'Apartheid' label doesn't fit Mideast

[furman]

http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2006/12/04/1205edapartheid.html

'Apartheid' label doesn't fit Mideast
By CEDRIC L. SUZMAN
Published on: 12/05/06

Former President Jimmy Carter's use of the word "apartheid" in the title of his new book on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is highly regrettable, although it has certainly gained a great deal of publicity for the book.

It is regrettable because it is inaccurate and especially because it is unfair to black South Africans and the African National Congress in particular.

I in no way condone or agree with the way Israel has conducted its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, and believe it was a huge strategic and costly military mistake to build the settlements on Palestinian land after 1967. At the same time, Israel's actions must be viewed in the context of the overall conflict: the Palestinians' refusal since 1948 to recognize Israel's right to exist and their decision to resort to airplane hijackings, murder on the high seas, suicide bombings and other forms of terrorism and armed conflict.

<snip>

The evils and injustices of apartheid were truly unique to South Africa and should not be denigrated by loosely using the word to describe other situations.

<snip>

To his great credit, President F.W. de Klerk saw that negotiations were the only way out, and he was incredibly fortunate to have a person of the stature of Nelson Mandela, who was willing to negotiate with him. The rest is history, but regrettably, Israel has never had a Mandela with whom it could negotiate.

Cedric L. Suzman is vice president and director of programming at the Southern Center for International Studies in Atlanta.

[Name removed]

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[Behind the Aegis]

2. You think *that* is a "better fit?"

:eyes:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

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[sam sarrha]

33. you don't call walling in communities with 22 foot concrete walls and not allowing commerce what,..?...

[mike_c]

3. bogus argument....

There is no reason to maintain that apartheid was restricted to South Africa, or that applying the term elsewhere "denigrates" it. That's like saying that "fascism" applies only to the Nazi axis and "imperialism" applies only to the former British empire. Apartheid is a system of state imposed oppression based on racial and ethnic demographics-- it does not require that the participants be black South Africans and white Afrikaans.

a·part·heid /əˈpɑrtheɪt, -haɪt/ –noun

1. (in the Republic of South Africa) a rigid policy of segregation of the nonwhite population.
2. any system or practice that separates people according to race, caste, etc.

[cali]

6. That definition

is why I think it's an imperfect fit. There are over 1 million Arab Israelis, most of them Palestinian. Although there is undoubtedly prejudice against them, there is no governmental sysem of apartheid within Israeli proper.

The occupation is indeed a horror, and I actually have no objection to President Carter using apartheid as a label, but I don't think it quite fits.

[satireV]

9. President Carter was specific

He said the apartheid was in the occupied terrotories, not in Israel proper.

So to deny there is no apartheid in Israel is not addressing the fact there is Israeli apartheid in the occupied territories but is changing the argument which is exactly what Suzman did as well.

[cali]

12. Perhaps you did not read my post

attentatively. To accuse me of changing the argument, when I exlicitly stated that I have no objection to President Carter using the label, is a tad odd.

The definition that apartheid is race based is what makes the label awkward, from my pov. If Israel grants equality to Palestinian Israelis, but not to Palestinians in ots, it's difficult to make the case that it's race based. But again, I don't see it as a terribly important issue. President Carter has said himself that he was using the label to provoke thought. I think that's legitimate. Personally, I think it's more accurate to view Gaza, in particular, as a ghetto, or prison camp.

[mike_c]

16. what would you call this...?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x157919

[Phx_Dem]

36. cali posted a reply to the OP

your answer lies there.

[mike_c]

37. I was responding to the assertion that Israel does not oppress...

...Israeli Palestinians. The link I provided was an example that overturns that assertion, IMO.

[Tom Joad]

10. The Israeli system of dispossession is much worse than South Africa

apartheid.

[sam sarrha]

4. Palestinian apartheid is many times more egregious than S Africa..

they pull over Palestinian ambulances and make them turn off the engine running the air conditioning and make women in labor sit for hours in the heat till they go critical and them let them go.. they are walling in the cities... they bomb entire apartment buildings on lame information someone might be in them.. they bulldoze peoples olive orchards to ruin the economy.. the Israelis kill many more times the number of Innocent Palestinians than the few extremists do Israels.. an eye for an eye works pretty good till everybody it blind.. the Marjory of the citizens of Israel do not support the governments violence.. just like here

[BonnieJW]

5. What is your source for this information?

[Douglas Carpenter]

8. one only needs to check any credible and independent human rights organization

whether the Israeli record in the Occupied Palestinian Territories is worse than apartheid South Africa is hard to say. I am not sure I would go that far. But it is not a whole lot better.

International Committee of the Red Cross/Palestinian Territories:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine?OpenDocument



http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:

http://www.icahd.org/eng

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

http://www.phrusa.org/healthrights/phr_israel.html

Amnesty International/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/index.do

Human Rights Watch/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/

Machsom Watch (Monitors abuse at checkpoints)

http://www.machsomwatch.org/eng/homePageEng.asp?link=homePage&lang=eng

[sam sarrha]

31. go to NPR.org and look up Jummy Carter's interview.. it is archived there..

[cali]

7. What a mish mash or lies

and truth.

[sam sarrha]

30. go to NPR.org and look up Jummy Carter's interview.. it is archived there..

[Tom Joad]

11. No matter how many of these cute little posts we get slamming Carter,

the fact remains that this book will begin a debate that will not be stifled by the likes of Abe "Avidgor Lieberman is cool with me" Foxman and his ilk.

[Name removed]

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[Tom Joad]

15. Why do you bring up ISM and falsely accuse it of being a

"terrorist apologists"? Carter is not associated with the International Solidarity Movement.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[furman]

20. Facts are facts

To quote Dr. Mitchell Bard:

While the International Solidarity Movement claims to be a humanitarian organization dedicated to the principles of nonviolent resistance, it has demonstrated no interest in peace for Israelis. At a minimum, ISM has acted as an apologist for terrorism and, at times, actively abetted militants. ISM is a pro-Palestinian organization, set up by Palestinians, funded by Palestinians, and opposed to the two-state solution envisioned by the parties truly interested in peace.

ISM protects and enables terrorists.

[Tom Joad]

21. Hate sites are hate sites. Do remember the rules we live by here.

And you still are just repeating accusations (without explanation) that have no basis in fact.

[furman]

22. You think Dr. Bard writes on hate sites?

One of the most neutral websites I have found lists Dr. Bard as a credible source:

http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/Biosind/mitchellgbard.html


Name: Mitchell G. Bard, Ph.D.
Title: Executive Director of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE)

Position: No Statement found to the question "What are the solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?"
Reasoning: no official statement

Credibility
Ranking: Experts
Members of Congress, Ambassadors, Counsul Generals, heads of government, members of legislative bodies, and Ph.D.'s with significant involvement in, or related to, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

Involvement:

* Executive Director of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE)
* Director of the Jewish Virtual Library

Education: Ph.D., Political Science, U.C.L.A.
M.A., Public Policy, U.C. Berkeley
B.A., Economics, U.C.S.B.

Affiliations/
Honors:

* Near East Report

Contact Info:
Phone: [phone] Fax: none listed
E-Mail: [email protected]
Web Site: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/

Other: Books w/ most recent publishing date:

* The Complete Idiot's Guide to World War II, 2004
* The Founding of the State of Israel, 2003
* Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 2002
* The Complete Idiot's Guide to Middle East Conflict, 2002
* From Tragedy to Triumph: The Politics behind the Rescue of Ethiopian Jewry, 2002
* The Nuremberg Trials (At Issue in History), 2001
* U.S.-Israel Relations: Looking to the Year 2000
* The Holocaust (Turning Points in World History), 2000
* Forgotten Victims: The Abandonment of Americans in Hitler's Camps, 1996

By contrast, much of the content on your own site are quite incendiary.

[Tom Joad]

23. I was referring to the stoptheism website only. eom

[furman]

25. stoptheism exposes disturbing facts on the ISM but that does not make it a "hate site"

It is not even listed in the Hate Directory referred to in the rules of this forum.

They claim to have helped get the Israeli government to deport some of their more virulent members.


Int´l Solidarity Movement Continues Anti-Israel Operations
15:53 May 30, '06 / 3 Sivan 5766
by Hillel Fendel
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=104583

<snip>

Investigative journalist David Bedein of the Israel Resource News Agency told Arutz-7, "The Israeli government classifies the ISM as a terrorist organization. This has been known ever since it was found that the two terrorists who committed the Mike's Place terrorist attack entered Israel as ISM activists."

<snip>

The Prime Minister's Office released a statement at the time condemning the ISM for playing an active role in "illegal and violent actions against IDF soldiers...." and for conducting activities "under the auspices of Palestinian terrorist organizations."

<snip>

[Tom Joad]

27. You might understand that the Franklin list is NOT exhaustive.

However, i gave a link where it promotes the work of the Jewish Defense league, which is listed by the FBI and the ADL as a terror organization.
Why isn't that enough? Do you not agree that the JDL is a hate group?
Kaplan was associated with Dafka, on Berkeley Campus. He was not a student. Dafka was kicked out of the Hillel student group due to its extremism. And lack of integrity.

The idea that somehow anyone used ISM as a cover for entering Israel is a bad joke. Anyone who entered Israel and says they are there to work with Palestinians are turned away. The perps who did that bombing also had interaction with Israeli border guards... were they guilty of aiding them? They also had interaction with Jewish Israeli taxi drivers and many others, no doubt. No one knew of their plans.

NO ONE from ISM was even charged in connection with this bombing. Why? Because there is absolutely no evidence to connect ism to the crime, which the ISM condemned.

but folks like Kaplan continue to use innuendo and illogic to press this case.

[IntiRaymi]

35. I don't think the Franklin list is exhaustive, either.

There are some sites that have a marked tendency towards racism and hatred, but are also interesting sources of information. An example of this is 'xymphora,' who appears to be a conduit for rumors, but is also a repository of links towards surprising little factoids.
A better option would be to source an official government listing of groups, and to then judge the site in question as it relates to one of those groups.
It is too easy to make a website, and then take it down. The Franklin list is not published particularly often.

[Tom Joad]

28. The article you site also quotes Kaplan, the JDL member.

I also do not believe that Israel has officially classified ISM as a "terror organization". I would like to see an official Israeli government website that says that. I believe that information is false.
Israeli courts have said that being part of the ISM is not in itself grounds for kicking someone out of the country.

[Tom Joad]

29. that is my last post with you. What good is it to debate someone who

uses a JDL supporter for information?

[Lithos]

38. Comment

The Hate Directory is not the only point of decision. The very nature of the Internet and the specific scope that Franklin uses makes it only a guide, not a definitive source.

Lithos
DU Moderator

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Learn the difference between fact and opinion...

Just coz someone holds an opinion you like, that does not make it fact...

[Tom Joad]

26. I wish these mindless rebuttals to Carter's statements would change the facts on the

ground. But today Israel destroyed Bedouin homes in Israel. Israel continues to build a Wall inside the West Bank. Sanctions imposed by Israel and its allies, along with military attacks, mean the situation in Gaza is dire, with many children at great risk of their health. Farmers are not allowed to work their land due to the annexation wall. people are blocked in their attempts to
go to work
visit a doctor
go to school
visit a friend

So while people here attempt to whitewash the situation, Palestinian children suffer.

[Shaktimaan]

39. Very True.

Likewise, Israel's actions, no matter how grave the consequences, are not the defining mark in determining if they practice Apartheid. Whether or not Israel is justified in continuing the occupation and expanding settlements also does not have any bearing on the topic at hand.

Apartheid is discrimination and segregation based on race.

This definition implies that Apartheid only occurs when the group being discriminated against could be considered equal members of the society in question if not for the difference of race. Palestinians living in the West Bank are segregated and discriminated against, true, but the sole difference between them and many Israelis is not race, but nationality. I don't understand how a nation can be accused of practicing Apartheid against another nation. It's like saying that America is practicing Apartheid against Iraqis because they are not being given representaion in American government or allowed to move to the US.

Bear in mind that the annexation wall was not erected for reasons of race or religion, but security. Now, we can argue about whether or not it is justifiable. But the decision to build it is pretty clearly not based on racism.

Now, if we consider "Palestinian" to be a race, (well, that makes no sense. Let's say they are an "ethnicity" for the sake of argument.) then we can look at other countries and see how they treat Palestinians who live within their borders. Israeli Arabs are mostly Palestinian and have equal rights with Jewish Israelis (at least on paper, so any racism is not institutionalized which makes it more like America than S.Africa.) Other Arab states don't pass the same test. Lebanon for example forbids Palestinians from owning land, working most decent jobs, getting an education, living in areas outside of approved land (refugee camps), voting and having access to the state health care system. This is supposedly done to help them keep their identity as Palestinians. But the result is that they are segregated and oppressed based on their ethnicity alone, within the country's borders.

Apartheid?

[idontwantaname]

40. question of "race"

not that i want to get into such a mess with you, but one could argue to be "jewish" is not a race but a religion. so being said apartheid-like policies are being practiced in the occupied territories. yes if you want to pick at the nitty gritty you can say it isnt about racism,but regardless the policies/acts being committed at reminiscent of apartheid-like policies/acts

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[Lurking Dem]

34. That's 'cuz we're so special.

And stuff. :sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

41. Considering that Mandela himself thinks that Israel maintains an apartheid

regime in place over occupied Palestine, I think the Israelbots have ran out of smears to throw at Jimmy Carter.

[rman]

42. "Apartheid" is not unique

It's simply one of many names for a doctrine based on a sense of superiority of one people over another.
Other names are "racist" and "fascist" (remember the Nazi's concept of "Ubermensch" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cbermensch).


here's Mandela on Apartheid in Israel/Palestine:
http://progressiveaustin.org/mandelap.htm
...
"Perhaps it is strange for you to observe the situation in Palestine or more specifically, the structure of political and cultural relationships between Palestinians and Israelis, as an apartheid system. This is because you incorrectly think that the problem of Palestine began in 1967. This was demonstrated in your recent column "Bush's First Memo" in the New York Times on March 27, 2001."
...
"Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children."
...

[edelsman]

43. What is apartheid? A + part + heid

Now, I am no expert, but hey, that's why I am posting here. It
seems to me that the word "apartheid" is made up of
three morphemes "a" + "part" +
"heid"; "a" being a derivational morpheme
meaning "without" (see "amoral",
"asexual" "a liberal"); "part"
being the root word meaning (well, many meanings here, I
prefer "an amount equal to another amount"); and
"heid" once again being derivational (changing the
adjective/adverb "apart" into an abstract noun (at
least in Afrikaans or Dutch from which the word originates)),
whose translation back into English would be
"without-an-amount-equal-to-another-amount-ness". If
the security mechanisms of the Israeli state preserve the idea
of "without-an-amount-equal-to-another-amount-ness",
then tell me how off the mark Mr. Carter was. 

Dedicated to all my redneck uncles: "Thanks Jimbo!"

[rman]

48. "apartheid" is a Dutch word that means "separation"

I think Carter is right on the mark in saying that Israel practices apartheid.

[edelsman]

53. segregation vs. separation

You are right that it is a Dutch word, but in Dutch it means
"segregation" and not "separation" (a
distinction I think we can all appreciate and perhaps
resonates more accurately in my original message). 

The Dutch use words like "scheiding"
"afscheiding" "afzondering" if they talk
about separation. In this case, however, either way you slice
it, what the Israelis practice is wrong.

[breakaleg]

44. I would hope that Mandela's opinion would carry some weight as he certainly know what he's

talking about.

[furman]

46. See post #45...this was not written by Nelson Mandela n/t

[breakaleg]

47. Thanks for that link. I was not aware.

[furman]

45. This "memo" was not written by Nelson Mandela, it was by a founder of Electronic Intifada

The Mandela memo you linked and quoted was not written by Nelson Mandela.

It was written by Arjan El Fassed, a co-founder of The Electronic Intifada


http://arjansweblog.blogspirit.com/mandela_memo/
...
On 27 March 2001, after reading Friedman's 'mock memo' I wrote a letter entitled Mandela's first memo to Thomas Friedman to the op-ed editor of The New York Times and I posted the memo on the Thomas Friedman Discussion Board of the New York Times, hoping that Thomas Friedman would read it and that the New York Times would publish it. However, after two days, I came to the conclusion that the New York Times would not dare publishing this piece and I sent it on March 30, 2001 to Media Monitors, "a Platform for Serious Media Contributors", an online daily, which regularly published my contributions.

Soon, however, I found the 'mock memo' I wrote and which clearly indicated that I wrote it, on various listservers and websites. For example, I found my 'mock memo' on the website of Houston Peace and Justice Center, Progressive Activism in Austin, TX, and listservers such as soc.culture and Indymedia and in different languages, for example German (in which it was claimed that the author is from South Africa) or Spanish. Later, I even found it on the website of the Palestinian Authority's Ministry of Information. Again, without mentioning the original author.

The main purpose of the Mandela-memo was to respond in a satirical way to Thomas Friedman using the exact same style and even phrases he uses in his columns. Obviously, the 'mock memo' had been forwarded to several e-mail lists containing the memo, which originally included the title "Mandela's First Memo to Thomas Friedman" and a byline "by Arjan El Fassed", but eventually was forwarded without my name and sometimes without title.
...


The original piece can be found here:
http://www.mediamonitors.net/arjan28.html

Mandela's First Memo to Thomas Friedman

by Arjan El Fassed

Memo to: Thomas L. Friedman (columnist New York Times)
From: Nelson Mandela (former President South Africa)

Dear Thomas,

I know that you and I long for peace in the Middle East, but before you continue to talk about necessary conditions from an Israeli perspective, you need to know what's on my mind. Where to begin? How about 1964. Let me quote my own words during my trial. They are true today as they were then:
...
The author is a Dutch-Palestinian political scientist, human rights activist and is affiliated to the the Palestine Right to Return Coalition (Al-Awda) and ElectronicIntifada.net

[rman]

49. Still Mandela supports the cause of the Palestinian people

ADDRESS BY PRESIDENT NELSON MANDELA AT THE INTERNATIONAL DAY OF SOLIDARITY WITH THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE

http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/1997/sp971204b.html

Pretoria, 4 December 1997

Mr. Chairman;
Mr. Suleyman al-Najab,
Special Emissary of President Yasser Arafat;
Members of the diplomatic corps;
Distinguished Guests,

We have assembled once again as South Africans, our Palestinian guests and as humanists to express our solidarity with the people of Palestine.

I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the organisers of the event, particularly the United Nations Information Centre and the UNISA Centre for Arabic and Islamic Studies for this magnificent act of compassion, to keep the flames of solidarity, justice and freedom burning.

The temptation in our situation is to speak in muffled tones about an issue such as the right of the people of Palestine to a state of their own. We can easily be enticed to read reconciliation and fairness as meaning parity between justice and injustice. Having achieved our own freedom, we can fall into the trap of washing our hands of difficulties that others faces.

Yet we would be less than human if we did so.

It behoves all South Africans, themselves erstwhile beneficiaries of generous international support, to stand up and be counted among those contributing actively to the cause of freedom and justice.

Even during the days of negotiations, our own experience taught us that the pursuit of human fraternity and equality - irrespective of race or religion - should stand at the centre of our peaceful endeavours. The choice is not between freedom and justice, on the one hand, and their opposite, on the other. Peace and prosperity; tranquility and security are only possible if these are enjoyed by all without discrimination.

It is in this spirit that I have come to join you today to add our own voice to the universal call for Palestinian self-determination and statehood.

We would be beneath our own reason for existence as government and as a nation, if the resolution of the problems of the Middle East did not feature prominently on our agenda.

When in 1977, the United Nations passed the resolution inaugurating the International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian people, it was asserting the recognition that injustice and gross human rights violations were being perpetrated in Palestine. In the same period, the UN took a strong stand against apartheid; and over the years, an international consensus was built, which helped to bring an end to this iniquitous system.

But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians; without the resolution of conflicts in East Timor, the Sudan and other parts of the world.

We are proud as a government, and as the overwhelming majority of South Africans to be part of an international consensus taking root that the time has come to resolve the problems of Palestine.



We hope that, by this humble act, we are strengthening the voice of peace and friendship in Israel and Palestine; so that, as we enter the new millennium, we shall all have taken a giant stride towards a world in which our humanity will be the hallmark of our relations across colour, religious and other divides.

I thank you.
Issued by: Office of the President

[furman]

50. Nelson Mandela on Israeli Withdrawal

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Quote/mandelaq.html">“I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders.”
Nelson Mandela (AP, October 19, 1999)

[Tom Joad]

51. Virtual Lies. Sorry, when Israel illegalizes Palesitnians from even traveling

on roads built in land that has been stolen from them, even if they are with Jewish Israeli friends, it is time to admit it is a system of racist laws. And it certainly is not limited to restrictions of travel. It includes the demolitions of homes, the destruction of crops, mass imprisonment of all who resist without trial...
You can skip using the Dutch word for it, but call anyone honest will call it a system of hate and legalized, institutionalized racism.

As for the virtual misrepresentation of Nelson Mandala's views, who was held imprisoned by the Israeli allies, this is a more accurate and reliable source than the virtual propaganda machine:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9910/20/mandela.arafat/

Former South African leader calls on Israel to pull out of occupied lands

October 20, 1999
Web posted at: 9:34 p.m. EDT (0134 GMT)

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Palestinians gave Nelson Mandela a hero's welcome when he visited Gaza Wednesday, and the former South African president said he would press Israel to release all Palestinian prisoners.

"It is a realization of a dream for me to be here to come and pledge my solidarity with my friend Yasser Arafat," Mandela said.

Mandela also addressed a special session of the Palestinian assembly, telling legislators that "the histories of our two peoples correspond in such painful and poignant ways that I intensely feel myself at home amongst my compatriots."

Mandela, who fought against white minority rule in his homeland, and Arafat, the Palestinian leader, say they nurtured each other through some of their most difficult times as each worked toward the goal of self-determination for their peoples.

Though his speech to the assembly was strongly supportive of the Middle East peace process, Mandela elicited thunderous applause when he stated his opinion that violence becomes an option when peace talks break down.

"Our men and women with vision choose peace rather than confrontation, except in cases where we cannot get, where we cannot proceed, where we cannot move forward," he said.

"Then, if the only alternative is violence, we will use violence," he said. That earned two thunderous minutes of rhythmic applause.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

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[Tom Joad]

57. Mandala opposes the terror of the Israeli state, that is quite clear, and supports a

people's right to resist oppression.

I skeptical that Mandala actually said the quote sourced from the JVL, and even if he did we are missing the surrounding context if he did (not to mention the date, or anything else). The source i gave i think is a bit more reliable than a website dedicated to supporting Israeli policy.

[furman]

54. Tom Joad, run this google query, and then retract your "Virtual Lies" smear

run this Google search

Here is what is on the first page of Google search results:

Quotes : Judengelb : CafePress.com
“I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel within secure borders.” John F. Kennedy · John F. Kennedy ...
www.cafepress.com/judengelb/1683499 - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
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j. - Mandela bears message of peace in first visit to Israel
"I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel within secure borders," Mandela said after meeting with Israeli Foreign ...
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"I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognise Israel, within secure borders." "A good head and a good heart are always a ...
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www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Quote/mandelaq.html - 5k - Cached - Similar pages
Santa Cruz Indymedia: Becky, if you only knew how **RACIST** you ...
Here's another quote from Nelson Mandela: "I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders." " ...
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You see, Tom Joad? This quote is everywhere. It's not just from Jewish Virtual Library.

[Tom Joad]

56. None of those quotes is dated. None has the context of the alleged quote.

one of your sources, "Becky" is a strong supporter of the Jewish Defense League, which while popular with a few people here, is a terrorist organization.

I would like to see the context of the quote, and it dated. Where did Mandela say this, what were his remarks besides that?

[oberliner]

61. Here is an excerpt of the article with the quote from the Associated Press Archive site

This is the free excerpt from the Associated Press Archive web site:

Mandela says Israel must give up Arab land -- but only for peace

Author: RON KAMPEAS Associated Press Writer
Date: October 19, 1999
Publication: Associated Press Archive

Israel is right to ask for recognition from the Arabs in exchange for land, Nelson Mandela said today, lending moral support to Prime Minister Ehud Barak's demand for peace with Syria.

Mandela, who retired from the South African presidency in June, is touring the region as a private citizen -- albeit, a private citizen with guaranteed access to each of the leaders of the region. "I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel ...

<end of excerpt>

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=APAB&p_action=keyword&p_theme=apab&

You have to pay (and register) to read the entire article.

[Englander]

66. NYT archives, if anyone wants to see what is said there -

Mandela Visits Israel With Praise but Rifts Linger

October 20, 1999, Wednesday
By WILLIAM A. ORME JR. (NYT); Foreign Desk
Late Edition - Final, Section A, Page 8, Column 3, 1156 words

DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - Former South African Pres Nelson Mandela concludes first visit to Israel; despite his praise for Prime Min Ehud Barak and Pres Ezer Weisman for peacemaking efforts and warm reception, visit was marked by undercurrents of distrust between Mandela--staunch champion of Palestinian cause--and country that once armed apartheid Govt that he drove from power and has maintained diplomatic ties with it; Mandela reiterated unwavering opposition to Israeli control of Gaza, West Bank, Golan Heights and southern Lebanon before leaving for visit in Gaza with Yasir Arafat

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50A10F93E5D0C738EDDA90994D1494D81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fB%2fBarak%2c%20Ehud

[Englander]

65. Here's the article the quote is taken from, with the context.

' Friday October 22, 1999

>snip

Mandela later traveled to the Gaza Strip, where he met with Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat.

A longtime supporter of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Mandela told reporters that "Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank."

At the same time, Mandela said that Israel is correct in asking for recognition from Arab nations.

"I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel within secure borders," Mandela said after meeting with Israeli Foreign Minister David Levy.

On another note, Mandela expressed his "fascination" with development in Israel, saying the state could be an "economic powerhouse" in the Middle East.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=157928&mesg_id=162910

[Violet_Crumble]

60. For goodness sake, I can find fake quotes from Ben Gurion on multiple sites...

Just because a quote is everywhere doesn't make it true. This should be basic common sense...

[oberliner]

62. You can confirm the quote by searching the AP archives

I agree with you about there being a lot of fake quotes about Ben Guiron on multiple sites.

This quote from Mandela, however, can be confirmed by searching the AP archives.

There is, I think, a danger though in taking his words out of the context of everything else he said in that visit to the region.

[furman]

55. Mandela pledged solidarity with Yasser Arafat, the arch-terrorist committed to destruction of Israel

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9910/20/mandela.arafat
"It is a realization of a dream for me to be here to come and pledge my solidarity with my friend Yasser Arafat," Mandela said.


It is inconceivable for anyone who truly wishes for a peaceful solution to the conflict to express solidarity with Arafat.
Yasser Arafat was a terrorist mastermind committed to the destruction of Israel. He brought terrorism to new heights.


This piece sums up how Arafat should be remembered:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/11/11/arafat_the_monster/
Arafat the monster

By Jeff Jacoby, Globe Columnist | November 11, 2004

YASSER ARAFAT died at age 75, lying in bed surrounded by familiar faces. He left this world peacefully, unlike the thousands of victims he sent to early graves.

In a better world, the PLO chief would have met his end on a gallows, hanged for mass murder much as the Nazi chiefs were hanged at Nuremberg. In a better world, the French president would not have paid a visit to the bedside of such a monster. In a better world, George Bush would not have said, on hearing the first reports that Arafat had died, "God bless his soul."

God bless his soul? What a grotesque idea! Bless the soul of the man who brought modern terrorism to the world? Who sent his agents to slaughter athletes at the Olympics, blow airliners out of the sky, bomb schools and pizzerias, machine-gun passengers in airline terminals? Who lied, cheated, and stole without compunction? Who inculcated the vilest culture of Jew-hatred since the Third Reich? Human beings might stoop to bless a creature so evil -- as indeed Arafat was blessed, with money, deference, even a Nobel Prize -- but God, I am quite sure, will damn him for eternity.

...

It would take an encyclopedia to catalog all of the evil Arafat committed. But that is no excuse for not trying to recall at least some of it.

Perhaps his signal contribution to the practice of political terror was the introduction of warfare against children. On one black date in May 1974, three PLO terrorists slipped from Lebanon into the northern Israeli town of Ma'alot. They murdered two parents and a child whom they found at home, then seized a local school, taking more than 100 boys and girls hostage and threatening to kill them unless a number of imprisoned terrorists were released. When Israeli troops attempted a rescue, the terrorists exploded hand grenades and opened fire on the students. By the time the horror ended, 25 people were dead; 21 of them were children.

Thirty years later, no one speaks of Ma'alot anymore. The dead children have been forgotten. Everyone knows Arafat's name, but who ever recalls the names of his victims?

So let us recall them: Ilana Turgeman. Rachel Aputa. Yocheved Mazoz. Sarah Ben-Shim'on. Yona Sabag. Yafa Cohen. Shoshana Cohen. Michal Sitrok. Malka Amrosy. Aviva Saada. Yocheved Diyi. Yaakov Levi. Yaakov Kabla. Rina Cohen. Ilana Ne'eman. Sarah Madar. Tamar Dahan. Sarah Soper. Lili Morad. David Madar. Yehudit Madar. The 21 dead children of Ma'alot -- 21 of the thousands of who died at Arafat's command.

[Tom Joad]

58. Funny, one minute you are quoting Mandala, then you are condemning him.

He was not a friend of the state that was so supportive of the apartheid South Africa. I don't know why you should be so surprised.

[Englander]

64. And the rest -

' Friday October 22, 1999

>snip

Mandela later traveled to the Gaza Strip, where he met with Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat.

A longtime supporter of the Palestine Liberation Organization, Mandela told reporters that "Israel should withdraw from all the areas which it won from the Arabs in 1967, and in particular Israel should withdraw completely from the Golan Heights, from south Lebanon and from the West Bank."

At the same time, Mandela said that Israel is correct in asking for recognition from Arab nations.

"I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel within secure borders," Mandela said after meeting with Israeli Foreign Minister David Levy.

On another note, Mandela expressed his "fascination" with development in Israel, saying the state could be an "economic powerhouse" in the Middle East.

http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/12309/edition_id/237/format/html/displaystory.html

[Violet_Crumble]

59. But Nelson Mandela does think it's apartheid...

In this article by Desmond Tutu and Ian Urbina :

'Many South Africans are beginning to recognize the parallels to what we went through. Ronnie Kasrils and Max Ozinsky, two Jewish heroes of the anti-apartheid struggle, recently published a letter titled "Not in My Name." Signed by several hundred other prominent Jewish South Africans, the letter drew an explicit analogy between apartheid and current Israeli policies. Mark Mathabane and Nelson Mandela have also pointed out the relevance of the South African experience. '

http://www.merip.org/newspaper_opeds/Tutu_IU_Israeli_Apartheid.html

[rman]

63. delete

[Tom Joad]

67. And so does the former Education Minister of Israel, so i think this case is closed.

Next.