Israel attacks USS Liberty killing American sailors

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

june 3, 1967.

www.ussliberty.com

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby

"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson

[NoPasaran]

1. Redcoats march to Lexington, massacre patriots!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Napolean Stopped At Waterloo.

Custer Meets Unexpected Resistance At Little Big Horn.

[Joanne98]

2. But, but, it was an accident!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. You Know

"We" blew an Iranian civilian airliner right out of the sky killing all 290 on board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655





I hope you think that's an accident.

[Ian David]

12. The Israelis also just shot down their own helicopter

Clinton bombed the Chinese embassy.

The Russians shot down KAL Flight 007.

All of those must be intentional.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Didn't "We" Kill A Bunch Of Canadian Soldiers In Afghanistan

in a friendly fire incident also.

[Ian David]

25. I think we should surrender to Canada.

The United States of AmeriDa welcomes President Wayne Gretsky as our liberator.

We will greet the dogsleds of our new Canadian masters with Hot Chocolate and flowers.

[acmejack]

29. Easily proved or disproved

Aegis system has a neat toy called Data Extraction and Recording System (DERS) Guess what? It records and can totally recreate the entire event down to the last detail as it was seen ans responded to by the Vincennes. So what occurred there is and never was a mystery.

Secondly, if it was an error, the Commanding officer of the Vincennes would have been relieved within 24 hours, he wasn't-end of story. Allegedly the airliner had military IFF assumed attack profile, which would be very curious behavior.

Upshot is, a team of experts could examine the DERS data and conclusively state yea or nay in a matter of an hour. provided the true , uncorrupted, unmodified data was supplied to them. A big if nowadays, modifying it is a snap.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

40. Well

I think the shooting down of the Iranian civilian airliner was a tragic mistake but American hubris prevented a full apology.

[cali]

4. Americans blow

Iranian passenger jet out of the sky.

[Poppyseedman]

13. I recently saw an show about how this happened when

Flight 655 was blown out of the sky.

It was a pretty thorough analysis. I had forgetton completely about this incident until then.

[still_one]

5. another thread on the Liberty

I am sure there is NOT an agenda going on here

[Cooley Hurd]

10. What makes the Liberty attack relevant is that...

...the speculation that the IDF attacked the USS Liberty because they were afraid the US would find out about the IDF's massacre of 1000 Egyptian soldiers - and the speculation that the UN outpost was hit last week for the same reason (to keep prying eyes away from add'l IDF war crimes).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. You Know Those Claims Are Hotly Contested

But I'm not going to waste a perfectly beautiful morning trying to disabuse you of the notion that Israel did it on purpose.

[Cooley Hurd]

21. But, there are claims nonetheless...

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. Some People Claim That Slavery Was A "Benign" Institution

or that the holocaust never occurred.

[H2O Man]

30. Yet no rational person

claims that the USS Liberty incident is real. Rational people can and do have very different opinions on what took place. People who are interested can read a variety of books and articles about it. For example, Jay Cristol authored the 2001 book "The Liberty Incident," which took the position that the June 8, 1967 air and sea attack was an accident. As you likely know, Cristol filed a request under the Freedom of Information Act for the release of all intercept material related to the incident that the NSA had. It became a curious legal struggle, and the results are worth considering when one attempts to determine what took place on that tragic day.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. I Agree.

The issue is hotly contested. No minds will be changed.I just don't see the point of bringing it up in the current instance except to inflame passions on both sides. It is more prejudicial than probative.

[H2O Man]

45. For many people

it serves as an extreme example of the negative aspects of the US relations with Israel. For many other people, it is upsetting to have it mentioned, because it can serve to stir emotions rather than rational discussion, or even debate.

I am reminded of the philosopher Karl Jaspers, who said that every real dialogue is "loving combat." We can have frank and open discussions on DU about this growing violence in the Middle East, and have people take very different positions, yet keep it the loving combat of "real diologue" that Jaspers spoke of.

[Cooley Hurd]

53. I brought up the Liberty attack last week for one reason...

...because of the similarities between it and the attack on the UN peacekeeping outpost in southern Lebanon (both were claimed to have been mistakes by the IDF, and both were frought with speculation that they were intentional). Then, as now, I've been accused of linking (the USS Liberty survivors' website) to a neo-nazi website. The person making these accusations has yet to prove his clam that the website in question is linked to either neo-nazis or holocaust deniers.

[acmejack]

39. I have to believe what the actual crew members have said took place.

"Yet no rational person claims that the USS Liberty incident is real." Coming from you, I find this stunning, surely I am missing something?

There is no doubt that the IDF deliberatly attempted to sink an unarmed ship they knew was an American military ship. There is no doubt they made multiple attempts to do so. There is no doubt the US attempted to suppress the story.

[H2O Man]

55. "stunning"

There is no question that the incident took place. There are very different opinions regarding if it were an accident or on purpose. I did not give my opinion. I'm not sure how that rates as "stunning."

[still_one]

18. BS, the Liberty is NOT based on a recent news or op-ed article.

There is only one purpose of this thread

[Ian David]

7. Why are you linking to Holocaust Revisionists and neo-nazis? n/t

[Cooley Hurd]

11. Can you PLEASE show us the neo-nazi links on the Liberty site?

I've scanned it and found nothing of the sort. :shrug:

[Ian David]

14. I did that over a week ago last time someone posted neo-nazi propoganda

Go google it yourself, or ask the original poster if he knows Mr. Ayak.

[Cooley Hurd]

19. I'm asking you to prove your assertion that the Liberty site links to...

...neo-nazis. I went over the ENTIRE site and found nothing of the sort.

If you cannot prove your assertion, then you should refrain from making disparaging remarks about the Liberty survivors...

[Ian David]

32. The last time I pointed this out, the mods deleted the whole thread

I just wasted five minutes of my life doing your homework for you. It looks like the whole Liberty Lobby thread is gone.

But I'll go ahead and re-create my work for you, and be your google slave.

[Cooley Hurd]

36. Thank you - if you can prove your claim*, I will apologize and stand...

...corrected.:thumbsup:

BTW - the site linked in the OP has nothing to do with the Liberty Lobby. It is a USS liberty survivor's website.

On edit: just to remind you - by "your claim," I mean that you are calling the USS Liberty survivor's website with neo-nazis and holocaust revisionists - I check the entire site and found nothing.:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. The Liberty Incident Was Exploited By The Far Right

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Lobby

[Cooley Hurd]

24. That's correct, but the site in question is a Liberty survivors'

...website, and they've taken GREAT pains to disavow the neo-nazis and holocaust revisionists.

I'm a naval historian - that's why this matters to me.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Subscribe To Occam's Razor

When you eliminate all the possibilities the most logical possibility is correct. It was a tragic mistake like our shooting down that Iranian civilian airliner.

[Cooley Hurd]

34. The Iranian airliner incident was a single missile fired from...

...a great distance. The attack on Liberty was sustained for over an hour by several aircraft and torpedo boats (that passed within yards of the Liberty, despite the fact that she was clearly marked as a US navy ship.

[Ian David]

38. The Original Poster is linking to a neo-nazi site

1) The site is a member of "The Patriot Webring," which is for neo-nazis and white supremacists
This site is a member of: Patriot Webring
http://www.patriotwebring.com/ring/patriotwebring.php

2) The key book sold on the site is by James M. Ennes, who is a known associate of Holocaust Revisionists such as Ernst Zundel. He is also associated with White Supremacists like Stormfront.



Do I need to go on?

Neo-Nazi "Patriot" site.

PERIOD!

Now, next time, do your own due diligence. Google is your friend. I'll leave the rest of the follow-up to you. I don't feel like being your google-slave, since I already did this last week.

[Cooley Hurd]

43. I went thru all of the links on the patriot webring...

...and they're ALL veterans' sites. Can you show me a specific link?:shrug:

[Phrogman]

47. No way, you need to read the survivors accounts

After the initial areal attack they were torpedoed and strafed, all the while their communications were being jammed hard to prevent the crew from getting help or reporting their position.

An accident my ass, the Liberty attack was deliberate and planned.

[Ian David]

44. Who is also a member of the "Patriot Movement" ala Oklahoma City Bombing

[Ian David]

8. Wow, what enthusiasm you seem to have for your hatred of Israel

Amazingly, it's the only place in the world where the survivors of The Holocaust have left to go.

What a great Final Solution it would be if everyone shared your enthusiasm.

[Zynx]

9. And your point to this is...

what? Are we having a historical discussion here?

[Poppyseedman]

16. Certainly an incident from 40 years ago

is relevant today........................

[H2O Man]

17. Interesting reactions

to this OP.

[cali]

31. Why? What's so interesting?

And what is the OP's point? The Liberty has been brought up many times in the last two weeks. Usually the threads are locked. What does the Liberty have to do with what's going on now? Do we bring up the blowing up of the Iranian passenger jet every time we discuss Iraq or Iran?

[H2O Man]

35. With all due respect,

the reaction is interesting to me, but your opinion is not. I respect that you have the right to your opinion. I respect that others have the right to their opinion. I do not anticipate that everyone will have the same opinion.

[Ian David]

41. Because some people froth at the mouth for a stick to beat Jews with?

Notice I phrased it as a question.

[H2O Man]

56. Silly.

A fine example of that frothing at the mouth, indeed.

[still_one]

26. Perhaps we could bring up the fire bombing of Dresden

during world war II. That seems like a pertinant discussion. Perhaps we can attribute that to Israel's policies today also?

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

27. i'm just a simple navy veteran, my father enlisted in the navy on

dec. 8, 1941. my brother joined the navy when he was 17.

you name callers can kiss my ass.

[jonnyblitz]

42. I am a navy vet also and I agree with your post.

the name callers can go get fucked.

[still_one]

48. read post 46

[acmejack]

33. Another Navy Veteran who is forced to stand beside GCG!

I'm with you on this one shipmate, I don't care if it was a century ago. Oops don't cut it. It was a deliberate attack meant to kill American Sailors. You don't machine gun lifeboats period. I hold a grudge.

[still_one]

46. no argument about the incident

but perhaps you would like to comment on the Fire Bombing of Dresden during WWII. It had NOTHING to do with winning the war. It was aimed entirely at killing civillians

Maybe you would like to comment on Muslim killing Muslim in Iraq, or the Iranians who took over the U.S embasy in Tehran?

Maybe we should talking about the genocide of the Native Americans here, or slavery

This issue is NOT about the Liberty, it is to relate an incident 40 years ago to today

Let's talk about May Lai, and tell me how honorable American soldiers were then. They did kill babbies!!!

[Cooley Hurd]

49. I cannot speak for the OP, but I posted about the Liberty attack last week

...after the IDF hit the UN outpost, killing 4 peacekeepers. The speculation at the time was that it was hit to keep the UN from finding out about possible war crimes being committed by the IDF. That was similar to the speculation on why the IDF attacked Liberty (the relevance being historical in nature).

Of course, I was called a neo-nazi for posting a link to the USS Liberty survivors' website.:crazy:

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

52. i posted this because i hadn't seen any posts..

now, i know why. they get moved to the hatfield/mccoy forum which i never visit.

[still_one]

54. as much as our views may differ on issues

I would never call someone that for bringing up this issue. My argument is that it is not relevent to the current situation, and not only is a distraction, but incorrectly extrapolates an incident that happened in the past to the current government policy.

Am I to infer that what happened at My Lai applies to all soldiers, or even government policy? After all, Cally and the others involved were pardoned by Nixon.

[newyorican]

50. Navy Vet here also...

That's N-A-V-Y.

Not Planes over Dresden.

Not Marines in the Jungle.

It's very odd that events in Germany over 60 years ago always seem to be so pertinent, but referencing other (more recent, but still historical) event is not.

[Lithos]

51. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

As an aside.

This is an old, inflammatory, and speculative discussion extremely well trod in the I/P forum and elsewhere on DU. The effect of bringing this up usually NEVER revolves around any meaningful discussion of the events of that day or the people involved, but rather becomes a club for people to swing in a highly counter-productive and insensitive manner.

There are many Golden Hammers that people bring along, such as this one. It is a greedy reductionism that adds nothing to the debate and often adds barriers to any meaningful discussion.


Lithos
DU Moderator

[sabbat hunter]

57. why bring up

something that happened 40 years ago.

what is the point?

[undergroundrailroad]

58. Locking per I/P Guidelines

Locking