Sen. Clinton: I support W. Bank fence, PA must fight terrorism

[seriousstan]

U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton said Sunday that she supports the separation fence Israel is building along the edges of the West Bank, and that the onus is on the Palestinian Authority to fight terrorism.

"This is not against the Palestinian people," Clinton, a New York Democrat, said during a tour of a section of the barrier being built around Jerusalem.

"This is against the terrorists. The Palestinian people have to help to prevent terrorism. They have to change the attitudes about terrorism."
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/644798.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[papau]

58. Sadly the fence is needed at this time - As is a peace that removes

Israel from the vast majority of the West Bank - and tears down the fence eventually.

These would seem to be obvious - but on DU we let no chance to dump on Hillary or Israel go by unused.

Not that there are not reasons to dump on both - but they seem minor to me relative to Hillary, and while much more major relative to Israel, I do not see many saying the PA should have signed on to Taba.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Good for her!

The only point I would alter is "The Palestinian people have to help to prevent terrorism. They have to change the attitudes about terrorism." should actually be "The Palestinian Authority has to help to prevent terrorism. They have to change the attitudes about terrorism."

On edit: HOLY SHIT! That has to be the FASTEST move from LBN to I/P EVER! One minute!

[EFerrari]

3. Our mods are gunslingers.

:)

[DaveColorado]

4. What was the dif between her and shrub again?

A vagina?

[EFerrari]

9. I better not even start. Yeah, a vagina.

The level of privilege is pretty much on par. :(

[Behind the Aegis]

5. This is true of some.

I have seen some work very fast. However, since this is about American policy/politicians and I/P is is still fair game, so to speak, for the LBN forum, so I was a little surprised.

[Carolab]

6. The wall is apartheid and it will fail, just as the Berlin wall did.

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-niva080804.htm

Do you think the wall between Mexico and the U.S. is also a good way to stem immigration?

[Behind the Aegis]

8. It is a good idea.

Once the PA establishes a terrorist-free homeland and is willing to declare, in the very least, a truce with Israel, then the wall will serve no purpose and come down.

Would a US-Mexican wall stem immigration? Illegal immigration. It would put a HUGE dent in it. But, there will always be ways into the US. Just as this wall has largely stemmed terrorist attacks, but hasn't stopped them fully...only a co-operative PA will help do that.

[EFerrari]

11. Who exactly is "them", in your opinion?

Really, sometimes it's hard to believe I'm reading a progressive website.

You need to revisit what this wall means to Palestinians, just plain folk. And apparently, so does Senator Clinton.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. I agree...it is hard to believe that this is a progressive site sometimes

"THEM" is who I said...terrorists. Which is why I altered Sen. Clinton's statement. Most Palestinians are not terrorists, and I doubt they support terrorist activities. However, it is their government, the PA, which must step up to the plate and do something about it!

[EFerrari]

18. By the same lame logic, you and I should be rounded up

until Chimp stops terrorizing other countries and torturing.

Geezus.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Would you be at all...

...suprised if Mexico and Canada built their own walls to keep us out?

[EFerrari]

28. Yes. Because last time I looked, those countries weren't being

run by nutjobs and those cultures promote human rights.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. The PA promotes human rights?!?!

You are kidding right?!

[EFerrari]

33. We were talking about Canada and Mexico?

[Behind the Aegis]

37. As analogy...

...but I guess it better to say that than answer the question.

[EFerrari]

42. I answered your question. And will happily answer any you

pose.

This whole bully thing doesn't work when fact, reality or morality isn't on your side.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Does the PA (the government) support human rights?

Do they intend to STOP the terrorists in THEIR midst?

[EFerrari]

48. The topic was the wall.

The PA is obviously full of crooks and liars. Although recently, it looks like there is some movement there.

But, that's OT. The topic here was Hilary Clinton endorsing the punishment of a whole population for the crimes of a few.

Ever heard of a town called Fallujah? Did you support that action, too?

[Behind the Aegis]

51. The Wall.

Until the PA actually shows they are serious about protecting their people by not killing Israelis, the wall will reamin.

Fallujah? By your own post, this is about the wall!

[Violet_Crumble]

61. The PA hasn't been killing Israelis...

Along the same vein, I've now decided that until the Israeli govt stops killing Palestinians, the Palestinians should build a big whopping wall taking in parts of Israel ;)

[Carolab]

34. Hmmm, but does the US?

Look again.

[Carolab]

14. From the post I linked to above:

At best, one can claim only marginal support for claims about the barrier's effectiveness.

Fortunately, in contrast to Israel's most strident supporters in the United States, many Israeli security analysts and peace activists have clearly seen the writing on Israel's wall and recognize the danger inherent in its construction. In a strongly worded recent editorial in Israel's prestigious Ha'aretz newspaper, the Israeli writer Yoel Esteron warns that:

"The result will be more and more terror that circumvents the fence; the longer the occupation continues, the more horrible the terror. The fence will not stop it for long, it will only make it more sophisticated and more terrible. Here is an urgent proposal to the agenda for Israelis from the center and leftward: Let's dismantle the fence."

The recent ruling by the International Court of Justice should be endorsed by those who genuinely care about Israel's security. Palestinian human rights are an essential component of Israeli security, not a clashing imperative or marginal concern. The best way for Israel to ensure its security needs is to immediately dismantle the barrier and withdraw its soldiers and settlers behind defensible borders, namely the 1967 border with the West Bank and Gaza, alongside a viable and independent Palestinian state that has the ability and every incentive to police its militants.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Wrong!

You should look up more information. The truth is the only ones who care about Israelis are Israelis. The US right only uses them for right-wing "end-of-times" fantasies, the other right wingers use her for a jumping off point in the ME and as a scapegoat, and the US left uses them as the reason there is no peace in the Middle East!

[Carolab]

27. Did you read it?

many Israeli security analysts and peace activists have clearly seen the writing on Israel's wall and recognize the danger inherent in its construction. In a strongly worded recent editorial in Israel's prestigious Ha'aretz newspaper, the Israeli writer Yoel Esteron warns that: {snip}

You are going to argue with Israeli security analysts and activists and with Ha'aretz that the wall is a bad idea? Are these not Israelis?

Seems to me it's Israelis committing aggression at this time:

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/645188.html

[Behind the Aegis]

31. It is Israel

And unlike the PA territories, they actually have a free-press that can and does disagree with and speaks against its government...can the PA boast the same?

[Violet_Crumble]

62. So you are arguing with Israeli security analysts?

I'll take the lack of an answer to the question as a resounding yes...

[eyl]

66. "marginal support"?

Statistics show that since the barrier's construction, terrorist attacks inside the Green Line have fallen off drastically.

[EFerrari]

12. Thank you. n/t

[rucky]

23. wallsforbrownpeople.org

ok, it doesn't exist, but who would be surprised if it did?

[EFerrari]

29. Hey -- I might have to go buy that.

:)

[Carolab]

40. Here's one

http://www.stopthewall.org/

[EFerrari]

43. Thank you.

:toast:

[rpannier]

7. Something that was mentioned on MBC in Korea

MBC here in Korea has a rather liberal (leftist) commentator and he made an interesting observation in early October. His observation was this:

If there are two unprotected peace rallies one in Israel and one in the Palestinian areas what would happen?
You would have a reasonably high risk that the Hamas, or another anti-Israeli group, would send in homicide bombers and kill as many Israeli's as they could. You have zero risk that Israel, or any Israeli group, would do the same to the Palestinians.
That's the difference between the two countries.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Good point.

However, I don't think there would be "zero" risk at an unprotected Palestinian rally in the West Bank. Israel has her share of wackos too!

[rpannier]

20. My apologies

I misquoted him...he did say almost zero chance. I forgot type in the almost

[EFerrari]

13. Right! So, you punish the entire population for Hamas!

Brilliant!

[rpannier]

16. No

You try and protect the Israeli populace because of terrorist groups.

[EFerrari]

19. At the expense of the Palestinian people!

We have a winner!

[Behind the Aegis]

25. There is the winner...

...it doesn't matter if it is at the expense of the Israeli people!

[EFerrari]

36. That doesn't follow.

If there is a crime gang in one city, is it right to punish the whole city?

Take your time.

[Behind the Aegis]

38. LA Riots

The whole city was locked down. It was not the only city to suffer such things because of crazies. So was it right to punish the whole city or better to regain control?

[EFerrari]

53. False dilemma. False comparison. False solution.

So, in your view, it's just dandy to punish a whole people for the crimes of a criminal gang? I hope you never run for office.

Have a good night.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Poor understanding.

I never said it was "dandy." Sometimes, it is needed to maintain order, it doesn't make it right, just a reality.

[rpannier]

45. When was the last time you saw the Palestinian people rally

against groups like Hamas? You don't really see it. I have sympathy for the Palestinians and I usually side with Arab groups on most issues. But, let's be honest, when a suicide bomber kills 50 civilians or hits a school, the response you get from Palestinians is, "They deserved it." "Israeli's are evil." etc. If the Israeli's hit an insurgent group and kill 9 people then all we hear from Palestinians are, "Israeli Murderers!" etc.
The Palestinian people for the most part are victims. They were victimized by Arafats government, they're victimized by the present government, they're victimized by terror groups and by foreign governments.
The Israeli government has an obligation to protect their own people. The Palestinian government and its people have done little to stem the violence against Israeli's.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. Again...good points...

Look at the current situation in Jordan. It started out as "to Hell with al-Qaida" and has turned into "The Israelis are responsible." Hell, look at some of the posters here, no matter that they claimed they did it, someone was even caught and confessed, Arab press has retracted "the Israelis got out early," and STILL it is Israel's fault and all about false flag operations!

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Right!

So you let YOUR people get blown to bits because your supposed partner refuses to do a damn thing about them.

[EFerrari]

26. There is no partnership between Isreal and the Palestinians.

So, don't even try that.

It is immoral, flat out wrong, to punish an entire population for the wrongdoing of their leadership.

Tell you what. You stop Rumsfeld by a deadline, or we'll wall you in. After all, if you refuse to do anything about him, you deserve it.

:wtf:

[Behind the Aegis]

35. And THERE is the fucking problem!

You want a homeland, then negotiate, don't expect it handed to you, then bitch because you didn't get everything you wanted.

[EFerrari]

39. You are skirting the issue of the Isreali government

committing crimes against civilians.

Civilians.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. No...you are skirting the issue of...

...a certain party that wants control of the new Palestinian nation that has a motto of wipping Israel from the map. If the current PA would actually grow some balls and make the Hamas and IJ disarm, then things would shape up much differently.

[EFerrari]

46. I haven't skirted anything. (Skirting: to avoid)

I keep pointing out to you the basic immorality of punishing an entire population for the crimes of a criminal gand, and you've yet to address that issue.

That's what Hilary Clinton is supporting. And, that's pretty disgusting.

[Behind the Aegis]

47. And I think....

...the population is obligated to do something about it correct it, with in legal means, not blowing up malls!

[EFerrari]

49. You seem to have this strange inability to distinguish between

criminals and plain folk.

You're an American and so was Tim McVeigh. Maybe you are dangerous and should be locked up? :eyes:

[Behind the Aegis]

55. And you have the strange inability to see what is in front of you.

Sometimes, the collective is punished for the few. It may not be right, but it does happen. Example: I have 3 younger brothers, a vase is broken, we all get punished because no one came forward. Is it "fair" that all four of us suffer because one of us did it? NO! But, it happens!

A larger scale. A certain neighborhood is on curfew because of recent riots. IS it fair to the non-rioters? No. But until some of them come forward to set things straight or until order is restored, that is what happens. Life is not always fair, but people shouldn't have to die needlessly.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Collective punishment MAY not be right?????

How about a categorical statement that it is NEVER right? That cutesy little attempt at a family analogy is in no way comparable with the punishment by an occupying power of an entire population for the crimes of others. Sheez, and unless you've lived somewhere where there's been rioting, you wouldnt be kind of aware that most folk not involved in the rioting aren't exactly rushing to go out in those conditions, so how exactly is a curfew punishing them?

[eyl]

65. I take it you support

a full reconquest by the IDF of all the Palestinian territories? Because that is the only way it would be even remotely possible for Israel to affect only the terrorists. In fact, the more the Israel withdraws, the more you'll see collective punishment, inevitably.

[4freethinking]

21. Senator Clinton supports land theft and collective punishment

NS

[EFerrari]

32. Welcome to DU 4freethinking.

:hi:

I think Senator Clinton should fire her consultants and meditate on the good grassroots work she used to do.

But, that was a long time ago, wasn't it?

[4freethinking]

52. To show she really

cares about Israel she needs to hire AIPAC consultants. Hillary 2008!
She is showing that she is for the status quo when it comes to foreign policy. When it comes to Israel her minds in the right place. Right where AIPAC wants it to be.

And thank you for the welcome.

[EFerrari]

54. Go directly to General Discussion!

I'm right behind you.

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

57. .

[Englander]

59. This line from the piece says it all.

'Clinton is not slated to visit the Palestinian areas during her visit.'

[Violet_Crumble]

64. That's the bit that summed it all up for me...

Let's hope the Democrats can field something a bit better than this idiot in 2008....

[bowens43]

60. Another reason this vile person

should not be considered for the ticket in 2008.

Pandering to the neo-cons just like she did to the war supporters and anti-choicers.

[Coastie for Truth]

67. I support Hillary.

The fence is the "least bad" alternative to a "bad situation."

A real two state solution with two viable states living together - side by side - with peace and prosperity would be much preferable.

[occuserpens]

68. WB fence works

Now we see that WB Fence is a pretty sophisticated construction. All rightist dem HRC needs to do is to support it - and she is all set as far as neocons are concerned. They don't really need anything else from her - for now.

On the contrary, with Ahamdinejad's remarks in mind, Muslims all over the world, both Shiites and Sunnis, hate the Fence. As a result, silly Hillary is caught in the "clash of civilizations", and nothing in the world can help her in this sad predicament.
Same will happen to everybody who repeats her mistake.