This could be much worse than most here imagine.

[msmcghee]

I have participated in several I/L/P threads the last few days. I've made many angry here with my views - but I now have a few new friends too. Rather than chime in on various related topics I decided to try to encapsulate my view so people who think I'm so wrong can have one juicy target. Just so you know, I don't think of anyone at DU as an enemy. I know the words get pretty heated at times - but I think it's worthwhile discussing these world-changing events in real time. And this is the best place I know to do it. So here goes.

I feel bad that there is so much hatred between the Israelis and the Palestinians. There's plenty of blame to go around - especially perhaps for the US and Britain going back to 1948 for the current state of affairs. But, this is the reality we face. Israel is not leaving - nor would any sane person expect them to. She is surrounded by Arab / Persian states that have pledged to destroy her - and who have taken every opportunity for sixty years now to do just that.

Many of these nations are close to getting their hands on chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons. Most of them are ruled by religious sects that live for a day when the Muslim world can exact revenge for the Crusades of several hundred years ago - and the many insults and degradations they have suffered from Christianity and the West since then. In short, there are not many in these countries who would shed a tear if the Western world was destroyed and Islamic regimes inherited the remains. In fact most of them would see that as the best that could possibly happen.

We here are playing with forces far more potent than we imagine. We decry the mean Israelis who won't let Israeli / Arabs own land in Israel - or vote. In this part of the world for at least the last 10,000 years, when one group achieved a military victory over another - they simply killed every person that survived - or put them into slavery for life. There were no peace treaties to argue over - no Oslo accords - no voting rights to discuss at the UN.

We wring our hands over the 900 plus Lebanese who have died in this recent conflict. I'll tell you now that if Israel allows a situation to develop where Hezbollah or Hamas or any other quasi-state army can seriously threaten Israel - that the numbers of dead civilians in this conflict will pale in comparison. You could rightly say that those 900 Lebanese died today - so that 9 million Lebanese can live tomorrow.

When we sympathize with Hezbollah or the Lebanese who largely support them and give them a free pass to launch military attacks against Israel from inside Lebanese borders, we are making a very serious mistake IMO. A mistake that could - through a train of predictable events - result in many millions of dead civilians throughout the world. I'd think that many of those dead would be right here in the USA and Europe. The world will never be the same if that happens - there will be tremendous suffering and death of civilians on all sides.

In fact, this could happen anyway - because many Islamic regimes see that as the path to their final ascent to glory and domination of the world after several hundred years of humiliation at the hands of western powers. I suspect that the utter stupidity and incompetence of the Bush administration has caused them to see that they might never get a better chance than right now to fulfill that dream.

This isn't about kidnapped soldiers and rocket launchers. It's about major forces aligning in the ME to destroy Israel and the Western powers that have supported her. That's us folks. Even if we officially sided with Hezbollah (unthinkable) they would not be stupid enough to think we were suddenly the good guys in this. There's centuries of history they learn about in their madrassas that tell them otherwise.

Our best - possibly only hope - is to have an intelligent president and congress who works with moderates in Israel and throughout the region to bring those out-of-control forces back into an alignment that could eventually result in peace. It will take brains and luck and a lot of work if it's possible at all now - but supporting Israel's enemies and helping them put Israel in a defensive box where she has no options other than massive retaliation - is the worst thing we could possibly do - IMHO.

Remember, Israel is the only real democracy in the ME. She is there because the US and Britain through the new UN made its first resolution the establishment of the state of Israel in the territory designated as Palestine on the ME maps. After reading the history of how all that went down - I feel that that was the best decision that could have been made at that time under those conditions.

Whether you agree or not makes no difference. We now have to make the best of it by fully supporting Israel, who has tried mightily for sixty years to carve out a peaceful existence there, who has never wished for the destruction of her neighbors, who has never attacked them unless she was threatened, who has never annexed territory that wasn't necessary for her security against her warlike neighbors who have continuously called for her destruction - because a lot more than a few million Israeli lives are at stake if we don't - and mostly because it's the right thing to do.

That's my opinion. I could be wrong. here's you chance to show me why.

[rzemanfl]

1. The worst case is this, there has never been a nuclear power

faced with its own destruction, Israel would use its nukes...it sure wouldn't let them be captured.

[bowens43]

2. fully support the slaughter of Innocent people?????

No thanks.

Israel tried to carve out a peaceful existence??? ROFLMAO!!
You have got to be kidding. They have grabbed more land at every opportunity.


I find your bigoted statements about Islam to be very offensive. They border on paranoia.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msmcghee]

19. I never said one word about anti-semitism.

Islamic hatred of the west is all over the news every day and can be found all over the internet as well. It is no secret at all. It is no conspiracy theory. It is religious idiocy at its best.

Neither did I say all Muslems share this view. The problem is that enough of them do to cause serious problems in the world. Support for Hezbollah strengthens them. We should not be doing that - so the moderate Muslims can regai control of their states some day.

[JackNewtown]

67. It fits with the agenda

And I am not talking about any Israeli agenda. It is amazing what is given a free pass as long as it is under the guise of "pro-Israel." Progressives complain loudly when such views come from their original sources.

[liberalhistorian]

102. Egg-zactly!

And they also appear to have no problem with the slaughter of hundreds of innocent civilians, the destruction of an entire country, the creation of nearly a million desperate, homeless refugees, the breeding of a new generation of terrorists, which are the children who've watched their families blown up in front of them by Israel, etc., etc. They have no problem with lumping Hezbollah in with ALL Lebanese, and Hamas in with ALL Gaza residents, etc., etc., so that even the children who are murdered are considered to be somehow connected to "terrorists."

[MrPrax]

3. Drivel n/t

[liberalhistorian]

104. Yep, sums it up

perfectly!

[adigal]

4. What you are missing -

"Many of these nations are close to getting their hands on chemical, biological and even nuclear weapons. Most of them are ruled by religious sects that live for a day when the Muslim world can exact revenge for the Crusades of several hundred years ago - and the many insults and degradations they have suffered from Christianity and the West since then."

Many of our current leaders, in the White House and Congress, are on the other side of that Crusade, hoping to wipe out Muslims once and for all. Don't believe me - go look at www.freerepublic.com. Then come back here and tell me that this Crusade idea is only on the Muslim side.

And I don't EVER, EVER support anyone or anything fully, holding them above reproach. That is such a right wing approach, the lack of critical thinking that leads to this. So while I fully support Israel's right to defend itself, I also think they have gone way beyond what is appropriate and into immoral acts. And if I don't tell my friend when I think she is wrong, how can I stand in judgement of my enemies???

[n2doc]

7. Hear, Hear!

Why is it that unconditional support is always assumed to be the right thing for Israel? If instead we said- we stand behind you so long as you act in a reasonable way, but you are alone if you go and commit war crimes- wouldn't that be better? Must we always assume that Israel knows the best plan at all times? I have heard more than enough strories about the partitioning of the west bank to think that Israel has made some major errors there.

[msmcghee]

11. Yes, you are right.

Our support should be conditional. I didn't mention that because so far I have seen Israel treat her enemies much better than they treat her - and I have seen Israel commit no war crimes.

If they were I misssed the trial and sanctions, prison terms, etc. Violent acts committed in self defense are not war crimes and are recognized by the Geneva Conventions as legitimate.

However, ever suicide bomber that blows him or herself up in Israel and every rocket launched from Lebanon to purposely kill civilians is an actual war crime.

[whosinpower]

16. uh.....

Threatening to bomb ten Lebanese buildings for every rocket launched is a war crime. It is collective punishment and is NOT recognized by the geneva conventions as legitimate.

[msmcghee]

18. Uh . .

. . threatening anything is not a war crime. In this case it is a threat to prevent escalation of the conflict by warning of dire consequences if Hezbollah attacks Tel Aviv. Israel has already notified residents od S. Beirut, where Hezbolloh has infrastructure, to leave.

[whosinpower]

21. Well-

One one hand you are correct - threats mean nothing-in terms of geneva conventions.

Beirut was attacked where there no leaflets fell - as well as targeted areas.
Nasrallah threatened to attack Tel Aviv if Beirut was bombed. Guess that threat was meant to stop the bombing of Beirut.....to prevent escalation as you pointed out....and was met with the abhorrent response from Israel that stated for every rocket that fell on Israel - 10 buildings would be destroyed.

Should Israel follow through with that threat--then it is a war crime.

[breakaleg]

29. well, if "threats" aren't a warcrime then why is it that threats from

these Militants is enough reason to attack another country? which is it - threats mean something or they don't? you can't have it both ways.

[msmcghee]

30. Warcrimes are not necessary before one defends oneself.

Any intelligent person or country will pay attention to threats and if they are credible - like kidnapping soldiers which is an international BTW - then they will do what is necessary for their protection. You have a very simplistic view of reality - that supports your fantasy of the poor oppressed Palestinians.

[breakaleg]

34. so Israel can threaten Lebanon and that's ok. they aren't allowed

to respond. but if anyone threatens Israel, then can act on those threats?

what a double standard you have there.

[msmcghee]

37. Think about your words.

Hezbollah says to Israel "We will destroy you or push you into the sea".

Hezbollah kidnaps 2 soldiers and kills 8 - and then begins firing hundreds of missiles into Isreal that kill civilians.

Israel says, "If you fire any missiles at Tel Aviv we will destroy ten of your buildings (after warning the people who live their to leave - for each missile you fire".

Only your hatred of Israel could interpret that as Israel being a bully.

[breakaleg]

42. What????

First of all, you know nothing about me. But that's right, if I don't agree with Israel's aggression, then I hate Israel.

My comments couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that Israel IS the BULLY?

More importantly, you think it's ok to destroy 10 buildings for an air attack????

[msmcghee]

43. Yes, if the threat of destroying 10 buildings . .

. . saves one Israeli civilian life or one Lebanese civilian life - I'd say that's a good trade.

But for you, it seems that innocent lives are not as important as the fun keyboard game of calling Israel a bully.

[breakaleg]

51. I also believe Lebanese civilians are "innocent lives".

this is not a game. 900 Lebanese killed vs less than 100 Israelis...

[msmcghee]

57. If those 900 dead prevent a much worse disaster later . .

. . then maybe it's one of the terrible tradeoffs that have to be made in war. Like when we bombed Dresden in WWII.

[breakaleg]

59. the basic difference here is you believe Israeli lives have more value

than Lebanese or Palestinians or anyone who has issue with Israel.

Any debate is useless unless we can agree that all human lives are equal.

[msmcghee]

61. Why would you say that.

What did I say that leads you to believe that?

[liberalhistorian]

105. Oh, Jesus H. Christ in a canoe, do you even

read your own posts? Are you really THAT clueless? When you say things like "if those 900 Lebanese lives prevent a worse disaster, then it's a terrible tradeoff that must be done", how, exactly, do you THINK people are going to interpret that? Besides the fact that you confirm, through that statement, what we've known all along, and that is that the Israel-is-always-right-and-holy-crowd consider Israeli lives to be far more important and valuable than Arab/Lebanese/Palestinian/Muslim lives.

[JackNewtown]

69. Oh the irony nt

[liberalhistorian]

103. OMFG! You have GOT to be

fucking kidding me! If someone said that about Israeli lives being the "terrible tradeoff", you would be jumping up and down screaming and wailing and weeping. The bottom line is what I've suspected all along, and now you've just actually confirmed it. The bottom line is that, for the Israel-is-always-right-and-holy crowd, Israeli lives are far more precious and important than Lebanese, Palestinian, Muslim, Arab lives. Please don't try to deny it anymore, that's become crystal clear these past few weeks.

And have you ever stopped to think that this disproportionate aggression on Israel's part is only making things worse, and only exacerbating hatred and, therefore, terrorism against it? How do you think a Lebanese child who's seen his family blown up and his country destroyed by Israelis is going to grow up to feel about Israel? How do you think this overwhelmingly disproportionate aggression by Israel is going to make those who are on the receiving end of it, mostly civilians who are NOT synonymous with Hezbollah or Hamas, feel about Israel now? Have you taken notice of just how much this is stirring up the Arab world against Israel and our policy of unquestioning, unqualified support of its actions with no concern as to the suffering of the Lebanese and Palestinians? Even Jordan is angry now, and Jordan is one of our allies in the ME.

And there's a reason why Israel's been surrounded by danger these past sixty years-it took land from Arabs and Palestinians in order to create Israel. Arabs and Palestinians who, in many cases, had been living on the stolen land for generations.

[ShortnFiery]

100. No! You don't convert an Enemy to A Friend by bombing them 10x

more than they bomb you. That's insanity ... there is NO military solution to winning the hearts and minds of the Arab PEOPLE!

Yes PEOPLE! There are Arab people that could be reached by community programs sponsored by <drum roll> Israel! Yes, if Israel held out a hand of compassion that would help the destitute Palestinians have hope for the future, THEN you would have a decent chance of changing hearts and minds.

Blowing more infrastructure up, solves NOTHING. It exponentially increases the number of enemies against Israel.

KILLING solves absolutely nothing.

There has not ever been a GOOD WAR or a BAD PEACE.

We are dealing with fellow human beings here BOTH in the Gaza Strip and in the Nation of Lebanon. The way you encourage them to stop embracing the crazy ones (radical factions of Hamas and Hezbollah) calling for Israel's destruction is by NURTURING the populace to value YOUR concern and humanity.

Israel, with the proper empathy and compassion could easily put Hezbollah and Hamas out of business, IF ONLY you would GIVE of yourselves to those Palestinians and Lebanese who live from day to day - in abject poverty. That is the ONLY WAY to win their "hearts and minds." :thumbsup:

[liberalhistorian]

106. Truly amazing how clueless

so many of the "bomb them back to the stone age and they'll hate Hezbollah and embrace Israel" crowd are, isn't it? :eyes:

[ShortnFiery]

109. Yes, I remember how my beloved brother came

back from serving in the Vietnam (Infantry) for 13 months. He was "empty" ... I remember that I was only 12 years old. I looked at his lighter and these words were etched upon it's side, "When I die, bury me face down so that the world can kiss my ass." :cry:

I was so young when my brother came back from serving in Vietnam that I found his "numbness" strange but I was too naive to be alarmed. But he KILLED HIMSELF on the installment plan (Alcoholism).

No young person should see the horrors of war, up close and personal. In fact, no compassionate human being should be subjected to such EVIL.

Regardless of what many who support Israel, please know that there are BEAUTIFUL and peaceful people on "The Other Side." Don't listen to the crazies for they are NOT all of Lebanon.

Please Israel, let's work together to lift up all peoples in the Middle East? Killing only breeds hatred. You can stop Hamas and Hezbollah by caring for the many poor peoples of Lebanon and the Gaza Strip (Palestinians).

[JackNewtown]

68. Does Palestine have a right to defend itself against Israeli colonization?

Or does the "right" belong only to a select few?

[msmcghee]

76. Israel is not a colonial power.

They have no desire to occupy land that is not theirs. When you attack a country with armies - as in 1967 - and you lose, you traditionally lose land. Still, Israel returned the Negev and much of the rest. The land she has kept - although she has returned much of that and offered to return more - is mostly and needed for defense - like the Golan Heights - or possibly land that she hopes to trade for peace.

[JackNewtown]

85. Response

"They have no desire to occupy land that is not theirs."

Progessive icon Ehud Olmert himself has declared such a desire.

"When you attack a country with armies - as in 1967 - and you lose, you traditionally lose land."

Which armies did the Palestinians have?

That was in the old days. The world has evolved beyond that. Ask Saddam...the UN did not recognize Israel's territorial gains. If the international community returned to an order in which any territorial gains are acceptable then we would see many more nations fighting to capture more territory, which was the case in the past. Do you want to see a return to that order?

"The land she has kept - although she has returned much of that and offered to return more - is mostly and needed for defense"

You justify the occupation of the Golan Heights. Do you favor Syria funding Hezbollah to "fight" against the occupier of its land?

"or possibly land that she hopes to trade for peace."

The Israeli government itself contradicts this myth. It is no secret Olmert wants much of the West Bank, including the two chief West Bank aquifers.

[JackNewtown]

65. "I have seen Israel commit no war crimes."

That says it all. This is not a thread seeking an honest debate on the issue, as it purports to be, but a thread to disseminate Israeli propaganda. No war crimes. Violent acts in self-defense but no mention of the colonization of Palestine, which leads to those very violent acts against Israel that Israel is defending itself from.

[msmcghee]

77. What colonization of Palestine?

Be specific.

[catmother]

39. during gulf war 1 iraq was firing missils on israel. bush 1 asked

israel not to retaliate. they didn't. i remember seeing the pictures of the sirens going off and the israeli people putting on the gas masks.

i also remember a nursing home being hit.

[n2doc]

45. Nonviolence has its costs

But so does violence. Israel gained (temporarily) a measure of international resepct by its restraint in 1991. If the IDF had exhibited a restrained approach this time they would be getting a lot more support. This does not mean doing nothing, which seems to be the idea Israel supporters have of those who urge restraint.

[catmother]

49. how many times can you be "slapped"? for 60 years there have

been those in the ME who have been firing missiles -- using suicide bombers -- remember the people having dinner in a restaurant during a jewish holiday? remember how they were attacked on Yom Kippur? how about after the suicide bombers hit the first responders get hit with boobie traps? i could go on and on. i just heard from someone the other day who remembers being a young boy in israel hearing the katusha rockets in the background.

and those bombs that don't kill maim. there filled with nails which means when they go into the heads of the victims -- well maybe it would be better if they were killed.

[n2doc]

52. And how many times has Israel responded with violence?

It isn't like they have shown much restraint, especially in the last decade. I can understand the frustration and anger. Yes, Israel has been treated terribly. They deserve to be treated with respect and to be able to live in peace. The real question that they should be asking is, what is the route to a permanent, livable solution. I put it to you- Do you really, honestly think that bombing one's neighbors is going to change their attitudes? It certainly hasn't worked for the PLO, Hesbollah and the other radical Arab groups. Is somehow the ability to blow up more stuff at a time going to lead to peace? The route that the IDF is taking leads towards the destruction of millions of people, for that is the only way that force alone will stop the fighting. Did bombing the crap out of Iraq stop them from picking up arms after it was over? Will blowing up all of the Hesbollah missles along with all of Lebanon's infrastructure and a good portion of the non-combatant population stop them from wanting to get more? Will Nuking Iran and Syria stop their people from hating Israel and the US?

[catmother]

54. i would love to see peace -- not just in the ME -- but the whole

world. it seems like there has been war since the beginning of time. and maybe till the end. it doesn't look very encouraging right now.

[JackNewtown]

71. This is the problem IMO

A lack of compassion for the other side. The same could also have easily been said to "justify" any Palestinian actions:

"how many times can you be "slapped"? for 60 years there have been those in the Israel who have been firing missiles -- using state-of-the-art jets -- remember the people having dinner in a restaurant during ramadan? remember how they were attacked? how about after the bombs hit the first responders get hit with the rest of the cluster bombs? i could go on and on. i just heard from someone the other day who remembers being a young boy in palestine hearing the F-16 firing missles in the background.

and those 500 pound bombs that don't kill maim. well maybe it would be better if they were killed."

Until both sides begin to acknowledge the crimes committed against the other there will be no peace.

[msmcghee]

73. Peace does not depend acknowledging the pain . .

. . of the other side. It depends on only one thing - it depends on the Palestinians' willingness to stop killing Israelis. For sixty years the violence has perfectly tracked the attacks coming from Palestinians and other Arab states against Israel.

When those go away for a while - Israel pulls back. When they start up again - like Hezbollah just did - all hell breaks loose and many innocent civilians die.

If you truly care about the lives of innocent civilians you should be condemning Hezbollah - not Israel. The fact that you don't tells me that you could care less about dead civilians. You simply want Israel to lose. The problem is Israel will not lose - without many millions of innocent civilians dieing. Is it worth that much to you to see Israel lose - even if you hate Israel?

[JackNewtown]

89. Response

"It depends on only one thing - it depends on the Palestinians' willingness to stop killing Israelis."

The Israeli government itself contradicts this. Israel wants much of the West Bank and the WB's water. That is hardly a policy of a peace-loving, beleaguered nation. That is flat-out colonialism.

"When those go away for a while - Israel pulls back."

Really? So if the attacks stop Israel will stop settlment expansion? There were no suicide bombings in Israel for a period of about 18 months from 1996-1998. Did Israel stop taking land during that period?

"If you truly care about the lives of innocent civilians you should be condemning Hezbollah - not Israel. The fact that you don't"

That is another myth. I have condemned Hezbollah. Just yesterday I was criticized by eight or nine posters for saying Israel's bombing of Hezbollah's HQ was justified. My chief problems are with Israel's actions in Palestine.

"The problem is Israel will not lose"

Not as long as the world's most powerful nation sponsors it but that support may not continue forever and another nation will overtake the US at some point in the future. Then it would be a whole new ballgame, especially if the new superpower elected to sponsor one of Israel's enemies, such as Syria. Israel needs to give up the lust for land and water and seek a just peace in order to ensure its long-term survival.

[jaysunb]

5. I too support Israels right to exsist/defend itself !

Within it's pre 1967 borders that is.
I also think they should acknowlege and abide by the UN resolutions that have been passed.
Those 2 small items would go a long way toward solving this issue once and for all.

[Oversea Visitor]

6. Haha Very Pro Isreal

Whee me anti Isreal

Maybe me like supporting underdog.

But yeah talks sound good.
But you need understand anger at Isreal
You do not try understand reason you never solve problems

Pro Isreal must not means that UN resolution can be ignore.
Pro Isreal must not means that bulldozer can run over peaceworker regardless of where they from.
Poor Racheal Corrie.
Poor British girl long ago

See simple thing like this happen
Why so many free pass
What then can other side do

It is a timebomb
Bad thing will happen one day

Make people cuckoo enough and see no choice
You get big Kaboom
Time running out Hate fever very high
You want spoilt child to behave you better use cane
Spare the rod spoilt the child
Child turn into little monster

US has by deed and action spoilt Isreal rotten
Only one way it end in the end
Destruction of Isreal
Want to avoid that
Better look at problems
Or hey all this support waste of time
End result will be the same.
Maybe can solve easy
Kill of all Muslims in region or the Muslim kill of Isreal
Do not want that
Then both side take medicine
Cannot be just one sided.

Bigger Army. Bigger Gun. Bigger bomb win battle
But ultimately lose if cannot wind heart and mind of people
People easy to deal with ..... Fair deal Win win solution all happy
If only onesided ..... what peace.
Talk good but no good executetion of talk and plan still end up same fuck shit.
Man we already gone theough more that around 60 years of this crap.
Something must be wrong to solution
Even Germany and Japan move on.
Even Vietnam move on
Even Korea move on
So what so different about Isreal issue
Even Iran and Iraq move on.

Maybe one need to look at stop the occupation.
Stop all this talk of security zone.
Stop all this excuse for grabbing territory
Maybe then got ground to start'
No way peace can grow if otherside do not see point of giving back what was taken
Sure sure the strong win and get keep the prize of war.

Tell me how many great empire has done so in our history
Nada none zero.
REALITY IS A BITCH.

[msmcghee]

8. HaHa pretty creative.

Someone might think you were really from Singapore. :hi:

[Oversea Visitor]

20. Never hide where I am from

If fuck happen to me ..... :) Fuck happen to me
As least I die with my mouth shooting
The right kind of crap :)

We all live on this same dirt ball name Earth

No where to run no where to hide

In past it was AROUND THE WORLD IN 80 DAYS

Gee now need like maybe 24 hours.

Ok who shrink the dirt ball.

[OrechDin]

110. or even overseas nt

[sevenleagueboots]

9. If i may stick my beak in here........Jews must have water..where is it?

The Litani River is as key to growth for Israel as control of ME oil and gas is key to regional containment: Both endeavor's
are completely thuggish. It's what's for dinner.

[Oversea Visitor]

26. I refuse to paint Isreal so cold blooded

Misguided yes but not so cold blooded
Any fool can see that this can not work out
They can not hold.

[JackNewtown]

72. The US and UK are painted that way

In what ways is the Israeli state more superior than the American and British states? All states are fundamentally the same IMO, the only big differences is regarding the means at their disposal to achieve their ends.

It can't work out in Lebanon but it can in the West Bank, where Israel seeks to annex the best land and water. Is that moral? There was a time when progressives would unanimously speak out against such action by a state...

[Oversea Visitor]

92. You think it is working out in the West Bank

Why do you think the fighting never stop.

I mean look at the World War Germany Japan Italy all already move on and build a peaceful future.
Isreal holding on to powder keg with lighted fuse and shouting terrorist terrorist.

We all wait for another 50 years and they still fight.
Maybe Isreal wait for terrorist to get big stick to learn lesson
Might dont make right them come to their senses and get rid of powder keg.

[whosinpower]

10. I support the idea of a state of Israel

I do not support her policies regarding the palestinians.

As has been from the very beginning - if Israel addressed the palestinian crisis in a fair minded manner - the threat from neighbors would cease. You will always have a few wingnuts calling for Israel's destruction--but the key is to alienate/marginalize them from the rest of the Arab population. If you attack the whole population--you are giving credibility to those few wingnuts. That is what is happening today. As has happened time and time again. Always with a dispraportinate response and a swelling of Israeli hatred, and a land grab--for security purposes of course!

I cannot support Israel when it indescriminately destroys Lebanon infrastructure. When it bombs factories. When it destroys villages. When it cuts Lebanon off.

I still support the idea of Israel. But I do NOT support its radical right wing leaders. And I do not forget what happened to the last Israeli Prime Minister who had the courage to admit that when the jews arrived--there were people already there. And that he was ready, willing and able to negotiate with the palestinians on a comprehensive peace deal.
He was assasinated.....by right wing radical Israeli settlers. And it is those right wing elements that you are asking us to fully support. I cannot.

I cannot support a nation that seperates the palestinians from critical land they need to survive. And the wall is an obscenity--meant for one thing only--to make it virtually impossible for a viable palestinian state.

In order for Israel to survive--she must change from an apartheid mentality and she must engage the palestinians with a comprehensive peace plan and a fair equitable land exchange that allows for a viable palestinian state. The right wing elements of Israel do not want this. It is why they refuse. They want it all. That is how it appears--with illegal settlements still popping up, with displacement of palestinians--with a wall that encloses palestinian land in little pockets that are untenable.

Israel's enemies have been consistant in one thing - the palestinian crisis. Address the root cause of this hatred. And the radical elements of Islam will be so marginalized that they will cease to be an issue.

This is not to say that I support the actions of Hizbollah. I do not. But I cannot fathom how the current action will result in anything other than more hatred and violence. You cannot kill them all. You cannot hope to survive enclosed within high walls and prickly barriers. There will never be peace under these foundations.

[msmcghee]

13. Wishful thinking.

You said, "As has been from the very beginning - if Israel addressed the palestinian crisis in a fair minded manner - the threat from neighbors would cease."

Every fair approach from Israel has been seen as a sign of weakness and has been met with more suicide bombs.

At some point you have to see the reality of it. This is not like living in Atlanta. It's a different world of hateful passions and people willing to die to become martytrs for Allah. Fairnes has nothing to do with it. If it did this would have been over my 1950.

[whosinpower]

15. The last FAIR Israeli leader

Died by the hands of his own people. There have been no other reasonable approaches via Israel since.

[Oversea Visitor]

24. Haha

I see Isreal must win.
Win what.
At some point in time they will end up fucked.
No no use brain

Did you forget what happen in Seattle
Do you not see path that you walk on.

Maybe one can pray for Victory

But sure not going to help when other side
Praying hard too :rofl:

You think happy people run around with explosive to go kaboom
You think all muslim looney
You think doing right thing call losing and weakness
You think JFK kill by muslim

Reality is a BITCH

[JackNewtown]

74. When is the last time classical colonialism worked?

Israel must realize what other colonial nations realized and others' rudely discovered, when you attempt to take other's land and resources they are going to respond. The glory days of submissive colonized people are long gone.

[furman]

23. Those "wingnuts" were voted into power by the population.

Hamas is now in control in the PA and Hezbollah has a minority of seats in the Lebanese parliament.

Furthermore, Israel's attacks on Lebanon's infrastructure are not indescriminate.
In contrast, Hezbollah's attacks on Israel are indeed indescriminate.

The security barrier is there to keep terrorists and suicide bombers out,
not to keep the Palestinians from having a viable state.

If the barrier saves the life of even one person from being a victim of a terror attack,
then it serves its purpose.

I agree that there are issues of how the barrier is laid out.
I saw a documentary produced by some people from France on PBS not too long ago.
I sympathize with the individual Palestinian farmers and families
who have been affected by the barrier.

Palestinians were offered a very generous deal back in late 2000.
They responded with suicide bombers because they did not get everything they wanted.

[whosinpower]

33. yeah -

Wingnuts on both sides of the equation. Likud party was also voted in by the population.

Israel's attacks are not indescriminate. So, because they actually KNOW they are killing 58 farmers --then this is accepable? Or how about the two houses that were blown up just a short while ago--57 people buried. Oh goodie - because it isn't INDESCRIMINATE - that makes it ok. God.....

The barrier serves two purposes and you know this all to well. There were many discussions and fights over where the wall was to go - and the Israeli's ignored the international community and built it where they wanted to build it. They did not have to put it where they did......but they did to maximize the hardship of the palestinians. Don't tell me they did not mean for that to happen. It is deliberate. So - if it saves the life of one Israeli at the cost of thousands of livelyhoods of palestinians - that is acceptable to you. Not to me.

There has never been a generous package put forth. If you are talking about Bush's road map - Israel did not adhere to its principals either. There have always been targetted assasinations even though that was NOT acceptable in the road map. The suicide bombers are not the only ones who "get" innocents. And so it fell apart even though Hamas did have a short ceasefire. Israel sent rockets to assasinate one of the leaders--and the rest is history.

The last Israeli leader who got the closest to having a real lasting peace deal was assasinated - by right wing Israeli terrorist settlers.

Hamas political leaders have been kidnapped by Israel and the palistinian cabinet, or congress, or parliament sits empty. Funny - I thought a political engagement would be better than the current status quo. However - Israel refuses. I know - Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel has had its share of terrorist movements as well.

[furman]

44. responses...

The peace package was offered in late 2000, after the Camp David talks failed.
It was proposed by Bill Clinton and endorsed by Israeli Prime Minister Barak.
Arafat was offered a large contiguous area of the West Bank (I think 97%)
and provisions for a land highway between Gaza and the West Bank were discussed.
Afafat rejected it because he was not able to get everything he wanted,
such as having Jerusalem as their capital.
Arafat's response was launching the Intifada.

Israel attacks targets suspected of housing Hezbollah munitions. That is not indescriminate.
Sometimes they make mistakes.
In the case of the truck today, it was suspected of being used for transporting weapons from Syria.
Also keep in mind that Hezbollah filters all news coming out of territory controlled by them
because Western journalists are generally not granted free access.

I do not condone all of Israel's actions. Perhaps you are right in saying that the security barrier
maximizes the hardship of the Palestinians. I don't know for sure, and unless you are very close to
the situation you don't know either.

The last Israeli leader who got closest to a peace deal was Ehud Barak.
They were extremely close and Arafat rejected it.

[whosinpower]

60. The last Israeli leader that was closest

Was Rabin. And he was assasinated for it.

He forged a lasting peace deal with Jordon and Egypt. At the very least - those are still sound.
He wanted also to work out deals with Syria, Lebanon and Iran. And elements within the Jewish population killed him for it.

That was the stated reason for the assasination - to kill the peace process. It worked.

And so we have elements on both sides of the fence that are wingnuts. The moderates have long since been silenced. Both sides claiming they are right--while both are wrong. One trying to squeeze the other out by attrition and the other attacking with suicide bombers. One side sponsored by Arab neighbors, and the other by the west.

But to suggest that Israel is totally right in this while her enemies are totally wrong is turning a blind eye to the current hardships and strife of the palestinians. This I cannot do. For far too long have the palestinian voices been silent to our(the west)ears. It is getting increasingly difficult to have sympathy to Israel on the one hand while watching as Israel builds a wall to shut off palestinians from their land, their livelyhood, while Israel kidnaps people and "dissappears them" without charge, without trial indefinately, while Israeli snipers target and shoot palestinian children trying to hide behind their father (yes I saw the tape), while Israeli settlers continue to build on palestinian land even though it is illegal. So you ask us to support Israel in its fight because rockets are flying overhead and terrorizing its citizens and this I can do.....until I see the whole picture and then it gets allot more difficult.

[JackNewtown]

75. Why did Arafat reject?

There are very different views on that and how "generous" the Barak offer was. Perhaps would could make an exception and allow a thread to be posted here about the 2000-2001 peace process?

[leveymg]

12. "those 900 Lebanese died today - so that 9 million Lebanese can live"

You have something more than Chutzpah - that's crass and cold-blooded. It's also wrong.

Are you implying that Lebanon has a nuclear weapons program? That's news.

Even if they did, what's the tolerable upper-limit for Arab and Persian casualties? Would you also say, in the wake of an Israeli nuclear first-strike on Iran, "those 9 million Iranians died today - so that 90 million Iranians can live tomorrow?"

How about 90 million dead in a generalized nuclear war involving Israel and Pakistan? Would it then be, "They died so that 900 million can live tomorrow?

Where does the tolerable upper-limit for killing stop for you? You should be ashamed.

[whosinpower]

14. It is trully shameful

You are absolutely correct.

We could almost presume that the Holocaust was a necessary evil so the state of Israel could be born....with this sort of logic. (And I reject this totally, utterly and completely BTW - so please don't flame me)

[liberalhistorian]

107. Switch that around to

"900 Israelis must die so that 9 million Israelis can live", and you'd see how fast he'd change his tune. It's truly beyond disturbing to see any Israeli supporter, knowing what the Jews have been through for centuries at the hands of people who think just like that, making such a statement.

[QuestionAll...]

22. sorry, recruitment effort

miserably failed if you were going after me.

In fact I'm more horrified than ever at how deeply entrenched these lies and misinformation have become. Horrified that Muslims and Arabs are somehow expendable items in Israel's quest.

damn, right now I'd like to swear a blue streak at you, actually.

[furman]

25. Please explain the "lies and misinformation".

The facts presented in the OP seem mostly accurate.

Are you not horrified that Hezbollah intentionally places their infrastructure in urban areas
in order to maximize the civilian casualties and cause an outpouring of grief towards them?

Are you not horrified to see Hezbollah continue their
missile campaign aimed for Israeli cities that do not have military importance?

[Oversea Visitor]

27. They are not an army

They are hmmmm whatever they are civilian army :rofl:
Do not expect them to fight conventional warfare.

At least them do not use WMD

The Hezbollah is not the Lebanese army :rofl:

As for the you hurt me I hurt you mentality

Maybe when they upgrade to WMD hurt level Isreal see the light to path of peace.

[breakaleg]

31. they don't HAVE infrastucture! they are a militia made up of

whoever wants to join them. They live in houses, and meet where they can. Is this the definition of infrastucture?

Those rules apply to government armies, not resistance forces.

[msmcghee]

32. Those rules apply to . . .

. . people who fire missiles across borders to kill civilians.

[Oversea Visitor]

35. Not what started this crap

was 2 soldiers kidnapped that started this crap

So now they celebrate with sending rocket to somewhere

Maybe they get better meaner rockets

At this rate thing can go downhill fast

Get blair getting worry.

You talk I talk we talk

But gee Isreal Hezbollah need talk.

[QuestionAll...]

50. o lemme see. maybe the part where the Lebanese should be

grateful there's only 600+ dead.

that's how I interpreted it - if the OP didn't mean it this way - then he/she should make it clear otherwise. If he/she did mean it that way - blue streak swear to you.

[msmcghee]

53. My words were . .

"We wring our hands over the 900 plus Lebanese who have died in this recent conflict. I'll tell you now that if Israel allows a situation to develop where Hezbollah or Hamas or any other quasi-state army can seriously threaten Israel - that the numbers of dead civilians in this conflict will pale in comparison. You could rightly say that those 900 Lebanese died today - so that 9 million Lebanese can live tomorrow."

Try using reason to analyse my words rather than emotion.

I was saying that if Hezbollah is strengthened from this conflict - like if Israel withdrew and negiated for some deal at this time - if israel didn't go in and create those 900 plus regrettable casualties - then it is likely that the reult would be millions more dead a few months or a year from now.

That's because Hezbollah and their supporters would think that Israel is weak enough that a concerted attack by several groups and states might just finish her off. If you understood ME history you would know that each Arab / Israeli war started when Israels enemies though she was weak enough to defeat. As long as Israel steps hard on her enemies before they attack they decide to be nice and let surrogates, teenagers and young suicide bombers do the fighting.

[QuestionAll...]

55. no I can't and won't say this:

""You could rightly say that those 900 Lebanese died today so that 9 million Lebanese can live tomorrow.""

that is pure FUCKING BULLSHIT and I'm done with you and your ignorance and little black wizened heart.
take your crystal ball and shove it.

'leaves swearing a blue streak'.

[msmcghee]

56. This is what passes for reason these days.

Why would you rather see 9 million dead than 900?

[breakaleg]

28. congratulations, you've passed your Israeli PR 101 course with an "A"

This is nothing more than a doomsday theory in which you make it ok to punish millions of people for the "thoughts", when the reality is they aren't currently doing what you suggest they will, and they don't have the manpower or firepower to back it up.

Israel has a large enough military and enough US bombs to take care of itself in the ME. To say they feel threatened by the "thoughts" of their neighbors, is laughable. To say they need to launch proactive military strikes to wipe out this threat, is a justification that will never fly.

Israel has made some calculated moves since their inception that have been mistakes. They are creating enemies, where they claim to want friends. They are responsible for their own misery at the moment. They are the only ones who can make effective changes, by making concessions such as returning the land they stole from the Palestinians. When Israel returns that land, removes ALL settlements, and still there is no peace, then I will change my view. Until that day, they have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[furman]

36. Israel did not "steal land"

The land has been acquired through wars started by Israel's enemies.

The West Bank and Gaza are considered disputed terroritories, not stolen land.

Israel had made concessions and generous offers of peace.
Examples are treaties with Jordan and Egypt.

Palestinians choose to respond with suicide bombs and electing Hamas to power.

Are suicide bombs and thousands of Hezbollah rockets
nothing more than "thought crimes" in your mind?

[Oversea Visitor]

41. steal conquer occupied

fucking land does not belong to them.

It belong to somebody else before that

Bigger guns bigger bombs does not make one right

Maybe yeah make one bigger bully :rofl:

Can take what one want :rofl:

Open head look at brain check for loose wire

Pat pat all fine

Them Palestinians cannot elect who they want must get approval from Isreal and US :rofl:
Gee democracy sure very weird. :rofl:

[breakaleg]

47. to which generous offers of peace are you referring?

Are you referring to the offer in 2000 to allow Palestinians a state while maintaing all of the illegal settlements in the West Bank and the roads that connect them, while Israel controls the borders? The same one where Israel maintained control of the water supplies in the West Bank?

Those settlements ARE stolen land. Israel strategically placed those settlements around the West Bank so that they would be difficult to pull out of, and so they control the area. The idea being, one day, they'll gain control of the whole area.

[JackNewtown]

79. Why no response to this from the pro-Israel crowd? nt

[liberalhistorian]

108. Because they know it's true and

there's nothing they can say to justify it. The illegal settlements, and the control they were granted over the water supplies, farm land, etc., etc., was major, major fuel for the fire. For some reason, they prefer to ignore that little inconvenient truth because it doesn't fit their agenda of demonizing the Arab populations.

[JackNewtown]

78. Did you support Iraq's "acquistion" of Kuwait?

One could argue it was Kuwait who provoked Iraq's attack (it was Israel who attacked in 1967, no the Arabs).

Do you also support the US retaining Iraq? It was won "fair and square" in a war, right?

Israel has made offers of peace--so have the Arabs. The fact is at this point in time neither side seeks peace.

So you wholeheartedly support Israel taking Palestinian land--in defiance of the international community minus one--and simultaneously expect the Palestinians to obediently accept it? The root cause of the terror is the colonization of Palestine.

[Oversea Visitor]

38. They do that there be peace

60 years of this crap just too long.
Imagine how much money waste for all this shit
Maybe all can be millionaire there instead if resources not wasted in stupid fight over some stupid shit like this.

[catmother]

40. great post. i agree with everything you said. your post is

intelligent and i can see that it took time and much thought on your part.:pals:

[msmcghee]

46. Is this the best you can offer?

I invited you to offer a reasoned analysis and tell me why I was wrong. Is this the best you can do. So far, all I see are the spin and talking points - I'm right, you're wrong - stuff that your side has been putting up for several days now.

I spent a lot of time composing my post. I am dissapointed that this is all you can find to show me I'm wrong. None of my substantive points have been addressed. Please get somebody over here that can offer a good rebuttal.

If I'm wrong I want to know because this is important stuff to me.

[Oversea Visitor]

96. Dear msmcghee

Would Isreal comes to an end if they gave back land they taken?
Would conflict end after that?

I cannot say for sure
But I do know this fighting going on for years and years.
Unless they want to try find solutions and do the best
They can all look forward to another 100 years of conflict.

We can talk talk and argue argue but it would not change REALITY
In the end it does not really matter if we Pro Isreal or Anti Isreal
More important is right path to peace.

Give up the West Bank and peace will come.
IF it dont the rest of the world will just whack all the whacko to kingdom come.
But gee the leader who suggest that sure to go kaput as what happen before.
So goodluck to their perpetual conflict.
Maybe one day they get it so bad they finally see the light.

[msmcghee]

48. Just to underscore what I was saying . .

Southeast Asian suicide bombers dispatched to attack Jewish interests: report

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2436172

I think it's entirely possible that these young men and women were told that even in America many are starting to come to our cause and that now is the time to give your life for the destruction of Israel and the victory of Islam over the west.

[JackNewtown]

80. "Victory of Islam over the west"

Where else have I heard people claim this is the objective of a vast Islamic conspiracy?

[msmcghee]

86. Not from me.

I said "some Arab / Persian states".

[4dsc]

58. Again with the misconceptions

Claiming Israel, who has tried mightily for sixty years to carve out a peaceful existence there is like claiming American settlers tried to peacefully coexisted with the Native American's..

Zionism is the agressor here and always has been..

[msmcghee]

62. Our taking of this continent was not the same thing.

Israel did not steal its land. It went to the League of Nations first and finally to the UN. As I said before, after studying the history of that, I believe that they made the best decision they could, under those conditions, at that time. You may disagree but we have to live with that decision and make the best of it. So do the Israelis and the Palestinians.

When the Palestinians renounce the use of force against Israel and imprison those who break that truce - instead of cheering them and making them into martyrs and choosing a terrorist organization to run their affairs (Hamas)- then I'll believe that the Palestinians deserve anywhere near the credibility that Israel deserves.

All of Israel's official acts (not psychos in Israel) have been in defense of her people and borders. Yes, Israel has often reacted very forcefully in her defense. But as long as her actions are defensive, it's not up to us to decide how much force Israel should use to protect the lives of her people. An argument can be made that Israel's actions have not been strong enough - otherwise the attacks against her would not be continuing. In all cases, if Israel was not defending against those who are out to destroy Israel - none of those defensive actions would be necessary.

I find it maddening that many here equate the violence used in defense of civilian lives from attack - with the violence that is used to attack those civilians. I would more expect that type of fuzzy thinking from the right than from the left - which I have always considered to be more reality based.

Here's a thought that just occurred to me: Is this why many in this country are skeptical of liberals' ability to defend America from attack? Do they think we will pity bad people who are out to kill us - because their weapons and army aren't as good as the people they attacked? Here's an opportunity where there is a clear cut attack against another country. Here's a chance to show the RW that we can be hard-nosed and practical when it comes to defending valid American interests.

No matter what their level - one is immoral and the other is moral - as long as one is offensive and the other is legitimately defensive. You have to give a lot of latitude to the defender. If you don't you invite more offensive attacks from those who will now think they have a chance to justify them to you. That is what causes innocent civilians to die. That is what has been happening with the increasingly sophisticated PR campaigns of Israel's enemies - and those campaigns are working based on many of the posts I see here at DU.

American settlers and cavalry were often not acting in defense. Their overall purpose and many specific acts were acts of genocide. I have seen no credible evidence that would place Israel in that category. She is defending the lives of her citizens occupying a land that was not a state that the world told her to occupy.

[whosinpower]

63. Come on

Lets take a look at that wall shall we? How is it that most if not all the water and best lands are designated in Israeli territory while the palestinians have been forced into small unsustainable enclaves? And you are telling me that this is not stealing land? Or how about those illegal settlements? That is not stealing land?

Your cousin sneezes on me - so in an effort to stop biological warfare - I bulldoze your house, seperate you from you land, cut you off from a water supply, subject you to military checkpoints,inhibit you from getting to and from your workplace, intimidate your children....but this is ok - because it is just me defending myself. It does not matter how proportinate my actions are - they are, after all defensive measures to protect myself from your attack.

[msmcghee]

66. OK - Let's look at the wall.

It is there to prevent suicide bombers from getting into Israel. If there were no suicide bombers there would be no wall. Defensive.

The Palestinians now find themselves in small unsustainable enclaves because they keep attacking Israel and calling for her destruction - and killing her citizens.

Every few years this builds to a breaking point and Israel rolls in with the tanks and takes some more land. When this goes on year after year Israel becomes more conservative and more hard lined - although amazingly many are still largely sympathetic to the Palestinians. But Israel is a democracy and eventually must do what the majority of her citizens demand.

Repeated attacks and the horrendous deaths of innocent Israeli women, children and families to suicide bombers who have pledged Israel's destruction will eventually make people somewhat unforgiving. That's why they keep losing more and more. Not because Israel originally wanted it to be that way.

The sad part is that the Palestinians and their dire plight are the best thing that ever happened to the Arab regimes in the region. By keeping the pot stirred, by financing the "brave struggle against Israel" they keep their own people fired up and not noticing that those same leaders are corrupt and stealing the wealth of the countries they lead.

But that's too complicated for many here who can't see anything more complex than the mean Israelis with their big tanks and M16's shooting at the poor defenseless Palestinians.

[whosinpower]

81. Sounds like

you are blaming the victim by saying it is the palestinians own fault their enclaves are unsustainable. They did not get a say in where the wall was to go. But that is the way the Likud party wants it. Palestinians are less worthy than Israeli's. When a palestinian snaps a bomb vest on and martyrs himself, he is a terrorist. Fair enough - I agree. When Israeli terrorists massacre the british at a hotel - it is a celebration.

The last leader who was close to having a realistic tangible peace deal was Rabin. They killed him for it. Israeli's killed their own leader because he was going to negotiate and make peace with Syria, Iran and Lebanon. He did it with Egypt and Jordon - and if he had actually succeeded with the nations I mentioned--then palestine would be a nation and Israel would have peace.....but they would not have all the land they feel they are entitled to and so Rabin must go and Israel must continue to stir the pot - claim victimhood for terror attacks and continue to claim/occupy land that does not belong to them. It is a land/resource grab. And that is where the defense claim shrivels to dust.

You mentioned the Camp David talks being the closest where Arafat walked out in disgust. I did some reading on the subject - and I can't say I blame Arafat for walking out. The intifada was not the answer however.
If he had accepted the most generous offer you mention - Palestine would of been forced into three seperate enclaves, completely cut off from the other and totally and utterly controlled by Israel. Not exactly my definition of generous. So - you state that it was not good enough for Arafat because he did not get Jeruselum - but that is not the whole story is it?

[msmcghee]

83. There are layers and layers of violent and cruel actions . .

. . on both sides. We can argue forever as to which ones were more or less justifiable. There will be no resolution to that approach. It is useless.

If you want peace there is only one way. You (we, the world) must demand an end - today - to attacks by one party against the other. If one party attacks the other they must be condemned and we should allow the attacked party to fully defend them self - and support them in that defense. That's what sensible nations do if they hope to have a peaceful world.

Hezbollah attacked Israel. They entered Israel and kidnapped two reservists who were patrolling on the Israeli side of the fence. Then they killed eight of the patrol that was sent in to retrieve them. That is an act of war, Israel has every right to defend herself and now to take out those thousands of missiles.

If you disagree then I can't believe you really care about peace.

[whosinpower]

87. Yes - there are layers and layers

Before the kidnappings there were Israeli kidnappings as well. When Israeli's kidnap elected palestinian officials--is this not an act of war? These were the same group that had finally finally acknowledged that Israel should exist......and they were kidnapped.

When Israel blows up a family having a picnic -- and then denies it even though the shrapnel at the site is clearly israeli....is this not trying to incite Hizbollah?????
When Israel attempts several times unsuccessfully at assasination attempts and kills innocent bystanders....is this not trying to incite Hizbollah???

Israel stirs up the pot--gets a reaction.....and then claims victimhood and self defense. Then invades and occupies Lebanon.
And you have the audacity to state that if I disagree with Israel's dispraportinate response that I am uninterested in peace?

If elements of Israel was ever interested in peace--Rabin would still be alive.

[msmcghee]

88. Jack, thanks but I'm getting worn out.

I'll take a break for a while and come back later. Thanks for keeping things civil. I think we both want to see an end to the violence - we just disagree about how to get there.

But we shouldn't feel too bad about that since people have been trying for 2000 years at least and not doing any better than us. :toast:

[breakaleg]

93. the land is unsustainable because of the settlements and the maze

of roads breaking up the entire area. Oh, and let's not forget Israel taking the water for themselves.

[JackNewtown]

82. "American settlers and cavalry were often not acting in defense"

Americans were attacked by the natives for taking their land, similar to the dynamic between the Palestinians and Israelis today. Why didn't Americans have the same right to fight back that Israel has? The Americans just wanted peace--and some more land and resources--but the natives wouldn't leave them alone. Did you expect the Americans to sit back and do nothing when attacked?

[msmcghee]

84. As I have explained . .

. . Israel took no land originally. She occupied a territory that the UN and the world agreed could become a homeland for Jews after WWII. Any additonal land has been the result of armed conflicts initated by the rabs - not by Israel. The land Israel retained and did not return was deemed necessary to provide military buffers from Arab states who had attacked, were taken as the proceeds of war which israel did not start or were possibly held for trading later - land for peace.

The US had a policy of taking the land from Native Americans and exterminating them. The US did not go to any international body and ask permission. Israel did.

The US attacked native Americans to kill them and take their land. Israel has never attacked the Arabs or Palestinians except in defense from those who attacked her - and who have pledged the destruction of Israel.

This is getting tiresome.

[JackNewtown]

94. You can't have it both ways on the UN and world community

The world does not recognize Israel's occupation of lands gained in 1967.

The US did not go to an international body because no such body existed.

The US policy was not to exterminate the Native Americans. The longtime policy was to constantly push them further west and then finally the policy was to confine them to small parcels of land. In other words, the policy was to acquire more and more land from them--which was done militarily, which you say justifies Israel's 1967 land gains--and then unilaterally declare the final borders of the land held by the whites while offering the natives some crumbs. Sound familiar?

[breakaleg]

98. those settlements aren't providing military buffers. they are

interspersed throughout the entire West Bank!

If they were a buffer they would be concentrated along the West Bank border with Israel. Not located around water sources and such.

[JackNewtown]

64. Israel is the only "real democracy" in the ME?

Democracies rule 3 million people against their will while subjugating them and taking their land? Why doesn't Israel allow the Palestinians to have a democratic vote on whether they enjoy being ruled by Israel and supporting colonization of the West Bank?

[msmcghee]

70. Democracies allow their citizens to . .

. . elect their leaders. They don't give the Palestininans a say because the Palestinians have said that only want to destroy Israel. That is a vote and they made it. They have never desired to coexist. If they had they'd probably be enjoying freedom in their own state with larger boundaries than they have now and great prosperity by now.

[breakaleg]

91. that one phrase sure gets a lot of mileage on here

"they said they want to destroy Israel" is the reponse to just about every question or criticism of Israel around here.

It's like the one answer to every question posed.

[JackNewtown]

95. "They don't give the Palestininans a say"

There can be no doubt about that democratic practice by Israel in Palestine. We all know why the Palestinians are not given the right to self-determination: they--like every other people on Earth--don't want to be ruled by a foreign power and they don't want their land taken by a foreign power. It is surprising how many US progressives support this, although progressives everywhere else are united against this...

[IndianaGreen]

90. Lebanon was the only real democracy in the Middle East

and it is now being pulverized by apartheid Israel.

We are all going to end up losers!

[JackNewtown]

97. Lebanon is not a democracy

If democratic elections produce results not approved by Washington and Tel Aviv you don't qualify to be a real democracy. ;)

[IndianaGreen]

99. Bush has a twisted concept of freedom and democracy

that is so Orwellian that I recoil when I hear him say those words.

[JackNewtown]

101. FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

Freedom for THEM is slavery to the corporate agenda. :scared:

[Lithos]

111. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article