To the Westerner who 'understands' the terrorist

[Phx_Dem]

To the Westerner who "understands" the terrorist:

Spare us the explanations.

Spare us the learned, sociology-drenched justifications.

Spare us the reasons why you "get" Palestinians when they gun Jews down in cold blood.

Spare us the chapter and verse on how the plight of the Palestinians is at the root of Islamic terrorism the world over, and if the Palestinians were to receive full justice, Islamic terrorism would pass from the world.

Spare us.

You may well believe, with the blind faith of the hopeful and the fear-stricken, that when these people are through with the Jews, they won't come for you.


More at:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/960745.html

[subsuelo]

1. Spare us, indeed

Same thing is being said about Israeli operations which continue to recklessly kill civilians and militants alike.

Has this writer written a word of condemnation for the massacre of Gazans last week?

Spare us, indeed. Spare us the hypocrisy.

[Vegasaurus]

6. Stop the rockets and there will be no response

Why not try something other than resistance, which hasn't succeeded in doing anything but making civilian lives more miserable.

I don't want to understand terrorists. They are sick in the head.

[subsuelo]

7. Both sides make the "stop doing this and there will be no response" claim

Hamas has claimed that the seminary killings were a "response" to Israeli aggression in Gaza.

So your argument is no different from theirs.

[pelsar]

9. it was stopped by one side......

multiple times since 1948...the "other side" simply never did stop..

history...its not hard to read about it.....nor are the motivations hard to discover, be it hizballa, hamas or israel...the actions, their intentions are very clear.

[subsuelo]

10. both sides argue they stopped, or offered ceasefires, etc

This whole thing is like dealing with children honestly.

I get this image of South-Park sounding whiny kid voices going "He did this to me first!" "No he did it!" "Well he started it!" "No he started it!"

Except of course, they're killing each other :(

[pelsar]

11. except....

only one side actually did......

[subsuelo]

12. oh please

Only one side is taking action towards solving this thing, while the other, must be entirely to blame, right?

:eyes:

It's this kind of "my side is better than your side" childishness that never ends.

[pelsar]

16. nothing here is 100%

one side or the other...but neither is it 50/50....some historical facts are clear, one just has to know them....and accept them for actually happening.

[subsuelo]

23. I agree with every statement made. nt

[azurnoir]

8. Besides if the rockets from Gaza stopped

then something from the WB would be used as justification, the fact that the latest terrorist act in Jerusalem is being simultaneously pinned on Hamas in Gaza, Arab-Israeli's, members of "militant groups" in East Jerusalem, and Palestinians who have permission to live in Israel says it all.

[pelsar]

17. oh...you really have to explain this one....

then something from the WB would be used as justification

...so if the jihadnikim in the westbank would attack...israel will then shoot at gaza?...did i get that connection correct?

[azurnoir]

28. To a degree yes you got the connection

although your example is a bit extreme, my thoughts were in the lines of if roadblocks were eased in the WB and some terrorist act happened, then I could quite easily see that being cited to keep the borders in Gaza sealed or the reverse, do you deny that some have used "we left Gaza and still the rockets come" tas a reason to keep the WB settlements in place?
So yes and no I do not see Israel shooting at Gaza because of a terrorist act in the WB, but a "tightening" of security or raids to arrest militants in Gaza yes I do see that.

[Malikshah]

20. Too true.

Spare us, Israeli columnist, from your attitude.

You and your fellow countrymen do not have a monopoly on victimhood or morality.

Spare us.

[Warpy]

2. A kid I went to high school with ended up in Black September

He survived that one and if he's still alive, he's undoubtedly spreading the poison to his grandchildren.

I think I understand the mindset as well as anyone. It's just a new hatred in a region that is awash in ancient hatreds. It isn't going to go away and I don't see any cure for it.

I just wonder that anyone calls that part of the world holy. It's spawned the least tolerant religions, the most sectarian violence, and the utmost in mutual hatreds of any piece of real estate on the planet.

[subsuelo]

3. There is a certain poison, isn't there

Hard to avoid being infected with it

[Warpy]

5. Yes, especially when the poison is being spread

in equally toxic doses by both sides.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. What are you talking about? What sectarian violence in the ME compares to the Christian in-fighting

in Europe a mere 50 years ago.

I think blanket statements such as yours are fundamentally misinformed, and I suspect, racist.

[Warpy]

21. OK, that's #2

Where did those battling religions in Europe originate?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. Rome. nt

[bperci108]

4. So, in other words...

...don't bother you with facts.

Okay. :eyes:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. Exactly. nt

[azurnoir]

13. Spare us?????

As much as leftists may try to understand the Palestinians plight, we never truly can nor can we understand or do we really want to understand Hamas, for most of us the conditions that the Palestinians live in are beyond our experience.

Now what we do understand is the propaganda machine that laughably is called the western media. The terror attack that tragically claimed the lives of 8 young men has gotten almost non-stop coverage in the 24 hours since it happened, in fact it is to point of almost over saturation, the point where many people simply hit their internal off switch. That is not a good thing either but it is a true thing IMO.

Now as for Mr Burston please spare us, please spare us your misrepresentation of facts and "artful" numbers game as here

Last week, when Israeli forces drove into Gaza, and some 120 Palestinians were killed, many of them were gunmen, but with children making up another sixth of the total, one grieving father spoke with quiet eloquence, saying "Other places in the world, when this happens, there is a great outcry. When this happens here, the world is silent. No one cares."

A number of human rights organizations including B'tselem and HRW have placed the number of non-combatant death at a bit more then half of Mr Burston's understated total. While no he does not lie he minimizes in such a way as to mis-represent

But he does not stop there

The world has grown content to let Palestinians die. The reason is not simple callousness. And it is not, as Hamas proclaims to its followers in Gaza, that the Jews control the world media and world finance, and thus Western government as well.

First the world does care, and like it or not most of us care about the death and suffering on both sides of the conflict. What struck me though was the switch off between Palestinians and Hamss it is being made more and more as to completely blur lines, the same could be said for Gazaa nd WB" There is a concerted effort I think to makes all Palestinians into a sinster "THEY" with the terrorist label stuck to them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Goddam right.

The dead kids are the tip of the iceberg. It's not about the worst offenses; it's the daily soul-crushing grind of life as a half-person.

And Israel-onlies think because they weren't passing out sweets it makes a moral difference.

[pelsar]

19. because it does...

actually celebrating the murder of children?...... attempting to blow up humanitarian aid (and then complain when it doesnt arrive), shooting missiles at cities daily...is indicative of a moral difference.

if there is one group that sees the other as "half person....i would say it would have to be hamas, celebrating the murder of kids can only be defined as seeing those same children as being less than human.

or are you now going to blame israel for their celebrations?

[subsuelo]

22. 120 Gazans were massacred this past week

Don't try to come across as if Israeli forces have any moral high ground.

Then have none over Hamas, whatsoever.

[hifalutin]

24. That is not true

20 civilians were massacred in Gaza, the other hundred were militants.

[subsuelo]

30. Oh, only 20 were massacred, well that's obviously no problem then

(Actually, human rights group BTSelem reported that roughly half were civilians, last I checked.)

[Malikshah]

34. Really? So reports that half were not combatants are all lies?

????

[pelsar]

25. yes we do...

its that simple.....letting missiles fall on our cities is immoral...shooting missiles at cities with the intent of killing as many people is possible is immoral....shooting missiles from within civilian areas is immoral

attempting to stop those missiles with imperfect weapons is not immoral....

of course there are some here, given the limited immediate options, and the limitations of technology, that actually prefer the hamas missiles NOT to be stopped.....and the israelis, 200,000+ be terrorized daily....all sanctioned by the govt in gaza.

[subsuelo]

29. The violence in I/P is nothing more than retaliations

Hamas claims "we did this in response to that"

Israeli leaders claim "we do this in response to that"

Hamas says "we cannot just sit back and let our people be killed"

Israeli leaders say "we cannot just sit back and let our people be killed"

Both sides terrorize the other, both sides kill the other.

Nobody has moral high ground in this.

[oberliner]

26. I do not believe that you can argue that killing armed militants is a massacre

Soldiers killing armed men is not generally identified as a massacre.

Of the 120 Gazans who were killed, many of them were identified as being Hamas militants.

If you believe that those who were among the 120 killed but were not militants were "massacred" then you would need to alter the "120" figure.

In any event, the fact that so many innocent people have died as a result of this conflict is very tragic.

[subsuelo]

27. I definitely agree with your last sentence

[hifalutin]

31. Me too!

At least we can agree on something!

[Violet_Crumble]

32. No, many of them weren't militants...

From B'Tselem, who has far more credibility than Bradley Burston or Israel's Chief of Staff....

Contrary to Israel's Chief of Staff, at least half of those killed in Gaza did not take part in the fighting..

B'Tselem expresses grave concern at the large number of children and other uninvolved civilians among those killed and wounded in the Gaza Strip in recent days.

According to B'Tselem figures, from 27 February to the afternoon of 3 March, 106 Palestinians were killed in the Gaza Strip. Contrary to the Chief of Staff’s contention that ninety percent were armed, at least fifty-four of the dead (twenty-five of them minors) did not take part in the hostilities. In addition, at least forty-six minors were wounded.

In response to the Defense Minister's initiative to probe the legality of firing at areas from which rockets were being fired, even if the area is populated, B'Tselem reminds the military that attacks on legitimate military targets are prohibited if they are likely to cause disproportionate harm to civilians, or to breach the duty to take caution not to harm civilians. If the military’s intention is to allow shelling of general areas or whole neighborhoods from which rockets are fired, such an attack would be indiscriminate and a grave breach of the laws of war.

Given the heavy fighting that only ended this morning, B'Tselem has not been able to conduct a thorough examination of the events. However, initial examination of a few of the many incidents in which civilians were killed raise the grave concern that the Israeli army used excessive and disproportionate force, and failed to distinguish between uninvolved civilians and Palestinians who took part in the fighting. Such attacks may constitute a breach of the laws of war.

For example:

The killing of four children – ‘Ali Dardona, age 8, Muhammad Hamudah, 9, Dardona Dardona, 12, and ‘Omer Dardona – and wounding of two others while they played soccer in the street, east of the Jabalya refugee camp on 28 February. B'Tselem’s investigation indicates that Qassam rockets may have been fired earlier about 100 meters from where the children were. However, no armed Palestinians were killed or injured in the incident.


The killing of Iyad and Jacqueline Muhammad Abu-Shabak, brother and sister, 16 and 17 years old, when they were watching the fighting from the window of their house east of Jabalya. According to testimonies by family members, the two were shot in the head and chest.


The killing of six-month-old Muhammad al-Bur’i, at the family’s home in the Rimal section of Gaza on 27 February, and the wounding of others, in the shelling of the nearby Interior Ministry building. The building is a civilian office building, and not a legitimate military target.
B'Tselem calls on all sides to the fighting, Israeli and Palestinian, to comply strictly with the law, and to do everything in their power to protect civilians who are not taking part in the fighting. Israel has the right and the obligation to protect its citizens from rocket fire, itself a war crime, but it most do so only through legal means which abide by the principles of proportionality and distinction in International Humanitarian Law.


http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20080303.asp

Now, if anyone wants to try to argue that 'many' actually means less than half of those killed, here's a reminder that the Israeli Chief of Staff claimed that 90% of those killed were militants...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. Whatever helps you sleep better at night. nt

[Crunchy Frog]

33. Is the grave of Baruch Goldstein still treated as a shrine?

Does anybody claim to "get" Jews when they gun down Arabs in cold blood?