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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 04:46 AM
Original message
Shouting not talking
As Israel's government edges towards the ultimate injustice - a unilateral delineation of its national borders and a concomitant, permanent expropriation of Palestinian land - its statements grow ever more shrill. It is as if it believes that by noisy remonstrance, exaggerated rhetoric and threats of ever greater violence, it can somehow conceal or disguise the intrinsic injustice of its adopted policy and the immorality of its daily actions.

Ehud Olmert, Israel's prime minister, turned up the volume again on Monday evening, sending barbed words crashing like unguided artillery shells into the grim, broken barrios of Gaza. The capture of the Israeli soldier, Corporal Gilad Shalit, and the Palestinian attack that preceded it were part and parcel of a "murderous, hateful, fanatical Islamic extremist desire to destroy that state of Israel," he said. In truth, the attack appears to have been belated, wrongheaded retaliation for the killing of nearly two dozen Palestinain civilians, including seven children, by Israel's army in the past four weeks.

Palestinian violence against Israelis, including rocket attacks launched from Gaza, is not and cannot be justified. It must cease - because it is wrong and because it hinders the realisation of Palestinian aspirations. But all the angry adjectives in the world cannot hide the fact that Mr Olmert also carries heavy responsibility for the latest mayhem, as well as the plight of Cpl Shalit.

It is his policy that keeps Gaza under siege and almost constant bombardment. It is he and his cabinet colleagues who, trying to out-Sharon Sharon, seek to persuade the US and other countries that there is no partner for peace on the Palestinian side, thereby justifying their self-made boundaries and walls, their shootings, missile strikes and incursions. And it is they who, by these same actions, weaken and undermine that unacknowledged partner, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, whose desire for negotiations, not more bloodshed, has been amply demonstrated by his decision to confront Hamas hardliners.

If Mr Olmert sets in train the large-scale, unconstrained invasion of Gaza that he now threatens, what does he think will be the result of this latest over-reaction? The story is depressingly familiar: many deaths, disproportionately on the Palestinian side, both military and civilian; more destruction, more traumatised children, more ruined schools and broken homes; thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of refugees pushing across the border into Egypt; and, in all likelihood, the death of the very soldier Mr Olmert wants to save.

More at;
Guardian Unlimited

Simon Tisdall is an assistant editor of the Guardian and a foreign affairs columnist. He was previously a foreign leader writer for the paper and has also served as its foreign editor and its US editor, based in Washington DC. He was the Observer’s foreign editor from 1996-98.



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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. tsk tsk....wrong information....
In truth, the attack appears to have been belated, wrongheaded retaliation for the killing of nearly two dozen Palestinain civilians, including seven children, by Israel's army in the past four weeks.

a 800 meter tunnel takes months to build......so much for his wish that its a mistake in judgment on the part of the palestenians. Its more like a preplanned attack across the border......sorry for ruining a simplistic thesis that makes the israeli efforts to retrieve the solder israels fault
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Poppyseedman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Oops, You did it now.
This article has so many half truths and misinformation it's almost funny, if the situation wasn't so serious

Palestinians propaganda is sucked up around here like the nectar of the gods.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Maybe you'd like to point out some of these many half truths?
n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent article...
n/t
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Thanks Vi, it is.
The Guardian's a great source for articles such as this, there aren't any fantastical fantasies,
or articles about how the Pyramids were built by ET, in the Guardian...

;)
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. or 800meter long tunnels
being built within a month.....fantasies just like ET and the Guardians articles...but then just a simple fact
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. The bit that stood out for me...
..was this...

"Palestinian violence against Israelis, including rocket attacks launched from Gaza, is not and cannot be justified. It must cease - because it is wrong and because it hinders the realisation of Palestinian aspirations. But all the angry adjectives in the world cannot hide the fact that Mr Olmert also carries heavy responsibility for the latest mayhem, as well as the plight of Cpl Shalit.

It is his policy that keeps Gaza under siege and almost constant bombardment. It is he and his cabinet colleagues who, trying to out-Sharon Sharon, seek to persuade the US and other countries that there is no partner for peace on the Palestinian side, thereby justifying their self-made boundaries and walls, their shootings, missile strikes and incursions. And it is they who, by these same actions, weaken and undermine that unacknowledged partner, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, whose desire for negotiations, not more bloodshed, has been amply demonstrated by his decision to confront Hamas hardliners."

imo The Guardian is one of the best sources round for articles on the I/P conflict, though those who prefer their sources more along the lines of Masada2000 may disagree :)

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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I have a problem with the first two sentences
I think it is politically foolish to kill civilians. Frankly, it is sad to see anyone die. But it is a war and civilians die on both sides. As a military matter it is very difficult to target Israeli soldiers without killing civilians - and look at the wrath that Olmert threatens over one soldier held hostage. Peaceful means are obviously prefereable - the problem is that there are no peaceful means left. The Palestinians have no leverage - Oslo and Wye River and the intifada have all failed.

The US contribution to "the peace process" is nil because the US is no longer suited to be an intermediary in the dispute as long as this Administration is in office; it is hawkishly pro-Israeli because of the "War on Terror" and Israel's influence in the US. Meanwhile, Israel continues its settlement expansion. In short, the US and Israel both support the status quo: a war of low level intensity.

So I don't think rocket attacks from Gaza really "hinder Palestinians aspiraitons."
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Scorpio2000 Donating Member (144 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. LOL
"So I don't think rocket attacks from Gaza really "hinder Palestinians aspiraitons.""


Considering "palestinians" aspire to kill Israelis.

Yeah, it's just normal tactics for negotiating peace.

But seriously, if the Gazans spent as much time and energy building infrastructure as they have pursuing their "aspirations", they could have a vibrnt economy.

There are plenty of folks lining up to purchase products made by Gazans. Trouble is, there aren't any. Money and energy is going into kassams and katyushas.

The average guy on the street doesn't stand a chance against the thugs who are insuring that they remain on the dole.

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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-29-06 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. ROTFL
Capitalists by the millions are just lining up to put capital in the "New Israeli-occupied Demilitarized Zone."

"Money and energy are going in to kassams and katyushas"because Israel occupies Gaza.

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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. intifada I worked.....
intifada II was a massive failure......the difference is where the solution lies
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. No matter how many articles are written there will be . . .
no peace process, no road map, no accords emanating from negotiations abroad, no withdrawal from the West Bank, no end to the death and carnage, no end to the misery of the Palestinian people.

The low intensity war will continue.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. there might be...
if the palestenians put some effort into building an economy and society in gaza as opposed to shooting rockets across the border, digging tunnels etc.....their choice....they made a poor one.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Haven't you gotten the memo yet, Tom?
We're supposed to blame the Palestinians for everything, no matter what it is, and absolve Israel of any part in it by calling the authors of articles like this one *Mockers Of Israel* ;)
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. somethings are complicated..
Edited on Wed Jun-28-06 06:44 AM by pelsar
as in the westbank (where israel has more than its share of the blame)....gaza is not:

israel attempted to break the cycle, by leaving gaza, left the egyptians and palestenians a border without israel......

all the ingrediants were available for the palestenians to start a society, they lacked nothing to start in fact they were even given greenhouses with a ready made market

Instead of doing something positive with what they had, they proceeded to destroy the greenhouses, attack many of the Intls there and attack israel, as well as the egyptians......

in the case of gaza, yes, the situation is their responsability....
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Silly me! How could I forget?
It is the Palestinians own fault that they live in misery. They moved to Palestine and brought all the problems on themselves. It is verboten to write articles that treat Palestinians as if they might actually be human. I am so sorry for my sins! ;-)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Tempting as it is to
respond in the same silly tone, I think I'll resist. The truth is the Palestinians do have to take some responsibility for their misery. I don't know how to break it down into a mathmatics of fault, but those who state that it's all evil Israel are being just as silly as those who claim it's all the Palestinians fault. Not to mention, that I didn't notice anyone on this thread claiming that Israel was innocent as a shorn lamb. The claim that people are refusing to treat Palestinians as human is pretty much bogus. Most people in this forum recognize that people on both sides are human. There are those that consider Palestinians terrorists or supporters of terrorists, and then there are those that claim Israelis are fascists and Nazi like and fair game for Palestinian violence. Such hyperbole on either side of the debate doesn't do much good.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. differentiate past from present and future.....
When israel occupied Gaza, the Palestinians were not responsible for their situation.....now they are. Whether the climb out of their misery or wallow in it, is up to them......

That too is part of being human, part of being part of a culture a society....some fail, some succeed.....your "sin" is giving the Palestinians excuses now, thats the last thing they need. Making a society is not easy under normal circumstances, the Palestinians with so many cheerleading them on to keep on killing and keep on looking for excuses to NOT create a society is exactly what they dont need.

what they need is for groups like the ISM to start patrolling the borders with when the kassam people come....tell them no and give them a "pamphlet" that describes the new university and the courses they can take for a new profession.....
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
18. Simon missed the crucial point...
and that is that if you change some dates and names, Simon could have written this same thing 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

    The story is depressingly familiar: many deaths, disproportionately on the Palestinian side, both military and civilian; more destruction, more traumatised children, more ruined schools and broken homes; thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of refugees pushing across the border into Egypt;


You said it Simon -- The story IS depressingly familiar...and what does that suggest, Sir?

That is Israels peace plan...this is the 'road map'

Western journalists 'never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity'
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