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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:04 PM
Original message
Jordan's king urges Israel to stop persecuting Palestinians
AMMAN, Nov. 29 (Xinhua) -- Jordan's King Abdullah II urged Israel to stop expansion of settlements, open border crossings, and lift restrictions on Palestinians' movement, the official news agency Petra reported on Saturday.

These actions, he said, will increase the suffering of the Palestinian people and hinder the achievement of tangible progress in the peace process between Palestinians and Israelis.

The king stressed that the Palestinian-Israeli issue is the core of conflicts in the Middle East, and solving this problem on the basis of the two-state solution is a prerequisite to achieve security and stability in the whole region.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-11/30/content_10...
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, that's rich.
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 11:24 PM by Truth2Tell
While I agree wholeheartedly that Israel should stop persecuting Palestinians, it's just a tad hypocritical for Abdullah II to say a damn thing about it.

edit link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Huh? How on earth is it hypocritical? n/t
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Because Jordan has been no friend
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 11:38 PM by Truth2Tell
of the Palestinians. They have a lot of history to address before they lecture anyone else. Palestinians are still treated as second class citizens in Jordan and in many cases still live in unmitigated squalor behind barbed wire to keep them away from the decent Jordanian arabs. The U.S. has been complicit in this for 55 years incidentally.

Edit to add: Here's some slightly more recent info:

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/publisher,IRBC,,JOR,46fa5...

Let me also make very clear that I am not suggesting that the severity of treatment in Jordan in any way matches the atrocities committed by Israel.

I also think that Jordan's U.S. puppet regime threw the Palestinians under the bus at Camp David, but that's a whole tangential can of worms.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I think yr missing a fair bit there...
Jordan is one country where Palestinian refugees can and have led successful lives and have been uniformly granted citizenship. The Queen consort is a daughter of Palestinian parents. Palestinians have risen to high ranks in the Jordanian govt...

Now back to what you said about the current king having no right to speak out because of what his father did. There was a thread here recently where that sort of blaming the children for the actions and words of the parents thinking was roundly condemned, and rightly so. It' no different in this case...
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. They are not universally granted citizenship...
see my link above.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I said *uniformly* not *universally*... n/t
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Well then the word doesn't support your point.
The fact is that over 150,000 Gaza Palestinians have lived in Jordan since 1967. None of these have been granted citizenship, even after 40 years, and most are literally forced to live in squalid refugee camps and not permitted to travel or seek normal lives among the people of Jordan. Tens of thousands of children have been born and lived their entire lives in these "temporary" camps. It's been a human rights disaster. It gets overshadowed by by the abuse of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis - and it's touchy because the ME street so strongly opposes Israel - but that's no reason to deny the problem. And it's not just Abdullah II's father - the situation continues to this day under his leadership.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Of course it does...
You do realise that around half the population of Jordan is Palestinian and the vast majority of those have full Jordanian citizenship? It's just that you appear to be stating the complete opposite in yr posts, even though the thing you linked to said that very clearly....
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. You are absolutely right
I also read the report and it occured to me that Palestinians in Jordan have better lives than Palestinians anywhere else in the ME, and yes there are 150,000 from Gaza who ate not allowed citizenship this out of 1,827,000 Palestinians in Jordan a small percentage and even these people I would wager have better lives than they would in Gaza at this point in time.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. So is that the standard?
Better lives than in Gaza? The reason the other 1/2 of Palestinians don't have citizenship, even after 40 years, is because the ruling class in Jordan would lose power if they gave them equal rights. Instead they are abused, by any rational standard of human rights or human behavior.

Why the apologetics around here for a dictatorial human rights-abusing American puppet King? Weird.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. It's not a good standard, but it's true....
The reason the other 1/2 of Palestinians don't have citizenship, even after 40 years...

You were talking about 150,000 Gazans. How is that 1/2 of Palestinians not having citizenship?
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. My Bad. That was a misstatement. However,
it doesn't change the correctness of my point. It's not like the treatment is OK just because it's *only* 150,000 people - more like 200,000 actually. And the Palestinian citizens of Jordan also face discrimination in many ways. So I stand by the assertion that Abdullah II shouldn't throw stones in his glass house.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. The "Progressives" on I/P excuse human rights abuses in all the Arab countries
It is a noticeable double standard.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. That's not true at all and being a "progressive" you'd know it. n/t

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. of course they do
it's because these faux progressives don't expect Arab countries to treat their citizens any better than Israel treats the Palestinians. Why hold Arab nations to the same standards as Israel? This is called the racism of low expectations...expect nothing, get nothing in return (great plan).

Israel is held to a standard; but not the Arab countries, who accuse Israel of not holding to a standard they themselves would never try to attain or maintain. They use the human rights/oppression card only to attack....never intended to use on themselves or other regressive countries (blame Israel, look over there and not here...).

Pure hypocrisy by all.

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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. The faux progressives ought to explain why this is
I have always wondered how they can protect evil, repressive regimes that treat people horribly.

And yet in Israel, where Arabs have the best standard of living in the entire middle east, there is finger pointing, accusations, blame, etc. of human rights abuse.

Arabs have said they would never leave Israel for a new Palestinian state.

Jordanians treat Palestinians in camps far WORSE than Israelis treat Palestinians in the OT.

Double standards, hypocrisy and nonsense from the faux progressives, who hate Israel more than they care about human rights.

For shame.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I have to disagree with you
that Israel treats Palestinians in the OT better than the Jordanians do in refugee camps. Lets not get carried away. I don't see the Jordanians conducting targeted killings of political leaders, or closing off the camps to journalists.

Another point: I happen to believe the state of the ex-pat Palestinians is deliberately maintained by the U.S puppet Arab regimes in order to limit their political power. The whole arrangement serves the interests of Israel ultimately.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. what about black september?
When the Palestinians formed their own military within Jordan and attempted to claim part of it for themselves... probably the closest thing to the IP conflict to ever occur in Jordan. When confronted by Palestinian militarism and terrorism within his own state Hussein reacted somewhat more severely than the Israelis ever have. His army rolled in and mushed them. Thousands were killed within 11 days. Tens of thousands by the end of the month. Then there was the expulsion of the entire Palestinian leadership and all of its fighters.

September 1970 is known as the Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود ;) in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events." It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash the autonomy of Palestinian organizations and restore the his monarchy's rule over the country.<2> The violence resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people, the vast majority Palestinian.<1> Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the PLO and thousands of Palestinian fighters to Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. I disagree here
The UN perhaps; but not all progressives on DU.

Many progressives oppose human rights abuses everywhere.

There is certainly too much exceptionalism and bogeynation-creation in the world; but it's not the province of progressives.

The problem does exist on the progressive side, but it's not universal. I do agree that there are mirror-image-ists on the progressive side, who reverse the Bushie division of the world into Friends and Foes, and consider that all allies of the US are Bad, and all enemies of the US are Good. Also, some anti-war progressives are regrettably prepared to team up with anti-war isolationists, who are often right-libertarian, xenophobic and at times frankly antisemitic - and some of these do regard Israeli abuses as worse than anyone else's abuses.

But there are other double standards with regard to the Middle East; e.g. the Right's willingness to (rightly) condemn human rights abuses in Iran, while at the same time ignoring those in Saudi Arabia.

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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Certainly not all progressives do this
but enough do to call attention to the hypocrisy.

People should at least be consistent.

Don't claim to be a progressive, ever concerned about human rights, and turn ones back when the abuses don't fit into the political ideology.

If one cares about human rights, then the massive issues in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Gaza, all over Africa and South east Asia should be of grave concern.

Mostly, I see people screaming about Israel, where Arabs have a better standard of living than in any of the aforementioned areas.

Right wingers don't claim to care about human rights, so in some ways, their lack of consistency is more in line.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. That's advice you should take!
Don't claim to be a progressive, ever concerned about human rights, and turn ones back when the abuses don't fit into the political ideology.

Definately a Pot, Kettle, Black moment happening there!
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
23. " The "Progressives" on I/P excuse human rights abuses in all the Arab countries"
Well, obviously I don't. So I wouldn't use such a broad brush.

I don't happen to know who is who here in I/P because I rarely visit, but trust me, if you are an apologist for the terrorist state of Israel you are no friend of mine.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Ah, but you aren't yet aware of the special definition of human rights that exists in this forum...
Israelis have them. Palestinians don't. But if a Palestinian is killed or mistreated by Palestinians, then they're promoted to having human rights for that specific incident only....
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. It doesn't surprise me that is the standard here
which is part of why I rarely visit. I still think that as advocates for Palestinian justice and for a more even-handed American policy (which I assume you also are), we should be careful not to engage in any of the same type of double standards that the Israeli apologists typically engage in.

And despite Camp David, the pro-U.S. Arab puppet dictatorships are no friends to Palestine and no friends of lasting peace.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. it's called hypocrisy
Edited on Mon Dec-01-08 09:44 AM by shira
Jordan's King calls for better conditions for the Palestinians, however, there are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians living under horrendous "ghetto" conditions (a human rights tragedy - worse than Israel) within his kingdom and elsewhere throughout the Arab world.

As for living conditions of Palestinians in Jordan, they are not and have never been better than what the Paletsinians of the OT had under Israeli occupation prior to Intifada 2. The Palestinians of the OT had a FAR BETTER economical, health, and educational situation than in Jordan. There simply is no comparison. When you factor in Israel's attempt at the "build your own home" program of the 1970's, it's obvious Israel has tried treating Palestinians better than Jordan, despite the conditions of the occupation.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. So thirty years ago maybe
Palestinians had it better under a military occupation but how about right now as of this minute? And oh ya that build a home program seem to little mention of it on web with the exception of Camera's site

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=52&...

this "program" was from 1977 amd things have changed a bit have they not, Camera's article is from August of 2005 at a time when Israel still occupying Gaza

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. i don't know what kind of points you tried to make
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 07:07 PM by shira
in that last post......so what if this was 30 years ago, do you agree that until Intifada 2 just 8 years ago, that the standard of living for Palestinians was in general significantly better than that of arabs in the surrounding region? Economically, educationally, healthwise, etc..? Compare to the economical, educational, and healthcare standards of arabs generally in Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc....and who had it better up til 8 years ago? Palestinians or the arabs outside I/P? Simple question.

If you doubt the "program" about build-your-own-home existed, check out the UNGA resolutions....what do you think they pertain to if not this program?

Lastly....if you could have made the decision yourself, would you have agreed to Israel's initiative to proceed with this build-your-own-home program of 30 years ago?
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Because Jordan hasn't been wonderful to the Palestinians either...
Edited on Mon Dec-01-08 11:47 AM by LeftishBrit
didn't consider establishing a state for them when they were the 'occupiers'; kicked out many Palestinians in the 1970s; etc. To this day, many Palestinian refugees in Jordan live under bad conditions.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. What rights don't Jordanian Palestinians have that Israeli-Arabs do?
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 05:58 AM by Violet_Crumble
Citizenship? The right to vote? Aren't those two things the mainstays of the arguments of more than a few posters here that Israeli-Arabs have it really good in Israel?

When you talk about kicking out many Palestinians in the 1970's, are you referring to Black September?* You do realise that Black September involved a situation where there was a very real threat to the government of Jordan, and that it was the PLO that was expelled?

Here's some information from UNRWA which is much more reliable than opinions of posters in this thread. I'll bold the most relevant parts...

Ten official Palestine refugee camps are located in Jordan. They accommodate 329,150 registered refugees, or 16 per cent of the 1.7 million refugees registered with UNRWA in Jordan. Four of the camps were set up on the east bank of the Jordan River after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and six after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war. In addition, there are three neighbourhoods in Amman, Zarqa and Madaba which are considered camps by the Government of Jordan, and "unofficial" camps by UNRWA. The population of the ten camps, the three "unofficial" camps and the refugees residing in the vicinity of camps live under similar socio-economic conditions and together make up an estimated 65 per cent of the Palestine refugees in Jordan.

In 1948, an estimated 100,000 refugees crossed the Jordan River and initially took shelter in temporary camps, in mosques and schools, or in towns and villages. International organizations, mainly the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), provided emergency assistance for the refugees until May 1950 when UNRWA started its operations.

The first camp, Zarqa, was set up in 1949 by the ICRC, where a large number of the refugees had gathered near the town of Zarqa, some 25 kilometers north east of Amman. Between 1951-1954 three more camps were set up; two in the Amman area and one in Irbid, north Jordan.

The refugees were accommodated in tents until the late 1950s when UNRWA replaced the tents with more durable shelters. Each new shelter was a brick room with asbestos roofing. A family of 4-5 members had one room of 12 square metres, and a family of 6-8 had two rooms on a plot of land not exceeding 80-100 square metres. The refugees were able to construct additional rooms as the family grew by birth and marriage. However, with the fourth generation of refugees now becoming adults, the shelters and surrounding plots of land have become fully utilized as living space so that the camps today are highly congested and overcrowded.

Many of the camps are now surrounded by residential areas as a result of the growth in the Jordanian population and the subsequent development of the towns and cities. The camps have developed into quarters resembling the neighbourhoods around them due to the refugees themselves who have worked hard to improve their conditions and to the Government of Jordan, which has invested large amounts of funds to provide the camps with basic infrastructure.

In 1967 following the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip there was another influx of refugees into Jordan. Some 140,000 persons, already registered refugees with UNRWA, were part of the new exodus together with about 240,000 citizens of the West Bank who are referred to as "displaced persons" (the West Bank was administered by Jordan between 1948-1967). These new refugees took shelter in temporary camps in the Jordan Valley. When military operations escalated in the area they had to be moved to safer areas elsewhere in Jordan. In early 1968, six tented "emergency" camps were established for these refugees and displaced persons. UNRWA later replaced the tents with pre-fabricated shelters and the refugees themselves have now replaced the prefabs with concrete structures. Although there has been enormous improvements in the " 1967 emergency" camps over the years, they remain less developed than those established in the 1950s. Some of them lack basic infrastructure and public services, especially the camps in remote areas.

UNRWA coordinates with the Jordanian government's Department of Palestinian Affairs (DPA) as well as with the camps' improvement committees. Members of these committees are selected by the DPA from amongst community leaders and refugee notables who in effect take on the role of municipal councils.

The infrastructure of the camps is primarily the responsibility of the host government. However, UNRWA's sanitation and technical departments work hand-in-hand with the DPA and camp committees to help improve roads, pathways and drainage.

All Palestine refugees registered with UNRWA in Jordan, whether they live in camps or outside camps, are eligible for UNRWA services. However, those living in or near camps, generally the poorest of the refugees, have easier access to Agency services.

All Palestine refugees in Jordan have full Jordanian citizenship with the exception of about 120,000 refugees originally from the Gaza Strip, which up to 1967 was administered by Egypt. They are eligible for temporary Jordanian passports, which do not entitle them to full citizenship rights such as the right to vote and employment with the government.

UNRWA Headquarters Amman and the UNRWA Jordan Field Office are both located in Amman.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/jordan.html






*btw, do you agree with the initial post that blames the current king for the action of his father?
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Black September
went a bit further than just kicking out the PLO. It involved thousands of Palestinian deaths (some estimates I've seen reach 14 thousand or even higher, though I don't consider the later reliable)*; it's unlikely all or even most of them were PLO members.

*Besides Jordanian deaths, obviously
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. If that was true, doesn't that basically describe many of Israel's incursions against Palestinians?
n/t
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. It dwarfs them
If the higher end numbers are correct, you're talking several times more deaths in a matter of months than those inflicted by Israel over the past decade.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. You tell me.
When has Israel ever rolled in to the OPT and killed several thousand people within a week-and-a-half?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-03-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. Imagine the hew and cry is Israel ever attempted anything of the sort?
It seems that only Arabs are allowed to murder each other at an alarming rate (and continue to, to this day, in sectarian violence and suicide bombings).

We are supposed to turn the other way. Nothing to see here!

But if Israel protects itself at a border crossing from potential suicide bombers (blowing up their own aid), it is the worst, most evil country in the world.

Talk about exhausting cognitive dissonance!
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. I'm not saying that Israel's a model of how to treat Palestinians and Jordan isn't...
I'm saying that neither is. So that either one preaching to the other on the subject would be a bit hypocritical.

I don't blame the current king for the actions of his father. But Jordan isn't perfect toward Palestinians even now.

'You do realise that Black September involved a situation where there was a very real threat to the government of Jordan,'

Israeli violence toward Palestinians is ALSO defended on the grounds of 'threat'. You can't justify it in one case and not the other.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. But the hypocrisy that defines the I/P conflict predicts that one can ALWAYS justify
criticism of Israel on the same grounds that an action is excused in an Arab country.
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