Court distorts 2nd Amendment

[jpak]

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_17407978?source=most_viewed

A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

The above paragraph is the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. The Supreme Court recently ruled that Washington D.C.'s gun control law violates the amendment, which means that all such laws are on thin ice.

You don't need to be a lawyer to decide that the amendment's apparent purpose was to support the formation of state sponsored citizen militias, for which the militiamen needed to bring their own weapons. There is no indication that its authors were thinking one way or the other about the right to bear arms in general, separate from the need for armed militias.

State militias have evolved into National Guard units supplemented by local law enforcement agencies, and weapons are provided and owned by the government. The Second Amendment is an artifact that lost its original relevance long ago. Anti-gun control advocates deliberately delete the amendment's crucial first 13 words when referencing it because they know what the amendment does and doesn't say if un-amputated.

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[shraby]

3. I beg to differ. Not that I'm against some control of firearms, but

in school we were taught that a comma takes the place of the word "and" when making a list of things. This would make it actually read:
A well-regulated militia and being necessary to the security of a free state and the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
My family has always had firearms for hunting and my father's family and his father's family. There does need to be some regulations imposed though because the types of weapons on the market now weren't even envisioned when the constitution was written. There is a lot of difference between the blunderbuss of then and the AK-47 of now.

[Name removed]

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[flamin lib]

17. Or with self defense yet Scalia found it. nt

[Name removed]

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[flamin lib]

24. Not adressing the decision, just the citation of seld defense.nt

[derby378]

6. If I may...

Lewis and Clark, during our nation's infancy, roamed the wilderness with a semi-automatic rifle complete with a 20-round magazine. Technically, this was an air rifle in that it used compressed air to fire the rounds (which required one hell of a bellows in order to recharge the air reservoir), but all of the basic mechanics of the modern-day rifle were still there.

So yes, the Founding Fathers not only knew that the types of weapons on the market now were just reaching the hands of civilians, they approved of it.

[Name removed]

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[jpak]

9. I don't recall L&C buffalo hunting with that air rifle

Although they did demonstrate it for some natives along the way.

It was brought along to allow them to procure game if their powder ran out.

weak

yup

[Name removed]

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[jpak]

12. How many air rifles did the government purchase for L&C?

and they did not equip the army or the "militia" with them.

why?

Because they were ineffectual

and weak

yup

[Name removed]

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[jpak]

18. No the poster is distorting history - the Bill of Rights were written years before that air rifle

invented - and the FF didn't know anything about it at the time.

The L&C expedition was in the 19th century - not the 18th - and there was no connection between the Bill of Rights and how that expedition was outfitted.

another myth busted

yup

[Name removed]

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[guitar man]

25. At the time of the writing

Of the BOR, the Cookson repeating flintlock rifle had been around for about 40 years and wheel lock revolvers date all the way back to 1590. The FF were well aware of ever advancing technology and made no mention of restricting any firearms types from ownership or use by individual citizens

[Name removed]

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[X_Digger]

34. Perhaps you need to pick up a history text as well..

1779 - Girandoni Air Rifle created -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

1780 - 1815 - The Girandoni was used by the Austrian Army

1787 - US Constitutional Convention -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Convention_%28United_States%29

1791 - Second Amendment (and the rest of the Bill of Rights) adopted -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

1804 - Lewis and Clark's first expedition -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_clark



At least get your dates straight.

[YllwFvr]

55. the rifle was made

in 1779
constitution was ratified in 1788

[guitar man]

29. The Giandorno air rifle

Was a repeating arm that fired a .51 cal projectile at a muzzle velocity close to that of the modern .45 acp round. That big of a ball travelling at that kind of velocity would create a muzzle energy approaching that of the .44 magnum. I'd hardly call that weak..,

[derby378]

46. Proves my point, though

The Founding Fathers knew about the semi-automatic gun with a 20-round magazine and had no problem with it being in civilian hands.

[YllwFvr]

54. its energy was equivalent

to the 45 acp. Perhaps not enough for buffalo but it would probably put down a deer

[shraby]

10. It was my understanding that automatic rifles make their

appearance during the Civil War when Lincoln ordered a bunch.

[Name removed]

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[guitar man]

36. Actually, lever action repeating metallic cartridge rifles

The 15 round 1860 Henry rifle was referred to by Confederate troops as " that damn Yankee rifle you can load on Sunday and shoot all week" :spray:

[Historic NY]

22. Yeah, they have some in the Tower of London, & Ferguson's Rifles....

also not many ever went beyond the military in any number beyond novelty. L&C were looking for shock & awe? If they were so widely accepted why was the Smooth bore the only major weapon for the military through the Civil War.

[Name removed]

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[X_Digger]

35. If you read the L&C Journals, they had much fun wowing the natives..

Ooh, pocket telescope. Oooh, compass. Oooh, magnets. Great White Father is heap big powerful- that kind of crap.

[speltwon]

39. well, any sufficiently advanced technology

is indistinguishable from magick.

[X_Digger]

40. I always liked- "It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value." - ACC n/t

[Euromutt]

43. Per-unit cost, among other considerations

Military procurement types throughout history have tended to favor weapons that were merely "good enough" but inexpensive to one that were brilliant but expensive. Ordnance boards have also historically been curiously resistant to increasing individual soldiers' firepower, lest they expend "too much" ammunition.

And, by the way, during the Civil War the primary infantry weapon was actually the rifled musket; muzzle-loading, but not smoothbore.

[oneshooter]

47. Gee I guess the Springfield M1861 rifled musket, the Springfield 1863 rifled musket.

Pattern 1653 Enfield rifled musket, the Pattern 1858 Enfield rifled musket.
Not to mention the 1860 Sharps 54cal breech loader, the Burnside carbine 52cal breech loader, and the Withworth rifle 45cal and preferred by snipers on both sides.

The US Civil War was the first major conflict fought with rifled arms. The massive casualties were the result of Generals fighting the new war with the tactics of the last.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[YllwFvr]

53. The weapons were far more advanced

than the blunderbuss. But I see what you are getting at

[fittosurvive]

5. The first legislation on the subject was The Militia Act of 1792 which provided, in part:

That each and every free able-bodied white male citizen of the respective States, resident therein, who is or shall be of age of eighteen years, and under the age of forty-five years (except as is herein after excepted) shall severally and respectively be enrolled in the militia.

Do you really think the intent of the 2nd Amendment was to prohibit firearm ownership by those under eighteen and over forty-five?

[Name removed]

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[Bold Lib]

14. What a load of crap.

The intent of the 2A is very clear. If you have trouble understanding the simple meaning then read the Federalist Papers.

[Name removed]

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[flamin lib]

21. Particularly Hamilton:

"If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security."

[Bold Lib]

26. I'm partial to Thomas Jefferson myself. You know that crazy old guy that wrote the Declaration of

Independence.

"The Constitution of most of the states (and of the United States) asserts that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."

[rl6214]

28. Just another day of spam

YUP

YUP

YUP

[Bold Lib]

Don't you mean

yeep


yeep


yeep

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Maine_Nurse]

31. Glad my state's constitution is bluntly clear about it in Article 1, Section 16.

"Every citizen has a right to keep and bear arms and this right shall never be questioned."

Stay the hell outta my state and it's business.

[Maine_Nurse]

32. Nope, National Guard is not a state militia. Many states have both.

NG can be federalized while state militias can not be. Over 20 states have formal state militia as allowed under federal law. You just don't care about facts in anything do you?

Nope.

[armueller2001]

33. Your ignorance is astounding.

1) "Well regulated" in the founders' time did not mean restricted or controlled, it meant well functioning. I keep my firearms and skills in functional condition therefore they are well regulated.

2) You are correct, the National Guard is a militia. They are the ORGANIZED militia. The unorganized militia also exists and is defined in federal code as able bodied males between 17 and 45.

Putting points 1) and 2) together, I am a member of the well regulated militia.

But, regardless of if you choose to accept these facts, it doesn't really matter. We won, the Second Amendment has been established as an individual right. :)

[ManiacJoe]

37. Just another ignorantly written LTTE.

:shrug:

[speltwon]

38. wrong. Look to Rhode Island

their 1842 constitution for another example of this type of phrasing...

"The liberty of the press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, any person may publish his sentiments on any subject,"

Is the purpose of this amendment to "support the formation of the press" or to use the press as an example of why ANY PERSON (which is what "the people" means in every other such document including the constitution) should have this recognized right? It's an exact grammatical example.

[Possumpoint]

41. Wrong

As the the OP points out the courts take a position 180 degrees different. You are arguing a lost point.

[aikoaiko]

42. That argument about the 2nd failed a while ago, but I'm happy to see folks still clinging to it.

[Name removed]

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[beevul]

45. Dear 1994, the present is calling.

Another "piece" from a bunch that has neither read the preamble to the bill of rights, nor understands the purpose function or intent of the bill of rights, as made crystal clear by the preamble.

Much sound and fury signifying...ignorance.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Loooooooooooooooooooooooooool

Look at the willful ignorance the author of that blog displays. It's GLORIOUS.

[GreenStormCloud]

49. You can give up beating that dead horse.

It won't get up and trot for you.

Nup

[Euromutt]

50. It's the tired argument that "the people" in the 2nd aren't the same as in the 1st, 4th, 9th & 10th

As I have noted before on this forum, my interpretation of the prefatory clause is that it explains why it is actively in the government's interest not to infringe upon the right of the people--the same people who have the right to assemble peaceably in the 1st, and be free from unreasonable searches and seizures in the 4th, and retain right not enumerated in the 9th, and have powers reserved to them distinct from the states in the 10th--to keep and bear arms. To wit, that in the event the state or federal government needs to call forth the militia, it helps if its recruiting pool consists of individuals who are already familiar with at least the basics of weapons handling and marksmanship.

Interestingly, as far I can tell, nobody on this forum has ever made a credible effort to challenge my interpretation. One person claimed it was a "straw man," thereby revealing (s)he didn't know what a "straw man" is, but nobody's ever come up with a reasoned argument why my interpretation is wrong. Isn't that interesting?

[Ter]

51. You're right

What the 2A really means is we have a right to form our own para-military militias.

[Callisto32]

52. If you pretend hard enough......