians, then Israel also could prove to be firing on civilians too- by using their own definition.

It is that posters definition, not mine.

Now, what I meant by backing up: What do you think Hamas is guilty of, meaning what would they be charged with? You do realize that just because you say they are bad doesn't mean jack shit, you have to prove it in a court of law, right? And not just some "American court" as you so laughably stated. International court, if Hamas were to be tried at all.

How do you know I am "aiming" for civilians if I fire a Qassam rocket north? Is Tel Aviv the only thing that lies north of Gaza? No. You can't prove that by launching a missile without any tracking or guidance system in the general direction of a city dozens of kilometers away, that I am "aiming for civilians". You can most likely prove that the intent is malicious, but you cannot prove to whom I meant harm to.You.Just.Can't.Do.It.

If I drop a GBU-39 from an F-16, it is guided by satellite to its target. If that target is a house or mosque (which it all-too-often was) how do I know that I am only targeting the one or two "suspected" terrorists inside the structure? I don't. Am I "aiming" at civilians? Hard to say. What evidence do I have that these people are "terrorists" in the first place? Who am I to pass judgment on who is and who isn't a terrorist? These people have not been tried in a court of law- it is my word verse someone elses.

Do you understand what I meant by "burden of proof?" It is very hard to prove anything related to war crimes, which is partly why there have been so few convictions of violators of international law.

[Taitertots]

23. What is so hard to understand about me disagreeing with you

I disagree that firing rockets at cities isn't targeting civilians.
I disagree that if Hamas is targeting civilians then Israel is targeting civilians.

If you point rockets at civilian centers than yes you are targeting civilians.
If you drop a precision guided bomb on what you honestly believe to be a military target you are not targeting civilians, no matter how many die.


So do you believe that firing rockets at cities is targeting civilians? Not "burden of proof", do you believe they are not trying to hit civilians?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Idealism]

29. Get over yourself, Israel isn't the innocent victim.

I was pointing out in a court of law that you won't be able to prove these things. I have stated this at least 5 times in this thread. Keep projecting, or perhaps it is selective ignorance?

[shira]

34. of course not.....thus, no compassion from you....dead Jews aren't innocent

and therefore Israel should just take it and let its citizens die. Juice people aren't allowed to defend themselves.

Yep, got the memo loud and clear.

You don't give a rat's ass for dead Juice people. And if it weren't for your hate for all that is Western or Israeli, you wouldn't give 2 craps about Palestinians either.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Idealism]

47. Fake quotes? You have stated these things dozens of times

And just for the benefit, shira, I would like you to state that Israel (by Israel, I mean the government- not the citizens, something you don't understand) is as guilty as Hamas is when it comes to committing violations of international laws. Just once, because I have yet to hear you EVER condemn these things from the Israeli government.

If I am the one who is minimizing actions, why is it that I call for Israel and Hamas to be tried in international courts? Why do I abhor every death, regardless of what nationality they are from? Why do I constantly have to remind your side that there are human beings across The Wall?

[shira]

51. no sir, you answer me first

Again, why can't you ever admit that MANY accusations against Israel are overblown, outrageous lies? You cannot even admit that the IDF tried avoiding many civilian casualties (250 thousand phone calls, aborted missile attempts, aborted missions, etc..). Why is that? Why is this so hard to admit? Please answer.

And you do minimize Hamas actions. "Only" 20-30 Israelis killed in 8 years - small price to pay, right? The continuous threat upon hundreds of thousands due to rockets is also minimized - ask Henank about his daughter and grandchildren. Need I even mention virtually ignoring Hamas' victimization of the entire Gazan population via sharia, subjugation of women, gays, christians, and inciting children to genocide and hatred?

[Idealism]

52. This is not even comparable, shira

How many homes were destroyed? 40,000? 50,000? Who even knows at this point, yet you want to talk to me about the morality of the air force? There aren't even 50,000 terrorists inside Gaza and you want to tell me the IAF was being compassionate? What about the UN compounds that were hit? The ones that the IDF was given the exact GPS coordinates of multiple times, warnings on a daily basis, and still managed to get bombarded? What about the aid workers who were fired on by the IDF- one even killed during the typical mid-day lull?

You cannot tell me that these things were the work of "bad apples" when it is a recurring theme.

Sharia law is not a war crime. Hamas is guilty of plenty of those already without your disdain for Islam being brought into this. You have no idea about Islamic society and you never will.

I still see no mention of Israeli war crimes or even general culpability. I see that they were supposedly merciful because they left messages on peoples phones, then bombed their houses and where they worshiped. Its ok, you told me in the past, all 60 mosques were hiding weapons! What happened to that excuse?

[shira]

76. again you ignored my questions. why?

[Idealism]

81. Why do you still deny the Israeli government to be guilty of crimes?

I freely admit that Hamas is guilty of crimes, why can't you do the same?

Why is it that when the Israeli government terrorizes civilians you justify it, but when Hamas does it you are the first to condemn them?

[shira]

82. the Israeli govt is guilty, like any other govt, of crimes

They're certainly not perfect - the occupation and settlements are very corrupt by their nature - but neither does Israel deserve to be the subject of demonization - like Islamophobics do all the time with Arab or Muslim societies, don't you agree? So can you now admit that there's a big problem with all the false and exaggerated reporting on Israel?

[Idealism]

85. What reporting did you have a problem with?

The casualty numbers that the UN supplied of around 1300 killed, 400 women and children? That still classifies the other 900 as terrorists simply because they are male, by the way. Do you think these numbers are too high? Months after the fighting ended, everyone including the IDF, agree to the total dead. Do you discredit the number of wounded? The 5,500 number to me seems about right when you talk about urban warfare and the sheer number of bombs the IAF dropped and shells the IDF fired.

What in particular do you find fault with and what proof of these inaccuracies do you offer?

Edit: Thanks for finally saying that the Israeli government has dishonored themselves. Demonizing Israel is equatable with anti-Semitism, whereas criticism of the Israeli government and their policies is definitely NOT.

[Taitertots]

83. Are they in a court of law?

No. So what relevance does that have to anything.

So regardless of whatever "burden of proof" you try to justify Hamas terrorism with, the truth is that firing rockets at cities is targeting civilians. Whatever legal wrangling you try to apply to it the truth still stands that Israel by means of using guided munitions at selected targets is not targeting civilians.


Israel is not the innocent victim. They are not victims because they would not allow themselves to be victims. Might doesn't make right, but it also doesn't make wrong. I'm not going to fault Israel for defeating those that stand against it, for killing more people that Hamas kills. I'm going to stand behind them because while Hamas uses its total capacity to target civilians, Israel holds back a great deal to protect civilians. Israel is not an innocent victim but Israel's actions are justified.

[Idealism]

84. You are entitled to your opinions

No matter how wrong they are, I will defend your right to say them. Good day

[Taitertots]

86. Good to know you have nothing of substance to add

Good Day

[Idealism]

87. Explaining international law to someone called "taitertots" is harder than I thought, sorry.

[Taitertots]

90. Explaining reality to someone called Idealism is harder than

I thought too.

You can't legitimize terrorism by saying it can't be proven in an international court. They are still quite obviously targeting civilians, if international courts won't recognize that, it is just more justification of Israeli acts.

Even if Hamas terrorism could be proven in international court that still wouldn't mean Israel is targeting civilians or using unjustified means.

[Idealism]

91. You assume that is my aim

I am not legitimizing terror. You are the one who justifies the terror that Israel has unleashed on the Palestinian public. That is state-sponsored terror, but because it is fought with tanks and F-16s instead of suicide bombers- it is labeled a "war."

War is the terrorism of the rich, terrorism is war of the poor. Interesting how you think one is "glorious" in your words, while the other highly offends you. Hypocritical at best, ignorant at worst.

[shira]

93. are all wars terrorism?

are you just anti-war in general, believing every war - not just Israel's - to be terrorism? Can you point to one clean or justified war in the last century, or is it all terrorism?

[Idealism]

96. As I have explained to you before, I am vehemently against war

I believe most of the wars that have been fought could have and should have been avoided. I think President Obama's decision to further entangle us in Afghanistan is unwise and I wish he would rethink his position.

There is no such thing as a "clean" war, but I think our entering into World War II was justified, as Hitler would have taken over the world eventually if not stopped. I think the American revolution was justified to a degree, but we could have achieved independence in other ways (Canada, for example, never fought a war of independence yet they are a wonderfully flourishing independent state now, and no one had to die for it). Vietnam was a fiasco, I still cringe when I think of the horrors of Iraq... not to mention the CIA-backed coups of the 1950-1980s, the "dirty wars" that were anything but...

[shira]

106. since you believe America's involvement in WW2 was justified,

do you believe that America could have defeated Hitler if German women and children were constantly paraded in front of cameras as victims of collective punishment? Or if NGO's of that time, and let's say the UN also, had publicly criticized America as they do Israel now - challenging almost every military act taken by the USA? Imagine the German people claiming victimhood and Versailes as reasons for going to war against their Allied oppressors and NGO's and the UN going along with it against America. Could Hitler have been defeated as soon as he was?

[Idealism]

113. Considering there was no UN before WW2, and hardly a worldwide media presence

It is impossible to compare the two times, sorry.

As it was, there were plenty of Americans who were isolationists, Congressmen included, who wanted nothing to do with WWII. For that reason, you have some skeptics who think FDR allowed Pearl Harbor to be bombed, just to get us into war.

[shira]

116. so suppose there was a Hitler now

same conditions as my last post. How could America hope to defeat such a regime if all its military actions were reported as warcrimes against civilians, images projected constantly worldwide, NGO and UN condemnation, the whole megilla? As justified as we might think America is to go into such a war, it would be unwinnable, wouldn't it?

[Idealism]

118. If Prime Minister Merkel invaded Poland, then you would see

a worldwide effort to restrain Germany, so no, it would not happen. A war of aggression is explicitly against the Geneva Accords.

It is very difficult to find parallels to the I/P conflict, most analogies are horrendously biased and simplistic. The rocket analogy of "If Mexico was firing rockets into Texas" was so debased from reality that is became a caricature of the I/P situation. It was useful for people who would like to see only what is happening to one society, without seeing the effect on their counterparts. It is like seeing the cause of something but not the effect.

[Taitertots]

103. I do believe Israel is justified

Terrorism-firing rockets at civilians.(Hamas) Terrorism is wrong and unjustifiable.
War-Bombing specific military targets with care to limit civilians casualties.(Israel) War is unpleasant but can be justified.

So yes defeating any enemy when force is justified is glorious. Trying to murder civilians when no force is justified is highly offensive.

Comparing Hamas terrorism to Israeli restrained warfare is what I find hypocritical at best and ignorant at worst.

[Idealism]

115. You won't be able to prove either of the claims in court

and thus, is meaningless. I am glad you like to exercise your opinion freely, do keep it up!

There are plenty of things I would like to see proven in court (US war crimes for example) but I doubt will be. Keep hoping though!

[Taitertots]

120. It will never go to court

so whether a court can prove it is meaningless.

It is clear to everyone they Hamas fires at civilians. This has plenty more meaning to everyone than a hypothetical court case about it. So keep trying to justify terrorism because the obvious intent can't be "proved" in a hypothetical court case. Keep trying to equivocate terrorism with legitimate military operations.

[Idealism]

121. You miss the point again

To argue in court means to be defending and prosecuting people. Meaning someone (Hamas in this case) would be on trial, which is what I would love to see. They need to stand trial, same as the Israeli government. You can't prove indiscriminate rocket fire is aimed at civilians or military personnel, BUT it is not needed to convict Hamas. They are guilty of plenty of things.

[azurnoir]

125. So you believe that firing WP shells in a

densely populated civilian area was justified, thanks

[eyl]

25. That's incorrect

A military action with the risk or certainty of harming civilians must bring a sufficient level of The laws of war require an action bring a proportional military benefit in order to be justified. Firing weapons which can only be generally aimed at a civilian area when, consequently you have a high probability of harming civilians and a very low probability of hitting military targets - and such military targets as are present in those towns are largely low-value anyway - cannot be justified even if you're arguing you're aiming at those military targets.* OTOH, precision munitions can be aimed at a specific point and therefore theire use has a higher probability of accomplishing the military goal you wish to achieve, making their use more justifiable, at least potentially.

*I should also point out that after Cast Lead Hamas enumerated which rockets had been launched at military targets (and at which specific targets) - the total was far less then the total number of rockets launched.

[Idealism]

32. Your post was at best the opening statement in a case

You still have to go about proving that the Israeli deemed-appropriate LOW does not violate the Geneva Accords or international human rights, the intent behind indiscriminate rocket fire, and that their wasn't either war crimes or gross negligence committed by the IAF for dropping GPS-guided GBU's on thousands of homes, dozens of mosques, and even a few UN compounds where the number of civilians were extraordinarily high for what is considered the most accurate bomb in the world. It would be a lengthy case, to say the least, and not one that would probably make its way to the ICC.

[shira]

37. there exists plenty of evidence showing the IAF and IDF

took great precautions to avoid killing Palestinian civilians, both on video and the quarter million phonecalls placed to Gazan households. Do you realize that 250,000 phone calls is nearly the entire Gazan civilization? This is unprecedented in wartime. No other country has ever undermined its own war efforts to warn even the enemy (terrorists were also called) from being killed.

http://www.mefeedia.com/entry/idf-vlog-strikes-aborted-to-protect-civilians-lt-barak-raz-11-jan-2009/13678771

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUeSE3WWX_M

These preventive measures must be taken into consideration before blindly claiming that Israel, like Hamas, intentionally targeted civilians. There's a vast difference between the IDF and Hamas.

Seriously, if you don't believe this, remember that the IDF and IAF consists not just of lifetime soldiers but also hundreds and thousands of full time journalists, doctors, and lawyers who would in NO WAY allow such "propaganda" exonnerating the IDF/IAF into the mainstream.

[Idealism]

41. That sure is a lot of phone calls! So where did those 250,000 people go who left Gaza?

You know, the 250,000 people who "got the call." Where did they go to?

OH WAIT, they couldn't leave because the IDF sealed Gaza shut before Hamas even came to power! Oh well, I suppose thats not the IAF's fault if the IDF keeps the border shut! After all, the IAF only drops the bombs!

If there weren't tens of thousands of houses left in ruin in Gaza, along with dozens and dozens of mosques, damage to hospitals, and UN compounds, then maybe I could agree that the Israeli military tried their best. But instead, whole towns are wiped off the face of the earth, and needless to say- those who are still living would disagree with your assertion.


Again, this is something that would be argued in court. This particular item would be a footnote, at best.

[shira]

45. so 250,000 phone calls means nothing

Gazans went where the bombing wasnt. Just like people in Sderot, gee where do they go when the sirens go off?

[Idealism]

46. The wonderful people of Sderot have bomb shelters about every 10 yards

The Gazans do not have that luxury.

The phone calls are a symbolic gesture when the ones who call you to "get to safety" keep you trapped in a cage that they are bombing. Where was this safe haven that Israel wasn't bombing? Was it marked? Was it fleeting?

If I call your house and say I am going to bomb it and your entire town around you, yet I don't let you leave your enclosure, does that make me courteous? I would say, if anything, that makes me a jackass.

[shira]

53. Gazans had nowhere to go?

Gaza is not so small and densely populated that there's absolutely nowhere to go. How utterly idiotic. Israel didn't bomb everything in sight either. In fact, the phone calls and leaflets sometimes backfired on the IDF:

http://intelligencenews.wordpress.com/2009/01/02/04-15/

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/warnings.html

[Idealism]

54. LOL the few times that they "backfired" was that the people didn't die

and their houses didn't get bombed? That is pathetic shira. You couldn't find anything better on CAMERA or little green footballs?

Sad, sad.

[shira]

55. you REALLY don't get it, do you?

If the IDF was so merciless and cruel, there's simply no reason that Palestinians would rush to rooftops to prevent IAF attacks, which proves that Palestinians themselves know to trust the IAF not to murder civilians in cold blood.

[Idealism]

56. Ok shira so if destroyed 45,000 homes is them being compassionate

what is them being indifferent to Palestinians? Now once you figure that out, what is the IDF being merciless? The same number.

[shira]

77. you ignored the main point of post #55. why?

[Idealism]

79. It is an asinine question

The IAF and IDF could scarcely do more damage to Gaza that they did and try to claim that it was an "acceptable level of civilian casualties" and collateral damage. By their bombings of all government infrastructure and the on-going denial of humanitarian aid to the 750,000 people who depend on that assistance to live, you will see a spike in starvation throughout Gaza resulting in scores of completely senseless deaths. These deaths won't be directly attributed to Israel, but the people dying from lack of food- food that Israel refuses to allow into Gaza for arbitrary reasons- will realize who is starving them.

[Taitertots]

88. Who is Starving them

The government that tries harder to smuggle rockets and explosives than food. Or the country whose civilians are bombarded by those rockets, and closes the border to protect its civilians.

I guess protecting Israelis from the government sponsored terrorism of Hamas is just an arbitrary reason.

[Idealism]

89. According to an Israeli journalist and professor, you are wrong.

Over 90% of what the tunnels are used for is importing food and oil, a vast majority just for necessities. This doesn't include medical supplies, cars, animals, etc. that also must be smuggled in.

Denying food to starving people in your skewed world is "protecting Israeli's from terrorism?" How? So that Palestinians die?!

[shira]

92. when the USA gets the EU and rest of the UN to help place harsh

sanctions on Iran, and this is inevitable due to Iran's nuclear ambitions, will the entire world be guilty of the same type (or worse) collective punishment on the innocent of Iran? If so, what kind of humanitarian sanctions should be placed on Iran - and let's agree for the sake of argument that sanctions are necessary.

Thanks.

[Idealism]

94. I see Iran different than you

There is wayyy too much hyping of Iran as wanting a nuclear winter. The press has done a wonderful job ginning up fear about this. Iran is not yet close to being able to produce a nuclear bomb, first and foremost. They have presidential elections in June, and with hope Khatami can win and set the government down a more liberal path. Either way, I don't see them as much of a threat to Israel because it is not in their best interests.

Iran has had sanctions on them since Iran/Contra by the US and Canada. The EU has recently slammed them with more sanctions that is adversely affecting the people of Iran, but not to the point of starvation like the Gazans are being deprived. Inflation and unemployment is rampant in Iran, but they are still a moderately wealthy country. Plus, sanctions have began to be circumvented especially through channeling products and business through areas like Dubai that welcome any money coming their way. These sanctions simply do not work. Bush tried to ignore Iran for 8 years. The past 3 years he was in office, not a single US diplomat set foot in Tehran. Because of this, Iran started to develop their nuclear program in early 2003, but since then has dismantled it according to the past couple years of National Intelligence Estimates.

Iran's biggest problem honestly is drugs. It is estimated around 15% of the 70 million people living in Iran are drug addicts. That is not the mark of a starved nation. Gaza and Iran are not comparable when you talk about collective punishment.

[shira]

99. how about Iraq and N.Korea then?

you realize what international sanctions have done to the people in those regimes the past 10-20 years?

[Idealism]

100. How about them in what regard?

[shira]

102. collective punishment and starvation.

[Taitertots]

95. The 10% that are weapons of war

Denying Hamas the weapons it uses to wage war against Israel is "Protecting Israel from terrorism".

The whole reason they need to be smuggled in is the continued aggression against Israel. Israel has a duty to protect its civilians from terrorism, that means they need to shut down the border to stop weapons of war flowing into Palestine. Hamas has a duty to protect its civilians from hunger, that means they should stop aggression against Israel and stop firing rockets. Then there could be a justification for Israel loosening its embargo.


You expect Israel to open the borders placing Israelis at a significant danger.

[Idealism]

97. If you reread that, I point out that the other 10% include more things than weapons

EX: medical supplies, animals, cars, etc.

Yes, some weapons are smuggled in of course, but they are overwhelmingly used for necessities. Without those tunnels, people would be dying daily in Gaza of starvation- residents themselves say this to be true.

You are confusing the past blockade of Gaza with them denying humanitarian trucks from entering now. They have denied thousands and thousands of trucks carrying food from even entering into Gaza. That is criminal and even you cannot claim otherwise.

[Taitertots]

104. Why don't they

stop firing rockets into Israel? Then there would be no reason for the blockades and Israel would no longer be justified in limiting access. You admit the weapons used against Israeli civilians came through the tunnels. Why should the Israel open the crossing when it will just mean more rockets hitting Israel?

[Idealism]

114. If Israel stopped bombing them and shooting Palestinians, maybe this would happen

Similar to the last calming, Israel harms civilians first. June 19th redux, hours after the January 17th unilateral cease-fire went into effect, Israel was breaking the calm just like they did the June 19th agreement.

This has nothing to do with opening to border to allow civilians to leave, although I wish Israel would. This is about Israel not letting humanitarian aid into Gaza. This is criminal.

[iconicgnom]

13. Did you protest "operation cast lead"?

What did you do when the rain of fire was falling on Gaza?

Can you extend a hand across The Wall, or are you entirely intent on, e.g., expanding settlements in the west bank, and besieging Gaza?

[shira]

27. have some compassion for once, okay?

His daughter and grandchildren were almost killed.

[Bragi]

28. Really?

So a new, low-volume poster arrives on the scene, spouts the usual pro-Israel talking points, and then, to add authenticity to his/her arguments, says he/she just happens to have relatives who happen to be exactly where Hamas fired some rockets yesterday.

Color me just a tad skeptical.

- B

[henank]

30. Be skeptical all you like

I'm not so new here, been around for a year or more, just don't post very much. And does being new make one less believable?

As to my daughter being there - if you PM me I will give you her name and phone number in Israel and you can contact her yourself and get all the full technicolour details.

[Bragi]

33. Okay, so be it /nt

[LeftishBrit]

62. Henank has been on the forum for at least two years (nt)

[Idealism]

31. Funny to hear from you, who has zero compassion for the 1300 who WERE killed

Not almost killed. Its okay, any day we will hear a full report on how all 1300 killed were terrorists and/or sympathizers and deserved to die. Their deaths certainly don't outweigh the boundless new-found compassion you have for two people who were almost killed. You are a useless hypocrite.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Idealism]

36. I'd love to see some proof of your claims that I "admitted" that the deceased aren't victims.

If all you can do is try to obfuscate and resort to ad hominem, what good is even posting a response?

[shira]

38. look above, post #29

Israel isn't the innocent victim.

What exactly does that mean?

[Idealism]

40. Your arguments always center around the righteousness of Israel

and ignores all culpability. That Israel is just as guilty of crimes as Hamas is escapes you. That is what it means. How does that translate in your sick and twisted mind to me saying that the dead are at fault?

You have (i) a serious persecution complex and (ii) far too much self-pity.

[shira]

43. in my sick and twisted mind? and you accuse me of ad-hominems?

Your claim of Israel cannot be the innocent victim was in direct response to my post #26. That had nothing to do with Israeli culpability in any crimes.

[Idealism]

48. You can't understand that "Israel" clearly means the elected government, obviously.

But keep resorting to cries of anti-Semitism, and tell me how much I "hate Jews."

That will get you far, indeed. :eyes:

[shira]

58. forget the elected govt, how about the Jews of Israel being victims? they cannot?

[Idealism]

61. As I stated time and time again

The only innocent ones here are the civilians who lay dead, but they seem to be forgotten at times. Just another statistic to fight the accuracy of, when we really should be wondering why they lay dead in the first place- not "how many" there are. :(

[shira]

49. your arguments always center around the demonization of Israel

and ignores all evidence that most of your invective against Israel is replete with obfuscation, myth, half-baked stories, and outright lies. Can you imagine pro-Israel posters here demonizing Hamas in the manner that you demonize Israel? You're no better than any Islamophobic, who has a similar irrational hatred.

Can you imagine any pro-Israel poster here saying that Palestinians cannot be innocent victims?

"You have (i) a serious persecution complex and (ii) far too much self-pity."

Can you imagine any pro-Israel person attempting to accuse a Muslim or Palestinian of this?

Simply disgusting.

[Idealism]

50. You should look up the term, obviously.

It is a psychological condition, something learned. Invented in the psyche, one might say. The Israeli government has been trying to spread this meme that they are always the victims of the world. In the past, this was true so it is embedded in some people's minds. Horrible things have been done to the Jewish people, but when was the last pogrom? The tables have turned, and for the better part of the last century they have become the oppressor- the thing they used to hate the most. The problem is they still claim to be victimized- by the Muslims, by the world, et cetera, et cetera. No one understands Israel's plight, goes the story. Oh, don't look at these illegal settlements, or the imprisonment of 10,000 Palestinians- they aren't Chosen so we can take this land from them and throw them in jail- God told us it was ours. Let us focus on the harm being done to us because of these things, then lets excuse our massive overkill retaliatory strikes as collateral damage, because you know, what else could we have done?!

This type of narrow thinking has led the Israeli people to accept the right-wing talking points of history and now the chickens have come home to roost. I hope you like fascism, because Liberman is one of the most powerful politicians in Israel now. You'll be seeing some incremental changes in the rights category.

[shira]

57. the Israeli govt isn't the victim but the Jews of Israel

are, or are not targets and victims of Hamas - who incites the Palestinian people to genocide? I'm seriously trying to understand your argument here, not being facetious. "They" have become the oppressor - who - the Israeli govt or the Jews of Israel in general? No one understands the govt of Israel's plight, or the actual Jews of Israel and their plight? Just trying to understand.

[Idealism]

59. That is refreshing post, shira!

No ad homs, no baseless claims, etc. Honestly, well done, this is the way to have a discussion. Seriously.

To answer your questions: The theme of the post is that Israel= the elected government of the state. They people hold some small culpability in this category, but not most of it. When I (or most people, for that matter I believe) say "Israel," they are referring to the elected government. If I said "Israeli's" then it is obvious that I am talking about the general population of Israel.

If you look a few posts up I mention the only innocent victims here are the civilians on each sides. I believe both the Palestinian government and the Israeli government to be guilty as sin when it comes to their disregard for human life and international law violations. The Israeli government has become to oppressor of an entire society, much like how their ancestors were being oppressed at one time or another by almost every regime in the world.

I don't know where you brought the term "genocide" out of, but I go out of my way on this board to condemn such ludicrous talk. There is no genocide being done here. There has been massacres, yes, but no genocide. Recall that a massacre does not have a stated number of dead, only the precondition of having humans needlessly and unjustly killed (although people tend to coin the phrase when a significant amount of people have been dead. Exception is Americans: 5 die and it is a massacre...).

What I have been trying to articulate to you is that Palestinians, as well as all Muslims, are not by nature more felonious than Jews or Christians. They aren't born with hatred in their heart. They have developed it, by what they are told, but more than anything: by what they witness. Most people are visual learners. This is what truly brings out hatred: imagery. If you notice, when movies are posted on even DU that shows something that Israel has done wrong on, people are quick to jump down Israel's throats in anger. A picture is worth a thousands words, goes the saying, and you can see this every instance a video showing the Separation Wall, or the destroyed homes of innocent people, or the humanitarian aid trucks that aren't being allowed into Gaza. This is where the disturbing rise in anti-Semitism comes from more than anything.

[shira]

78. but you're not explaining how Israel cannot be an innocent victim

You're contradicting yourself when you say innocent Israelis are victimized by terror. That's my point. The nation of Israel's inhabitants, Israelis, are victims of terror. You then wrote this:

"If you look a few posts up I mention the only innocent victims here are the civilians on each sides. I believe both the Palestinian government and the Israeli government to be guilty as sin when it comes to their disregard for human life and international law violations. The Israeli government has become to oppressor of an entire society, much like how their ancestors were being oppressed at one time or another by almost every regime in the world."

How can the Israeli govt be an oppressor of an entire society without the society, Israelis, like journalists, doctors, and lawyers serving in the IDF and carrying out the govt's oppresive policies? Most in the IDF, including journalists who serve, may criticize Israel an awful lot, but they do not see Israel as you and those like yourself see Israel. Are all these Israelis, when not in uniform and at home with their families, innocent victims of terror attacks? Remember, 90% of Israelis were for OCL, believing that 8 years of rockets were enough and that forceful military action was necessary.

[Idealism]

80. Most Americans were for Iraq and Vietnam at the time

does that make it right?

You are so simpleminded that you cannot entertain the thought that BOTH sides are victims of terror?

When will you ever admit that Israel has terrorized the Palestinian population just as much- if not more- than terrorist groups have done the same to Israeli citizens? I am not holding my breath.

[azurnoir]

98. Wow thank you

this quote is indeed priceless

How can the Israeli govt be an oppressor of an entire society without the society, Israelis, like journalists, doctors, and lawyers serving in the IDF and carrying out the govt's oppresive policies? Most in the IDF, including journalists who serve, may criticize Israel an awful lot, but they do not see Israel as you and those like yourself see Israel. Are all these Israelis, when not in uniform and at home with their families, innocent victims of terror attacks? Remember, 90% of Israelis were for OCL, believing that 8 years of rockets were enough and that forceful military action was necessary.

and it is just wonderful of you to admit that it is not just the Israeli government that is in favor of oppressing Palestinians but 90% of the Israeli people themselves and that 9 out of ten Israelis apparently cheered while IDF rained WP on a heavily civilian populated area BTW did they make warning calls about that?

[shira]

101. that's not what I claim at all

with reading comprehension skills like that, it's no wonder your understanding of the I/P conflict is twisted.

[azurnoir]

124. Ah ha yeah

you wrote yourself in to a corner

[ProgressiveMuslim]

105. Have you ever noticed

that only a tiny minority in Israel is progressive, yet the US treats Israel as though it is a nation of peacemakers, in spite of the fact thatthe huge majority supports massacre and sits silently in the face of the disclosure that the Israeli gov't plans to double the settlement population?

[shira]

108. 90% of citizens in any progressive nation would

call for their govt to do something after 8 years of thousands of rockets launched against them. That doesn't mean they're all for war crimes and terrorism against the other nation's populace.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

110. 8 years of rockets? Imagine 40+ years of violent military occupation & land theft.

Regardless, I am beginning to think the oft-peddled notion that "most Israelis want peace" is quite a big myth.

Not enough, in any case.

[shira]

117. I think most Israelis want a complete divorce from Palestinians

just to get the damn thing over with, give Palestinians their own state, recognize it as such and leave Israelis the hell alone so they can get on with their lives.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

119. Real big of 'em. Like an abusive jackass after beating his wife for 40 years. nt

[shira]

123. would you have preferred that Israel had never occupied the territories

and that they should have been given back immediately to Jordan and Egypt, even if that meant no Palestine, ever?

And what I meant by a total divorce from Palestinians in the last post was everything offered at Taba and most recently at Annapolis. But that's not your idea of justice, is it?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

139. Oh really, Shira? What's my idea of justice? Since you know me so well and all... nt

[shira]

140. I asked you 2 simple questions. Can you please answer them?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

141. Shira, do you live in Israel? I believed in the precepts of Oso to the degree that I moved

my family, including 1 and 4 year old children, to live in Palestine.

Don't ever question my commitment to peace.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

146. Please stop evading my question, Shira: What you YOU ever laid on the line out of your belief in

peace? In which country do you live?

[shira]

160. no, I don't live in Israel

I have many friends who live there, however.

And you moved there based on Oslo? I thought you wrote previously that you were there during the late 80's during the first Intifada, which was several years before Oslo. So how could you move there based on Oslo if you were already there for several years prior to Oslo ever beginning?

[shira]

165. how could you move there based on your belief in Oslo...

when you wrote this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=228322&mesg_id=228525

Fri Dec-26-08 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Shira, I lived in Gaza Strip in the late 80s. Do you realize there were nightly 8 pm curfews?
One had to be in one's house every night by 8, or risk being shot on sight.

Oslo started in the 90's.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

170. I lived in Palestine on 2 occassions.

I lived in Gaza in late 80s when I got married.

The mukabharat refused to let my new husband leave, even though he has a US visa.

Eventually, in order to leave to study in the US, my husband had to sign a paper saying he wouldn't return for 3 years. Of course the travel document he was issued by Israel expired in a year, effectively deporting him. He took this to court and won. Having his "huwiyya" proved to be his undoing when we returned in 1995.

We returned to Palestine following the peace accords and lived in Ramallah for 2 years. Although my husband was a PhD holder in a field of critical develoment, and a university professor, the geniuses in the Ministry of Interior would never allow him to reside in the WB legally. The situation deteriorated over 2 years such that we saw the writing on the wall and left.

Since I answered your questions directly, please answer mine.

Are you Israeli? Have you ever lived in Israel? Served in the IDF?

[shira]

174. thanks for the info

and no, I'm not Israeli and have only visited a few times. I have friends and family there.

[Vegasaurus]

143. Justice is ending the existence of Israel as a Jewish state with "right of return

or replacing Israel with a "one state" solution (ie, another Muslim theocracy).

Now that would be some kind of justice, and just what people are after.

It's time for some honesty.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

147. You are so right. Justice is a bunch of Europeans moving in, ethnically cleansing the

indigenous population, levelling their villages, allowing a few to remain behind to live without equal rights, and then keeping millions living in ghettos behind apartheid walls, all the while, starving them, stealing their land, stealing the water beneath them, destroying any economy they might try to develop, throwing them in jail en masse without charge or trial...

all the while pretending to be pursuing peace while whining that it is "intolerable" when the they occassionally strike back.

THAT'S JUSTICE??

[ProgressiveMuslim]

142. Do you think somehow Israel's occupation is superior to Egyptian or Jordanian?

I don't recall Egypt or Jordan stealing land and murdering civilians from 48-67, do you?

[shira]

144. you still didn't answer the question

would you be happier now if Israel had never occupied the W.Bank or Gaza and gave it back immediately after the 6-day war? Even if that meant that there would be ZERO Palestinian aspirations now for their own state in those territories?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

145. WTF are you talking about?

There can only be Palestinian national aspirations in response to Israeli occupation?

I wasn't aware that that was a stated historical fact.

Typical Shira mind games.

Whatever.

[shira]

154. where was the Palestinian aspiration for their own homeland during Egyptian and Jordanian occupation

was there a concerted effort from 1948-1967 by Palestinians to end Jordanian/Egyptian rule? No, there wasn't.

I think we all know that if Egypt and Jordan still ruled the territories, there wouldn't be much call, if any, by Palestinians for them to end that occupation.

The only call for a Palestinian homeland would be in place of Israel, as it was until the late 1980's.

There wasn't a call by Palestinians for Egypt and Jordan to get out of the territories prior to 1967, so what makes you think there would be such a great outcry now if that occupation continued?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

155. Ah... Shira is a denier!

You're so right Shira. Palesinians have no right to national aspirations. They are just Jew-haters. The myriad Palestinian national organizations were all created to provide an outlet for Palestianian anti-semitism.

You have placed yourself on the same continuum as holocaust deniers, do you realize that?

Tsk Tsk.

[Vegasaurus]

157. The reality is there WERE no Palestinian national aspirations

during the Egyptian and Jordanian occupations.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

158. Really? You should acquaint yourself with the history of the region.

I'd be happy to recommend some reading for you.

Regardless, your argument is completely absurd. Every national movement has a beginning.

Your lame argument is simply another way that Zionist seek to deny the VALIDITY of Palestinian national aspirations.

Here's a newsflash: Palestinians have the same human aspirations that Jews have. And they have the same inherent right to those aspirations that Jews have. I realize this may be hard for you to accept.

Using your logic, one could argue that since the vast majority of Jews worldwide don't exercise the national aspirations, perhaps that right should be null and void -- since only the minority of Jews are interested, and all...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

159. Utter nonsense. But even if what you stated were true, SO WHAT?

Was there an international requirement to have one's national aspiration business plan on file by 1967 or all plans would forever be null and void?

You guys simply never miss a single opportunity to attempt to delegitimize or dehumanize the people of Palestine or their quest for the same human and political rights that you enjoy... a pretty shameful record.

[shira]

161. so why didn't Palestinians fight against Egyptian and Jordanian occupation

and claim that those territories should have been theirs instead? It took another 20 years after 1967 for anyone to articulate a 2-state solution. Prior to that, the Palestinian homeland was supposed to exist in place of, or on top of Israel. Oddly enough, actually it's quite pathetic, there was plenty of support for the PLO back then when all they called for was the destruction of Israel.

The point being, there is no reason to believe Palestinians (at least their leadership) would have wanted or demanded that Egypt and Jordan leave had Israel never occupied after 1967. The leadership then, as well as now, still wants the same thing they've wanted since 1948, and that doesn't include a sovereign Jewish state living in peace next to them. This is easy to prove, as Palestinians have been offered their own state and their leadership, hardly "desperate" for their own homeland, flat-out refuses it. Their hate against Israel is stronger than the quest for their own homeland.

What makes you think Egypt and Jordan would have handed over the territories by now to Palestinians had Israel never started occupation in 1967? Faith?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

162. Your ignorance is staggering, for one who spouts off as much as you do.

Consult any history book. Do you know in which year the PLO was formed?

Until you tell me in which country you live, I am done with this.

[shira]

164. I answered in #160. I don't live in Israel but have many friends who do.

and I asked you there how it was that you moved to Palestine due to Oslo when you admitted previously you were already there during Intifada 1 in the late 80's.

The PLO was formed prior to 1967 and was embraced by many people for its call to destroy Israel. There wasn't any call for liberation from Egypt and Jordan from 1948-1967, and I challenge you to find anything proving so.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

166. I understand your need to dismiss legitimate Palestinian national aspirations.

If you wish to believe nonsense -- that Palestinians don't have legitimate national aspirations -- they just want to hate Jews -- that is your choice.

I got married in Gaza in 1989. We stayed at my MILs until the Mukabarat relented, and allowed my husband to leave, forcing him to sign an agreement that he would not return for 3 years. At the same time, they provided a one-year travel document, effectively deporting him.

We returned as a family in 1995, by which time my husband was a US citizen and a PhD holder in an area of critical development. We moved to Ramallah. He was a university professor. He entered on his US passport, but with each re-entry, it became known to the Israelis officials that while my husband is a US citizen, he was originally from Gaza. My husband was never able to secure the permit that allowed him to be legally in the West Bank. Nor could I ever get a work permit.

So there we were, a young couple passionate about building the Palestinian nation, passionate about democracy, Westernized and politically moderate. And it was impossible to remain there.

The red carpet should have been rolled out for Palestinians like my husband to return. The reality was quite the opposite.

I blame the PA for this situation as well, as Arafat was too busy creating his crony network to pay much attention to nation buildings. I used to wonder why the Israelis began secret negotiations with the PLO during the first intifadah. Now the reasons why are pretty clear to me.

Gazans are the "untouchables" in the chain of Israeli occupation. No matter what my husband has achieved internationally in his field, he is nothing more than a dirty dog to the gov't of Israel.

The past 15 years have shown that Israel prefers to deal with Hamas rather than with educated, Westernized, moderate Palestinians. Good luck with that.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

156. Shira, do you live in Israel? Still waiting for you to stop evading the question.

What have you sacrificed for your belief in peace?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

163. Shira, why do you continually evade a simple question?

[Howardx]

172. admitting that they live in israel

would make it hard to justify being here at all. especially these one issue posters.

[LeftishBrit]

44. I am sorry to hear of your family's awful experience.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. Yr daughter must now know how many Gazans felt ..

Y'know, the lucky ones that were almost killed and who weren't one of the civilians who actually were killed. You should have some idea of how they felt now. I very much doubt the families of Palestinians would have felt emotions any different than yrs when their loved ones were nearly killed (or in way too many cases were actually killed). Does it really matter what the excuse for firing a rocket is, whether it's Israel or Palestinian militants firing them? The end result is the same, isn't it?

In your eyes I am also a target because I live in a town near Tel Aviv, and there are - gasp!!! - soldiers in my town!

Actually, if you took the lame logic of the IDF to its conclusion, that's exactly it. Israel bombed and attacked Palestinian civilians and then used the excuse that there were supposedly militants amongst them to try to justify the civilian deaths. And claiming that they're only targetting militants doesn't hold water when Israel fires knowing that in doing so large numbers of civilians will die. When actions are guaranteed to result in the deaths of innocent people, there's no 'but I didn't mean to hurt them. They just got in the way' excuse. Absolving Israel of responsibility for the deaths of innocent civilians in Gaza is like trying to argue that the arsonist who was arrested here shouldn't be charged with causing the deaths of many people a few weeks ago coz his intention wasn't to kill them, but to get some sort of sick gratification from the act of lighting a fire...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

63. Those few Gazans who didn't have loved ones murdered or maimed, anyway. nt

[pelsar]

168. when ignorance reigns...wrong again (i keep losing count...)

The "terrorists" cannot aim Qassams, as they have no guidance system

when the hamas leader in gaza claims that they will rocket beersheva and ashkelon and a day later rockets land in those cities....it pretty much means that they have a method of aiming at and hitting large areas with their kassam/grads.

it also means they have chosen to try to kill civilians since there are many army bases within range and they have chosen instead to aim and hit civilians...as per the leader of hamas in gaza has said.

unless of course the leader of hamas in gaza is to be dismissed because....... (somebody knows better than him?)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

64. Israeli troops open fire at farmers east of Khan Younis

Date: 03 / 03 / 2009 Time: 12:29



Gaza - Ma'an - Israeli forces used heavy artillery fire against farmers in the town of Al-Farrahin east of Khan Younis on Tuesday morning.

While no casualties were reported, witnesses said the shelling lasted for about five minutes, causing farmers to flee the area where they had been tending and collecting their crops.

Farmers in the area have come under repeated attack when harvesting or watering crops near the border area with Israel, despite being clearly identified as farmers

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36181

[ProgressiveMuslim]

65. Israelis demolish home in East Jerusalem

Date: 02 / 03 / 2009 Time: 16:27



Jerusalem – Ma’an – Israeli forces stormed the house of Mahmoud Al-Abbasi in the Ein Al-Loza area of the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan on Monday morning.

Al-Abbasi told Ma’an that a large Israeli police force surrounded the area where the house is located and stormed inside, forcing the family to leave and throwing furniture out.

But no clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police were immediately reported.

Al-Abbasi added that bulldozers demolished his house, in which 11 people lived, including nine children, and claiming that he had received no prior notice of the demolition beforehand.

The house was located in a neighborhood 500 meters from the Al-Bustan neighborhood in East Jerusalem, where Israeli officials

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36167

[ProgressiveMuslim]

66. Israeli forces shoot four demonstrators in Ni'lin

Date: 27 / 02 / 2009 Time: 17:19



Ramallah – Ma’an – Israeli soldiers shot four peaceful Palestinian protesters with rubber-coated metal bullets in the West Bank village of Ni’lin, near Ramallah on Frida.

After the Friday Muslim prayer, the villagers staged their weekly demonstration against the Israeli separation wall, which is being built on the village’s land. This week’s demonstration was also called in solidarity with the 1,500 residents of the Silwan area of Jerusalem whose homes are slated for demolition by Israel.

The demonstration was joined by International peace activists. The marchers chanted slogans calling for unity among Palestinians and resistance to the Israeli occupation.


http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36095

[ProgressiveMuslim]

67. Israeli soldiers assault Palestinian man in Hebron

Date: 02 / 03 / 2009 Time: 21:13



Hebron – Ma'an – Israeli soldiers assaulted a Palestinian man in the West Bank city of Hebron on Monday, according to witnesses and medics.

Medical workers said they administered first aid to 37-year-old Essam Abu Es’efan, from the Wadi Hussein area, in the east of Hebron. Abu Es’efan was treared for bruises on various parts of his body.

The man’s brother, Jamal Abu Es’efan, told Ma’an that Israeli soldiers attacked him while he was standing in front of his house. No reason was given for the attack.

Abu Es’efan’s condition has stabilized, his brother said.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36174

[ProgressiveMuslim]

68. Israeli forces raid Beit Ummar, north of Hebron

Date: 27 / 02 / 2009 Time: 09:20

Hebron – Ma’an –Violent clashes took place in the village of Beit Ummar, north of the West Bank city of Hebron on Thursday night when Israeli soldiers raided the village.

Witnesses in Beit Ummar said that young Palestinian threw stones at the soldiers, who fired stun grenades and bullets.

Clashes were also reported at the entrance of nearby Al-Arroub Refugee Camp.

No one was injured in either incident.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36078

[ProgressiveMuslim]

69. Israel seizes land in plan to encircle West Bank town with fence

Date: 26 / 02 / 2009 Time: 20:45



Bethlehem – Ma’an – The Israeli military has issued an order to confiscate farmland in order to build a 295-meter barbed-wire fence separating the West Bank town of Beit Ummar from an adjacent highway.

According to the Beit Ummar’s municipal council, the town is appealing the decision in an Israeli military tribunal and with the head of the land department in the Civil Administration.

Beit Ummar is located on the Jerusalem-Hebron road, south of the city of Bethlehem. Officials in the town say the residents are constantly attacked by the Israeli soldier staffing a checkpoint on the road at the entrance of the town. These attacks include nighttime raids on homes, shootings, and arrests. These incidents have also been reported to Israeli and Palestinian Authorities.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36075

[ProgressiveMuslim]

70. Israeli forces detain 13 across West Bank

Date: 03 / 03 / 2009 Time: 09:31



Nablus – Ma’an – Israeli forces detained 13 civilians from Nablus, Ramallah and Hebron before sunrise Tuesday morning.

From Nablus eight were detained after as many Israeli vehicles entered the city, surrounded and stormed several homes. Most homes were in the Old City area where two brothers were among those taken.

Locals identified those detained as:

Nidal Abu Koshk,
Mahmoud Nayef Issa,
Fares Halawah and his brother Firas,
Ala’ Rizeq,
Nasser Halawah,
Ala’ Halawah, and
Ahmad Esteitiyah

The names of the other five men have not yet been reported.

Following the detention sweep Israeli forces withdrew and took the men to an unknown location.



http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36176

[ProgressiveMuslim]

71. Israelis beat, detain young Palestinian at Nablus checkpoint

Date: 01 / 03 / 2009 Time: 18:46



Nablus – Ma’an – Israeli soldiers arrested 20-year-old Husam Mohammad Abu Hamad from a village near Nablus on Sunday, local witnesses said.

The young man from the village of A’sira Al-Qebliya was beaten before his arrest at the Huwwara checkpoint on the outskirts of the West Bank city of Nablus, witnesses claimed.

"The Israeli soldiers harshly beat Abu Hamad trying to pass through Huwwara, before being handcuffed, and then transferred him to the nearby Huwwara military post," one of the witnesses told Ma'an.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36145

[ProgressiveMuslim]

72. Israeli settlers' unleashed pigs attack Palestinian near Nablus

Date: 01 / 03 / 2009 Time: 21:44



Nablus – Ma’an – Dozens of pigs belonging to Israeli settlers attacked a Palestinian young man from the village of An-Nasarieyah, north of the West Bank city of Nablus, on Sunday.

Palestinian medical sources said that Ayman Ibrahim Hamdan, 25, was transferred to Rafidia Hospital in the city after being bitten by one of the pigs.

Hamadan told Ma’an that dozens of pigs unleashed by the Israeli settlers of the illegal settlement of Al-Hamra adjacent to the village had attacked him while he was in his farm in the village.

One of the pigs apparently bit him in the foot, causing injuries, and he was transferred to the hospital, where his condition was described as lightly injured.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36152

[Taitertots]

107. Those deadly attack pigs bred to attack Palestinians

Do those evil zionists know no bounds? How dare they lightly injure Palestinians.

[shira]

109. yes, those zionist pigs are bred only to attack arabs, not jews

and then they return on command, by remote control, back to the zionists who breed them for more mayhem.

You'd think the arabs would be grateful, kill the pigs either for good eating or resell them back as bacon on the open market. Settlers can't even do arabs a favor by giving away cash cows, er, pigs.

:eyes:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

112. What? No jokes about the raids, stolen land, peaceful protestors shot, sweeps through towns, or

deaths by explosives?

Just another week under benign occupation.

[LeftishBrit]

127. These actions are certainly anything but a joke. Occupation is not benign. It needs to end.

I hope that the new American government can put some pressure here, as I don't think Likud will budge otherwise.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

111. Like Sderotniks with their "shock!" You'd think by now the rockets wouldn't be so shocking. nt

[LeftishBrit]

126. Do the settlers really keep *pigs*?

It sounds unlikely, given their strong religious views. Does anyone here know?

[eyl]

128. OK, I call BS on this

unless you can give a more reputable source.

I find it extremely unlikely that settlers - many of whom, especially in the Hebron region, are militantly religious - would be raising pigs in the first place.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

138. I'm sure this story is more satisfying for you guys, since a settler car was used:

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36195

[ProgressiveMuslim]

73. Boy killed by explosives left by Israeli soldiers in Tubas

Date: 26 / 02 / 2009 Time: 17:04


Tubas is in the northern West Bank

Tubas – Ma’an – A Palestinian child was killed and two others injured when ordinance left behind by the Israeli army exploded in the West Bank town of Tubas.

Palestinian medical sources in Ash-Shifa hospital in Tubas said that 15-year-old Jamal Abed An-Naser Al-Fuqaha died.

Sixteen-year-old Muhammad Ibrahim Al-Fuqaha and 17-year-old Mohammad Khalil Al-Fuqaha were injured in the explosion. Their wounds were described as moderate and slight.

A spokesperson for the Palestinian Authority’s security services said “The incident occurred in an area called Barda, seven kilometers east of Tubas, where there are many training grounds for the Israeli army

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36067

[ProgressiveMuslim]

74. Israeli forces seize Palestinian at Al-Hamra checkpoint; hundreds denied passage

Date: 21 / 02 / 2009 Time: 09:37

Jenin – Ma’an – Israeli forces on Saturday seized a young Palestinian man at Al-Hamra checkpoint in the northern Jordan Valley and denied hundreds of others passage through the checkpoint.

Eyewitnesses named the detainee as Hamdan Bsharat from the northern West Bank village of Tammun, south of Nablus.

Witnesses told Ma’an via telephone that more than 500 people were stopped at Al-Hamra checkpoint and denied passage in or out. Soldiers took the ID cards of some people which means they can no longer travel through any Israeli military checkpoint.

The witnesses asserted that Israeli troops treated people harshly forcing them to move from under trees where they had taken shelter from heavy rain.


http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35952

[ProgressiveMuslim]

75. Israeli troops overrun Tulkarem at dawn Tuesday

Date: 03 / 03 / 2009 Time: 13:22



Tulkarem – Ma’an – Israeli troops overran several areas in the northern West Bank city of Tulkarem on Tuesday at dawn.

No one was detained.

Palestinian security sources told Ma’an that troops deployed in the eastern and central parts of the city, where they raided several houses.

The homes apparently belong to Raed Awwad and Yousef Ar-Raghd from the town of Thanabah, nearby, and Abdel Latif Jarad, whose house was apparently ransacked by the time the soldiers left.

The security sources insisted that the troops raided the Anbata village in east Tulkarem, drove around its streets and deployed in the city throughout the early morning hours.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36183

[Howardx]

122. next to a school of course

par for the course. how many cases of shock were there?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

129. Israel to demolish 55 homes in Jerusalem-area refugee camp

Date: 03 / 03 / 2009 Time: 19:59

Jerusalem – Ma’an – Israeli authorities plan to demolish 55 homes in a refugee camp near Jerusalem, according to a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC).

The Fatah-affiliated PLC member, Jihad Abu Zneid, told Ma’an on Tuesday that Israel informed 55 Palestinian families at the Jerusalem-area Shu’fat Refugee Camp that their homes were slated for demolition, citing that their homes were built without permits.

Abu Zneid issued the statement from her office in Jerusalem, warning of what she called an Israeli policy of “genocide” against Palestinians in and around the city, aimed at displacing the indigenous residents of Jerusalem.

“The Israeli occupation is going ahead with its barbarian policy against the Palestinian people, especially these arbitrary decisions that assert that they want the Palestinian people displaced from their homes and their city,” the statement claimed.

Abu Zneid went on to say that the Israeli occupation would fail in light of Palestinian “steadfastness” and protests against the activities there.

She called on all the Palestinian people to show solidarity with the people of Shu’fat camp on Thursday and to announce a “state of anger” in order to thwart Israeli plans against Jerusalem.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36196

[ProgressiveMuslim]

130. Israelis demolish home in East Jerusalem

Date: 02 / 03 / 2009 Time: 16:27



Jerusalem – Ma’an – Israeli forces stormed the house of Mahmoud Al-Abbasi in the Ein Al-Loza area of the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Silwan on Monday morning.

Al-Abbasi told Ma’an that a large Israeli police force surrounded the area where the house is located and stormed inside, forcing the family to leave and throwing furniture out.

But no clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police were immediately reported.

Al-Abbasi added that bulldozers demolished his house, in which 11 people lived, including nine children, and claiming that he had received no prior notice of the demolition beforehand.

The house was located in a neighborhood 500 meters from the Al-Bustan neighborhood in East Jerusalem, where Israeli officials

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36167

[ProgressiveMuslim]

131. Nine Palestinians seized overnight across West Bank

Date: 04 / 03 / 2009 Time: 09:24



Bethlehem - Ma'an/Agencies - Israeli forces seized nine "wanted" Palestinians across the West Bank on Tuesday night, according to news reports.

An M-16 rifle was reportedly found at the house of one of the arrestees.

All of the detainees were transferred to undisclosed locations for questioning, according to Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth's online, English-language version.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36201

[ProgressiveMuslim]

132. Israeli troops detain four Palestinians from Ramallah

Date: 03 / 03 / 2009 Time: 15:19



Ramallah – Ma’an – Israeli troops detained four young men after raiding the Qaddura refugee camp in Ramallah on Tuesday and took them to an unknown destination.

Palestinian security sources said troops overran the camp at dawn and raided several houses. Those detained were identified as:

Abdel Baset Janatah, 24,
Ibrahim Husny Marshed, 23,
Rami Al-faroukh, 24, and
Muhamad Abu At-Tahrir 29

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36189

[ProgressiveMuslim]

133. Israeli soldiers assault Palestinian man in Hebron

Date: 02 / 03 / 2009 Time: 21:13



Hebron – Ma'an – Israeli soldiers assaulted a Palestinian man in the West Bank city of Hebron on Monday, according to witnesses and medics.

Medical workers said they administered first aid to 37-year-old Essam Abu Es’efan, from the Wadi Hussein area, in the east of Hebron. Abu Es’efan was treared for bruises on various parts of his body.

The man’s brother, Jamal Abu Es’efan, told Ma’an that Israeli soldiers attacked him while he was standing in front of his house. No reason was given for the attack.

Abu Es’efan’s condition has stabilized, his brother said.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36174

[ProgressiveMuslim]

134. Military forces seal off village near Salfit

Date: 04 / 03 / 2009 Time: 10:57



Salfit – Ma’an – Israeli forces on Wednesday morning closed entrances to the northern West Bank village of Haris, west of Salfit.

Soldiers reportedly piled dirt to block a road before arresting a young man from the Shamlawi family.

Eyewitnesses said that Israeli bulldozers dug up large piles of earth, closing the village’s three main entrances and preventing anyone from entering or exiting the area.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36208

[ProgressiveMuslim]

135. Israeli forces storm Jenin camp and nearby Arraba

Date: 04 / 03 / 2009 Time: 11:43



Jenin – Ma’an – Israeli forces on Wednesday morning stormed the northern West Bank refugee camp of Jenin and the nearby town of Arraba, Palestinian security sources said.

Soldiers also ransacked several homes including that of jailed Hamas leader Jamal Abu Al-Hayja, they added.

Meanwhile, Israeli forces ransacked several homes in the refugee camp firing gunshots and percussion grenades into the air as military vehicles patrolled the streets.

Local sources in the camp asserted that amongst the homes ransacked was home of Jamal Abu Al-Hayja, a senior Hamas leader in the camp.

The family was ordered to leave the home for several hours as troops ransacked the interior of the house, firing percussion grenades inside.

Abu Al-Hayja has been jailed in Israel since the 2002 Israeli invasion and “massacre” in Jenin.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36209

[ProgressiveMuslim]

136. Israeli forces destroy property, beat teenager east of Qalqiliya

Date: 04 / 03 / 2009 Time: 10:21



Qalqiliya – Ma’an – Israeli forces raided the town of Jit, east of Qalqiliya, at dawn on Wednesday.

The forces stormed a number of houses there and searched them, claiming they were looking for “wanted” Palestinians.

Local sources reported that the forces stormed the houses of Ali As-Sidda, Taysir Yamin and Nasser As-Sakhen, and searched them.

Soldiers also destroyed property and beat 17-year-old Mahmoud Ali As-Sidda, witnesses said.

Civilians reported that the soldiers claimed Palestinians threw stones at the settlers’ cars passing near the town and demanded that the alleged attackers turn themselves in.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36204

[ProgressiveMuslim]

137. Palestinian struck by settler car near Qalqiliya

Date: 03 / 03 / 2009 Time: 18:41



Qalqilia – Ma’an – A Palestinian man was moderately injured after being struck by an Israeli settler’s car in the village of Nabi Elias, east of Qalqilya.

Eyewitnesses said the man was crossing the road when an Israeli woman hit him with her private car.

The man was identified as 55-year-old Jamil Al-Jidi from the northern West Bank town of Habla, south of Qalqiliya.

Palestinian Red Crescent and Israeli Red Star of David ambulances arrived on the scene and the man was transferred to Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in Qalqiliya after Israeli ambulances refused to take him to an Israeli hospital, witnesses said.


http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36195

[ProgressiveMuslim]

148. Palestinians killed in two Israeli airstrikes in Gaza

Date: 05 / 03 / 2009 Time: 09:40



Gaza – Ma’an – Israeli warplanes killed four Palestinians in two separate airstrikes in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday night and Thursday morning.

The latest fatalities were killed in an airstrike in the east of Al-Maghazi Refugee camp, in the central Gaza Strip, early on Thursday.

A spokesperson for the Al-Quds Brigades, Abu Ahmad, said that Wasim Mansour, a member of his group, and Mahmoud Hammad, a member of the National Resistance Brigades, the armed wing of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), died immediately.

Another Islamic Jihad member, Ibrahim Bamba, died later at Al-Aqsa Hospital in the Ccentral Gaza Strip. Another man was said to be seriously wounded.

Abu Ahmad said that an Israeli reconnaissance plane monitored a group of fighters from both factions who were advancing towards the eastern border of Gaza, before launching two missiles at them.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36227

On Wednesday evening another Israeli reconnaissance drone fired missiles at a car in Jabaliya Refugee Camp, killing one member of the Al-Quds Brigades.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

149. Israeli forces seize five civilians from two towns near Hebron

Date: 05 / 03 / 2009 Time: 12:31



Hebron – Ma’an – Israeli forces seized five Palestinian civilians in the West Bank towns of Sa’ir and Beit Ummar, north of Hebron on Wednesday night and Thursday morning.

According to Palestinian security officials and local sources, Israeli forces conducted house-to-house raids in Sa’ir, arresting 40-year-old Issa Al-Froukh, 32-year-old Sa’ed Al-Halayqah and 38-year-old Ibrahim Al-Halayqah.

In Beit Ummar, Israeli forces detained 19-year-old Muntasser Abu Ayyash and 17-year-old Ahmad Abd Al-Aziz during skirmishes in the town late on Wednesday.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36234

[ProgressiveMuslim]

150. Israeli forces raid Nablus-area village

Date: 05 / 03 / 2009 Time: 10:45



Nablus – Ma’an – Israeli forces overran the West Bank village of Madama, south ofthe city Nablus, and handed documents to several men summoning them for interrogation.

Hassan Ziadeh, a member of the village council, told Ma’an that Khaled Ziadeh, Abdel Karim Ziyadeh, Ihsan Awad Al-Qut, and Ahmad Sadeq Al-Qut were all summoned for questioning by the Israeli intelligence at a nearby military base.

No injuries or arrests were reported.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

151. Israeli forces detain PFLP leader at Huwwara checkpoint

Date: 04 / 03 / 2009 Time: 20:17



Nablus – Ma’an – Israeli troops arrested on Wednesday a high-ranking leader in the Popular Front for the leftist Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) at the Huwwara checkpoint south of the West Bank city of Nablus.

Witnesses said that soldiers stopped Hussam Ar-Ruzza, 45, at the checkpoint and transported him to an unknown destination.

The Huwwara checkpoint blocks the road leading south of Nablus to Ramallah and Jerusalem. Palestinians are barred from passing through the checkpoint in cars or busses, and are forced to walk through metal detectors.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36223

[ProgressiveMuslim]

152. Israeli troops beat father, two sons at Beita checkpoint

Date: 04 / 03 / 2009 Time: 17:17



Nablus – Ma’an – A truck driver and two of his sons were injured on Wednesday after Israeli forces beat the three men at a checkpoint south of Nablus, witnesses said.

All three had bruises on their bodies following the alleged beatings near the Beita checkpoint.

Several Israeli soldiers beat 55-year-old Mahmoud Ghassan Odeh after he stopped his truck near the Beita crossing, as well as his two sons who tried to intervene in the reported assault.

After the assault Odeh was taken, his face bloodied, to the Huwwara military installation.

Witnesses told Ma’an on Wednesday evening that Muhamad, 20, and Ghassan, 23, were taken to a hospital in Nablus “with bruises all over their bodies” as Israeli soldiers detonated sound grenades at crowds rushing toward the scene.

The Beita checkpoint was set up several months earlier, and is typically used to check cars and identity cards of Palestinians passing through the area.

Odeh is said to be a leader in the Fatah movement in the village of Huwwara, also south of Nablus. Another Fatah leader in the town, Awwad Odeh, has called for an investigation into the attack.



http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36218

[ProgressiveMuslim]

153. Israel continues Gaza blockade; no increase in trickle of aid

Date: 05 / 03 / 2009 Time: 12:23


Trucks wait at the Kerem Shalom
crossing
Gaza – Ma’an – Israel allowed minimum levels of food and fuel through two border crossings into the Gaza Strip on Thursday in spite of reports that Israel would allow increased amounts of goods into the territory.

On Thursday the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that Israel had bowed to pressure from US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and agreed to allow more aid into the besieged territory. The report quoted anonymous Israeli officials.

Ra’ed Fattouh, a crossings official in Gaza, said that Israel allowed 115 trucks through the Kerem Shalom crossing, including 74 containing aid for the UN’s agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, and other international organizations.

Another 31 trucks carried frozen meat for the commercial sector and 10 entered carrying fruit and eggs for the agricultural private sector.

This level of goods is almost identical to the shipments Israel has allowed into Gaza since the end of the three-week offensive against the territory in January. On Wednesday Israel allowed 110 truckloads through.

Israel also allowed 450,000 liters of EU-supplied industrial diesel through the Nahal Oz crossing for Gaza’s sole power plant. Cooking gas, which is in short supply in Gaza, was not allowed.

The Karni crossing, used to ship grain and animal feed, was closed.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=36233

[pelsar]

167. jsut stop shooting rockets....

what the hell is so complex here? so difficult?...you want a state?..have your brethren stop trying to kill israelis daily.......every day for the last 4 years from gaza and more sporadically from the westbank.

You call it a "defense"...call it what you want, its a failure of a policy, so is using a tractor to kill jews, so is shooting up israelis schools so is blowing up busses, killing israeli athletes....get over your "killing or trying to kill any and all israelis is an acceptable defense" and that would be the first real step toward a state....

not to difficult a concept, but until that sinks in...little will change. Its a shame, your brethren can still fix gaza and make it work....they can start whenever they feel like it, perhaps pass the word on.

____________
got bad news for the Palestenians....as the terrorism spreads, as in the style that the Palestinians have developed (india, pakistan, etc) the sympathy by countries that receive that kind of terrorism will be more reluctant to back the Palestinians and will be asking israel for help....

Its a real shame.....such a massive waste, and except for some convoluted midde eastern version of "pride", there is no reason why gaza cant be turned around. On the good side, there is talk that hamas is now considering stopping the rocket fire by IJ (who is doing the main firing these days)...so maybe the gazans have a chance for a better life.....its up to them....and the biggest problem is swallowing their pride and "proving that despite the rhetoric, they can be practical....and work with israel. (i get the impression that your against that....that you prefer their lives be miserable and the rocket fire continue.....but thats just an impression)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

169. Just stop stealing, terrorizing, murdering, locking away, stealing land, humiliating, harrassing,

rounding up, "sweeping,"... the short list I provided shows life in TWO DAYS.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

173. I'm afraid I don't entirely agree.

You say that "Except for some convoluted midde eastern version of "pride", there is no reason why gaza cant be turned around"

I'm afraid I think you are far too charitable towards Israel here - I don't think Israel will allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state.

Like you, I think that the Palestinians should stop the rockets. But I think it's disingenuous to the point of dishonesty to suggest that Israel would end the occupation if they did. Look at past form, and look at the most recent set of election results. The word "concessions" simply isn't part of mainstream Israeli thought at the moment, except as a dirty word.

The Palestinian choice is simple - keep firing rockets, and the settlements will continue to grow and Israeli violence and oppression will continue, or stop firing rockets, and the settlements will continue to grow (probably even faster) and Israeli violence and oppression will continue (albeit probably slightly less viciously).

I think the latter is the right choice, on the grounds that firing rockets at civilians is simply wrong, even if those civilians are voting for Likud and Yisrael Beitenu (or if they're voting for Hamas), but I don't think that you have any evidence to support the claim that if they do so, Gaza is likely to become prosperous.


And the converse proposition - that if Israel were to offer a just peace, the Palestinians would accept - seems far more plausible. But there seems no chance of that whatsoever.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

171. All the more reason to make peace.

The only way Israel can end these attacks is by making the numerous, large, painful concessions that will be necessary to make peace.

Nothing else will stop them.