The silence when Arabs kill other Arabs

[Behind the Aegis]

In the newsroom, we wait for it every morning, hoping that it won't come.

Then it does. Same time, every morning. The first notice from the wire service is as economically laconic as it is horrifying. A car bomb. A bus bomb. A truck bomb. An open market. A mosque. Dozens feared dead. Some days, scores.

The world can live with it. The world has nothing to say about it. Many Americans, even those who want an immediate end to the U.S. military presence, can live with it.

Perhaps most troubling, Muslim holy men can live with it.

"It's hard to know what's more disturbing: the barbaric sectarian murders by Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq, or the deafening silence with which these mass murders are received in the Muslim world," Thomas Friedman wrote in the New York Times last week.

more...

[Ken Burch]

1. What's your point, Aegis?

It sucks when anybody kills anybody, but it isn't political when an Arab kills an Arab. There's really nothing we can do about it.

You just started this thread to start a dust-up, from what I can see.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. What's your point, Ken?

It was an opinion piece, within the posting parameters of this website and this forum. I posted it sans comment.

Perhaps you should stick to your own words and deeds and stop assigning motives to others.

[Jim Sagle]

4. Here's the REAL point - the one everyone knows but no one admits.

The reason Arabs killing Arabs doesn't grab attention is that it's not about the Jews and their misdeeds.

[barb162]

17. I think you've got something there

[barb162]

15. You don't know what the OP thinks

as demonstrated by your question and by reality of course and then you proceed to attribute motive when you have no idea of the motive. DO you do this negative "number" on other posters? It's an important article, not a
dustup as you call it.

[neoblues]

3. Could be one of the reasons...

that so many people imagine Muslims to be inherently violent and associated with "terrorism". Just speculating. In any case, the article is right, there is a terrible tragedy unfolding there and nothing seems to be being done about it (it seems no one knows what to do).

Some in the U.S. (and Saudi Arabia) think our presence there is preventing even more widespread Muslim on Muslim violence while others argue that our presence there is provoking the violence.

[angstlessk]

5. Very sad indeed...when no one cares about the deaths of Muslims

not even Muslims...what does that say about the state of the world?

[Recursion]

31. Why do you say no one cares? Because the MSM doesn't report it?

Saudi Arabia is furiously trying to broker peace deals between Palestinian factions on the one hand and Iraqi factions on the other hand and Lebanese factions on yet another hand -- including some of the highest-level-ever talks with Shi'ites -- because the people there are so upset about what's going on.

The US and Israel are taking so much heat for these conflicts because there's a widely-held perception -- and frankly a fairly accurate perception -- that both the US and Israel have a track record of going into Middle Eastern countries, wreaking havoc, destroying infrastructure and institutions, and setting up Quisling governments that are only ever toppled after violence like we're seeing.

The media don't report Arab concern about intra-Islamic violence because the media never, ever want us to see the consequences of our policies in the Middle East.

[calzone]

6. The entire premise of the article reeks..

..of anti-Arab hate-baiting. It's central premise is completely false.
It reminds me of the rightwing smear-tactic of saying Muslims don't condemn terrorism, that you never hear the Muslim cleric community decry violence and Jihadists. It is patently false. But of course, if you repeat a lie often enough.........

[Douglas Carpenter]

7. thank you.... And the claim is so patently absurd.

The news almost every day is filled with violence in Iraq where Arabs are killing other Arabs and in the Gaza where Arabs are killing other Arabs. As you said the article does indeed reek of anti-Arab hate-baiting.

But as you say....repeat a lie long enough and loud enough people will believe demagoguery -- not their own eyes.

[pelsar]

11. actually it doesnt.....

true it may bother the ears to hear it ...but the standards do differ: sometimes its declared" we expect more from israel".......which is another way of saying, we expect less of the palestinians....which is also a way of saying we have two standards.

its not a matter of killings not being in the news...its what happens after that.

How many names of the palestinian children killed have been mentioned?.... quite a different story when israelis do the killing

when ever an israeli tank shell was used, there was quite a lot of press...when 50+ rpgs are shot at a single home in gaza by fatah (or hamas, i forget which) with the family inside...not much is heard about it.

any UN sessions called?...

take this headline from amnesty international:
Israel/Occupied Territories: Deliberate attacks a war crime 06/30/2006
http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE150612006

and that incident pales to what is now going on..but you wouldnt now it, since it barely reported.

_____________

now looking in their website for something about gaza these last few days..only i cant seem to find anything
http://news.amnesty.org/
http://www.amnesty.org/

which is rather odd......
_________

I'm sure there are some good reasons...probably its because "less is expected of them"...or put differently "more is expected of israel"....which translates to a double standard.

[calzone]

24. Your points are unfocused and unclear

I can't quite make out where you're coming from or what points you think you're making.
If Arabs are killing Arabs, or Israelis killing Israelis, that's routine murder, which happens in every country and isn't newsworthy on a intnl basis, particularly in context of a local war.
On another level, if your reporting about the oppression of the Jewish quarter in 1943 Warsaw and some resistance fighters kill fellow Jews that are believed to be collaborating with the Germans, that's not as newsworthy as the fighting between the Jews and the Germans.
My point stands and is unrefuted.
"How many names of the palestinian children killed have been mentioned?.... quite a different story when israelis do the killing"

What are you saying, that Palestinians are killing Palestinian children? Where? When? Why?
Israelis killng Pal children is news baby,a father holding his child and caught in a crossfire between Israelis and Pals and both are shot by the IDF, a little Arab girl w/school books inadvertantly approaches a checkpoint, then turns in terror and runs and is then machine-gunned in the back, a retarded custodian at the church where Palestinian security men are holed up is sniped by Israeli soldiers, Palestinian children deliberately coaxed out into the open and taunted to make them throw rocks, then a pre-positioned sniper picks them off because orders say any kid that seems to be over Bar-Mitzvah age can be killed at will, a peace activist young woman trying to stop Israeli bulldozers from summarily burying old Arabs alive in their houses in random sweeping retaliation is deliberately run over and killed...and none of these fine upstanding Israeli citizens are held accountable...that is news. Wanna know what doesn't get into the news? I could go on for hours. Just one example is Jewish settler groups that've tried to bomb Arab elementary schools. Cases of settlers attacking and killing innocent Palestinians are legion.
But believe me, when a suicide bomber blows up a bus or restaurant in Israel the press are escorted and rushed to the scene, given access that no-one else but emerg and security personnel can get, whereas when the IDF rockets a row of Arab apartments or kills and wounds civilians doing nothing but looking out of their hovels in refugee camps the press is completely barred, kept away and in some cases attacked and arrested, their footage confiscated.
50+ RPG attacks on a single home in Gaza? Nope, never heard of it. Sounds like rubbish, I know what a single RPG can do to a structure...50? But if true so what? What are the details? There are hundreds of cases of internecine fighting, so what? It gets reported.
No, if there's bias and a double standard it's applied unfavorably towards the Palestinians and favors the Israelis, in my experience, and I worked for years in the news media.
Here's some news for those who claim a double standard is unfair as it relates to poor beleagered Israel. It's not a fair, even fight.
It never has been. Israel gets 6.5 billion a year from the U.S., 2 billion of which is outright gifted in arms and military technology. Israel has nukes. They have a modern, top-equipped military with full air and intel superiority while the Pals have their balls to grab... squat. And the Israelis have used their superiority to make many Palestinian villages and refugee camps modern reflections of 1943 Warsaw. And yes, I'm quite familiar with the conditions of that city at that point in history.
Folks generally sympathize with the oppressed underdog. Weird huh? Particularly when the U.S., for 30 years and right upto this very minute,, has paid such a staggering price for it's relationship with Israel.

[breakaleg]

26. I wish I could recommend this post. Well said.

[calzone]

28. Thank you. n/t

[pelsar]

29. you've made the case...

50+ RPG attacks on a single home in Gaza? Nope, never heard of it. Sounds like rubbish...... It gets reported obviously not much: within one sentence you say you've never heard of it, must be rubbish then you write "its gets reported"......

it did get reported...most of it is local within the region, but not all, unlike when israel does the killing....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/812598.html

What are you saying, that Palestinians are killing Palestinian children? Where? When? Why?..been happening for the last months...guess your not "up to date" Some were gunned down as they arrived at elementry school-deliberately.

_______

i'm afraid you're a victim of classic propaganda:
Palestinian children deliberately coaxed out into the open and taunted to make them throw rocks, then a pre-positioned sniper picks them off because orders say any kid that seems to be over Bar-Mitzvah age can be killed at will...one of those little pieces that get spread around a lot that in fact have no basis in fact.
______

the above show you "confusion" and lack of knowledge.....but it gets worse:
Folks generally sympathize with the oppressed underdog...this is one of those beliefs that "says it all"..

meaning your take on the conflict is simplistic and belief based...no logic, no history, no rational..just the "underdog" gets the sympathy. No looking at how the "underdog" got there, and what the "underdog might do when given a chance..gaza is our preview of that.

_________

as far as the secretatian violence....much of the writing about the conflict is based on "human rights"...i hadnt realize that when palestinains take away "human rights" its no longer considerd newsworthy.

[calzone]

34. Propaganda huh? Oh yeah?

Pelsar wrote:
"50+ RPG attacks on a single home in Gaza? Nope, never heard of it. Sounds like rubbish...... It gets reported obviously not much: within one sentence you say you've never heard of it, must be rubbish then you write "its gets reported"......

it did get reported...most of it is local within the region, but not all, unlike when israel does the killing...

Taking my comments out of context, parsing them, then snipping to make them say something they didn't is called 'constructing a straw man'. It's the tactic of someone ho has been effectively refuted but can't admit it. The incidents of Arab on Arab violence gets reported, as you've demonstrated, but using Haaretz as a source is amusing.

"They returned a few minutes later with a suspicious-looking liquid and the boy understood that he shouldn't drink it. Then they poured it on his hands. Do you know what it was? Acid. Do you understand the depths of the hatred?" Abu Zeida asked."

Yeah, like they found acid just lying around...the homeowners must've had a swimming pool I guess. *sarcasm* You'll have to do better than that for the incident to be believed. I explained nicely why the premise that Israel is unfairly held to some imaginary higher standard is false and agenda-ridden. Another point I didn't make is that the violence exists (as it does in Iraq) because of an oppressive outside force (Israel and the U.S.) creating the cauldron of boiling violence thru it's pressure-cooker policies. That obviously isn't inadvertant either.

Pelsar wrote:
"i'm afraid you're a victim of classic propaganda:
Palestinian children deliberately coaxed out into the open and taunted to make them throw rocks, then a pre-positioned sniper picks them off because orders say any kid that seems to be over Bar-Mitzvah age can be killed at will...one of those little pieces that get spread around a lot that in fact have no basis in fact."

No basis in fact huh? Facts to follow pelsar, but first, how do you know? Hmmmmm? You say it isn't true, yet offer no support...indeed, how could you? Even if you were in the IDF, how could you claim authoritative knowlege? The answer is you can't.

New York Times reporter Chris Hedges...for Harpers.
"A Gaza Diary"
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/eyewitness/Gaza/a_gaza_diary_scenes_from_the_pal.htm

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles/Sharma_CNN-Israel-Civilians.htm

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/70ef163b25b2333fc1256991004de370/f28116dcd8df045ac1256cda0056fa08?OpenDocument

http://www.nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/kchristison1022.html

http://www.killingtrain.com/archives/2006_07.html

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/112800-02.htm

http://www.pnic.gov.ps/arabic/quds/eng/articles/quds_cyn.html

Israelis with a conscience, who actually try to practice Judaism:
http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org/MiddleEast.htm

http://www.counterpunch.org/sunil1.html

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=Qana_Massacre_Israeli_Air_Strike

United Nations report:
"As of early February 2004, farmers are complaining that the IDF taunts Palestinian youths who are either working or lingering near the southern gate. The youth will often throw stones and the IDF responds with tear gas or plastic-coated metal bullets. (Taunts like, "This is our land now, you will have to leave’ and "Oh, you poor Palestinians, we have taken all you land. Poor you, how sad".) Villagers fear there will be a more serious incident if the situation continues."

http://www.un.org/unrwa/emergency/barrier/profiles/jayous.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1007051,00.html
www.counterpunch.org/barghouti10252004.html

Pelsar...that's called vetting, sourcing, and backing up your statements. I await your concession.

[pelsar]

35. your amusing....

i take your quote to prove you have no idea what your talking about (a contradiction within one sentence)....and then you take the same quote from my post...and show how i contradicted myself with my own proof....and then you claim that that the article is false (and some strange comment about swimming pools full of acid in gaza...)

thats not called a "strawman"...its called something else.

i prefer precison.....and consistency....your links dont relate to the quote i'm referrring to..(except for one...the palestine monitor which has no real credibility)



and the idea of blaming israel when hamas and fatah are killing not just each other but civilians and children is as old as the "elders of zion"

funny how they dont blame israel for their fighting...but hey what do they know, they're just locals..takes a westerner to explain to the "natives" why they're doing what they're doing (kind of sounds like a bit of that elite colonialistic attitude doesnt it?)

[calzone]

38. You're unable to concede, and therefor...

...you're not an admirer of the truth. I expect people to be honest and debate in good faith.
You used haaretz as a source for a heresay-based, factually-defective story, then declare palestine monitor to be unacceptable, without offering any justification or refuting the raw facts and figures it lists. Then you say my multitudinous links and backup don't address the point you made, when you wrote that the IDF does not deliberately target children and innocent civilians. All my links show conclusively and precisely that you are wrong.

You stand naked and exposed.

[pelsar]

41. more than amusing.....

What are you saying, that Palestinians are killing Palestinian children? Where? When? Why

get out much?

[Lurking Dem]

37. Ha'aretz is not a credible source?

It's a left leaning, legitimate newspaper.

You think Counterpunch (has it EVER had a good word for a Democrat??) and Palestine Monitor are reliable, but Ha'aretz is not? Is this upside down day?

[calzone]

39. Why do you end your post title with a question-mark?

Using Haaretz as a credible source on Israeli-Palestinian issues is goofy. Left-leaning? I'll bet many of the Israeli-first, Israel-can-do-no-wrong posters here would define themselves as "left-leaning dems". That doesn't carry water.
Counterpunch is one of the most honest, accurate, democratic and liberal sites on the net. I also respect the columns by Charlie Reese BTW, I'll post him here from time to time. You're welcome to offer any examples where Counterpunch (or palestinemonitor) have displayed rightwing sentiments and/or engaged in propaganda or outright lying.
I won't be holding my breath. I've been reading Counterpunch for years, they are firmly on the political left and they've got real balls, reporting what the MSM can't or won't.
You sir, are the one who's wearing the gravity-boots.

[Lurking Dem]

40. You are precious.

Thanks for the chuckle.

[calzone]

42. List of options....

1. Refute with facts.

2. Concede the point.

3. Wiggle off, offering up some variation of "LOL!"

:-) ;-)

[Lurking Dem]

43. If you said the sky was green

I would be equally dismissive and just as disinclined to debate that point as I am this one.

[calzone]

44. I'm sure you wish I had said that...

...which brings me to a 4th option, the one you've chosen here.
"if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bulls**t."

I think it's obvious that the reason you have studiously avoided option #1 is because you can't rise to the challenge. How could you?

[msmcghee]

12. You should try actually reading the article . .

. . before making proclamations about just what the "entire premise of the article reeks" of.

I think you missed this part:

(snip)

And, lest we for a moment conclude that we Jews are not a part of this ...

On neither side do mainstream religious movements and spiritual figures campaign for peace, exhort for compromise, hand down clerical rulings that favor peace, that help to forge peace, or force peace.

For 40 years, we have had rabbis from Brooklyn issuing blanket bans absolutely prohibiting so much as an inch of compromise in the territories.

For decades, we have had radical rabbis excusing, interpreting, justifying, explicating human rights abuses against Palestinians.

The intifada marked a low point for religious Judaism, with a new mitzvah proclaimed in street signs urging total war against the Palestinians, and yeshiva students skipping class to pass out bumper stickers calling for the full might of the IDF to be unleashed in the territories.

Holy men have failed the Holy Land.

Holy men have ruined the Holy Land.

A holy man who sanctifies killing, who lobbies for war, is not fighting God's war. He is fighting God.

(snip)

[Ken Burch]

16. Well, I can respect the author of the piece for saying that...

n/t.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. fair enough, I guess I should have read the whole article

sometimes I'm just touchy.

[msmcghee]

22. To be fair, he did start out on the silence thing . . .

. . and then switched to the religious leadership being at fault - which doesn't make a completely coherent argument IMO. I just thought Calzone's overly dramatic characterization of the "reeking of the whole premise of the article" was a bit over the top.

[pelsar]

30. happens to us n/t

[calzone]

25. That's an old, worn out tactic....

...every time I refute some op ed that distorts the truth and catapults propaganda somebody comes back and writes "you should read the article". I read the article, I always do, I learned to read analytically 35 years ago and haven't stopped trying to hone my skills since. You should re-read the article's title.
My post was accurate IMHO and called the piece out for what is....agenda-ridden rubbish.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

18. The premises of the article are sound

"Spiritual leaders have done little to calm tension."

"Where, indeed, are the clerical voices preaching for rapprochement, for understanding, for compromise?"

Do you have some links to show the religious leaders calling for calm and an end to the factional fighting.

[calzone]

27. Barb, here's what I suggest...

Go to metacrawler or dogpile, both sites which scan multiple search engines, and type in "Muslim Clerics call for an end to violence", then try "Muslim Clerics call for calm" then "Muslim Clerics call for peace" in the search box. For added results substitute "leaders" for "clerics" You'll get hundreds of results, article after article, page after page. The internet is a wonderful tool.

[newyorican]

23. The article doesn't reek...

..but coming from a source (fair or not) that is an Israeli-centric news organization, talking about how horrible those Arabs are...

On the other hand, there is a strong undercurrent of schadenfreude from some of the posters in this thread.

[TheBaldyMan]

8. minor correction:Shi'ites are not Arabs, they are Persian in the main.

To confuse muslims of all stripes with Arabs is a bit daft. It's as silly as saying all Christians are Anglo-Saxons.

You must know that most of the Christians in the Middle East are Arabs.

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. actually the Shiites of Iraq like the Shiites of Lebanon, Syria, Eastern

Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and elsewhere in the Arab world are primarily Arab. Iran is more or less the center of the Shiite world and they are indeed Persian, not Arab.

[TheBaldyMan]

13. I'd disagree with your definition, especially with Iraqi & Lebanese shi'ites

there are close ties of blood across borders. While intermarriage is/was common, Persia was not historically confined to Iran, indeed there are a great many ethnic groups across the region. I'd still maintain that the South of Iraq has a very sizable population that may describe themselves as Iraqis but wouldn't describe themselves as Arabs.

It is more like Central Europe with widespread and intermixed ethnic groups and nationalites.

[Amused Musings]

20. I do not think you are correct about Shiites

There are many Shia who are definitely not Persian. Considering there are only about 70 million Iranians and 140-200 million Shia in the world, I would say many Shia would disagree with the Persian characterization. I know it was a long time ago, but before the Turkish and mongol invasions of the Middle East, The Shia fatimids ruled over Egypt-once again, not Persians.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

10. It gets less attention in the Arab world because the Jews aren't the ones

doing the killing.

Hardened religionists in general seem to hold more outrage for when their fellow believers are being killed by people of a different religion, than if it were intra-religion killings.

[barb162]

19. Yes, I'm not reading about a lot of outrage over the young kids

getting killed, ages two and six. I don't see the Hamas or Fatah leaders screeching about these little kids getting murdered as I think they would be doing if outsiders had done it.

[Big Pappa]

32. There is

most certainly a bias when it involves Israel.

[provis99]

33. nice little ethnic slur by Friedman on Arabs here

has he ever called American killings of Arabs "barbaric", or are only Arabs "barbaric"?

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. .