Gaza kids 'training to kill Jews'

[oberliner]

The armed Palestinian groups in Gaza have recently stepped up their military training amid what they refer to as the threat of a wide-scale Israeli operation in the Strip.

In this framework dozens of children have undergone training in the past few days by gunmen from the Salah al-Din Brigades, the armed wing of the Popular Resistance Committees. The training included firing pistols and rifles.

"I am learning how to fight the Jews and kill Jewish children," 11-year-old Muhammad told Ynet, "the parents of the Jewish children are the soldiers and officers who kill us here. I want these parents to get a taste of what it's like to have your children killed, just as the Palestinians experience every day.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3589842,00.html

[ensho]

1. and Israelis train to kill them - what's the difference

nt

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aquart]

3. Sorry. The hatred is pretty evenly matched.

My cousin was in the Israeli army. He is a very well-trained killing machine. And he truly doesn't believe arabs are human. Neither does his mother.

No, we don't send our kids out to kill at 11. But that doesn't mean the hatred isn't there.

What did anyone think would be the result of bombing buses, markets, restaurants...?

[Phx_Dem]

6. You know that because of your cousin?

really dude, your smarter than that.

[LeftishBrit]

7. There is hate on both sides of any war..

but there IS a real difference between the military training of adults, and trying to teach 11-year-olds that it's good to kill Jews or Israelis or any group if it comes to that. Firstly, adults are more capable of deciding things for themselves, and less readily influenced by adults; secondly, encouraging hate for the 'enemy' in 11-year-olds is basically sending the message that this enmity is permanant and the children and the world must not expect things ever to change.

They are wrong. Things will change. But corrupting children into the old, violent ways will retard these changes.

[ensho]

4. I resent you calling me a Jew hater

wash out your dirty mouth

[JonQ]

5. Major difference

between training to kill enemies in a war, whoever they may be, and training to kill specifically one group of people, especially targeting their children. I don't think the IDF has classes teaching soldiers to target palestinian children, even though some here may claim otherwise.

[azurnoir]

8. Nice parse attempt

so just who are IDF training to kill, the Japanese? Or is your statement that only one side has a legitimate reason for war, I mean a siege or blockade is hardly reason right, well unless it's 1967 and it's Israel who's being blockaded.
No IDF is not trained to target children and babies they IMO just don't give a sh*t, if its Palestinian and in range it's dead no matter how young or old.

[JonQ]

9. Yes, if a palestinian is in range, no matter what, he is a dead man

or woman, or child. That is why, with overwhelming military force, and a span of over 60 years, the Israelis have succeeded at . . . significantly increasing the population of Palestinians in their territory and raising their material standard of living.

Hmm, they may need to rethink their efforts at genocide, clearly things aren't going well for them.

[Vegasaurus]

10. It's the only "genocide"

where the population actually grows 30% in ten years!

In other genocides, real ones, the population actually decreases, not increases.

But yet, Israel will still be accused of 'genocide' because it is a JEWISH nation.

[azurnoir]

13. Except I did not say genocide n/t

[JonQ]

14. No, you said

"if its Palestinian and in range it's dead no matter how young or old."

The Israelis have been doing patrols of palestine for for what, 50 years? If your statement were true, and their soldiers were shooting every palestinian, man woman or child, that "came in range" then the death toll would be horrific by now. I suspect you realize that you're guilty of more than a little hyperbole.

[azurnoir]

20. The only hyperbole is your own

willful miss interpetation of my statement another tired tactic. However if you want to believe that go ahead but BTW it's 40 years.

[azurnoir]

12. HMMM nice attempt again but stiill falls flat

No Israel does not need to commit genocide to get the point across,besides it would be so obvious and really hard for some to parse, no better to squeeze them slowly, crowd them, cut off economic growth, all of course in the name of security.

[JonQ]

15. I suppose

you must be absolutely enraged by the arab states that refused to allow any palestinian refugees to flee in to their territories following the various wars they initiated with Israel. Surely you aren't selective in your outrage.

[azurnoir]

19. Geez another tired old excuse?

Its other Arabs fault nope not gonna' work either, been rehashed a thousand times here.
But thank you for so illustrating the pro-statusquo, pro-occupation stance

[JonQ]

25. Not going to work eh?

Well since you said that I guess it won't, you are the final authority on the subject. Completely ignore history, ignore that arab states have been doing exactly what you accuse the Israelis of doing, and yet you don't seem to mind. You said it won't work, and you're right. As long as you refuse to acknowledge facts then nothing I say will "work" with you. Touche.

[Dick Dastardly]

17. Until the Intifada, terror and rocket attacks

the Palestinian economy and standard of living was growing.
It seams you are saying that Israel should do nothing to defend itself from Palestinian terror and rockets if it causes any hardship on them. Israel should just accept being attacked

[azurnoir]

18. you are saying that Israel should do nothing to defend itself from Palestinian terror

Come up with something new, that has been so worn out by another poster.

And oh yeah the Palestinian economy was growing more and more Israeli's were hiring them as menial labour, poor Israeli's had to resort to Africans:sarcasm:

[Dick Dastardly]

21. Then stop saying or alluding to it and it wont be said again

The Palestinian economy and standard of living improved greatly under Israel contrary to your claims that Israels policy was to destroy it

For nearly 30 years, Israel permitted thousands of Palestinians to enter the country each day to work in construction, agriculture and other blue-collar jobs. The Israelis got cheap labor, and the Palestinians earned significantly more than they would at home. Until the mid-1990s, up to 150,000 people -- about a fifth of the Palestinian labor force -- entered Israel each day. After Palestinians unleashed a wave of suicide bombings, the idea of separation from the Palestinians became popular in Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories



The PA’s Economic Situation


After the Oslo accords, the Palestinian economy entered a steady growth path. Palestinian GDP grew at an average rate of 8% annually between 1995-2000, reaching US$4,512 million by 1999.
Palestinian employment also improved. Unemployment declined to 11.8% in 1999, compared with 23.8% in 1996. The median net wage peaked at US$17.3 daily in 1999, compared with US$11.5 in 1996.
With the eruption of the Second Intifada (2000) and the subsequent border closings, the Palestinian economic situation deteriorated. Election of the Hamas government in 2006 worsened the situation as direct aid was cut off.
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:A71P49gUeDgJ:www.macro.org.il/lib/File/Amman%252018_1_2008-n2-z1.ppt+palestinian+economy&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=25&gl=us



--"Private consumption per capita rose during 1969-1986 at an overall rate of 5% per annum."

-- Outside of regugee camps in Gaza (which Israel wanted to replace with permanent housing, but was prevented so as not to help solve the "refugee crisis" that provided the PLO's reason for existence), "in 1986, 95% of the Households in Gaza had running water and 100% had electricity (compared with 3 percent for water and 14% for electricity in 1974)."

--The percentage individual "with at least 9 years of education has risen from 22% in 1970 to 46% in 1986 in the West Bank, and from 32% to 54% in the Gaza Strip during the same period." Not noted in the paper I'm citing, all of the universities in the West Bank and Gaza were opened during the Israeli administration of the territories. There were none before that.





http://www.house.gov/jec/hearings/israel/einhorn.htm

I have plenty of other sources to back up what I say. Do you have any to back up your claim?

[azurnoir]

22. Well thank you for proudly proclaiming

how well collective punishment has worked and that efforts of Israel to stunt Palestinian economic growth have been equally successful

And if I do not believe it is a okay for IDF to shoot a 3 week old or a 70 year old women I am saying Israel can not defend it self? Speaks volumes in it self.

[Dick Dastardly]

23. In other words you have nothing to back up your claims and cant

refute the evidence I presented so you just resort to more baseless claims and hyperbole.


It would behoove you to try to make an attempt at a fact based debate rather than this.

[azurnoir]

24. That makes twice you've fallen for it

sometimes I do not give links to "certain" posters on purpose because they will shrilly proclaim your lying even though they know it to true. one actually admitted that

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9375.shtml

http://www.imemc.org/article/53412

[Dick Dastardly]

28. oh please....I have fallen for nothing, . Your tactics and desperation are made even more obvious

Whether or not that claim was true is meaningless and not the point, it was more diverionary tactics by you. You did not back up your original claim or refute mine. It is truly pathetic


You originally claimed this

No Israel does not need to commit genocide to get the point across,besides it would be so obvious and really hard for some to parse, no better to squeeze them slowly, crowd them, cut off economic growth, all of course in the name of security.

I gave you reputable facts that showed that the Palestinians standard of living increased dramatically under Israel until they started their terror war to which Israel had to defend themselves.

You come up with more hyperbole and diversion and when I point it out you give me links to a couple of ridiculous sites like Electronic Intifada as some sort of proof of your shifting claims. The one site even said that the target was a leader in the Islamic Jihad. How does that show that they did not have economic growth until they launched a terror war? How does that show any of your claims. Yes unfortunatly innocent people die in conflicts but that does not mean that it is wrong or that you are not allowed to defend yourself. I am sure there are plenty of similar examples from any conflict in history.

[azurnoir]

29. LOL

I gave you credit for the economic report collective punishment and economic cut off are working I never said that conditions have improved now have I? It is just you seem to applaud this collective punishment and I do not. Your posts only back that up.

edited to add: I said that Palestinians were allowed to be menial laborers in Israel prior to the second Intifada, their economic condition was not that good in the first place, unless menial labor in Israel pays better than in most places.

Another fact that is interesting when it comes to Israeli Arabs and economic conditions
Now can we agree that Israeli Arabs comprise 20% of Israel's total population?

the percentage of Israeli's living below the poverty line

Population below poverty line:

21.6%
note: Israel's poverty line is $7.30 per person per day (20

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#Econ

Now that does not mean every Israeli Arab is impoverished but I would bet they are "lions share"

[JonQ]

26. You're in charge of Israel

hypothetically, and the Palestinians launch an intifada against your country, indiscriminately firing rockets in to residential areas. What do you do?

Any sort of retaliation is of course out of order, that would make you a fascist, and they've stated their goal is to drive your people in to the sea (read genocide) and they won't accept any peace short of that. Your game, now go . . .

[azurnoir]

27. That assumes that the Intifada's

happened in a vacuum, which they did not. The best thing IMO for Israel to do would be to withdraw to 1967 lines allow a corridor between Gaza and the West Bank and unblockade Gaza's air space and water ways and allow the development of NG resources, then if there are still terror attacks we'll talk.

[JonQ]

30. History lesson

in 1967, prior to the Israeli "genocide" of the palestinians their neighbors without provocation decided to place an armed embargo on Israel. In 1992 the Israelis decided to give the palestinians self-rule, in response they launched an intifada. In 2006 the Israelis began a unilateral withdrawl from Gaza, in response hezbollah launched rockets in to civilian areas of Israel.

All these previous attempts to trade land for peace failed. Why do you suppose a new one would succeed?

Besides, these kids aren't being trained to fight for palestines independence, they're being trained to kill jews.

And can I take it from your response that when faced with attack you would surrender?

[azurnoir]

31. History lesson?

Been there done that too, but if you insist-Israels basis for war in 1967 was that Egypt blockaded the Strait of Tiran there by shutting off the port Eilat and there by blockading a whopping 5% or so of Israels trade.
Now going by those standards one would think that some posters would be more understanding of the situation in Gaza, where Israel has an also well armed blockade in place there by cutting off 100% of any trade or ocean commerce in Gaza.

[Vegasaurus]

33. Gaza is ruled by armed men and a terror group

I would have much more sympathy for the Gazans if they did not have a leadership intent on annihilating another country.

They have brought on much of their own misery, and I have very good understanding of that.

[azurnoir]

36. Yes you are incredibly "understandable"

thanks again

[JonQ]

34. So Egypt, Syria, and Jordan

responded to daily Israeli terrorist strikes against their civilians with a blockade? Because unless Israelis were lining up to suicide bomb those countries then you don't really have a valid comparison.

Again I'll ask, what, besides sitting idly by and watching more jews die, should Israel do about constant palestinian terrorism? Not a wall, not military intervention, not checkpoints, not rooting out and killing terrorists, so what? And remember, you're dealing with people who say things like this:

"We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion... We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem"
-Yasser Arafat (one of the moderates)

[azurnoir]

37. Don't quite get your point here

are you claiming that Jordan, Syria, and Egypt were attacking Israel on a daily basis in 1967? Or in the present day? and then vet it with a Palestinain quote from a a man who has been dead for 5 years and also signed a pact that renounced terrorism although Fatah the party Israel is presently negotiating with, has not changed its website to reflect that?

My assessment of what Israel needs to do is in the present tense, you know the one where Israel has treaties with Egypt and Jordan, is in talks with Syria, has a a fragile cease fire with Hamas and is negotiating with Fatah.

But once again you need to concentrate on past wrongs to justify the present situation which apparently you wish to see continued.

You are pretty new(?) so I am not sure if you are disingenuous or just ignorant of actual history

[JonQ]

38. My point

you compared the unprovoked embargo against Israel of 1967 to the very provoked measures taken by the Israels of today against Palestine. The two situations are very different. And I included the arafat quote to show that even the moderates that everyone is/was counting on to bring peace from the palestinian side are pushing some pretty extreme rhetoric. Sorry, but if your moderates are vowing to exterminate their enemies I don't have much hope for a peaceful resolution.

"My assessment of what Israel needs to do is in the present tense, you know the one where Israel has treaties with Egypt and Jordan, is in talks with Syria, has a a fragile cease fire with Hamas and is negotiating with Fatah."

Is it? I've asked you several times what you'd do and you listed a bunch of things Israel shouldn't have done in the 60s. Maybe your definition of current and mine are different. So I'll be more specific: what, in 2008, would you, as a hypothetical leader of Israel, do about the constant terror attacks, considering that anything remotely militant is out of the question?

"But once again you need to concentrate on past wrongs to justify the present situation which apparently you wish to see continued."

Nope, I was contradicting your analogy.

"You are pretty new(?) so I am not sure if you are disingenuous or just ignorant of actual history"

Neither.

[azurnoir]

40. I said nothing about what Israel should have done

in the '60's and I listed what I thought should happen now and what Israel is doing now, you ignore what is happening in favor of the past.
As a present day leader I would change couple of things stop the settlement building and I would not have handed Kuntar over to Hezbollah.

[azurnoir]

32. More history for you

Israel withdrew from Gaza in September of 2005, Hezbollah had been sporadically launching rockets since 2000 when Israel withdrew from Lebanon, IMO the reason that Israel waited until 2006 was that until 2005 Syria had troops on the ground in Lebanon and the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers.

As to land trades, yes they have failed, as they should as they are a blatant attempt to create a "piecemeal" and non-viable Palestinain state.

Palestinian children training to kill Jews? Tell me now what Jews do the children in Gaza come in contact with other than IDF or Shin Bet? who are hardly ambassadors of goodwill and who are there to kill if not them, then their families. their neighbors, their friends? These kids do not need a camp to learn to hate Jews who in this case would translate into Israeli's, they learn it on an almost daily basis just by being alive

As to your last statement are you saying that anything other than maintaining the occupation equates to surrender?

[JonQ]

35. A piecemeal state

is more than they would offer the Israelis. Sorry but if you are ever offered 94% of what you ask for you don't respond by killing the guy who offered it to you, that's just poor manners.

And they only come in contact with jews serving in the IDF? Then why specify killing children? How many IDF soldiers hang out in schools, discos, cafes, and other civilian targets hit by palestinian terrorists? I think that is what they are referring to. You don't train soldiers, intended for self-defense, to target children. You train terrorists and murderers to do that.

[azurnoir]

39. Poor manners?

However the Palestinians did make Israel an offer

The plan offered Israelis:
• The right for 80 percent of the West Bank settlers, most of whom live near the 1967 borders, to stay put.
• Security guarantees.
• Control over the Jewish sections of Jerusalem, which would be internationally recognized as the capital of Israel.
• Control over and access to Jewish holy sites in Jerusalem, including sections of the Temple Mount.

Both sides tentatively accepted the deal with reservations; some experts say Arafat later added so many conditions that the agreement fell apart. Clinton left office, and talks continued in January at an Egyptian resort.

I have also read other experts that say Ehud Barak the once and possibly future PM of Israel felt he might have more leverage once Bush took office

http://www.cfr.org/publication/7736/middle_east.html


AS to your last part you do realize that the quote you site came from a Palestinian child or do you not consider an 11 year old whom apparently you hold responsible for events that happened when he was 3 or 4 years old, a child.

[Dick Dastardly]

16. They are training to defend and defeat armies, terror roups, terrorists, rocket launchers and

anyone who is trying to attack it.

[Vegasaurus]

11. This is pathetic

why such indoctrination of the young? Why teach them to hate?

Why dress babies in fatigues and hand them a gun to tote around?

Why is the main focus of children's programming on the goal of shaheed, and the glory of killing Jews?

Why spread lies about Jews being pigs and goats, or worse, on TV, in books, camps, all aimed at children?

There are so many more productive things that the Palestinians could be teaching their children.

They could be learning new things, doing good deeds, service to others.

Instead, the focus is on murder and martyrdom.

Revolting.