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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:28 PM
Original message
Marching for Hamas
Guest Columnist: Marching for Hamas

Hamas is a bully aided by a bigger bully, Iran. And, just as strident and threatening human bullies get away with their aggression so long as no one calls their bluff, so Hamas has been getting away with murder and torture because the UN and many states won't call its two-faced self-portrayal as the victim in the piece. In the struggle to take over Gaza from Fatah, it went on a rampage that killed hundreds of Palestinians. Even during this most recent assault, in early January, it executed Fatah members for violating their house arrest. A few weeks ago, Hamas determined to hurt yet more of its compatriots by introducing Islamic hudud punishments to the Strip, from amputations and stonings, to crucifixions and hangings.

Like all bullies, it likes to taunt its victims. It did just that for years after Israel left Gaza, firing rockets every day into towns like Sderot or Netivot. No one who has dismissed these rockets as harmless homemade toys has ever had the guts to spend a few weeks in Sderot, scurrying from shelter to shelter. And, oh yes, it also built up an arsenal (supplied by Iran) of Grad missiles that certainly aren't anybody's toys.

Like all bullies, Hamas likes to make boastful threats. Its 1988 Covenant is replete with them. It threatens to destroy the State of Israel by violence and violence alone. It says it will never accept the work of conferences or peacemakers, and only jihad will solve its problems. Meanwhile, the Palestinians see their lives drained away in a culture that embraces death and martyrdom, their children exposed to a steady diet of military training and preparation for violent death as suicide bombers.

Even if the Palestinians want peace, Hamas won't let them have it, because Hamas knows best, and jihad "is the only solution." Don't believe me, read the Covenant. It likes nothing better than killing Jews, and the bigger bully in Teheran thinks that's a damn fine thing too. No one says a word, because the UN is dominated by the Islamic states, and the Western governments know where the oil comes from, and nobody likes the Jews much anyway. The people calling for the end of Israel while they march on the streets of London and Dublin aren't all Muslims by any means.
Interestingly enough the author is Irish and makes some comparisons
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. a steaming load, from Pipes' new disciple
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. At least as credible as anthing in EI or Al-Ahram
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'll make this brief
There's what I'm hoping is some major disconnect here... Since I know you have an agenda, I'm going to assume you know what one is. Do you know theirs? Is that something you're on board with? If so, I'm mistaken in thinking that we have anything to discuss.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. tolerance...thats what i like about so many "progressives"....
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 12:18 AM by pelsar
there are those who are willing to discuss the various points of any problem...and of course like any group there are those who are so deep into "their religion" that any discussion or question of the faith is left with a "nothing to discuss" there a "progressive church" somewhere where they gather?

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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. well, I don't necessarily consider myself a "progressive" or whatever else
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 12:59 AM by Alamuti Lotus
I have difficulty associating myself with any label that I cannot completely define myself; probably certain control, trust and abandonment issues on display there, but I haven't enough cocaine in my system for a proper psychoanalysis. What follows is probably more information than you'd care to know, but I feel compelled to insert that little crow-bar to prevent any misconceptions about my own agenda; since I'm picking on others for theirs, being forthright on my own would be only fair.

The difference is, I alone may be honest in speaking on the matter, while others prefer to hide behind obviously false euphemisms (particularly those who would attempt to convince us of this in their chosen nom de keyboard). My primary influences are three extremely incompatible figures; Friedrich Nietzche, Leon Trotsky, and Hasan as-Sabah. I would be happy to explain the coalesence in proper detail if desired, though not at this immediate moment. Suffice to say that one is 'the idea' (hammer of the idols, revaluation of all values), the other is 'the scope' (permanent world social revolution), the last is 'the application' (too lengthy to soundbyte).

Now, back to the subject at hand. Those who support the crypto fascist propagandist Pipes and his cronies earn nothing of "tolerance" or whatever else of the sort. Rather akin to a Klansman, in the eyes of your humble narrator. There are certain limits to potential compatibility; one that has chosen to be so far beyond those (though probably not in their own minds) exempt themselves from any normal consideration; I assume it would be mutual.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. i prefer the message and not the messenger...
Those who support the crypto fascist propagandist Pipes and his cronies earn nothing of "tolerance" or whatever else of the sort.

i've read some very intelligent and thoughtful pieces out of hamas, i may not agree, but the insight is important.... dismissing a message because you dont like their other opinions remains within the realm of "religion and intolerance, no matter how your wrap it up....
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Alamuti Lotus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I suppose there is a clear distinction to be made..
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 03:02 AM by Alamuti Lotus
between considering the viewpoints of others on the one hand (not a bad gig, surprises abound), and taking it seriously without knowing what lies behind on the other. Not unconditionally, but I will often place 'why' above 'what'; the latter is an event that occurs, the former is why it will continue to do so.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. Pipes' new disciple runs a blog called
Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 06:40 AM by shira
"Liberal defense of Israel".

Shall we see to it that this "liberal" collaborator with the zionazi regime of Israel is made to walk the plank? Off with the head? Hang him high over the town?


He brings up some good points - one of which should be obvious to all.

That being pro-Palestinian is to essentially back Hamas - or seeing to it that Hamas actions are minimized, their charter is ignored, their propaganda is considered legitimate for consumption in the West. This is "pro-Palestinian leadership", not pro-Palestinian people.

A movement that only recycles Hamas or PLO propaganda while minimizing who and what Hamas really is, in reality, a movement that is only prolonging everyone's misery - especially Palestinian misery. It's prolonging the conflict. It's certainly not siding with Palestinians in general as much as it is siding with Palestinian leadership. And judging by Hamas' charter, what progressive in his or her right mind would want to side with Hamas leadership and see to it that they're rarely held accountable for their actions - which must be minimized for some reason? The charter says it all (Jews must die, no peace only jihad, etc.). Are we to think they don't really mean that? Have they not proven their intent by now?

Why is it that many have such a difficult time identifying Arab and Palestinian leadership as victimizers of their own people? Why is it they don't want to hear or admit how bad and monstrous Hamas really is? As if this is blasphemy that goes against their religious beliefs? Can't they see how harmful this is to Hamas' victims, the Palestinian people they claim to represent?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-09 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. That's as ludicrous as saying to be pro-Israel is to be a Kahanist. nt
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. you misunderstood me
Do you believe Hamas victimizes Palestinians, brainwashes children to the extent of encouraging them to be 'martyrs', uses women in the same way (as martyrs) and degrades them?

Remember they just instituted Sharia Law too.

If you believe Hamas victimizes Palestinians - why aren't you concerned that this doesn't get much press or attention that moderate Palestinians need in order to defend against Hamas religious extremists? Isn't it important to come to the defense of moderate Palestinians who need help against Hamas?

I believe it's important to help our friends, those moderate Palestinians who - without question - suffer under Hamas. That makes me pro-Palestinian, but not pro-Palestinian leadership.

By not pointing out the fact that Hamas not only victimizes Israelis but also Palestinians, isn't that a form of pro-Palestinian LEADERSHIP that only prolongs the misery of Palestinians - and delays any prospects for real peace?

It's not anti-Palestinian to hold Hamas responsible for their hate and warcrimes, is it? I would think that by holding them accountable for their actions, this is the way to HELP Palestinians.

You disagree?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. I have come to see
after a year and a half on this board, and reading on other blogs, that a lot of pro-Palestinian posters seem to trump violent resistance over anything that would improve the lives of the Palestinians.

Human and civil rights abuses are excused in these cultures.

Why? Because they are not being perpetrated by "Western imperialists" but by the indigenous people themselves.

As if that makes such abuses ok?

Just the other day, a poster defended the notion that it was better for Gazans to be destitute and out of work than to be the "slaves" of Israel, doing their "dirty work".

Isn't work better than no work?

Apparently not, according to this poster.

Violent resistance is better.

It would seem that people who actually CARED about Palestninans would worry about their loss of rights under Hamas, their poor treatment, their being used as political pawns.

You'd think they would see that violent resistance has increased misery, so instead of continuing to push for that, maybe people who really cared about Palestinians would help them find another way.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. ergo, "marching for Hamas"
Edited on Wed Jan-28-09 10:18 AM by shira
because that's what HAMAS actually wants - more violence and "resistance".

I'd like to see anyone here try to claim that moderate Palestinians also want violence and resistance, and that they are FOR Hamas - and that Hamas speaks for them. Therefore being pro-Hamas is in reality being pro-Palestinian.

The fact is Palestinians (especially women and children) are VICTIMS of Hamas and it's perplexing that many do not realize that by NOT holding Hamas accountable for victimizing Palestinians, they are only extending and prolonging Palestinian suffering.

Israel is accused of many crimes that cannot even be proven.

Hamas virtually gets away with anything - even against Palestinian civilians. And there's no similar outrage to protect ordinary Palestinians who REQUIRE protection from Hamas?


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. Look here! Look here! Don't, for the love of god, look over there.
Yes, yes, the Hamas covenant is a vile screed, but Hamas is no more capable of inflicting existential harm on Israel than a 2 year old is of beating up a grown man.

And in the light of the truly horrific evidence of war crimes that Israel has so recently committed, this just sounds like another effort to distract from that.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. you're missing the point
Edited on Wed Jan-28-09 10:46 AM by shira
I wonder if it's intentional. Is it?

You accuse Israel of intentionally committing war crimes, without proof of it. Can we accuse you of intentionally dismissing the main point of the article?

Why isn't there similar outrage at Hamas for its actions? They've made their genocidal intent well known and have committed scores of demonstrably proven war crimes. They abuse Palestinian children and women who they make/force into marytrdom and they will never make peace no matter how much Palestinians want it.

They victimize Palestinians as much or MORE than they do Israelis.

So why aren't people who claim to be pro-Palestinian also anti-Hamas? Don't moderate Palestinians deserve to have SOMEONE defend them from Hamas? Why does Hamas get a virtual free pass from the UN and media - and not the same amount of outrage as Israel receives?

It's not just a double-standard. It's morally repugnant.

By NOT holding Hamas accountable, by not showing outrage at their actions, we are damning Palestinians to more misery and suffering.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. oh, fucking please? Intentional?
What would my motives be, dear? What is it you really want to say? I've been called everything here, from an anti-semite to a pro-Israel shill, so feel free.

Proof? No. Strong evidence? Yes, according to HRW and the ICRC.

Why isn't there a similar outcry about Hamas? In part because they haven't wreaked the havoc and killed and maimed nearly as many innocents. That's one reason. Why else? They do NOT HAVE THE MEANS TO PERPETRATE GENOCIDE. PERIOD.
Why else? Because the Palestinians are suffering in a way that the Israelis are not.

Yes, Hamas is a despicable political/terrorist group, but I've seen no evidence that they force women and children into martyrdom. There are willing volunteers. What that says about the culture and the forces, both internal and external, that forged that culture, is another story.

And I'm neither pro-Palestinian, nor pro-Israeli, as you should know. Lastly, what I find morally repugnant is that you can brush over the strong evidence of Israeli war crimes. (btw, neither the U.N, nor the media or Human rights organizations are ignoring Hamas' illegal actions)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. you accuse Israel of intentional.....don't like it?
And gee, you piss everyone off so that must prove you're objective.


As for "proof", HRW and other human rights orgs said they had "proof" of a Jenin massacre. As well as the Muhammad al-Dura murder. How'd that work out? Where's all that compelling proof now?

Forget what Hamas does to Israelis....I realize you don't live in Sderot, nor have you visited there - so those people aren't really suffering according to you. 8,000 rockets, some Grad missiles from Iran....whatever.

Focus please on Palestinian children who are indoctrinated and ABUSED by Hamas:

And then there's pay attention:


Hamas using children in combat support roles

by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, Jan. 13, 2009

A child in Gaza describes how he and other children are being used in combat support roles for Hamas fighters. According to the Palestinian child, children are being used as scouts to follow Israeli movements, and as couriers to supply ammunition and deliver information to the Hamas fighters.

The following is the description of the children's combat support roles, quoted in an Israeli Arab weekly:

" Kul Al-Arab called many Gaza Strip residents, to comprehend the situation of the people who are suffering for two weeks from the wild Israeli aggression...

Khaled, from A-Rimal , said: 'We the children, in small groups and in civilian clothes, are fulfilling missions of support for the Resistance fighters, by transmitting messages about the movements of the enemy forces, or by bringing them ammunition and food. We ourselves are not aware of the movements of the Resistance fighters. We see them in one place, they suddenly disappear, and then reappear somewhere else. They are like ghosts, it is very hard to find them or hurt them.'"


Whether these children "volunteer" or not, they are being taken advantage of and used for MILITARY purposes. This is simply outrageous and is without question a war crime.

But whatever, and you expect the UN and media to focus and stay committed to acts like this as much as they focus on Israel?

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. more Hamas child abuse
PMW's Background Brief on Hamas #2:
Bombs are "more precious" than children:
Hamas children's education
by Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook, Jan. 11, 2009

IMAGINE A MUSIC VIDEO teaching kids that bombs are more precious than children. This is not fantasy - this is the message of an actual Hamas TV music video. After a five-year-old finds out that her mother wore a bomb belt to a suicide terror attack, she sings: "Now I know what was more precious than us." She then swears to follow in her mother's footsteps, as a suicide bomber.

This is just one example of the wide range of hateful and abusive messages on Hamas TV, designed to indoctrinate children to Hamas values. Children are taught to value violence, hatred and Islamic supremacy, and that seeking Martyrdom for Allah is the highest value, bringing "honor and glory."

PMW has created a five-minute compilation of key representative segments from Hamas TV that document this indoctrination of children.

In addition to the video featuring the daughter of a suicide bomber, this collection includes a music video depicting a boy's transition from childhood to adulthood, climaxing in his heroic Martyrdom death; a puppet show promising world Islamic supremacy, death of infidels and the conversion of the White House into a mosque; and a talk show segment featuring kindergarten kids marching in military formation, brandishing weapons and calling for Jihad and Martyrdom.

Also included are statements by Hillary Clinton from her news conference with PMW in the US Senate, where she criticized Palestinian schoolbooks and television that "profoundly poison the minds of these children."

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