That Win/Win Issue For Democrats...

[MrBenchley]

From atrios (are liberal sources actually allowed in the gungeon?)

"They said it:

“It makes no sense for assault weapons to be around our society.”
George W. Bush
1999
"The president supports the current law, and he supports reauthorization of the current law."
White House spokesman Scott McClellan
April 2003
Yet here we are, fifteen working days left before the end of the current session of congress and the assault weapon ban due to expire on September 15 with no effort being made to preserve this popular and reasonable restraint on gun violence.
Now, am I naive enough to believe that Bush would buck the NRA during an election year and support the extension of a law supported by 70% of the American public and more than 60% of gun owners?
Nope. So here is a call to action."

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_07_11_atrios_archive.html#108974532655487789

[MrBenchley]

1. From the same site--"Fun With Concealed Weapons"

"-- A Georgia woman was arrested after pointing her concealed handgun at another mother during an argument over their eleven- year-old daughter's basketball game at school;
-- A Michigan man was arrested for threatening to shoot two other men with his concealed handgun during a dispute over clearing trash off his property;
-- A Virginia man was arrested for carrying a concealed handgun into an elementary school, where it was left in an unattended backpack in the classroom until a teacher noticed it;
-- An Alabama man accidentally shot himself and a bystander in a movie theater showing "102 Dalmatians," when the concealed handgun fell out of his pocket;
-- A Pennsylvania man shot and killed a neighbor with a concealed handgun during an argument over where to dump snow that was being shoveled off the property."

[Salmo Trutta]

2. Unfortunately, the AWB is dead in the water...

but we will have 4 years starting on inaguration day in which to new legislation to get this scourge off of our streets...

[MrBenchley]

4. And meanwhile it's a dandy example of how extremist

pResident Turd and his GOP thugs really are...

[Salmo Trutta]

6. Yeah, I know...

they are downright scary people...in the way a person in a padded room is scary.

[MrBenchley]

9. If I was handling Kerry's ads

I'd try to make sure EVERY ad had at least one quick glimpse of Cheney's snarling face....

[Salmo Trutta]

10. And a side-by-side comparison

of a couple of chimpanzees...

[MrBenchley]

20. LOL! Meanwhile...

"The surveys examined likely voter attitudes in ten key states, including Arizona, Florida, Michigan, Missouri, Ohio, New Mexico, Pennsylvania, South Dakota, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. Among the key findings:

-- Majorities of gun owners in all but two states favor renewing the ban. Even in those states (MO and OH), only slightly less than 50 percent of gun owners and NRA supporters favor renewing the ban.

-- In nine of ten states surveyed, union households support renewing the ban by at least 60 percent; similarly, more than 60 percent of NASCAR fans support renewing the ban in four out of the five states in which this demographic question was asked.

-- Voters in Midwestern states support renewing the assault weapons ban only slightly more than in Southwestern states. Midwestern states (OH, WI, MI, and MO) averaged 72 percent support for renewing the ban. Southwestern states (AZ and NM) averaged 67 percent support.

-- Voters in rural states, traditionally seen as very conservative on "gun control," strongly favor renewing the ban. 68 percent of both South Dakota and West Virginia voters support renewing the ban."

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=163-07132004

[FeebMaster]

7. Maybe next time you can get a ban that actually bans

some guns. Of course, since that would involve reading the federal laws that are already on the books and actually knowing something about guns (we're talking ten minutes worth of knowledge here not a lifetime of experience or anything) I just don't think it will happen. I haven't met a gun control supporter yet who was willing to take the time or effort to figure out how to get the gun control they want. It must be hard, wanting more gun control and always having to rely on the Republicans to pass the laws you want. It's almost sad.

[MrBenchley]

8. Jinkies, feeb....

"I haven't met a gun control supporter yet who was willing to take the time or effort to figure out how to get the gun control they want."
This from the guy who claims he didn't read the "liberals with guns" website......

[FeebMaster]

11. What does that have to do with anything?

Like I said in the other thread, I don't care about the liberals with guns website. I do know how the gun grabbers can get all the gun control they want up to and including a complete ban on civilian gun ownership, though. The gun grabbers can't even seem to figure out that the AWB has nothing to do with machine guns.

[iverglas]

40. really?

"I haven't met a gun control supporter yet who was willing to take the time or effort to figure out how to get the gun control they want."

Allow me to introduce myself.

The kind of firearms control I want is pretty much exactly the kind of firearms control I've got. With a little better enforcement of the safe storage laws on the books.

I've even explained it all at considerable length and in considerable detail in the past, right here.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=15464

As I recall, there was very little interest in what I had to say.

How much more fun to pretend that such things were never said, eh?

[FeebMaster]

41. Thanks for sharing.

Now show me a USAmerican gun control supporter here who has even read the National Firearms Act let alone the Assault Weapons Ban.

A new AWB thread just started up in GD. How long do you think it will be before someone starts whining about machine guns?

[library_max]

45. And what do you think the chances are that the whiner

will be an RKBAer insisting that the AWB has nothing to do with machine guns, when nobody said it did? I'd guess a percentage in the high nineties.

[FeebMaster]

47. Wow that's funny

I just made a post in another thread explaining things to someone who thought the AWB covered machine guns. I guess I must have imagined the whole thing.

[library_max]

49. Yes, probably you did just imagine the whole thing.

I've seen in you two other threads just now, explaining how the AWB has nothing to do with machine guns to people who never said it did!.

If I'm wrong, please identify the thread.

[FeebMaster]

50. Been there. Done that.

[JayS]

17. Yup, I am sure he will try and pass all sorts of things, to the...

...delight of both the NRA and the Brady Bunch, and it will be a repeat of Clinton's first term with all the extreme polarization that goes with it. We will once again be in the position where we will have to pander to the right-wing just to get anything at all passed. I just hope Kerry is not into show raids; we don't need more people killed and posse comitatas weakened further.

[library_max]

19. Posse what's-that-now? /nt

[JayS]

22. There is a simple name for it...but I forgot what it is. :)

From: http://www.notbored.org/spy-planes.html

News reports indicate that the Department of Defense's kindly offer was reluctantly refused. There had been too much criticism of the offer, which clearly violated the spirit, if not the actual letter, of the 1878 Posse Comitatus Act (there must be a strict separation between the military and domestic law enforcement agencies, that is, if democracy is to survive).

[MrBenchley]

26. Wow! There's a site to bank on...

"NOT BORED! is an anarchist, situationist-inspired, low-budget, irregularly published, photocopied journal.

[JayS]

42. That is why I chose that site. :)

:)

[MrBenchley]

46. Not to mention

that you'd be hard pressed to find a site by sane people that spouted that rubbish...

[JayS]

52. The statement about the purpose of Posse Comitatas was...

...all that was needed.

[TX-RAT]

3. I wonder how many people that were issued CCWs

Have had them revoked. Locally we've had 14 lose their CCWs for various reason, according to the PD. Have not spoken to the DPS or the SO.

[MrBenchley]

5. There's a reason why the latest gun lobby tactic

is to try to hide CCW info from the public...

[FatSlob]

13. So that they aren't harrassed by anti-gun nuts and wackos?

Hmmmmmmmm?

[Dolomite]

12. Whew! Found what they've been trying to hide!

Stats! Why those rascalian Texans! Trying to hide info from me will you? HA - I say! HA!

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

Look at those conviction rates for CHL holders!

IT'S INSANE!

[FatSlob]

14. Hmmmm, looks like they are overwhelmingly law-abiding.

[TX-RAT]

15. Not quite the stats i was talking about.

Most of the one's here were for failure to properly identify, failure to conceal properly.
Loss of privileges is all you suffer.

[Dolomite]

16. Cool - no prob: That would fall under "Suspension" or "Revoked"

Easily clicked from the same web site:

As of May 7th, 2004 – there are 240,816 currently active concealed handgun licenses in Texas.

Since Jan. 1 of 1996 (and up to 5/7/04) – a total of 4186 have been either suspended for one reason or another or, outright revoked.

(That’s a whole 1.7%)

Some States (like MN) require a report to be provided by the AG detailing reasons for suspensions and revocations - TX apparently does not.

Of course, there's the now infamous VPC “report”; but I feel sorry for people that are unable to see the number skewing in that old VPC article – Jesus – it’s like an excursion with the sophomore debating team.

ETA: The suspension and revoked status data is sortable by ZIP code (as well as age/sex/race) on another DPS page if that helps.

[library_max]

18. CCW permit holders make up slightly less than 1% of the population.

So let's look at those numbers again, all the while pretending that nobody except a US citizen ever got convicted of a crime in Texas.

It looks as if the per capita conviction rates for murder, assault, and sexual assault are somewhat lower than non-permit-holders (if it were the same per capita, it'd be about .95% of the total). Kidnapping, robbery, and burglar are zero or near-zero for permit holders. Of course, you have to cough up, what, $9000 for the permit, so crimes that involve getting money are likely to be less common. Indecency with a child, more than DOUBLE the rate per capita for permit holders! What's up with that? Deadly conduct discharge of firearm, about the same per capita as non-permit-holders. Harrassment, also about double the rate per capita for permit holders. Makes you wonder about why some of them got the permit.

Now remember, these are conviction rates, not arrest rates or perpetration rates. Permit applicants have to pony up about nine grand, so they're going to be a socioeconomic cut above the average non-permit-holder. Anybody think socioeconomic class doesn't have any bearing on conviction rates in Texas? Also, you have to have a clean criminal record and other documentation that makes you better than the average bear, at least on paper.

So the best you can say is that CCW permit holders in Texas don't seem to commit crimes for money. With a few exceptions, they seem to commit other crimes at about the same rate or slightly less than the rest of the population, most of whom don't have their socioeconomic advantages or (previously) clean legal bill of health. Impressive.

[slackmaster]

21. Per-capita conviction rates are about HALF that of the general population

Of course, you have to cough up, what, $9000 for the permit, so crimes that involve getting money are likely to be less common.

That's completely erroneous. The standard fee is $140. Seniors and indigent people can get one for $70. See http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf#page=55

BTW - Are you seriously saying that someone who has $9K of disposable money is less likely to be a criminal than someone who does not? That doesn't sound like a very progressive attitude to me.

[library_max]

31. Seventy and seventy-five percent are by you "about half"?

You're right about the fee. I read it wrong. It is $140, $70 for seniors and the indigent. I still think that successful applicants are going to be a cut above the robbery/burglary/kidnapping social class.

[slackmaster]

38. Look at the totals at the bottom of the columns

180 offenses by CHL holders compared to 35,070 by the general public. .51064% of offenses committed by roughly 1% of the population.

Move the decimal point over two places, you get a per-capita conviction rate for CHL holders about 51% of the general population.

[library_max]

43. But those totals include robbery, burglary, kidnapping,

and several other crimes unlikely to be perpetrated by anyone with a driver's license, much less a concealed weapon permit. It makes more sense to look at the individual crimes. And again, these are convictions, not arrests and not numbers of crimes committed.

[slackmaster]

44. Those are violent crimes that have victims

Again, a person getting arrested is less definitive proof that a crime has been committed than is a conviction.

I really don't give a hoot about arrest stats. I was once arrested, charged with multiple crimes including felonies, and had the charges all dropped without having to go to trial.

On edit: I was the victim of identity theft in the pre-e-commerce era. The person who stole my identity used it to get credit cards which he used to buy a bunch of stuff with no intention of paying for it. I don't know whether or not that included a $1,500 leather bustier.

I don't see any value in continuing this line of discussion. You're not going to convince me that shall-issue laws are bad, and I'm not going to convince you that shall-issue laws are no worse than neutral.

[JayS]

23. The Texas CHL is cheap. n/t

n/t

[slackmaster]

24. The whole idea that rich people don't steal money offends me

One word:

Enron.

[library_max]

27. Good one. Let me know when any Enron executive gets convicted

of robbery, burglary, or kidnapping. Because those are the crimes we were talking about.

[slackmaster]

29. Nice goalpost move

You're still wrong about the fee being $9,000.

:smoke:

[library_max]

33. Might have read #28 afore you wrote #29.

And you're the one who brought up Enron, not me.

[slackmaster]

35. It doesn't matter

You're spinning wildly to try to show that concealed weapons permits have made Texas more dangerous to live in, and it just isn't so.

[library_max]

37. Wow.

1) I never said that concealed weapons permits have made Texas more dangerous to live in. I never even implied it.

2) Pointing out that I've already admitted the error you're going on about somehow means that I'm "wildly spinning."

3) Responding to your bringing up the subject of Enron means I'm "moving the goal posts."

I repeat, wow. If I had your side of this argument, I think I'd keep any accusations of intellectual dishonesty to myself.

[slackmaster]

39. I never suggested you were being dishonest, max

Just mistaken.

[library_max]

28. Yes, I read it wrong, sorry. It's only $140.

I still think that those who successfully apply for and receive a permit are going to be somewhat above the burglary/robbery/kidnapping social class. There weren't any stats for, say, embezzlement on the chart. Still, how come the rates for indecency with a child and harrassment were double? Any thoughts on that?

[slackmaster]

30. I'll comment on the indecency with a child figure

19 incidents for a whole year out of over 200,000 people is too small of a number to draw any kind of conclusion. Let's see what it comes out to next year and the year after, then if there's a trend we can worry about it then. Or let the people who actually live in Texas worry about it.

[library_max]

32. I do live in Texas. /nt

[slackmaster]

34. I'm so sorry for you

The weather must be miserable right now.

Keep a close watch on your kids. You wouldn't want a crazed CHL holder doing any preversions on them.

:eyes:

[library_max]

36. Hey, the weather here isn't half-bad right now.

Of course, the part of the state I live in, we jump for joy when it even acts like it might rain, especially in the summer. It's a good ten degrees cooler than it was last Tuesday.

[JayS]

53. It is a chilly 95 right now. Bring back the rain! n/t

n/t

[MrBenchley]

25. Remember, the whole rationale for this idiotic law

wasn't that the neurotics running around with popguns in their pants would be only slightly less dishonest and dangerous than the average schmo, but that it would CUT crime...which turned out to be actual fraud perpetrated by Mary Rosh.

[minavasht]

48. 28.2% of the population there is children under 18

So we are left with roughly 16.5 million adults. Ergo the CCW holders make 1.45% of the crime-committing population.
Now the numbers look a little different, don't they?

P.S. You are right about the child indecency.


http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48000.html

[RoeBear]

51. Obviously you're trying to infer....

...that these acts were committed by concealed weapon permit holders.