Peace Now: Only Palestinians' houses demolished

[Scurrilous]

Left-wing movement's report reveals some 70,000 West Bank Palestinians live in Area C under full Israeli control, but only few receive building permits. According to report, for each building permit Civil Administration gives Palestinians, its issues 55 demolition orders

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3509405,00.html

<snip>

"Ninety-four percent of the construction requests submitted by Palestinians living in the West Bank under Israeli control are denied, according to a Peace Now report released Thursday morning, referring to the time period between 2000 and 2007.

Civil Administration officials rejected the claims, saying that the figures were inaccurate.

According to the left-wing movement's report, some 70,000 Palestinians live in Area C, which is under full Israeli control and where the Civil Administration is responsible for the planning and construction rules.

Data delivered to Knesset Member Chaim Oron (Meretz), in response to a question he asked the defense minister, revealed that Palestinians hardly received building permits in the areas controlled by Israel.

Peace Now officials said that when the Palestinians have no other choice but to build without receiving a permit, the Civil Administration destroys about 33% of the illegal building, after issuing a demolition order.

In the settlements, however, less than 7% of the demolition orders are executed, an official added."

[Tom Joad]

1. I think Israel's policy here is a natural expression of zionism.

I call it racism.

[LeftishBrit]

3. 'A natural expression of Zionism' - WTF!

Zionism simply means support for the continued existence of the Jewish homeland (many Zionists oppose the Occupation). Peace Now are left-wing Zionists, not anti-Zionists.

Yes, this particular policy is unjust and racist (see my other post); but that doesn't mean that all Zionism is racism.

Many American and British policies and actions are unjust and racist - that doesn't mean that the countries shouldn't exist, or that support for their continued existence is racist in itself.

[Tom Joad]

4. Should it exist as a state for Jews, or a state for all its

inhabitants?
If you believe it should exist as a state for Jews, then naturally this is what needs to be done. Just as naturally the Palestinians needed to be expelled in 1948 in order to produce a Jewish state, and naturally they cannot ever be allowed to return.

If you believe, like i do, that Jews and Palestinians should share the land equally, that neither should have domination, then fine. but i think that is contrary to zionism.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Does this mean you are against a Palestinian homeland?

Would you support a "Palestine" that was seen as a safe harbor for the Palestinian people? Are you arguing for a single-state solution? Do you also take this vehment opposition to pan-Arabism?

[Tom Joad]

33. I support a Palestinian homeland, and a Jewish homeland

they can be in the same "State" or some other arrangement. But the land must be shared equally. No one should have dominance.

The US is a homeland for many different people.
But it is not a "Baptist State" or a Catholic State or a White State... it is a shared homeland for many people and cultures. The minute the State is identified with some ethnic or religious group, it would lose its claim to be a democracy.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

35. Don't put words in my mouth. Especially when it contradicts what i believe.

Got that?
What is it with you asking me a question and then YOU answering it? That is so disgusting. I find you quite unpleasant to deal with.

I have already said that anyone should be allowed to return to their homeland who chooses to do so.

[Tom Joad]

37. You really should apologize for this post.

You have NO RIGHT to speak for me!

[LeftishBrit]

2. This is a great injustice.

I am glad that Peace Now pointed it out, and I hope there will be lots of pressure to reverse the policy.

[Tom Joad]

5. Peace Now can point out all it wants... nothin' will change.

[oberliner]

6. Nothing will change?

I would argue that those who are devoting so much of their time and energies to the Peace Now organization actually believe that something can change.

I am surprised to find a statement so dismissive of their efforts.

[breakaleg]

7. I don't think anyone is dismissive of their efforts. I'd say we are dismissive of Israel's

willingness to allow change.

[oberliner]

8. Peace Now worked hard to encourage Israel to withdraw all settlements from Gaza

Their hard work helped make that goal become a reality.

Israel has demonstrated a willingness to allow change and Peace Now has had much success in influencing public, and government, opinion.

[breakaleg]

9. Really? Then why are the settlements expanding in Gaza as we speak?

Even when they pulled out of Gaza, they expanded in the West Bank at a rate that meant the total number of settlers didn't drop during that time.

The US demands they stop expansion, Olmert says he will and the next day we see more and more plans for expansion. I'd hardly call that a willingness to allow change.

[oberliner]

10. There are no more settlements in Gaza

No settlements in Gaza are expanding. They were all removed. There are no Israeli settlers in Gaza.

There were 21 settlements. There are now 0.

Peace Now is very proud of the role they had in that transformation.

Hopefully their current efforts will have a similar impact on the situation in the West Bank.

Would that there were a Palestinian equivalent of Peace Now that put the same kind of pressure on the Palestinian leadership to discourage them from engaging in policies that stand in the way of peace.

Change is going to come, the situation as it stands is not sustainable. Many, on both sides, are promoting violence as a means to resolve this conflict. Others are promoting more peaceful solutions.

I believe that the voices of peace will prevail.

[breakaleg]

11. But there are more settlers in the West Bank to make up for the ones removed from Gaza.

The net number of settlers has increased, not decreased.

[oberliner]

15. Peace Now continues to have a role in effecting change

There were settlers in Gaza, now there are none.

Peace Now had a role in making that change happen.

Settlements are growing in the West Bank. Peace Now is trying to have a role in changing that.

I believe their work is valuable and could help to bring about change.

[Tom Joad]

12. Nothing has changed for the better in 60 years.

For the Palestinians, things have only worsened.
There will have to be very fundamental change in Israel before peace and justice will prevail.
A revolution in thinking.
It requires more than ceding a few "concessions" here and there.

[oberliner]

14. What a sad comment on the peace movement

So all of the groups that have devoted so much time and effort into working towards improving the lives of Palestinians have had no success whatsoever?

All of the protests, the actions, the consciousness-raising, all the work of countless of peace activists has been a waste of time?

NOTHING has changed for the better in 60 years?

Things have ONLY worsened?

You cannot point to a single success for those who have worked for so long on behalf of peace and justice for Palestinians?

[Tom Joad]

27. It is not an indictment of the peace movement, it is indictment of those

that run the Israeli regime, and their supporters in DC and beyond.

The only success i can point to is the increasing awareness of the American public (and the worldwide public) to the injustice of the occupation. And the growing support for real action to end the occupation and dispossession of Palestinians from their homes. That is a source of hope.

[Tom Joad]

28. btw, if you want to read posts that attack "peace now" and other such

groups in Israel, i can dig some up from you. They most vicious attacks come from those who support the Occupation and oppose human rights for Palestinians.

All i am saying is that despite whatever good intentions Peace Now has, they have not substantially changed Israeli policy.

I am not suggesting they quit their work. Perhaps things have been much worse for Palestinians if they were not around.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. So often this conflict is spun as a fight between 2 extremes, but it's really not.

I hear you loud and clear Tom.

The occupation with all its attendant horrors isn't the work of far-right nutcases or Kahanists, it's the work of Labor, Likud and Kadima. It's the bedrock of every gov't elected since 1967, left and right.

So has Peace Now been effective in changing the policy of every Israel gov't in power for the last 40 years? No.

That's why international boycott, sanctions and divestment are needed.

Ideally, peace groups around the world would support this type of effective nonviolent resistance.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[breakaleg]

20. Care to show where the word "occupation" appears in the post you are responding to?

Or are you just making shit up?

[Vegasaurus]

22. No need

When Tom talks of "60 years" if it quite clear that we aren't talking about the 40 year occupation, but the 60 year one. Why else use the number 60?

If the problem is "the occupation" as you keep saying, you use the number 40, not the number 60,

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

[breakaleg]

23. Because it was 60 years ago that Palestinians were pushed out of their homes.

Are you saying this is news to you?

[Vegasaurus]

24. Do you question the legitimacy of Israel?

I know that some on this board do.

If the problem is the "occupation", then talk about the problems since 1967. Clearly, there are many here who question Israel's very existence.

[breakaleg]

26. Are you saying there can only be one problem? Palestinians were forced out of their

homes in 48. It's you who lumps that together with the occupation, not Tom. I don't see why we have to limit ourselves to only one crime when those people who were forced out are still living in camps and have not been afforded their rights under international law.

You've said that before. "Clearly, there are many here who question Israel's very existence." And when I questioned you on it, you were unable to come up with a single example or quote. I thought we had agreed you were going to let it go until you could back up that false claim?

[Tom Joad]

31. You are talking with those who

love to twist words and meanings into something they can deal with.
They deny history.

Might as well talk physics with a flat-earther, or biology with a "creationist", or existentialism with a rabbit.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[breakaleg]

36. Seriously, back up your claim once and for all. If you can. Or face the truth and let it go.

[Tom Joad]

30. NO history before 1967?

the world began in 1967?
even the "creationists" are smarter than that.

[Tom Joad]

29. There has not been injustice against Palestinians for 60 years?

I did not use the word "occupation".
But there have been human rights abuses and war crimes against the Palestinian people for 60 years.

[Tom Joad]

13. No settlements in Gaza, only a policy of malnutrition for all.

I don't think Peace Now is taking "credit" for that.

[oberliner]

17. Peace Now does not take credit for the Hamas coup in the West Bank

They did, however, express great satisfaction when all of the Israeli settlements in Gaza were removed.

[Tom Joad]

25. The siege is being imposed by the Israeli regime, the children of

Gaza are not "hamas" or "Fateh"... and they are the victims of Olmert's campaign of State-sponsored terror.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. EXACTLY! The Israeli government doubled the settlement construction plans in the West Bank

Israel withdrew the settlements from the Gaza - and doubled the settlement construction plans in
the West Bank:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/27/AR2005082701113_pf.html

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/26/news/mideast.php

Including a whole new settlement in the Jordan Valley. That's a long, long way from the Green Line. link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6210721.stm

There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".* ( http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp )

With the construction of massive new highways and expansion of the massive settlements surrounding Jerusalem...unimpeided access between a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank is becoming increasingly unlikely:




New segregated Road being built cuts off East Jerusalem and divides the West Bank

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=3&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"The Americans demanded from Sharon contiguity for a Palestinian state," said Shaul Arieli, a reserve colonel in the army who participated in the 2000 Camp David negotiations and specializes in maps. "This road was Sharon’s answer, to build a road for Palestinians between Ramallah and Bethlehem but not to Jerusalem. This was how to connect the West Bank while keeping Jerusalem united and not giving Palestinians any blanket permission to enter East Jerusalem."

<snip>

"To Daniel Seidemann, a lawyer who advises an Israeli advocacy group called Ir Amim, which works for Israeli-Palestinian cooperation in Jerusalem, the road suggests an ominous map of the future. It is one in which Israel keeps nearly all of East Jerusalem and a ring of Israeli settlements surrounding it, providing a cordon of Israelis between largely Arab East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank, which will become part of a future Palestinian state."

<snip>

"To me, this road is a move to create borders, to change final status," Mr. Seidemann said, referring to unresolved issues regarding borders, refugees and the fate of Jerusalem. "It’s to allow Maale Adumim and E1 into Jerusalem but be able to say, ‘See, we’re treating the Palestinians well — there’s geographical contiguity.’ "

Measure it yourself, he said. "The Palestinian road is 16 meters wide," or 52 feet, he added. "The Israeli theory of a contiguous Palestinian state is 16 meters wide."

"In the end, he said, “there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=3&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

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Settlement expansion actually massively exhilarated after the signing of the Oslo Accord in September 1993 resulting in increasing the number of setters by approximately 90% by the time of the Camp David 2000 talks.

.

[breakaleg]

21. I just noticed I said "gaza" above when I meant the WB. I'm sure that was obvious to everyone. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

38. The statement wasn't dismissive of their efforts at all..

I totally disagree with yr view in other posts in this thread that Israel will make changes based on what Peace Now says. You make the claim that Israel listened to Peace Now and dismantled the settlements in Gaza, but the reality was that Sharons Disengagement Plan had zero to do with pressure from human rights groups and everything to do with his own political goals. If you think that the Israeli government has taken notice of any human rights or peace group, how come settlement expansion is going ahead full bore in the West Bank? How come the IDF is still destroying farms in the West Bank? If that's listening to Peace Now, I'd hate to see what happens when the Israeli govt doesn't listen to them!

btw, my comments are in no way dismissive of Peace Now, and Tom's weren't either. I have a lot of admiration for Peace Now and think they carry out a vital role in the West Bank, but unfortunately their words tend to fall on deaf ears when it comes to the Israeli govt...