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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:42 PM
Original message
Ahmadinejad acknowledges the Holocaust in letter to Merkel.
Western headlines have chosen to report Ahmadinejine's recent letter to Chancellor Merkel as Holocaust denial. Yet he acknowledges over and over in his letter that the Holocaust happened. Is it not propaganda to take one word out of 2849 and defining it in a highly questionable manner to make a headline that clearly misrepresents the content and spirit of the letter?

full text: http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8506060558

Below are excerpts wherein he acknowledges the Holocaust:

...The propaganda machinery after World War II has been so colossal that has caused some people to believe that they are the guilty party by historical accounts and must pay the penalty fort the wrongs committed by their forefathers for successive generations and for indefinite period of time.

...In addition to the people of Germany, the peoples of the Middle East have also borne the brunt of the Holocaust. By raising the necessity of settling the survivors of the Holocaust in the land of Palestine, they have created a permanent threat in the Middle East in order to rob the people of the region of the opportunities to achieve progress.

...The question is why did the victors of the war, especially England that had apparently such a strong sense of responsibility toward the survivors of the Holocaust not allow them to settle in their territory. Why did they force them to migrate to other people's land by launching a wave of anti-Semitism? Using the excuse for the settlement of the survivors of the Holocaust, they encouraged the Jews worldwide to migrate and today a large part of the inhabitants of the occupied territories are non-European Jews. If tyranny and killing is condemned in one part of the world, can we acquiesce and go along with tyranny, killing, occupation and assassinations in another part of the world simply in order to redress the past wrongs?

We need to ask ourselves that for what purposes the millions of dollars that the Zionists receive from the treasury of some Western countries are spent for. Are they used for the promotion of peace and the well-being of the people? Or are they used for waging war against Palestinians and the neighboring countries. Are the nuclear arsenals of Israel intended to be used in defense of the survivors of the Holocaust or as a permanent thereat against nations of the region and as an instrument of coercion, and possibly to defend the interests of certain circles of power in the Western countries.


Why, after all these references to the Holocaust do the Western press and so many posters on DU choose to focus on one sentence:

I have no intention of arguing about the Holocaust. But, does it not stand to reason that some victorious countries of World War II intended to create an alibi on the basis of which they could continue keeping the defeated nations of World War II indebted to them.

So what does he mean by 'alibi'? In other speeches, people focus on his use of the word 'myth', maintaining that that single word indicates holocaust denial. Imagine, out of a 2850 word speech, they are so desperate to hear the words 'holocaust denial' they focus on a single word - alibi - ignoring the overwhelming context of his acknowledging the holocaust.

When I read his speeches, I understand him to be using 'alibi' and 'myth' in their most common meanings:

myth: a story dealing with the ideas and beliefs of how something originated.
alibi: formal statement of evidence

He talks of the Holocaust being used to justify oppression. I have trouble seeing this as denial.

But I understand that powerful forces desperately need to demonize him to justify war. So this is all we see in the headlines. Instead of defining alibi as 'reason' or 'basis', they choose to change it to 'invented' and 'made up'.

This is from his speech:

But, does it not stand to reason that some victorious countries of World War II intended to create an alibi on the basis of which they could continue keeping the defeated nations of World War II indebted to them.

Now this is how it's changed:

1. Deutsche-Welle: Ahmadinejad Claims Holocaust Invented to Embarass Germany
"Is it not a reasonable possibility that some countries that had won the war made up this excuse to constantly embarrass the defeated people ... to bar their progress," Ahmadinejad said in the letter.
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2149241,00.htm...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

2. Bloomberg: Ahmadinejad Calls Holocaust `Excuse' to Keep Germans `Ashamed'
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=ats...

3. Jerusalem Post: Ahmandinejad claims allies invented the Holocaust
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=115452596002...

4. AFP: Ahmadinejad says Holocaust 'made up to embarrass Germany'
http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/germany/10506

A final quotation from his letter to Merkel:

In all divine religions and before all awakened conscience and pure nature of mankind and the sense of right and wrong, the life, property and honor of people, regardless of their religious persuasion and ethnic background, must be respected at all times and all places.

But we won't read this in Western reports of his letter.
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Viva_La_Revolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. interesting.
thanks.
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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because no one cares about the fine print.
They didn't give Hitler a fair shake either. The fine print of what he said to foreign leaders and media was much more reasonable than it was portrayed in pre-war years... not like it helped the ultimate result one bit.

So no, they're not going to care about the fine print for this "new Hitler" either.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
3. I Thought That Report Earlier Smelled Funny (nt)
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Thank you for making a noble effort to counter the mainstream propaganda.
I salute you -- k & r.

sw
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
5. Ben Gurion said the same thing far before him
"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" -David Ben Gurion, Prime Minister of Israel 1948-1963.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Everybody likes to claim God is on their side.
Whenever some horrific atrocity is committed against another, they like to claim God as justification.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. gotta admit that the guy was a least honest....
but if exactly the same words were used by a muslim or somebody disagreeing with Israel policies he/she is normally branded as an anti-semite that should be nuked until he/she glows in the dark...
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. Everytime the same thing.
I have no doubt that Ahmadinejad is an Islamic fundamentalist and the Iranian regime is a vile theocracy, but the consistent pattern is that the western media deliberately and relentlessly misquote and mistranslate and misinterpret what this man says. We are being played for fools and they are getting their war on, and the propaganda campaign against Ahmadinejad is all part of the game.
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. This Is A Complex Situation.
On one hand, you have monumentally spun statements from him in the media that overwhelmingly want to cast only one extreme side of reality on the reader. Reading his full text was an eye opener for me, compared to the multitude of articles I come across referencing it. Quite enlightening as to the truth of the matter. Our media/government is most definitely using propaganda to beat the drum for war.

On the other hand, however, you do have an extreme Islamic Fundamentalist that harbors nothing but utter hatred for the Jewish people, and that wouldn't hesitate to nuke the shit out of Israel if he had the capability.

That's why I consider this complex. The media is totally out of control with him by twisting his words and editorializing in an extremely propagandic way, yet that still doesn't eradicate the fact that if he had enough power, he could/would be every single bit as dangerous to the world as shrubby's been.

I'm a fan of neither side.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. If Ahmadinejad believes the Holocaust to be an invention,
but wanted to describe the consequences of this (invented) Holocaust, surely he would still refer to it in this way? If I was describing the behaviour of the tooth fairy, I would refer to the tooth fairy. Ahmadinejad would certainly be conscious of the sensitivity of the Holocaust as an issue in Israel and Europe, and if this watery "confirmation" is the best that native Farsi speakers, spinning like billy-o on a censored .ir news site, can do, then I think it's fair to assume that the original leaves less room for parsing.

To put it another way, if Ahmadinejad really did believe the full 6 million-version Holocaust reality, wouldn't it be better for him to state this belief a little more strongly? It would aid his rather poor relations with the EU and/or Germany, which presumably is what he wants. He's hardly shied from straight-talking in the past, why this shilly-shallying on a very important issue?

Frankly, it doesn't really matter if he believes the Holocaust or not; the fact is that he wants to cause another one, and we should not be entertaining fantasies that he is anything less than extremely dangerous and extremely bigoted.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. I'm inclined to believe that all sides
are extremely bigoted. Bigotry goes hand in hand with propaganda.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #27
38. I can't argue with that, and thanks for notion that this IS propaganda,
a fact that has escaped some other DUers.
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MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ahmadinejad is a Murderous Thug
For whatever reason, I've never been under the impression that Ahmedinajad denied that the Holocaust ever occured; rather, I understood that he believed that it was overblown. Which it clearly was not. This is merely revisionist history, which is perhaps the least of his sins.

Let's get down to brass tacks:

Amadinejad wants to get rid of Israel:

As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map

"Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury."

The Iranians have supplied more than 12,000 missiles (and lots of other weaponry) to Hezbollah. Hezbollah has vowed to destroy Israel, and to murder every Jew on Earth.

Moreover, Amadinejad loves to watch others kill themselves in the process of killing innocent civilians:

"Martyrdom is the peak of mankind's perfection and the martyrs enjoy the highest status of humanity in this world and the Hereafter... People spend tough years of strenuous work in a bid to achieve the peaks of grandeur and pride, while our dear martyrs achieved those high peaks in shortest possible time."

Amadinejad is not some poor misinterpreted seeker of truth and justice; he is a thug bent on murder.
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. He advertised this belief in a full-page ad in a Tehran newspaper.
It's a bit difficult to parse a full-page ad. He's a denier, pure and simple.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. This sort of hate stuff happens.
everywhere all the time. Bush himself is a Great Demonizer. He wasn't in office for a month until he publically declared who was on his list of 'evil terrorist' nations; setting the stage for his political ambitions.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
13. Maybe he's talking about the MYTH of the holocaust being used to
justify Israel.

I mean if you read the MIHOP/LIHOP faithful they will talk over and over again about how 9/11 was used to justify a lot of really bad stuff (and I agree that it was), but that doesn't mean that they believe the official story about what happened.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. You put it far more clearly than my attempt. n/t
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thank you for the compliment. n/t
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. Which makes him a Holocaust denier and Nazi apologist.
His defenders really ought to be ashamed. Deeply ashamed.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Yea verily
thanks
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Andromeda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
43. That really is the stupidest
explanation I've ever heard to justify this Iranian toad's tirades against Israel. What lengths people like you will go to candy-coat hateful anti-Semitic statements by one of the most disgusting pieces of filth in the ME.

Unreal, simply unreal.
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NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-28-06 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks. I'm sure we all don't appreciate being manipulated by propaganda.
ain't somebody i'd want to crack open a beer with (a-ha, ha, ha... feel the droll humor), but i ain't gonna be a willing participant in whipping up a propaganda shitstorm for convenient excuses to go to war.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
17. Thanks for setting the record straight. It is clear that Bushco wants to
demonize Ahmadinejad so there will be less resistance to demolishing a fourth Muslim country.
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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. PNAC marches on.
I'd love to read more about what the guy REALLY says.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. How about the Iranian government's
website:

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:6MVZ8KiDELsJ:www.i...

"Ahmadinejad referred to more than five million Palestinians who have become homeless over the past 60 years and urged the need to stop the Zionist regime's genocide in the occupied lands.

The president voiced Iran's opposition to bloodshed and killing people irrespective of their being Muslims, Jews, Christians or followers of any other religion and asked, "We are curious to know why out of dozens of millions of victims of the World War II, just the loss of lives of the six million people whose genocide has not yet been verified is of importance."


Ahmadinejad can go to hell, and so can his supporters here.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. No, Ahmadinejad really is a Holocaust denier.
Some people are just willing to excuse Holocaust denial if the person hates Bush.
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cassowary Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
46. Don't be naive
Iran under the mullahs is a danger to all of us.
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. Dishonest propaganda defending a Holocaust denier.

This is a dishonest attempt to whitewash this pig's blatant Holocaust denial. Your hero and his mullah allies are Holocaust denying pigs. Read it and weep.

ALL CITES FROM THE IRANIAN OFFICIAL NEWS AGENCY.

Example A.

"A number of world scholars and journalists have expressed support for Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's remarks on the Holocaust.

The president last month said that the Holocaust was a "myth" fabricated by the West and Europe.

Israel Shamir, a leading Russian-Israeli intellectual and journalist, wrote to say he admired the stance of the Iranian president with regard to the Holocaust, Mehr News Agency reported.

In a letter expressing support for President Ahmadinejad's view, he lauded the Iranian nation and leadership as "dignified" while blasting the Israeli regime as "bloodthirsty killers."
Shamir visited Iran in 1973 and 1974. His varied assignments as as a freelance writer has brought him to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia during the last stages of the war in South East Asia.

While in Moscow in 1989-1993, he reported for the Israeli daily `Haaretz' but was sacked for publishing an article calling for the Palestinians refugees to be allowed to return and rebuild their ruined villages.

They have made a myth of the Holocaust and because of their view they have opposed `revisionists' on the event, Shamir noted in his letter.

Another scholar, German in origin, Dr Fredrick Toben, in a separate letter called the Holocaust a "lie" and described the event as a "legend."
An Australian citizen, Fredrick, has also edited a revisionist journal called `Truth Missions' which was later renamed Adelaide Institute newsletter.

He said he has personally visited Auschwitz, burrowed himself under the ruins of the alleged gas chamber, but was unable to find the four holes in the roof which were supposedly used to throw in gas pellets.

He was found guilty of "denying the Holocaust" by a German court in 1999 in Berlin.

Ahmad Rami, a former Moroccan officer, in a letter also announced his full support for the remarks made by Iranian President Ahmadinejad on the Holocaust, calling it a "big lie."
Living in exile in Sweden as a political dissident, he criticized the information monopoly of the Zionists in Sweden and launched `Radio Islam' there aimed at spreading information about Zionism, Jewish racism and the so-called Holocaust.

In a letter to Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, German lawyer Horst Mehler denied the Holocaust, saying that it was aimed to damage the German people.

"Mr Ahmadinejad has helped the revisionists. The Holocaust has never happened and is considered the biggest lie throughout history.

The Germans should fight the fabricated story of the Holocaust to protect their country," said Mehler in his letter.

Many historians have been forced to keep silent and many of them have been jailed for telling the truth (denying the Holocaust), he noted in the letter.

Mehler courageously denied the Holocaust at the opening of his trial in the Berlin State Court.

"It is a lie that we systematically murdered six million Jews," he said in the court.

Prosecutors warned the defendant he faced further charges if he continued with such statements since a law in Germany punishes anybody denying the Holocaust."
Some so-called progressives have no fucking shame at all.

Read it and weep. Your hero is a Holocaust denier.

Example B

"There are still questions... maybe in your so-called Holocaust more than six million Jews were massacred (during World War II), so why do you not allow people to undertake new research?" he asked."

Example C

"Holocaust is a fabricated myth of the Zionists in a bid to push forth their evil intentions, said a senior cleric here on Friday.

"Assumed massacre of six million Jews in Germany after imposing hard labor against them in concentration camps, known as Holocaust, is a sheer historic lie," said Supreme Leader's representative in Fars Province and Friday Prayer leader of Shiraz Ayatollah Mohyeddin Ha'eri Shirazi in an address to large groups of Friday prayers worshipers."

Example D
"Ahmadinejad referred to more than five million Palestinians who have become homeless over the past 60 years and urged the need to stop the Zionist regime's genocide in the occupied lands. [br />
The president voiced Iran's opposition to bloodshed and killing people irrespective of their being Muslims, Jews, Christians or followers of any other religion and asked, "We are curious to know why out of dozens of millions of victims of the World War II, just the loss of lives of the six million people whose genocide has not yet been verified is of importance."

The sheer indecency of some people on the left continues to shock me.




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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
23. lost in translation
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. He talks about the "so-called" Holocaust.
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/06071443551756...

""There are still questions... maybe in your so-called Holocaust more than six million Jews were massacred (during World War II), so why do you not allow people to undertake new research?" he asked."

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is Farsi for David Duke.

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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. why was that a reply to my post?
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
25. The holocaust and anti-semitism
are possibly being used as politcal tools. I believe that is what Ahmadinejad is implying. I would say according to the translated letter sent to Merkel, that his words were deliberately 'lost in translation'. Now why would the Jerusalem Post, Bloomberg, European Jewish P and pro-Israel/anti-Iran/press blogs do such a thing? It seems that many arguments used in defense of Israel's actions quite often end up with the mention of the holocaust and anti-semitism.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. The only people who should be ashamed are the news outlets that
Edited on Tue Aug-29-06 03:19 PM by breakaleg
deliberately misquoted.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but much of the text quoted above it accurate and not anti-Semitic. He's certainly entitled to those opinions.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
30. Um... Why is this Placed in the Israeli/Palestine Forum? (nt)
Edited on Tue Aug-29-06 05:36 PM by stepnw1f
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Because that is where it belongs.
The entire locus of the issue is Israel, and the engine driving this is its treatment of Palestinians.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. "Ahmadinejad acknowledges the Holocaust in letter to Merkel"
That's what the article is about, so I disagree... and I'd like to see this in the general discussion forum so it gets mor exposure. It being placed in a particular forum is almost hiding it from the majority of DUers.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
31. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. Why is this classified as I/P? Then locked, then unlocked?
I'm glad it's been unlocked, at least. 11 Recommanedations too. Can changes be made to the I/P rules to reflect whatever criteria are being used now days to move threads into I/P?

:shrug:

PB
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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-29-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. I am also glad it got unlocked.
I was about to have a major conniption over this, since it appeared to follow all the rules stated for posting in the I/P forum.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. That is a political reference
Edited on Wed Aug-30-06 12:42 AM by Lithos
Not a historical reference. There is a huge difference between the two. I would be very careful for reading too much into it. The translation and the context have been carefully chosen. Had there been a real attempt to bridge the historical issue, the language would have been different.

Given Mr. Ahmadinejad's "parsing" vocabulary concerning the Holocaust and his promotion of other anti-Semitic memes including statements that Zionists are out to control the world and that they are working with Western powers to subvert/subject Islam confirms he is no friend of Progressives. He is a bigot and a reactionary whose fundamentalist-conservative political party rode to power on the langauge of fear in a way which parallels the GOPUSA's use of patriotism and religion coupled with an outside threat to our culture to try and create a political juggernaut. And like the GOPUSA and others who govern based on fear, he is not a builder but a user and an abuser.

There is nothing progressive about Bush even more so about Mr. Ahmadinejad. The longer both men and their cronies continue to have influence, the more people will die. Am I saying Mr. Ahmadinejad should go? Yes, but at the hands of the Iranian voters. The real builders are people like Mr. Khatami who has labeled from Mr. Ahmadinejad's remarks as anti-Semitic and publicly distanced himself from them.


L-
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. And in your opinion is Olmert a friend to Progressives?
  When people post threads like this one, I think the motivations have far less to do with a desire to portray Ahmaninejad as philo-Progressive and chiefly an attempt to rotate his image a little farther away from political fiction and toward something more realistic. The same thing happened prior to Gulf War II with Saddam- many posters covered topics which could have been misconstrued as arguing the Iraqi case (for instance, focusing on the details of the U.N. inspectors' withdrawal at the behest of the U.S. who indicated that they could not assure their safety vs. the publicly repeated falsehood that Saddam had kicked the inspectors out of Iraq). These were interpreted by some as propaganda by Iraqi apologists but in reality I see Progressives of any stripe much more concerned with a balanced truthful accounting of situations so as to make informed decisions outside, as much as possible, the subjectivity inherent in being consumers of a product made from a marriage of convenience between right-wing politics and the mainstream media.

  The same situations present themselves when discussing I/P- or more realistically the depot for discussion of the simmering conflicts in the Middle East that the I/P forum has been ad hoc converted into as the conflict broadens. I have seen many posts now recently including in their definition of perceived anti-Semitism to include repeated posting of information critical of the Israeli government, Israeli religious institutions, etc. The majority of these exist to provide a counterpoint to spin or perceived spin and turn a perspective, if only a little, away from a political fiction and toward something approaching a truthful depiction of a situation. Misperceptions of this, like the examples in the preceding paragraph, the result of an inflexible perspective's defense mechanism.

  But back to Ahmaninejad. If it were not for threads posted by Progressives, curious about what the real facts of a matter might be, the story that the Iranian Parliament had passed a law stating that non-Muslims had to wear flair would have been unquestioningly gobbled up as Truth. Arguably few if none who probed more deeply into the matter did so out of a desire to portray Ahmaninejad in anything but a realistic light. The desire to understand who Ahmaninejad really is, sometimes despite his own political posturing, will continue.

PB
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. What is your form of realistic light?
Can you explain the apologetics by people of Mr. Ahmadinejad without any attempt to provide a counter-balance of facts to paint a full (realistic) picture of the man? Professor Cole is very forthright in his very negative condemnation of the man and his politics and usually focuses more about the (usually negative) net effects of Mr. Ahmadinejad on Iranian politics (both foreigh and domestic) than about trying to parse specifics of his words from a handful of selected speeches.

Yes there is a misunderstanding of some of what he is saying, but there is also an apparent bias in the scope people are focusing on with regards to Ahmadinejad's politics and philosophy. Where is the discussion of the audience of Mr. Ahmadinejad, or what he is trying to communicate? Where is the focus of who his audience is? Who else in Iranian politics is agreeing/disagreeing with him?

Truthfully, the net effect appears to be more a desire to defend Mr. Ahmadinejad's Holocaust and anti-Semitic statements rather than any attempt to understand or how polemics plays in Middle Eastern politics.

L-










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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. In response...
Can you explain the apologetics by people of Mr. Ahmadinejad without any attempt to provide a counter-balance of facts to paint a full (realistic) picture of the man?


  Aside from repeating the entire first paragraph of my previous response, it is worth pointing out that neither messages accusing him of anti-Semitism in public declarations recently or providing contradictory information against those assertions. Point, counterpoint. The truth lies between the two. I have thoughts on this point, counterpoint and misperceptions based on readers of such posting styles here in which discussion centered on whether or not the DU threads critical of terror alerts really constituted a popular belief at DU that terrorist were really not a threat to the United States. I covered both the misperceptions of those threads, and the ideologies of the posters responsible for them but also common misperceptions present in the point, counterpoint discussion which exists in regards to the Israeli/Palestinian issue. The same misperception exists on any issue and the Ahmadinejad issue is no different.

  I think it is overly critical and a cause for re-evaluation of the data when one begins to believe that some sizable percentage of the DU authorship is motivated by some protective sympathy for the President of Iran. However, it does make more sense to me that Progressives posting on this site are hyper-aware of the propaganda machine responsible for the Hitlerizing of Saddam Hussein and manufacturing consent for another Gulf War. That the next way-point on Bush's infamous Axis of Evil is now also conveniently Hitlerizing himself, or at least appears to be according to the mainstream media, is naturally bound to cause Progressives still well aware of the propaganda machine's influence to question such a serendipity.

Yes there is a misunderstanding of some of what he is saying, but there is also an apparent bias in the scope people are focusing on with regards to Ahmadinejad's politics and philosophy.


  My view of Ahmadinejad has always been that his opinions on the Shoah are the least of our worries with him. I believe he is a very intelligent, creative, manipulative individual who invites a one dimensional representation of himself in the West, courts it. It is also my belief that his Chinese and Russian friends and advisers are more than happy in helping him play our and Israel's predictable responses like a fiddle. But I feel, and I've stated this in previous messages, that the concept that Ahmadinejad is a one-dimensional political character who exists only as an anti-Semite is dangerously dismissive way to view him. His antagonism of the United States and Israel, specifically, to me anyway, indicates a strategy founded, among others, by the Russians and the Chinese who must be fairly shitting them self with hard laughter as they watch our country expensively shadow-boxing its way into financial oblivion and military impotence, buying our debt from us and teaching well a refined version of rhetoric guaranteed to cause a fading empire to hazard one last swipe at a now-taunting world- and stumble to its knees in the process.

  And that is just what the Bush and Olmert administrations are willing to do. Ahmadinejad's critical commentary is juiced -up by the mainstream media something that I've said before, he invites. What the Israelis cannot accept is that any other country in the Middle East would have nuclear weapons and that is just something they're going to have to get used to. The United States cannot accept that Israel would have anything less than superiority in the region. Both countries cannot afford to think like empires, because they are no longer individually empires or collectively one. They are remnants of a short-lived colonial empire, a spin-off of the original British Empire, and very much on the decline. An empire on the decline will make some very dangerous moves to regain control. Russia, China know this well.

Where is the discussion of the audience of Mr. Ahmadinejad, or what he is trying to communicate? Where is the focus of who his audience is? Who else in Iranian politics is agreeing/disagreeing with him?


  I've addressed what portions I may of those questions in my comments above. As to your last question, I think some of how this plays internally was reported in an old JPost story debunking the "Christians, Jews made to wear flair" propaganda:

"Ahmadinejad lives off these kinds of attacks from Israel," he said. In terms of Ahmadinejad's desire to be seen as the leader of the Islamic world, "it helps his image to be seen working up the Israelis."


Truthfully, the net effect appears to be more a desire to defend Mr. Ahmadinejad's Holocaust and anti-Semitic statements rather than any attempt to understand or how polemics plays in Middle Eastern politics.


  In short, I can't stop Ahmadinejad from taunting us with criticism easily manipulated to represent the most offensive of insults but I can certainly do my best to stop our own media from masturbating public opinion into a full-scale assault on the nation primarily for disrespecting the control of our Empire. The United States no longer has the resources to provide for itself in the manner to which it has become accustomed. This is very upsetting to Americans. Either the United States can scale down the Empire to something entirely more manageable and a little less condescending to the rest of the world (i.e. put pressure on Israel to pursue a real peace) or we're going to have to resort to extreme militarism, probably on our North and/or South American neighbors to support our habit.

  Because further expansion to continue our Empire at is current consumption levels would require a new round of American Imperialist expansion and acquisition of territory and resources it would spawn defensive acts of retribution against Americans that would make September 11th, the loss of Jewish life (as a sheer number) and the loss of Russians in WW II necessarily pale via method of application.

  I refuse to go that way. I will dig in my heels at every opportunity and do everything I may to fight against that eventuality. I would be surprised if others working to counterspin had modivations entirely different. I am surprised that your interpretation of these actions, collectively, would smack of anything more sinister than an attempt to stop another needless, expensive, damaging, unjust war of agression but I present the above for your consideration as a possible alternative motivation.

PB

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IntiRaymi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-30-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. I hate to say this, but can you shorten your posts?
You have many points to make, and I suspect that much of it gets lost to the background noise.

'Brevity is the soul of wit' -Shakespeare.

As for the content of your 10-odd paragraphs, I have this to say: You are erring in the geopolitical interpretation of the situation. But just let me throw out some bullets:
(a) Israel represents an unacceptable intrusion into the Arab sphere. It is a remnant of a hated colonial epoch.
(b) Petrodollars. Israel is the arm of american foreign policy in the region, and it will dutifully fullfill its role as a foil to the threat to the american credit house of cards.
(c) You have insight concerning the nature of Ahmadinejad's language. He has a golden throat (or pen, if you read the letter to Merkel), and he knows what to say, and how to say it.
(d) This is a stealth cold war we are in. Globalisation has made it impossible to draw another Iron Curtain across Asia, so there is no overt line drawn in the sand. Proxy wars are still the M. operandii of this type of conflict, and guess what: Israel is it.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. It's as long as I felt it needed to be. Considering the subject...
..., consider the poster, consider the stance. He's posting from the standpoint of a person who has serious questions about whether or not an entire series of threads lately represent an honest approach at finding out the truth about Ahmadinejad or a cover, intentional or otherwise, for defense of an anti-Semite. If I'm going to try to make the case for the average motivations, based on my own, I'm certainly not going to spare anything I consider important.

  Whether or not he or you or anyone evaluates it favorably, or ignores it, or stops reading out of boredom in mid-post is less important than making sure that I am satisfied with the content of my response.

  My reply is my reply. The music may be sour to your ears but it has just as many notes and just the right notes as need be struck to be my reply.

PB
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #41
47. A previous post that I'd looked for but had trouble finding.
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cassowary Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-31-06 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
45. Ahmedinejad has denied holocaust on other occasions
Edited on Thu Aug-31-06 03:36 AM by cassowary
Well, he has denied the holocaust or at least cast doubt about it a number of times. For example, see this link:

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm >

Excerpt:

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has courted further controversy by explicitly calling the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry a "myth".
"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

On live TV, he called for Europe or North America - even Alaska - to host a Jewish state, not the Middle East. "

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