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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 04:24 PM
Original message
World leading holocaust scholar and a world leading Israeli historian defend Norman Finkelstein
link to full interviews/listen or watch online or download or read transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/09/1514221

"The battle over political science professor Norman Finkelstein to receive tenure at DePaul University is heating up. Finkelstein has taught at DePaul for the past six years. Finkelsteins two main topics of focus over his career have been the Holocaust and Israeli policy. We speak to two world-renowned scholars in these fields: Raul Hilberg, considered the founder of Holocaust studies, and Avi Shlaim, a professor of international relations at Oxford University and an expert on the Arab-Israeli conflict. Shlaim calls Finkelstein a very impressive, learned and careful scholar, while Hilberg praises Finkelsteins acuity of vision and analytical power. Hilberg says: "It takes an enormous amount of courage to speak the truth when no one else is out there to support him"

"A final decision is expected to be made in the coming weeks. Finkelstein has accused Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz of being responsible for leading the effort to deny him tenure. In an interview with the Harvard Crimson, Dershowitz admitted that he had sent a letter to DePaul faculty members lobbying against Finkelsteins tenure. Then last week the Wall Street Journal published an article by Dershowitz titled Finkelsteins Bigotry. In it, Dershowitz accuses Finkelstein of being an anti-Semite and says that he does not do scholarship in any meaningful sense.

Finkelsteins two main topics of focus over his career have been the Holocaust and Israeli policy. Today we are joined by two world-renowned scholars in these fields:

Raul Hilberg. One of the best-known and most distinguished of Holocaust historians. He is author of the seminal three-volume work The Destruction of the European Jews and is considered the founder of Holocaust studies. He joins us on the line from his home in Vermont.

Avi Shlaim. Professor of international relations at Oxford University. He is the author of numerous books, most notably The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World. He is widely regarded as one of the worlds leading authorities on the Israeli-Arab conflict."
___________

link to full interviews/listen or watch online or download or read transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/09/1514221
______________

"AVI SHLAIM: Yes. I think very highly of Professor Finkelstein. I regard him as a very able, very erudite and original scholar who has made an important contribution to the study of Zionism, to the study of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and, in particular, to the study of American attitudes towards Israel and towards the Middle East.

Professor Finkelstein specializes in exposing spurious scholarship on the Arab-Israeli conflict. And he has a very impressive track record in this respect. He was a very promising graduate student in history at Princeton, when a book by Joan Peters appeared, called From Time Immemorial, and he wrote the most savage exposition in critique of this book. It was a systematic demolition of this book. The book argued, incidentally, that Palestine was a land without a people for people without a land. And Professor Finkelstein exposed it as a hoax, and he showed how dishonest the scholarship or spurious scholarship was in the entire book. And he paid the price for his courage, and he has been a marked man, in a sense, in America ever since. His most recent book is Beyond Chutzpah, follows in the same vein of criticizing and exposing biases and distortions and falsifications in what Americans write about Israel and about the Middle East. So I consider him to be a very impressive and a very learned and careful scholar."

"RAUL HILBERG: Well, let me say at the outset, I would not, unasked, offer advice to the university in which he now serves. Having been in a university for thirty-five years myself and engaged in its politics, I know that outside interferences are most unwelcome. I will say, however, that I am impressed by the analytical abilities of Finkelstein. He is, when all is said and done, a highly trained political scientist who was given a PhD degree by a highly prestigious university. This should not be overlooked. Granted, this, by itself, may not establish him as a scholar.

However, leaving aside the question of style -- and here, I agree that its not my style either -- the substance of the matter is most important here, particularly because Finkelstein, when he published this book, was alone. It takes an enormous amount of academic courage to speak the truth when no one else is out there to support him. And so, I think that given this acuity of vision and analytical power, demonstrating that the Swiss banks did not owe the money, that even though survivors were beneficiaries of the funds that were distributed, they came, when all is said and done, from places that were not obligated to pay that money. That takes a great amount of courage in and of itself. So I would say that his place in the whole history of writing history is assured, and that those who in the end are proven right triumph, and he will be among those who will have triumphed, albeit, it so seems, at great cost. "

link to full interviews/listen or watch online or download or read transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/09/1514221



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UndertheOcean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-09-07 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think he will get tenure...
an abundance of scholars of much less quality get it...
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
2. some links
Edited on Thu May-10-07 12:39 AM by Douglas Carpenter
The Amazon link to Destruction of the European Jews
by Raul Hilberg:

http://www.amazon.com/Destruction-European-Jews-Raul-Hilberg/dp/0841909105/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178772718&sr=1-2

The Amazon link to: The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World by Avi Shlaim

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Wall-Israel-Arab-World/dp/0393321126/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178773051&sr=1-2

The Amazon link to: The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering, (New Edition) by Norman G. Finkelstein

http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Industry-Reflections-Exploitation-Suffering/dp/185984488X/ref=sr_1_3/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178773152&sr=1-3

The Amazon link to: Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, New and Revised Edition by Norman G. Finkelstein

http://www.amazon.com/Image-Reality-Israel-Palestine-Conflict-Revised/dp/1859844421/ref=pd_sim_b_2/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&qid=1178773152&sr=1-3

________________

Link to Allan Dershowitz's attack on Norman Finkelstein in the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article_email/SB117824380227591804-lMyQjAxMDE3NzA4NDIwNDQzWj.html

Link to a reply to Allan Dershowitz's letter to the WSJ By Matthew Abraham:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1005#resp
________________

Link to the Democracy Now Debate between Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and Professor Norman G. Finkelstein

listen by streaming online or download or read transcript:

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

__________________________

link to debate at Oxford Union on the influence of the Israeli Lobby in the United States. "Norman Finkelstein, an American academic and a leading critic of Israeli policies, argued in favour of the motion claiming that the pro-Israel lobby sows confusion to avoid being held to account. The journalist and writer Andrew Cockburn also supported this view, claiming there are "red lines" in discussing Israel that no politician or journalist in the US would dare cross for fear of being demonised or driven out of public life.

Dr Martin Indyk, former US Ambassador to Israel and Director of the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, argued strongly against the motion, saying that the recent 'firestorms' around President Carter's book and the Walt and Mearsheimer report are proof of a lively debate on the subject . His fellow panellist David Aaronovitch, the British journalist and broadcaster, dismissed accusations of conspiracy around the lobby and said that there simply isn't a lobby in the UK in the same way that there is in the United States"

link to debate on Google Video which was originally aired on BBC World on May 1, 2007:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1010

____________________________

Link to the official website of Professor Norman G. Finkelstein:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/index.php



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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. Norman Finkelstein Solidarity Campaign
link: http://normanfinkelstein.wordpress.com/

"Dear Supporters of Norman Finkelstein,

Our letter has now been sent to the Provost and President of DePaul University. We appreciate your support. However, the fight is not yet over. Please continue to show your support by writing a comment or signing your name (and institutional affiliation if applicable) at the bottom of this page. You may also continue to check back with us for news and updates via the links on the right-hand side of this website. Please feel free to contact us or the DePaul University student group via the email links on the right-hand side of this website if you have any questions or ideas about how to support us.

In solidarity,
Dr. Marcy Newman
Norman G. Finkelstein Solidarity Campaign

SCHOLARS, TEACHERS, AND PROFESSIONALS FOR INTELLECTUAL FREEDOM IN SUPPORT OF DR. NORMAN FINKELSTEIN"

link: http://normanfinkelstein.wordpress.com/


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link:
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. Dershowitz v. Finkelstein: Who's Right and Who's Wrong?
As Tenure Drama Comes Down to the Wire
Dershowitz v. Finkelstein: Who's Right and Who's Wrong?

By FRANK MENETREZ

The feud between Alan Dershowitz, a senior professor at Harvard Law School, and Norman Finkelstein, a junior professor of political science at DePaul University, is back in the news. Finkelstein is up for tenure this year, and Dershowitz has been waging an aggressive campaign against him. Both Finkelstein's department and an outside committee voted in favor of tenure, but the dean then recommended against it. As of this writing, the university has not made a final decision.

To date, the coverage of the dispute has not included any serious attempt at evaluating the merits of Dershowitz and Finkelstein's charges and countercharges. It's clear enough that these guys don't like or respect each other, and that each claims the other's work is a travesty. But the question remains: Who's right, and who's wrong? Answering that question ought to be relatively straightforward, and it is high time that someone other than Finkelstein or Dershowitz tried to do it publicly.

The feud began when Finkelstein charged that Dershowitz's book The Case for Israel (2003) was partially plagiarized and wholly false. Finkelstein ultimately published his critique as part of a book of his own, entitled Beyond Chutzpah (2005). The book quotes Dershowitz as offering, in an interview, to "give $10,000 to the PLO" if anyone can "find a historical fact in that you can prove to be false." (p. 91) Finkelstein maintains, to the contrary, that "he genuine challenge is to unearth any meaningful historical fact in The Case for Israel." (p. 91) Finkelstein goes on to quote one assertion after another from The Case for Israel, examine Dershowitz's supporting evidence, and then adduce his own evidence that the assertions are false and Dershowitz's evidence is worthless.



http://www.counterpunch.org/menetrez04302007.html
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Just one of Dershowitz's outrageous claims in his book:
"In the course of arguing that Israeli authorities no longer torture Palestinians, Dershowitz claimed he had a long conversation with the Israeli human rights organization, Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI), in which PCATI not only conceded that there was no longer any torture for them to investigate, but that they had decided not to change their name because it 'helped them attract media attention'.<2>"

snip:"When I emailed PCATI Dershowitz's "clear as day" recollection, Ms. Maggen replied that it is true that there was a heated exchange with others present, but "All other statements made by Professor Dershowitz are blatantly false and utterly preposterous. Neither I nor any other representative of PCATI acknowledged, claimed or in any way stated that torture is no longer a significant issue. On the contrary, it is our claim that the systematic and large-scale torture and ill treatment of Palestinian detainees and prisoners continues to this day."

She further stated that, "Neither I nor any other representative of PCATI ever stated that we kept our name to 'get attention' for any reason whatsoever. Considering the fact that torture is still widespread and that PCATI has its hands full struggling against the torture and ill treatment of Palestinian detainees (and others) by Israeli authorities, the claim regarding statements we supposedly made about our organization's name is totally absurd."

Finally, she concluded that Dershowitz's claim was "shocking in its audacity"

link:

http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/11/3774

_________________

Norman Finkelstein's book "Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History" is a systematic debunking of the Dershowitz book, "The Case For Israel".

Amazon Link to "Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History" by Norman G. Finkelstein

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Chutzpah-Misuse-Anti-Semitism-History/dp/0520249895/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178808761&sr=1-1

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Dershowitz actually claimed that Professor Finkelstein's mother had been a Kapo
Edited on Thu May-10-07 10:05 AM by Douglas Carpenter
(a Nazi collaborator)without the slightest shred of evidence

From Professor Finkelstein:

"On a brief biographical note, my mother grew up in Warsaw, Poland and was a survivor of the Warsaw ghetto, Maidanek concentration camp and two slave-labor camps. Every member of her family in Poland was exterminated. After the war she was a key witness at a Nazi deportation hearing in the U.S. and at the trial of Maidanek concentration camp guards in Germany. My late father survived the Warsaw ghetto, Auschwitz concentration camp and the Auschwitz death march. His entire family in Poland was also exterminated."

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=129

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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. What I find interesting is that he can make these claims and not really be held accountable.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. He really is a hateful person. He has supported destroying Palestinian villages.
Destroying whole communities for the alleged action of one of its members.

What dershowitz proposed is madness. Hasn't the world had enough of that?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. He's mad, mad I say.
You've mentioned this one before. How about a link?
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Glad you agree with my diagnosis.
Alan Dershowitz, "New response to Palestinian terrorism," Jerusalem Post (11 March 2002)


Israel should announce an immediate unilateral cessation in retaliation against terrorist attacks. This moratorium would be in effect for a short period, say four or five days, to give the Palestinian leadership an opportunity to respond to the new policy. It would also make it clear to the world that Israel is taking an important step in ending what has become a cycle of violence. Following the end of the moratorium, Israel would institute the following new policy if Palestinian terrorism were to resume. It will announce precisely what it will do in response to the next act of terrorism. For example, it could announce the first act of terrorism following the moratorium will result in the destruction of a small village which has been used as a base for terrorist operations. The residents would be given 24 hours to leave, and then troops will come in and bulldoze all of the buildings. The response will be automatic. The order will have been given in advance of the terrorist attacks and there will be no discretion. The point is to make the automatic destruction of the village the fault of the Palestinian terrorists who had advance warnings of the specific consequences of their action. The soldiers would simply be acting as the means for carrying out a previously announced policy of retaliation against a designated target.

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. OK - I remember that now
I think it's a pretty creative idea. It might have saved both Israeli and Palestinian lives if the IDF tried it.


Of course, Dershowitz is not a policy-maker for Israel - so his idea to save Palestinian and Israeli lives is only an idea - and that idea hardly places him in the category of someone who " . . really is a hateful person. He has supported destroying Palestinian villages."

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Should warnings be put up for procreation too? After all, every one is going to die.
It will announce precisely what it will do in response to the next act of terrorism. For example, it could announce the first act of terrorism following the moratorium will result in the destruction of a small village which has been used as a base for terrorist operations. The residents would be given 24 hours to leave, and then troops will come in and bulldoze all of the buildings. The response will be automatic. The order will have been given in advance of the terrorist attacks and there will be no discretion. The point is to make the automatic destruction of the village the fault of the Palestinian terrorists who had advance warnings of the specific consequences of their action. The soldiers would simply be acting as the means for carrying out a previously announced policy of retaliation against a designated target.

It is quite shameful that someone would accept this method of "population control."

Willful disregard for humanity is no excuse. Who determines the actions? What if people won't leave? What if they protest the decision?

What an amoral negligence of one's duty to humanity...and Dershowitz is given a pass?

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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. It is a disgusting idea, and opposite every standard of international law.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. March 2002: 52 Israeli civilians killed in three different Palestinian terrorist attacks
Three weeks before Dershowitz' article was published:

Ten people were killed and over 50 were injured, 4 critically, in a suicide bombing at 19:15 on Saturday evening near a yeshiva in the ultra-Orthodox Beit Yisrael neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem where people had gathered for a bar-mitzva celebration. The 11th victim, Avraham Eliahu Nehmad, 17, of Rishon Lezion, died of his injuries on June 20.

The terrorist detonated the bomb next to a group of women waiting with their baby carriages for their husbands to leave the nearby synagogue following sundown prayers marking the end of the Sabbath. Those killed included an infant and her six-year-old brother; a mother and her three-year-old son; a 12-year-old boy; and four other adults. Five of those killed were from the same family. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade took responsibility for the attack.

One week after that attack:

11 people were killed and 54 injured, 10 of them seriously, when a suicide bomber exploded at 22:30 PM Saturday night in a crowded cafe at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets in the Rehavia neighborhood in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

The bomber walked into the cafe, located at the corner of Aza and Ben-Maimon streets about 100 meters from the prime minister's residence, and detonated a powerful explosive charge that completely gutted the restaurant.

And then came the Passover massacre, a week after the article was published:

Thirty people were killed and 140 injured - 20 seriously - in a suicide bombing in the Park Hotel in the coastal city of Netanya, in the midst of the Passover holiday seder with 250 guests. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

The terrorist walked into the dining room of the hotel, in the center of the city, and detonated an explosive device. The terrorist was identified as Abdel-Basset Odeh, a member of the Hamas Iz a Din al-Kassam Brigades, from the West Bank city of Tulkarem, which is just 10 kilometers (six miles) east of Netanya. He was on the list of wanted terrorists Israel had requested be arrested.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/3/Passover+suicide+bombing+at+Park+Hotel+in+Netanya.htm

As we take a moment to condemn Dershowitz' offensive hypothetical ideas, let us remember the despicable real-life massacres that were carried out by Palestinian terrorist groups, including Hamas, during that horrible month five years ago.

Four children under the age of ten (including a 7 month old baby) and nearly 20 senior citizens ranging from seventy to ninety years of age were killed in these brutal attacks.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. All attacks against civilians are crimes. Let us remember all the victims,
Edited on Thu May-10-07 08:16 PM by Tom Joad
not just from one group or another.

All These children are to remembered and mourned.
The list below are just the children.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2002.html

March 2002

Luay Muhammad Amin Dabayeh, 16, of Jenin refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire during an incursion.
Mahmoud Hasan Ahmad al-Talalka, 7, of Beit Hanoun, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to his abdomen near the Nisanit settlement.
Maria Izaldeen abu-Sarieh, 9, of Jenin refugee camp, killed by IDF shelling to her head while in her home during an incursion.
Inas Ibrahim Eisa Saleh, 9, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, died of wounds sustained Feb. 19 from IDF shelling during a targeted assassination.
Ahmad Fakhri Hasan Hashash, 15, of Nablus, died of abdominal wounds sustained March 2 from IDF gunfire during an incursion.
Aziza Hussein abu-Kweik, 17, of Amari refugee camp, killed, with her sister and brother, by IDF helicopter fire during a targeted assassination.
Bara Hussein abu-Kweik, 14, of Amari refugee camp, killed, with her sister and brother, by IDF helicopter fire during a targeted assassination.
Muhammad Hussein abu-Kweik, 8, of Amari refugee camp, killed, with his two sisters, by IDF helicopter fire during a targeted assassination.
Ayman Hasan Abdul-Rahman Ghanim, 17, of Qalqilya, killed by IDF gunfire.
Shaima Izaldeen Ibrahim al-Masri, 7, of Ramallah, killed by IDF helicopter fire during a targeted assassination.
Arafat Ibrahim al-Masri, 16, of Ramallah, killed by IDF helicopter fire during a targeted assassination.
Said Ali Ibrahim Subeih, 12, of Ramallah, died of head wounds sustained Feb. 28 from IDF gunfire.
Yousef Muhammad Yousef abu-Shehada, 17, of Nur al-Shams refugee camp, killed by IDF shelling to his head and chest during an incursion.
Muhanad Amjad Abdullah abu-Hilal, 17, of Tulkarm, killed by IDF shelling to his chest during an incursion.
Muhammad Mamoun Fayez abu-Ali, 10, of Tulkarm refugee camp, died of chest wounds sustained March 7 from IDF gunfire during an incursion.
Said Fayez Yousef abu-Sufyan, 14, of Yamoun, near Jenin, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest while throwing stones during an incursion.
Nida Suleiman al-Azza, 15, of Azza refugee camp, killed by IDF gunfire to her chest during an incursion.
Mahmoud Taysir Ghanem, 15, of Sarra, near Nablus, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest while throwing stones at an army jeep.
Muhammad Jamal Muhammad Nejem, 16, of Gaza City, killed by the IDF during an incursion.
Muhammad Ahmad Hels, 17, of Gaza City, killed by IDF gunfire.
Rawan Abdul-Qader Ismael al-Jabrini, 16, of Hebron, died of head, neck and chest wounds sustained March 5 from IDF gunfire.
Amani Odeh Muhammad al-Awawdah, 12, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with her mother, brother, sister and cousin, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Tehani Odeh Muhammad al-Awawdah, 17, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with her mother, brother, sister and cousin, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Salim Odeh Muhammad al-Awawdah, 10, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his mother, 2 sisters and cousin, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Tariq Muhammad Salman al-Awawdah, 10, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his aunt and three cousins, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Mujahed Arafat abu-Shabab, 2, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF shelling.
Shaima Said Abdul-Rahim Hamad, 12, of Rafah, Gaza, died of head wounds sustained March 15 from IDF gunfire.
Iyad Imad Muhammad al-Mughrabi, 11, of Askar refugee camp, died of head wounds sustained March 17 from IDF gunfire.
Riham Hussam Mustafa abu-Taha, 4, of Rafah refugee camp, Gaza, died of head wounds sustained March 21 from IDF shelling.
Mahmoud Muhammad Musa abu-Yasin, 13, of Jabalya refugee camp, Gaza, died of abdominal wounds sustained March 12 during a funeral.
Yakov Avraham Eliyahu, 7 months, of West Jerusalem, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood during a bar mitzvah.
Lidor Ilan, 12, of Rishon Lezion, near Tel Aviv, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood during a bar mitzvah.
Oriah Ilan, 18 months, of Rishon Lezion, near Tel Aviv, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood during a bar mitzvah.
Liran Nehmad, 3, of Rishon Lezion, near Tel Aviv, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood during a bar mitzvah.
Shaul Nehmad, 15, of Rishon Lezion, near Tel Aviv, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood during a bar mitzvah.
Shiraz Nehmad, 7, of Rishon Lezion, near Tel Aviv, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in the Beit Yisrael neighborhood during a bar mitzvah.
Rachel Levi, 17, of West Jerusalem, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber in a supermarket in the Kiryat Yovel neighborhood of West Jerusalem.
Adi Shiran, 17, of Haifa, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber at Matza restaurant near the Grand Canyon mall.
Orly Ofir, 16, of Haifa, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber at Matza restaurant near the Grand Canyon mall.
Gal Koren, 15, of Haifa, killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber at Matza restaurant near the Grand Canyon mall.

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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-10-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Except that you are completely wrong.
None of the Palestinians killed died as the result of "attacks against civilians".

That is, in no case was the IDF attacking civilians when their deaths occurred. They were going after militants - who were involved in attacks against Israeli civilians.

You can keep pretending that there's no difference between purposely attacking civilians - and inadvertently killing civilians as the result of defensive operations. I'll be happy to keep reminding you of the unfortunate reality.

That is, no civilians would be dieing if Palestinian militants were not killing Israeli civilians in their attempt to rid the ME of all Jews. All the civilian deaths on both sides are the result of cowardly attacks on innocent Israeli civilians by Palestinian militants.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. No, all the deaths are the result of Israel's illegal occupation of Palestine.

There is a great deal of innocent blood on the hands of many Palestinian militant groups (not "of the Palestinians). There is far more innocent blood on the hands of the Israeli state.

Trying to deny that firing rockets into apartment buildings and the like is not "attacking civilians" is... well, I won't go any further.

The moral differences between the two sides are firstly that Israel kills far twice as many people, and ruins imeasurably more lives; secondly that Israel is the one occupying Palestine illegally, not vice versa, and thirdly that the most (not all) of the Palestinians would be willing to accept a just settlement, whereas very few Israelis would.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. There is nothing illegal about the occupation.
It's legality is spelled out in Res 242.

Additionally, even if it was, non-lethal and non-threatening illegal activity is not just cause for killing the citizens of the state that does it.

The UN is there to handle such questions.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. A very unique interpretation of Res 242. Very "Creative".
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eyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
31. not creative at all
you might argue that the <i>settlements</i> are illegal, but the occupation itself is quite legal under international law, so long as the conditions set forth in 242 - which include obligations on the Arab entities involved - are not met.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. How do you explain the terrorist attacks against Israelis before 1967?
At this point Israel was a legally recognized independent member state of the United Nations. The West Bank and Gaza were occupied by Jordan and Egypt.

Israel was not occupying Palestine illegally, yet, in spite of this, there were numerous attacks against Israeli civilians.


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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. at an earlier stage Palestinians did have hopes of recovering their homeland
perhaps that was not a realistic goal. But I don't think it would be unusual or surprising.

to quote David Ben-Gurion as quoted in "The Jewish Paradox" by Nahum Goldmann, former president of the World Jewish Congress:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but 2000 years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?"
__________________

That was forty years ago --- the goals are different now

""Among the various scenarios proposed for self-determination, 'one democratic state in historical Palestine for all its citizens without discrimination based on religion, race, ethnicity, color, or sex (to be determined by a constitution and upon international safeguards and guarantees)' is the preferred scenario among the respondents (68 percent). However, only 16 percent support such a scenario and believe that it is feasible; 52 percent support it regardless of its feasibility.

- Almost an equal percentage support a two-state solution scenario (65 percent) where one is Palestinian and the other is Israeli (in reference to the 1988 Declaration of Independence and 242 UN Resolution. Indeed, it is the most realistic solution from the point of view of its supporters. Fifty-four percent of supporters believe that a two-state solution is feasible while 11 percent support this potential solution regardless of its feasibility.

- Sixty-eight percent of the opinion leaders do not support a potential scenario to establish 'An Islamic State on all lands of historic Palestine (Jews and Christians to be treated as minorities of non-Muslim subjects enjoying the protection of Muslim state.' Likewise, sixty-two percent of respondents believe that such a solution is not feasible. "

http://www.alternativenews.org/news/english/palestinian-poll-on-final-status-issues-borders-refugees-jerusalem-water-politics-democracy-20070304.html

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. What about the other 32 percent?
You cite the following survey information:

- Sixty-eight percent of the opinion leaders do not support a potential scenario to establish 'An Islamic State on all lands of historic Palestine (Jews and Christians to be treated as minorities of non-Muslim subjects enjoying the protection of Muslim state.'

So that means that one out of every three Palestinians support the replacement of Israel with an Islamic state. And more than that number believe that such a solution is feasible.



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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. actually 2.9% according to this polls
Edited on Fri May-11-07 10:37 AM by Douglas Carpenter
in other polls the numbers have varied between 1% and a 7% maximum. It is fair enough to say that it is a small marginal opinion. Palestinian society is a pretty secularized society, at least by Middle East standards and the idea of an Islamic state rising in Palestine is improbable. Although I don't have the data I would venture a guess that there is a higher percentage of Americans who want a fundamentalist Christian state in the U.S..

This was a polls with a very specific breakdown when people were asked to chose a model:

"Polling Data

Some believe that a two-state formula is the favored solution for the Arab-Israeli conflict, while others believe that historic Palestine cant be divided and thus the favored solution is a bi-national state on all of Palestine where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal representation and rights. Which of these solutions do you prefer?

Two-state solution: an Israeli
state and a Palestinian state
52.4%

Bi-national state on all
of historic Palestine
23.6%

No solution
9.4%

One Palestinian state
7.4%

Islamic state
2.9%

Others
2.0%

Dont know
1.0%

No answer
1.3%



Source: Jerusalem Media & Communication Center
Methodology: Interviews with 1,197 adults in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, conducted on Jun. 21 and Jun. 22, 2006. Margin of error is 3 per cent."

link:

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/12493
_____________

I am more concerned about these polls of Israeli opinion because these scenarios are more probable than an Islamic Palestinian state:

Some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual national security public opinion poll

link: http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=140196&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0
______________________

53% of Israeli Jews want to destroy the Haram Al Sharif and rebuild the temple:

Poll: 53% of Israelis want third temple
From: Jerusalem Post -- ]

link: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-54600808.html

.



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mystikiel Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. How do you explain the attacks on Palestinian citizens by the IDF prior to 1967?
From Avi Shlaim's book:-

"They (Israel, in 1954) developed a more covert and devious strategy for terrorizing the Jordanians. They sent into the West Bank (while it was still part of Jordan) small patrols that intercepted enemy units and carried out acts of murder and sabotage. To evade responsibility, the IDF spokesman would concoct a false version of the sequence of events, usually claiming that the provocation occurred inside Israel's territory or that an Israeli patrol crossed the border in hot pursuit of terrorists. (Moshe) Dayan admitted to Jon Kimche, a friendly British journalist, that "UN reports are often more accurate than ours."...

(Defence minister) Lavon boasted in front of the general staff that no fewer than forty small military operations had been initiated since he became defence minister (approximately three a month)...Lavon also boasted about the variety of the operations: "acts of robbery, laying mines, destroying houses, firing on vehicles, etc...during these years more was done in the military sphere than in all the years of the struggle."

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Palestinian citizens in 1954?
If only a Palestinian state had been established in the Jordanian-occupied West Bank in 1954 perhaps we wouldn't be dealing with today's problems.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Israeli Army archives reveal a long record of Israeli collusion with the Hashemite
Kingdom of Jordan with the mutual goal of preventing a Palestinian state.

In fact prior to the 1948 War Golda Meir met secretly with King Abdullah to agree on who got what. The soldiers of the Jordanian commanded and British trained Arab Legion were quite confused at the time as to why after so successfully defending East Jerusalem and the West Bank they were suddenly ordered to stop and go no farther.

The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan have never been friends of the Palestinian national aspirations.

Avi Shlaim has written a great deal about this subject

---"The Politics of Partition: King Abdullah, the Zionists, and Palestine 1921-1951 by Avi Shlaim"

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Politics-Partition-Abdullah-Palestine-1921-1951/dp/019829459X/ref=sr_1_4/103-5644702-8256652?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178957117&sr=1-4

---- "The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World" by Avi Shlaim

Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0393321126/103-5644702-8256652

.


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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #20
35. how do you explain the terror attacks against palestinians during the '48 war.
that resulted in the making of hundreds of thousands of refugees.

This was their home, for hundreds of years.

as soon as the Palestinians fled, their homes were demolished.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. how do you explain the 1929 massacre of Jews in Hebron
that resulted in the expulsion of the entire Jewish population of the city.

Jewish people had lived in Hebron for hundreds of years.

As soon as the Jews fled, their homes were demolished, Jewish cemeteries were desecrated and synagogues were destroyed.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. fortunately the vast majority of Hebron Jews were spared because their Arab neighbors sheltered them
Edited on Sat May-12-07 02:11 PM by Douglas Carpenter
To quote from University of Montreal Professor of Jewish History Yakov M. Rabkin. "the killers were not residents of the city (Hebron) but had traveled there in response to campaigns organized by Zionist organizations of Jerusalem to appropriate the Wailing Wall. Spurred on by national pride--but without the slightest intention of praying there--thousands of Zionist had gathered in Jerusalem chanting, "The Wall to the Jews"....."Wintesses were to claim later that the massacre at Hebron appeared to have taken place as a fallout from the tensions that had developed elsewhere. Most of the town's Jews had found refuge with their Arab neighbors."

from page 115-116 of "A Threat from Within by Yakov: A History of Jewish Opposition to Zionism: by Yakov M. Rabkin

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Threat-Within-History-Opposition-Zionism/dp/1842776991/ref=sr_1_1/102-8701952-4352901?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178996570&sr=1-1

It should be noted that this was a particularly tragic and senseless massacre and all the more so because these were long-established local ultra-Orthodox non-Zionist Jews who had nothing to do with the Zionist colonization of Palestine. The 1929 Hebron Jewish community numbered about 550 to 600 of which about 60 were killed in this brutal massacre.

_____________

During the Nakba of 1948 there were hundred of villages destroyed and along with that hundreds of cemeteries, mosques and churches.

.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #36
43. Is there a parrot in here?

*shrug*
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 04:14 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Indeed
My initial question was parroted by two different posters.

The question I posed was in response to the claim that all of the civilian deaths on both sides are due to the occupation.

I continue to dispute that assertion.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. No, they weren't parroting...
They were trying to point out (unsuccessfully it appears) that attacks back then weren't the sole tool of only one side....
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Additionally, international law . .
. . spells out not only the legality of occupation as a result of war but includes a complete list of rules regarding same. There is no question that Israel's occupation of the WB is a defensive necessity.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
53. Indeed
There are rules concerning such matters. The issue w/r to the Occupation is fairly clearcut concerning Israel's entrance into the West Bank. Only fringe arguments would remain to that question. The only real questions are these:

1) Is Israel's occupation following the rules, concerning issues of protecting the assets and well-being of the indigenous people. The main debate here centers around claims of colonization and unnecessary destruction of property and livelihoods outside of any justification for defense. .

2) A related point of how to end the occupation.


At least this is what I've been seeing on this forum for the past few years.

L-
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
48. So am I correct in infering
that you see the Palestinians as having the greater moral authority regarding the conflict?

I find some of your reasoning somewhat forced. Most of it actually, such as the idea that we can measure morality by merely counting up which side is responsible for more casualties. (If Hamas uses children as human shields to physically protect their fighters as they attack Israeli soldiers, then who is ultimately responsible for their deaths? If Hamas is using a civilian residence as a Qassam factory then does Israel lose the right to destroy it just by virtue of Hamas' decision to station it within a residence? Would destroying it anyway mean that Israel is guilty of "attacking civilians" even though the civilians were undesirable yet unavoidable targets?)

Specifically, though, I am curious about this statement...

that the most (not all) of the Palestinians would be willing to accept a just settlement, whereas very few Israelis would.

I think most people here can agree that the term "just settlement" is an idea that is almost entirely subjective, one person's idea of "just" will certainly be very different than another's, even regarding basics like which standards to use and which historical factors are relevant. So I am curious as to what you mean when you say that most Palestinians would be accepting of a just settlement whereas most Israelis would not be. What "just settlement" are you referring to?

I would also put forward that proposals that may look "just" to you or I may look very different to someone whose future hinges on just how realistic these proposals are. For example, many folks would think that the only just resolution would entail full right of return for all Palestinians to Israel. But executing such a proposal would have potentially dire consequences for Israel especially considering the way we have seen them govern themselves in Gaza recently. Additionally, the Palestinians have not shown themselves to be evry capable of fulfilling any aspect of an agreement that required sacrafice or real committment. No matter how peachy a settlement on paper may look, if it is unenforcable or leaves Israel at an unrectifiable disadvantage then there will be little public support for it.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Are you saying you don't know what a just settlement is? Funny.
It seems the entire world does except for Israel. Denial is a very convenient thing. And you mention "historical factors" but not International law. Funny again.
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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. You seem to think the issue is cut and dry.
Or that the concept of a "just settlement" is agreed upon by everyone save Israel and her supporters. But this is just not the case.
International Law is a patchwork of often conflicting statutes that do not always have justice as the end result in mind. If we were discussing legality I would have a different answer. But we are talking about Justice, which is a far more nebulous and erratic ideal than the simplified version of justice necessitated by practical concerns in a court of law.

In this case, "justice" for one party necessitates a lack of justice for the other party. It is not a simple case of one aggrevied group versus one group who is at fault. The Israel/Palestine conflict has roots within many other nations including much of europe and many Islamic states as well. And if Justice is to be strived for, and we are attempting to view all of the directly related history where the Palestinians and Jews were wronged, leading us to the present state of affairs then there is much work to be done.

For example, the Haram al Sharif. The number one holiest site in Judaism and the third most holy in Islam. It lies in East Jerusalem which is de jure territory belonging to no state. There have been opinions and rulings (at one time or another) advising that one party or the other have the greater claim to it, none of them being legally binding. Now aside from the legal issues, we are talking foremost about ethics, which may or may not follow the same path. Anyone who can conclusively say that they have a "just" solution to this problem, as in "Justice for everyone", is selling something.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
33. Can you explain how these deaths were 'going after militants'?
None of the Palestinians killed died as the result of "attacks against civilians".


Mahmoud Taysir Ghanem, 15, of Sarra, near Nablus, killed by IDF gunfire to his chest while throwing stones at an army jeep.
Amani Odeh Muhammad al-Awawdah, 12, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with her mother, brother, sister and cousin, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Tehani Odeh Muhammad al-Awawdah, 17, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with her mother, brother, sister and cousin, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Salim Odeh Muhammad al-Awawdah, 10, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his mother, 2 sisters and cousin, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.
Tariq Muhammad Salman al-Awawdah, 10, of Bureij refugee camp, Gaza, killed, with his aunt and three cousins, by an IDF land mine while riding on an animal drawn cart.

So, I want to know how anyone could claim that opening fire on a kid throwing a stone or laying a landmine where civilians travel are 'defensive operations'.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. Are you sure that family was killed by an IDF land mine?
Israeli military sources claimed that Palestinians were responsible for the explosion.

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #38
42. See also;
"She was carrying a schoolbag containing explosives"

Iman al-hamas
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3733638.stm

"He was wearing camouflage & holding a pistol"

Tom Hurndall
http://www.guardian.co.uk/obituaries/story/0,3604,1128176,00.html

"He was caught in rpg crossfire"

James Miller
http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=579

__________

Note the sources used by Remember These Children;

Sources: Every effort has been made to obtain accurate, verifiable data for this publication by comparing reports from a number of major news agencies, national and local media, human rights organizations and official sources, including:

* Addameer: Prisoners Rights and Support Group
* BTselem: the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories
* Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs
* Jerusalem Media and Communications Center
* LAW: the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment
* Palestinian Center for Human Rights
* Palestinian State Information Service
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. From the BBC and The Independent
BBC:

A Palestinian woman and four children have died in an explosion near a Gaza refugee camp as US Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni pursued his latest peace mission.

Palestinian officials said the woman, her three children and a young nephew had been riding in a donkey cart near al-Bureij camp when they detonated a landmine left behind by withdrawing Israeli security forces.

Israel has denied any responsibility, saying the explosion was caused by Palestinian militants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1873380.stm

Independent:

The task facing the United States in its efforts to mediate a ceasefire between Israel and the Palestinians became still more daunting last night when a woman, her grown-up daughter and three children were blown up as they rode on a donkey cart in the Gaza Strip.

A Palestinian official said a land mine exploded underneath the cart on which the family was travelling near a refugee camp in the central Gaza Strip, close to a police post that Israeli troops occupied earlier this week.

A spokesman for the Israel Defence Forces' southern command said the explosion had "absolutely no relation whatsoever to the IDF", and pointed out the Palestinians had planted countless roadside bombs in the past 18 months.

http://www.independent.co.uk//eceRedirect?articleId=192770&pubId=55
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
46. Another bizarre non-sequitur?
I just posted links that prove that the idf, or anonymous idf spokemen/women are in the habit of
making outlandish & patently false claims, & the result is to get links showing more of the same,
more barely credible claims from anonymous idf spokesmen? What was the point of that? I'm guessing
it means that you think that Remember The Children got it wrong, & anonymous ethnic nationalists are
more credible?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 04:45 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. From The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights
Five Palestinian Civilians Killed in an Explosion

At approximately 16:00 on Friday, 15 March, a powerful explosion occurred on a dirt path in an agricultural area 300m from the eastern border of the Gaza strip, near the Wadi (valley) Gaza, outside al-Bureij refugee camp. A widow, three of her children, and her nephew riding together in a donkey cart were killed:

1.Zeyna Salman Salmi al-Awawdeh, 39;

2.Tehani Oudeh Mohammed al- Awawdeh, 17;

3.Salim Oudeh Mohammed al- Awawdeh, 10;

4.Amani Oudeh Mohammed al- Awawdeh, 12; and

5.Tariq Mohammed Salman al- Awawdeh, 10, her nephew.


A bystander, Abdullah Samih Shehadeh Abu Khusa, 14, was injured in the ears and legs. The victims were en route to a plot of agricultural land owned by Ms. Al-Awawdeh several hundred meters away, near the eastern border of the Gaza strip. The explosion left a crater approximately 6m wide and 3m deep. When local residents rushed to the scene to provide assistance approximately five minutes after the explosion, they came under fire from an Israeli tank stationed nearby and were forced to flee the area. The bodies were not collected until the next morning, after coordination with Israeli occupying forces. Unusually, no remains or shrapnel of the explosive device were found.

PCHR is deeply concerned that Israeli occupying forces may have removed, altered, or destroyed evidence at the scene in the aftermath of the explosion. Soon after the killing of Mohammed al-Durrah on 30 September 2000, an incident which was televised worldwide, Israeli forces demolished the wall against which he was huddled when he was shot, removing a crucial source of evidence.

Israeli military sources claimed that Palestinians were responsible for the explosion. Based on observations at the scene and eyewitness interviews, PCHR has concluded that this is highly unlikely, as the site would be a far from ideal place to ambush Israeli occupying forces. The path is not used by Israeli forces, and is too narrow for jeeps and tanks. Moreover, the use of roadside bombs in Palestinian military operations in the Occupied Palestinian Territories has historically involved detonation either by wire or remote control rather than booby traps.

Additional circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that Israeli occupying forces were responsible for the explosion. Israeli forces had withdrawn from positions very close to the site of the explosion at approximately 06:00 that day and remained nearby at all times, as the shooting encountered by bystanders in the aftermath of the explosion clearly demonstrates. This would also have deprived Palestinians the opportunity provided by cover of darkness to plant a bomb in the area. The explosion took place near an outpost of the Palestinian National Security Force that Israeli troops had seized earlier and then abandoned during their withdrawal, suggesting that Israeli forces may have planted a booby-trapped explosive to ambush returning Palestinian National Authority (PNA) security personnel, whom Israel routinely targets, or Palestinian gunmen on their way to attacking an Israeli military outpost on the border of the Gaza strip.

http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/W_report/English/2002/21-03-2002.htm
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. So, Remember These Children are correct?

Why didn't you say that in the 1st place?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-13-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Trying to gather as much info as possible
The report from The Palestinian Center for Human Rights appears to contain the most detailed information about the incident.

That organization has indicated that it believes the explosion was most likely caused by an IDF device, however the evidence presented is primarily circumstantial as no remains of shrapnel were recovered.

They acknowledge the possibility that a Palestinian explosive device may have been responsibile (as the the IDF claims) but conclude that it is highly unlikely that was the case.

They do make mention of the fact that Palestinians have used roadside bombs in order to attack Israelis, but generally they were controlled remotely and not set as booby traps.

I would reiterate that the IDF has stated that it had nothing to do with the explosion (I was not able to find the full statement online).

I don't know that it is fair to state conclusively that the family was killed by an IDF land mine when even the PCHR concludes only that it is highly likely.

If the PCHR is correct in their assessment and it was indeed an exploded IDF land mine that killed that family such an incident would not qualify as a deliberate attack on civilians.

From the PCHR report:

"Israeli forces may have planted a booby-trapped explosive to ambush returning Palestinian National Authority (PNA) security personnel, whom Israel routinely targets, or Palestinian gunmen on their way to attacking an Israeli military outpost on the border of the Gaza strip."

Contrast this with the suicide bombing at Cafe Moment in Jerusalem which took place less than one week before this tragic incident.

In that case a Palestinian walked into a crowded cafe and detonated a powerful explosive charge that completely gutted the restaurant, killing 11 people and wounding 54. Hamas claimed responsibility for that attack.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #51
56. And are you planning on answering the question I asked initially?
Because even if those three were removed from the list, there's still one where I'd really like to know how their death was Israel taking action against militants...

btw, you can reiterate that the IDF claims to have had nothing to do with the explosion all you like. The fact is that claims of this nature by the IDF have to be taken with a grain of salt due to past instances (and there's more than a few) where the IDF has claimed something and it's turned out that the true story is very different from the one they spin...
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number6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
57. total BullSh*t
"All the civilian deaths on both sides are the result of cowardly attacks on innocent Israeli civilians by Palestinian militants."

JUST STOP IT

this Israel can never do wrong crap !!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-10-07 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 07:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
34. Excuse me, but what did any of that have to do with what Dershy said?
As we take a moment to condemn Dershowitz' offensive hypothetical ideas, let us remember the despicable real-life massacres that were carried out by Palestinian terrorist groups, including Hamas, during that horrible month five years ago.

Also, I think calling his advocating collective punishment 'hypothetical' is an attempt to minimise what is truly an offensive idea. Just curious, but what other ideas do you think are merely 'hypothetical'? What about the ideas of some that an Islamic state in what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories would be a great idea?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Gives some context
I'm not sure why Dershowitz' five year old op-ed piece was brought up in the first place. But seeing as it was cited, it seems relevant to understand what was going on during March of 2002 when the piece was published.

It was hypothetical. This was an op ed piece. The idea that an Islamic state ought to be set up in what is now Israel and the Occupied Territories is part of the charter of the organization currently in control of the Palestinian National Authority.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-16-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #37
55. No it doesn't. It was an attempt to justify the advocating of collective punishment...
Edited on Wed May-16-07 09:33 AM by Violet_Crumble
And seeing as how this thread was started by an article about Finkelstein, Dershy's bound to pop up due to his eager participation in the ongoing spat between them...

It was every bit as hypothetical as someone advocating an Islamic state taking in what is now Israel. Or are you now claiming that anyone who advocates that is a policy maker? And when it comes to Israel using collective punishment, there's nothing hypothetical about it as what Dershy advocated was pretty much how things were done in Lebanon during last year's war...

on edit: I'd like to ask you why you feel the need to put Dershy's advocating of collective punishment in context while you've started new threads each time Qassams get fired and have never once tried to put any of them in any sort of context...
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #34
41. All ideas are hypothetical . .
. . all problem solutions are just ideas and are hypothetical until they are actually tried. Hypothetical solutions are often placed in public view for others to comment on.

A better question would be what about Dershowitz' idea was not hypothetical? Only if it was actually implemented at some time and place . . would it therefore be not hypothetical.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
39. Those incidents are truely horrible. But so are the many truely horrible
deaths carried out by the IDF. And it's impossible to compare one group to another without looking at the overall death and destruction carried out by each. And here is where we see that the IDF has committed far more deaths than the other side. It's the numbers that tell the story.
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mystikiel Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #11
26. Maybe it could work in reverse
if a Jewish settler in Hebron committed violence against Arab villagers, all Jewish settlers could be given 24 hours to leave and if they did not, their houses would be demolished. How does it sound now?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
32. Yeah, collective punishment is such a *creative* idea...
Personally I think anyone who comes up with such a creative idea should get some sort of peace prize, coz it's just sooo progressive and showing such a deep concern for civilians to advocate and support the use of collective punishment! Who needs that oppressive Article 33 of the 4th Geneva Convention anyway? All it's trying to do is stifle people's creativity!

'No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.'


http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm


Of course, Dershowitz is not a policy-maker for Israel - so his idea to save Palestinian and Israeli lives is only an idea - and that idea hardly places him in the category of someone who " . . really is a hateful person. He has supported destroying Palestinian villages."

Of course. Someone like Dershowitz who advocates the use of collective punishment on civilians isn't a hateful person! Why, it's just hateful for anyone to say he is! After all, it's not like he's a policy maker and everyone's entitled to their ideas, right? I'm sure you feel the same need to defend those who aren't policy makers who compare Israel to the Nazis, because after all they're only ideas and don't put anyone who has those ideas into the category of being really hateful people ;)





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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-11-07 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
23. Norman Finkelstein's Multimedia resources
a lot of excellent material of both video and audio can be found here:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/content.php?pg=19


.

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-12-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. Audio: Panel discussion with Ali Abunimah and Norman Finkelstein in Chicago
An absolutely superb panel discussion with one of America's leading Jewish-American and one of America's leading Palestinian-American voices in the Palestinian struggle.

It is a little bit dated because the panel discussion occurred on 30 January 2005. But almost all of the discussion is still very relevant.

One of the most interesting and the one real contentious point where the two definitely do not see eye to eye was on the discussion of the two-state versus one-democratic-binational state proposal. Mr. Abunimah is a leading advocate for the one-democratic-binational state solution. Although Dr. Finkelstein does not reject binationalism in principle--he passionately argues that raising the issue now and not staying the course advocating the two-state proposal is a dangerous diversion of energy. That discussion occurs about 50 minutes into this 2 hour and 20 minute panel discussion.



Available on Quick Time (26.5MB -- 2hours and 20 minutes long)

Click on link below to stream online with Quick Time or to download right click and then click "Save Target as.."

http://electronicintifada.net/tempvideo/abunimahfinkelstein30jan05.mov

link to page:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article3581.shtml


.
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