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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:39 PM
Original message
MK Avigdor Lieberman's visit to US
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=1...
Israel's most notorious anti-Arab politician and provocateur, Avigdor Lieberman, spoke at Brookings' Saban Center Forum in Washington, DC this past weekend. It will probably come as a surprise to most Americans that such a man could rise to the position of Israel's deputy prime minister and the minister for strategic affairs. He is Israel's David Duke and yet he was feted in New York and Washington during his visit here.

Initial reporting indicated that Henry Kissinger would chair Lieberman's session. No surprise there. Both men are advocates of a "land swap" between Israelis and Palestinians, a euphemism for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Israel. Kissinger's office, however, claims to have sent its regrets to the exclusive gathering.

Lieberman far outstrips Kissinger in the force of his rhetoric with his calls to drown Palestinian prisoners in the Dead Sea, as reported in Ha'aretz, and his declaration that 90 percent of Arabs have no place in Israel but should "take their packages and go to hell." Clearly, or so one would think, it is racist to strip a minority population of citizenship without that being the wish of the affected group. Indeed, there is no indication Arabs desire to leave Israel for a rump Palestinian state consigned to continual subjugation by Israel.

More at above link...

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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. Funny things ... words and their meanings
A land swap is supposed to accomplish the opposite of ethnic cleansing ... leave people where they are and just change the borders. Ah well ... we need our demons.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. did you read the whole article?
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 06:46 PM by Tom Joad
What is your opinion of Mr. Lieberman and his words, and i should say, his party?

in my view, Lieberman is not a demon, he is merely a very racist politician. No wooden stake needed, we just need to unite in opposition.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes, so what?
My opinion of Lieberman is irrelevant; I learned long ago not to judge Sabras ... growing up in the Middle East makes them different. I take my cue from the Peace Now movement, which had been silent for years.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Lieberman is advocating ethnic cleansing.
You certainly have a right to not have an opinion on this influential Israeli politician and his party.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. We'll just have to agree to disagree
Israel was established as a Jewish homeland because the world was horrified at our own intolerance. So to hear it characterized now as apartheid is ironic, but not surprising.

I understand why you condemn Lieberman, but your choice of words says more about you than him. Wanting to keep Israel's Jewish majority by swapping territory would not normally be called "ethnic cleansing", but as I noted previously, we need our demons.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. They got a Jewish majority in the first place by running many Arabs out.
Now he wants to purge the ones that remained behind. I'm shocked that anyone can find support for this.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. So you think the violence in '48 was limited to one side?
I don't support Lieberman; nor do I approve of abusing language. The last time I saw his utterances discussed here, he was accused of advocating ethnic cleansing because he suggested a Swiss style cantonment system. Now, land transfers are being equated with forcible population transfers. I understand the sentiment, but it's intellectually dishonest.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. But he has advocated forced population transfers.
He has also advocated executing Arab Knesset members.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. A half truth is a lie
Why don't you present the rest of what Lieberman said? His comment referred to their actions, no?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. What Makes It Ethnic Cleansing, Ma'am
Is stripping some citizens of the country of their citizenship, and re-drawing the border so where they live is no longer part of the country. It is expulsion of an ethnic minority population from Israel, even if no one moves an inch.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. No, you can't redefine terms any way you want
Adjusting the borders to take account of nationality may offend you, but it's not ethnic cleansing.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I was simply responding to your statement regarding
maintaining the Jewish majority. Let's not forget how it got that way.

I believe I've read references where he said all Arabs had to get out of Israel.
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Israel was born in blood
But let's not forget who invaded whom in '48. Let's not forget the acts of the Mufti of Jerusalem in inciting violence and population transfers.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Lieberman Is A Ripe Swine, Mr. Joad
His scheme for stripping Arab Israelis of their Israeli citizenship involuntarily is text-book ethnic cleansing and ought to be denounced as such. As his party holds a tenth of the Knesset, he must be heard, or perhap endured might be a better word, when he speaks, but there are many hate-mongers in the region this applies to, such as the chiefs of the Hamas government. A tenth of the Knesset, while appreciable, does not elevate him to the typical representation of Israeli thought. And it should be borne in mind, too, that the popularity of extreme and hostile views rises in times of conflict and threat: in a peaceable condition, he would doubtless represent no more than a splinter in Israel, probably not even the portion of the electorate Nader could rely on here.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Yet while more Democrats would be loath to be seen with President Carter
these days and certainly not be seen with other actual "ripe Swines", they have no problem sitting down with Avi.
Not even the most mild rebuke is heard. Not a slightest bit of concern.
strange, that.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. If You Are Concerned, Mr. Joad, About Political Ramifications Here In The United States
You may put your mind to rest. Being seen with this creature will have no detrimental effect on the prospects of any political figure of the Democratic Party in a general election. It will not even have any effect in a Democratic Party primary. Beyond specialists and cranks he is a complete unknown, and will remain a complete unknown. Even among those who know who and what he is, a large proportion, probably the largest proportion, will not consider being seen with him a reason to not support, or to vote against, any Democratic Party candidate. It would certainly not alter any decision of mine in any election. My leading concern is breaking Republican power in our national and state governments, and in this, the question of Israel is a comparatively minor element, and this wretch does not figure in at all. Support for Israel is a settled question in our polity, and will be expressed by all credible candidates for high office. Pointing to the presence of some bad characters on the Israeli political scene will not alter that, particuarly when the elements doing the pointing are generally considered by the electorate to be prone to siding with enemies of the country.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. thanks for the article.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 07:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Take their packages and go to hell?
The author of this article attributes these words to Lieberman, putting them in quotation marks, but includes no citation.

Articles from Counterpunch, Electronic Intifada, and ZMag (the source of the OP) all refer to a statement by Lieberman which appear to be what the OP is referencing, but instead use the phrase:

"take their bundles and get lost"

I find it curious that in the OP, the article's author identified what appears to be the same quote as "take their packages and go to hell"

Sort of reminds me of the "wipe Israel off the map" discrepancies.

Counterpunch:

In May, 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Palestinian citizens would "have to find a new Arab entity" beyond Israel's borders. Lieberman, an immigrant from Russia, claimed the Palestinian citizens of Israel "have no place here." Russians do, of course. This newcomer has the nerve to tell Palestinians with ancient lineage to "take their bundles and get lost."

http://www.counterpunch.org/youmans12082006.html

Electronic Intifada:

Also in May 2004, he said that 90 percent of Israel's 1.2 million Palestinian citizens would "have to find a new Arab entity" in which to live beyond Israel's borders. "They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost," he said.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6148.shtml

ZMag:

These are Liebermans official positions. Apparently unofficially he wants even worse measures taken against Palestinians, both inside Israel and in the occupied territories. In May 2004, for example, he told a crowd of his supporters, in Russian, that 90 per cent of the countrys Arab citizens should be expelled. They have no place here. They can take their bundles and get lost. His speech could have had second billing with one by Adolf Hitler at a Nuremberg Rally.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=1126...
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Hardly much of a distinction, don't you think?
Sounds like pretty much the same thing to me. Either way, the outcome is clear.

Thanks for the research, though.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Avigdor Lieberman and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have both said hateful things
I have just noticed a tendency for quotes related to this conflict to take on a life of their own when posted on the internet.







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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yes, they both have said hateful things. I agree. eom
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. Which American Presidential wannabees did Lieberman meet with, if any?
That's the question of primary concern for us here in America.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Does Condoleezza Rice count?
It's odd how many posts I read saying that representatives in the US must talk to and work with members of Hamas whether we agree with them or not since they were elected by the Palestinians, while at the same time no one in the US should talk to Avigdor Lieberman who was elected by Israelis.

If the US is to serve any constructive role in assisting the two parties in reaching a peace agreement, representatives from both sides must be spoken to even when the US finds their positions to be detestable.

Every single Democrat who wants to be president should meet with Avigdor Lieberman and tell him that his position vis-a-vis the Palestinians is unacceptable as far as the US is concerned. (Thankfully some of his more ridiculous remarks have been disowned by Olmert and in some cases by Lieberman himself)

Similarly every single Democrat who wants to be president should meet with Palestinian leaders whose positions they find unacceptable and tell them so.

I am hopeful that unlike Bush, whichever Democrat wins the presidency in 2008 will engage the two sides and work hopefully as tirelessly as Bill Clinton did in trying to come up with some sort of peaceful solution.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Let me tell you about Hillary's 2002 trip to Israel
She traveled to Israel at about the same time as our beloved Holy Joe Lieberman did. While in Israel, Hillary rubbed elbows with every Israeli politician EXCEPT those that advocated withdrawal from the occupied territores. Hillary refused to meet with peace activists, either Israeli or Arabs, and she did not meet with any Palestinian representatives from any faction.

The often criticized Holy Joe Lieberman, and I count myself among his critics, met with all political elements in Israel and with Palestinians that were not advocates of terrorism.

Avigdor Lieberman is as much a racist as David Duke! If any Presidential wannabee meets with MK Lieberman, we must consider the context of the meeting, just as we must consider the context of the meeting of Senators Nelson and Kerry with President Assad of Syria, or with President Ahmadinejad (if they so choose).

I suspect that someone like Hillary, a woman that joined Bolton in opposing a ceasefire in Lebanon, and one that has forgotten the fate of the captured Israeli soldiers, would probably will meet with MK Lieberman for a photo op and nothing else.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Clinton cannot say enough how much she disapproves of Hamas, or the
Edited on Sat Dec-16-06 10:31 PM by Tom Joad
or saying that the Palestinian people have no right to elect them, or that they should be punished for doing so. And that the US should not in any way engage them in any contact at all. It has been made illegal (!), even for any diplomatic connection between the US and Hamas.

Yet where is the slightest whisper of concern (never mind illegalizing contact) about the extremism of Lieberman? and what does this signal to Israelis? That there will be no cause of concern of any lack of support from the US establishment if Lieberman and his party come to govern Israel. Lieberman's standing has gone up considerably by this event. And Israelis have the Clinton's to thank for it. Peace-loving Israelis have the Clintons to blame for it.

Has any major US politician whispered (just asking for a whisper here) any concern about the ascendancy of A. Lieberman?

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. Disapproval Of Hamas, Mr. Joad, Is Quite Popular In The United States
Therefore political figures here can be relied on to denounce it in ringing tones. Disapproval of Israeli politicians quite obscure to the general public here has no such popularity, and so political figures in this country will be unmoved to vocalize much in that direction.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. I know. For many, politics is everything. Human rights is nothing.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-19-06 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Political Success Remains Essential, Mr. Joad
And unfortunately, the invocation of "human rights" is often no more than a rhetorical club employed in furtherance of a partisanship in a dispute to which it has little relevance. Such trifling usage only serves to discredit the concept in the popular mind....
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. Hillary and Bill Clinton was there. Somehow, i don't expect they would
attend a similary function with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. But there they were, supping with this figure of hate and intolerence. They did not utter a word of concern.

They seem to have no problem with racists who attack Arab's, even if they are major players in a govt.

Why? Have to ask Bill and Hillary.

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-16-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Bill Clinton: U.S. Should Talk to Iran
WASHINGTON -- Former President Clinton said Thursday the U.S. should try talking to Iran about its nuclear weapons ambitions without imposing a lot of conditions.

"If you think you might have trouble with somebody, and God forbid if you think it could lead to a military confrontation, then there needs to be the maximum amount of contact beforehand," Clinton said in an interview with NBC's "Today" show.

The Bush administration has refused to hold direct talks with Iran until it agrees to suspend enrichment of uranium, which the U.S. fears will be used to build nuclear weapons.

"The United States should not be afraid to talk to anyone. They should not be reluctant and shouldn't have too many conditions," said Clinton, who said his own offer to meet with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's predecessor had been rebuffed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. This makes 'Hillary' the worst candidate in 2008
Her support of these policies make her a no-go by my book.

Too much whoring to the Israel lobby to get herself elected.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-17-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. She is prowar, pro-AIPAC
She will whore herself to the highest bidder.
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