Obama better for Israel

[oberliner]

Israel needs active US peace-making involvement, not empty expressions of solidarity

More than the typical US presidential campaign, the question of which of the two key contenders would be a better friend of Israel has been the subject of intense debate this year. As a Jew and a Zionist, I would not vote for a candidate whom I suspected would do harm to Israel. However, Israel is not the only issue I consider when voting. As a US citizen, I vote for the candidate whom I believe would be best for America.

<snip>

Obama’s agenda likely to yield better results

Contrasting himself with President Bush, Obama has pledged to “take an active role and make a personal commitment to do all I can to advance the cause of peace from the start of my administration.” Obama’s team of Mideast advisers includes former Mideast peace coordinator Dennis Ross, former Ambassador to Israel Dan Kurtzer, and Dan Shapiro, a former National Security Council official. These individuals have impeccable pro-Israel credentials, are longtime supporters of US engagement in Arab-Israeli peacemaking, and will likely have important roles in an Obama administration.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3616797,00.html

[Kurska]

1. Friends of Israel are not enough

We need friends of Palestine and those need to come from the arab world. America and Israel needs to sit down at the table with all neighboring countries, plus Saudi arabia and turkey. Any agreement needs to be made with the mutual understanding that Friends of Israel will hold israel accountable for it's promises and friends of Palestine will hold Palestine accountable for it's promises. I pray that Obama understands that and abandons the failed bush doctrine of one on one talks, even if america is there to hold the hand of both parties.

[bemildred]

2. There will be no peace unless everyone gets a chance at a decent life.

That includes security for Israelis and Jews, but it also includes security for Palestinians. You can go on like this as long as you want, but if you want to change it, you are going to have to REALLY change it. That is what Rabin understood.

[Kurska]

3. What is a decent life?

What exactly do you think needs to change to bring that about?

[bemildred]

4. I dunno, it's kind of a mystery.

Like smut. You know it when you see it.

[Kurska]

5. How about vastly increased economic aid to the west bank

Tied to specific deadlines and goals that must be met or the funding starts decreasing on the margins directly related to how well the PA does at keeping paramilitary and extremist operations down? Do you think that would help achieve a better standard of living?

[bemildred]

6. Well ....

1.) You gotta have aid, starving people don't make good citizens.
2.) You gotta have an effective Palestinian political system. (Effective here means it serves the needs of the Palestinian people.) One would hope it's not corrupt too, but corrupt and effective would work, if that's possible. And to be fair, the Israeli political system is like swiss cheese too.
3.) The problem is, as things lie now, an effective Palestinian political system is going to challenge Israeli political taboos, so you gotta resolve those too, or you won't have Israeli cooperation with the new, effective Palestinian political system.
4.) So you have to have a resolution of the political issues.
5.) So you gotta change Israeli politics too.
6.) So you have to have carrots for the Israelis too, and sticks for the Israeli fundie-nuts, just like the Palestinian fundie-nuts.
7.) So somebody is going to have to a.) guarantee security for everybody, and b.) bash a few heads on both sides, and c.) support political change with money and threats.

This is just an outline ...

[azurnoir]

7. more than aid for Palestinians

they must be allowed full economic development, including the natural gas deposits off the coast of Gaza, with out these things, without hope for their future any other efforts are for naught.

[bemildred]

8. It seems to me I specified a good deal more than aid.

Not that you are wrong. The Palestinians must be free and sovereign.
:hi:

[azurnoir]

14. You did that is why I answered the way I did

you covered the political end very well, my point was that as long as Palestinians are economically stunted and therefore hopeless all the sovereignty on earth will not bring peace.

[Kurska]

9. This is obviously a great idea

As long as each economic step is meet with a equivalent political one, I see no reason why palestine shouldn't be allowed to both develop it's natural resources and expand it's physical and human capital.

However, you can't seriously expect Israel to allow a people to basically rearm economically if that people is no less able or likely to attack it then when it was is dire economic condition.

Basically do you think economic aid should be a reward for political progress or that political progress can only be made after economic aid?

[Crunchy Frog]

12. In general, it seems to me that people under dire economic circumstances

tend to behave rather worse than people under somewhat better economic conditions with hope of improving their situation thruough their own work and playing by the rules.

Maybe Palestinians differ from the rest of humanity in that respect. :shrug:

[Vegasaurus]

13. The Palestinians have been given tons of aid

more than any other refugee groupin history.

They were left intact greenhouses in Gaza and have been encouraged through education.

Why have none of the efforts to improve their economic conditions been successful? It is not by lack of effort of the world community, and Israel.

[Vegasaurus]

10. What would constitute an effective Palestinian political system?

There were "free and fair" democratic elections.

The Palestinians chose a terrorist group, Hamas, as their leadership.

This is their political system, and it has made the Palestinians' lives much more miserable.

What different kind of political system would you like to impose? This was the one the Palestinians selected.

[bemildred]

11. That's a rhetorical question, isn't it?

And where did you get the idea that I want to impose anything? I pointed out that there will be no peace while the Palestinians remain oppressed. A sound point that, I thought. He offered his notion of how one might proceed towards some remedy for the situation, and I attempted to put that in a context that I thought might lead to some sort of progress (towards peace).

But far be it from me to impose anything on anyone.

Did you have any views of your own on the subject? Or do you think it's just hopeless, so we ought not bother to discuss it?

[Vegasaurus]

15. I think it is pretty hopeless

I think we should discuss the situation, but I do not see any possibility for peace anytime soon, at least not with the current governments of hardliners.