Civilian killed in Gaza clashes

[oberliner]

Clashes in Gaza City between Hamas men and a powerful local clan have cast doubt on a recent truce between rival Palestinian groups.

The fighting occured in the early hours of Friday near the home of Mahmud al-Zahar, the Palestinian foreign minister, killing a civilian.

The civilian, Ayman al-Girgawi, was mortally wounded in the battle that lasted for more than an hour, with long bursts of automatic fire breaking the calm of the night.

Early reports said that men loyal to a local clan had attacked al-Zahar's house.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E5E5094A-C0D8-49DA-B41A-AE288CEBFE5F.htm

[pelsar]

1. these arent "clashes"..

from what were seeing on israeli TV these are battles with with no "calm" to be broken.....machine gun fire with real indescriminate firing...meaning they're not really aiming just shooting in in general directions.

At this point i would like to point out, that given the present palestenain environment (the shooting is also going on in the westbank).....until the palestenians "work out their problems" giving back any more would be foolish.....why extend the chaos and bring in more people into the war, give the fighting parties more area to fight over, more people to recuit and more to kill?

unless of course palestenain citizen security is not that important......and runs a second to the occupation. (that would probably be the preference of those who dont live there)

[barb162]

2. From what I am reading and seeing , it looks like low-grade civil war

Does it look that way to you? These ceasefires or truces or whatever they want to call them don't seem to be working at all.

Neither side appears willing to compromise.

Same story with the qassam rockets and the supposed "ceasefire" with Israel. The rockets are being shot into Israel daily ever since the ceasefire was called. What the heck kind of ceasefire is that?

:hi:

[Violet_Crumble]

3. 'Giving back any more'???

Giving back any more of what, pelsar? Even before this broke out, Israel had no plans of 'giving' any territory back, so why act as though they were going to? Maybe you think Israel should fast-track its settlement building so there's not anything left for those warring parties to fight over?

As for yr last comment. Seeing as how you actually don't live in the West Bank or Gaza either, that may probably be yr preference, but there's others who don't think it has to be one or the other, or that either the Palestinians or Israelis have to be blamed for everything...

[pelsar]

4. gaza....

ramalla, nabulus, etc ...areas given to the palestenains.....now all in the middle of a low grade civil war....and according to several interviews with palestenians.....(of which i have far more information sources than those how are limited to a few internet sites)....some have already mentioned their preferences for "times gone by"

as far as no plans for israel giving back territory..i can recall quite a few posts that mentioned that israel would not leave gaza, would not leave lebanon, etc.....and of course israel did ...Israel has returned territory quite a few times, and has shown that its willing to....simple historical facts (same facts show those same withdrawls used as new positions to launch missiles on israeli cities...hard to argue with them)

its not a matter of "whos fault"...its a matter of whats happening now in the PA.....and its called a low grade civil war with battles happening and threats of battles happening at various places with civilians caught up in the middle, even kassams landing on palestenains apts.....there is no authority, there is no law at the present

an 40 kassams have been launched at israel since the psuedo cease fire......

nobody knows who will win/lose or what the future holds for the PA and its citizens.....all of that puts any negotiation on hold and nobody knows whos the leadership of the PA

[Howardx]

5. why do you continually misspell "palestinian"?

is it some kind of code or something?

[pelsar]

7. no code....

i just type fast and dont always spell check (long words have a greater chance of me making a spelling mistake)

[Howardx]

15. i googled "palestenain"

seems to happen to you quite a bit

[pelsar]

16. I"m afraid to ask...

how many times?

[Howardx]

23. pages and pages

n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Let me repeat this for you. Israel had NO plans to 'give' back more territory...

as far as no plans for israel giving back territory..i can recall quite a few posts that mentioned that israel would not leave gaza, would not leave lebanon, etc.....and of course israel did ..

Newsflash - people on this board aren't Israel and I don't give a toss what anyone on this board has said. I was talking about what Israel has said and they did NOT have any plans to 'give' back more territory...


its not a matter of "whos fault"...

Which is what I've been trying to tell you, pelsar...

btw, yr claims that Gaza were 'given' back are complete nonsense, seeing as how Israel still held control over the borders etc. Israel merely removed settlements and temporarily removed troops...

[pelsar]

8. Israel said?

i cant recall the "country" saying that....i can recall plenty of politicians saying lots of things... (starting with begin....)

one can say that israel temporary removed the troops...or one can look at it honestly and say israel (as in lebanon) left only to be rewarded with missiles....

and then israel left again...and again received more missiles...its the timeline and cause and effect. Gaza and Lebanon make it so clear. The only way to blame israel is to ignore the sequence of events

which is why i am so satisfied with all the withdrawls from Lebanon (>2x) and Gaza (2x)....each withdrawl has been followed up with attacks. If it was just once, excuses will be found but not TWICE! One has to really dig hard to find some kind of excuse to blame israel for those attacks.

its clear as it ever could be now, the settlements are not the problem.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. You know I meant the Israeli govt...

No worries. In future I'll make sure I spell it out for you...

one can say that israel temporary removed the troops...or one can look at it honestly and say israel (as in lebanon) left only to be rewarded with missiles....

Actually I'm saying for a fact that Israel temporarily removed the troops. And I'm looking at it honestly.

As for the rest of yr post, talk about a severe case of blaming anyone else but Israel for anything. Also, why are you now going on about 'finding some kind of excuse to blame israel for those attacks'? No-one in this thread has done anything of the sort, so how about dealing with what people are actually saying for a change?

[pelsar]

10. which israeli govt?

you wrote as if its a statement of some kind of Holy fact....olmert himself that there would be further withdrawls... (does that mean that you accept the irans presidents statement as fact, the hamas statements as fact as well?)

so your looking at it honesty?...so perhaps explain to me the sequence of events?

israel leaves gaza, leaves the PA/Egytian border in the hands of the them + the Euros....and in return gets missiles and attacks on karmi

so israel shoul have : evacuated all the cities (including ashkelon) to prevent the kassams from killing israelis....
or israel could have attempted in various violent and semi violent means to stop the kassams.
(the PA made it clear they would do nothing....)

those were the choices israel had.....if there is a third i would love to hear it.

israel leaves lebanon to the UN sanctioned border...and gets attacked...(several times)

[Violet_Crumble]

11. The current one of course...

Let's get this thing back on track. You made out that the Israeli govt (being very sure not just to say Israel in case it confuses readers) had plans to 'give back' more territory. That is totally and utterly wrong...

I don't appreciate being labelled dishonest, pelsar. Apart from anything else it's against the rules, and it's not particularly polite...

Also, for a change, how about you answer questions you get asked before trotting out a whole lot of questions in response?

[pelsar]

12. back on track...

olmert has said that he would...in fact he said so during the lebanese war II causing a minor crises here....

that simple....maybe you missed those statements

(of course it would be foolish at this point given the palestenian infighting.....why get more people killed?)

(If i misunderstood the question....please ask it again....it wouldnt be intentional)

[Violet_Crumble]

13. No, I missed those statements...

Got a link to where the Israeli govt had plans to 'give' territory to the Palestinians? Are you confusing that with evacuating a few isolated settlements in the West Bank?

Also you didn't answer my question at all. My question was: 'Also, why are you now going on about 'finding some kind of excuse to blame israel for those attacks'?'

[pelsar]

14. evacuation...

if israel evacuates settlements....(i didnt know that the westbank was divided up in to "isolated settlements vs non isolated and that some "didnt count".....its the first step toward giving the palestenains additional land.....its a step by step process....as history has shown.
(gaza was evacuated, the rachels tomb was evacuated, etc)

the "blaming israel for the attacks"....i probably got myself confused...i was reading the "talk backs in haaretz (i dont respond to them) as well as some al jazeer and the Guardian....and its pretty strong the "israel is responsable for the kassams" syndrome....sorry for my mixup. I cant recall that going on over here on the DU.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. Aren't outposts considered to be settlements?

Because they're the ones that I recall have been looked at as being dismantled. How is that 'giving' territory away? Also, as the outposts and other settlements are illegal and they aren't there for security reasons, there's absolutely no argument that can be put forward for connecting them with the fighting going on between Palestinian factions now...

[pelsar]

18. whats the connection?

between settlements and outposts in the westbank (i dont really think there is a difference) having to do with fatah and hamas fighting. You say there is "no argument"...thats quite interesting since fatah and hamas seem to disagree with you.

Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh accused Abbas of inflaming the political crisis ......

We have intentions about (stopping) the fighting. It is now up to the other side to also stop firing," Khoussa said.

i could go on with a zillion other quotes where each side blames the other or quotes for civilians, where israel is rarely mentioned.....so much for the that their is "absolutely no arugment....."

_____

when settlements are dismantled (gaza) and "outposts" rachels tomb, amona, some go to the palestenains some dont, depending upon the geographic area, etc....but those areas that were handed over havent exactly been used for a 'better understanding"...have they?

[breakaleg]

19. You make it sound like when Israel hands over a small portion of land

you expect them to be thankful or something. Why is that? Why should they be thankful that the people who have stolen their land is handing it back in dribs and drabs while maintaining full control over their lives?

It's like throwing a dog a bone but keeping back his food.

I wouldn't expect them to be thankful at all.

[pelsar]

20. thats part of the problem....

assuming that its all one sided......there are two sides to this conflict...those who can see only one, are the ones who keep fueling the fires and keep it going.....and ultimatly are the ones responsable for the continued violence.

[breakaleg]

21. Wrong again.

I see both sides. Do you?

You can't expect people to be thankful for giving them back something that's already theirs.

[pelsar]

22. thats why your so wrong....

Peace requires both parties involved to "get something"..what appears to be your inability to understand what israelis need shows how little you understand the conflict.

we have seen what happens when we withdraw: missiles from gaza on all the surrounding towns..missiles from lebanon on almost of all israel....quite the nice reaction. Seems to me we have here a pattern, we withdraw, that land is then used to plan and execute plans to kill us.....

infact.. a test if you dont mind......what gesture can the palestenians do, would help give the israelis some confidence that from any land they give the palestenains wont be used as the latest launching pad, etc used to attempt to kill more israelis.

[breakaleg]

24. I know. Israel "needs" the West Bank and all it's water. They

"need" Palestinians' land. They "need" to starve and humiliate the Palestinians on a daily basis.

Israel needs to find a way to defend it's own borders, from WITHIN its own borders and without stealing from their neighbors. And that may mean stop trying to beat them into submission - a policy that clearly isn't working. They've shown they'd rather starve than give in. Israel may actually have to change their tactics. That is if they decide peace is more important to them than other people's land.

[pelsar]

25. whats your suggestion...

since the missles in gaza fly over defenses within the country......what is your suggestion for israel to defend itself from within the borders...

simple enough question....(and will you even answer........)


(btw the acquifers under the westbank run also under israel pre 67 ...so much for the water excuse (try something else...)

[breakaleg]

26. Interesting reply.

The sarcasm in your post and the refusal to admit you are wrong is very similar to Israel's inability to admit it's wrong.

The settlers in the West Bank take the far majority of the water and the Palestinians have theirs rationed. Your refusal to admit this makes me realize their is no point discussing this with you.

As for a solution, if you are expecting a one line answer then grow up. But I know you are not. What you are aiming to do is wait for someone to state the obvious - that there is no simple answer - and then you will say that we've proven that Israel has no choice in what they are doing. You are looking for a way to justify the illegal occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

I don't give a shit if there is a simple answer or not. There is nothing that can justify Israel doing what it does. This poor Israel shit is getting old.

They need to get completely out of the occupied territories and give control of those lands to the people who own them. End of story.

[pelsar]

27. wrong or right..i will answer any question directly unlike others here

but i did notice is that you refuse to even try to answer the question...then skip over it and pretend its not a problem:

They need to get completely out of the occupied territories and give control of those lands to the people who own them. End of story.

except that its not the "end of the story"..is it?...when the kassams continue to fly over into israel......your suggestion will be?..and that is the point isnt it...you dont even dare suggest to an israeli what it should do about the kassams, be it a sentence or a paragraph.

and its seems that Zakaria Zubeidi, Jenin chief of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade, disagrees with you. During an interview on Israeli TV, a few weeks ago, when asked why there are no kassams being made in the westbank, he said because the IDF was always raiding, and the metal work shops would be found.

you say there is no simple answer..ok, so whats the complicated answer?...(you can try....)

_____________

i noticed you couldnt even answer this either:

infact.. a test if you dont mind......what gesture can the palestenians do, would help give the israelis some confidence that from any land they give the palestenains wont be used as the latest launching pad, etc used to attempt to kill more israelis.
______________

sheesh....such simple questions and such avoidance.......


________________

as far as the water goes....i didnt mention it as that was not the subject...nor is it as so simple as you make it out to be....most of the water the settlers use actually comes from the national water carrier, much less is local....but there is no doubt that the distribution is not equal. Israeli policies are not always just or fair and sometimes they simple bad....but thats not the subject here (the water)

I dont know what your knowledge is about underground water supplies, but if you are actually interested in getting past the superficial propaganda you can learn about it here:

http://www.mideastweb.org/water.htm
and here
http://www.mideastweb.org/westbankwater.htm

the problem that you'll have to face is that, israel doesnt need to be in the westbank to access the acquifers

only one doesnt "go over the 67 border:

The Eastern Aquifer (3) . This supplies about 40 million cubic meters annually to the Israeli settlements in the Jordan Valley, and about 60 million cubic meters to the Palestinians.

so much for the "stealing scenario".....didnt take much to find the info, all of 5 minutes.

[breakaleg]

28. It's not avoidance.

I find reading many of your posts so tiresome. I don't think you are here for any other reason than to spread the word that Israel is the victim and defend Israel at all costs. It's the 'at all costs' part that I have issue with. And beating my head against a wall gets me nothing but a headache.

I would also point out that there are many posts here concerning grave injustices done to Palestinians by Israel and that many of these posts go without comment from you.

[pelsar]

29. it is avoidence....

and its been going on for as long as i've been here......

any serious discussion about the I/P conflict demands the ability to both answer as well as ask questions..that in fact is the minimum requirements of any communication. And if the conversation is serious enough i can well list far better than you israeli mistakes, stupidity and just plain"evilness" etc.

but it first requires the willingness to communicate no matter how uncomfortable the questions.

as far as palestenian injustice posts..no i dont go to every post....however any question asked to me directly, will get an answer (assuming i see it). Unfortunatly this cant be said for so many here.

btw, did you read about the acquifers?.....and do you now realize that access to them does not require israel to be in the westbank?

[breakaleg]

36. It appears you think that the reason some of questions go unanswered is because they

make people "uncomfortable". I have explained to you a few times now why I can't be bothered to do this dance with you. If you choose not to remember, that's your issue.

[pelsar]

37. i do remember...time and time again...

and i still dont get it:

criticize israel for just about everything israel does in various attempts to defend it citizens.....and out side of a single, very limited suggestion, you have nothing else to say.

And that suggestion as far as i understand, your not even willing to discuss, its potential failure and or success.

and the "dance"...with a single exception, I have never been taken up on it.....almost no one here has had the ability to go beyond simplistic propaganda. (of the "pro palestenian side.")

and the water acquifers is a very good example: you made a claim based on some simple propaganda, which you obviously bought. A quick check on the internet on the acquifers and its easy to discover that israel doesnt need the westbank to access the acquifers...and you dont even reply.

that doesnt say much for communicating, much less "dancing"...any my questions are actually pretty typical of most israelis......

[breakaleg]

38. And this is why I should know better than to waste my time with you.

There are so many problems with your post I really don't know where to begin. I have done research. It's bold of you to accuse me of believing in propaganda when you constantly spew it yourself. I don't know of a any pro-Palestinians, at least in the way you intend it. And the defending it's citizens line is total crap on so many levels I'm surprised you can write that with a straight face, which I assume you are.

Let me remind you: when you ask someone to answer a question of yours, try to leave the sarcasm and insults out of your post. You might get a better response.

[pelsar]

39. so explain....

I"m easy. if there are so many problems with my post...pick one and we can go from there.

If i'm wrong about israels ability to access the two major aquifers from pre 67...explain to me,(you've done the research....)

if you want to talk about israel screwing the Palestinians out of water, its possibly true, but I havent found much real info on their real needs. Are there times when a Palestinian turns on the faucet and no water comes out?...

The water issue (a world wide issue) reminds me of the "starving Palestinians in gaza". I know their economy has taken a dive (it started with the start of intifada I). But theres a long way from being poor, etc to starving. (as harsh as that sounds)

Most of what i write simply comes from living in israel and experiencing day to day life. Defending the palestenians...i have no problem with, they certainly are caught between multiple forces, but that does not excuse them either. Nor does that excuse a refusal to question what they can and cannot or are not willing to do, or cant politically.....

btw, you've wrote several posts explaining why you wont respond.....and its true i get a bit sarcastic when there are accusations and no follow up once they are questioned.....mainly because i think its very irresponsible in the least......i believe one who criticizes should at least be able to provide one of two answers:

one) "i dont have an answer"-which i can respect as i see as honest
two) a real suggestion, and then have the ability to defend the suggestion.

i usually get neither.

[Violet_Crumble]

31. No, breakaleg wasn't wrong...

They've displayed in their posts here that they can see both sides of the conflict. Folk who are so one-sided that for the most part all they do is look at the conflict from the perspective of what Israel needs and how it affects Israelis obviously are going to disagree...

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Good thing I'm not holding my breath waiting for that connection to be pointed out...

between settlements and outposts in the westbank (i dont really think there is a difference) having to do with fatah and hamas fighting. You say there is "no argument"...thats quite interesting since fatah and hamas seem to disagree with you.

Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh accused Abbas of inflaming the political crisis ......

We have intentions about (stopping) the fighting. It is now up to the other side to also stop firing," Khoussa said.

That doesn't even refer to Israel's settlements, pelsar. It might help yr case to try to find something where they're actually making some connection between the infighting and Israel's settlements in the West Bank....

[pelsar]

32. thats the whole point...

there is no connection between the infighting and the settlements in the westbank, which is why i couldnt find anything....

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Okay, I got a bit confused...

I thought you were saying there was because of this line: 'You say there is "no argument"...thats quite interesting since fatah and hamas seem to disagree with you.'

[pelsar]

34. horrible way to communicate...

this forum/discussion thing.....cant see faces, cant stop in the middle and realize when you said something dumb.....or misunderstood...

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Yeah, I know what you mean...

It's a very limited and unforgiving way of communicating at times :)