Tucson... was the point when the country

[nadinbrzezinski]

realized we cannot continue listening to the NRA...

I now firmly believe it. Whichever party takes on the NRA will do well.

I know this will not be popular, but you are seeing two republicans testing the waters... dc better pay attention... oh never mind.

[Electric Monk]

1. Two republicans testing the waters

I can't read your mind, nor can the gunners here. Please elaborate.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Meghan McCain has been going on how

extended magazines are not a good idea. And Mr. I am amazed I agree with him, Chenney also went there.

For Chenney it is more of a break as he was one of the two that voted for pretty radical legislation back in the day.

[Electric Monk]

3. Thanks. Anyone with more than two brain cells to knock together knows there's no good reason for 30

round clips, other than killing a bunch of people at once.

Bring it, gungeoneers. Argue that.

[X_Digger]

5. If McCarthy were proposing a 30 round magazine limit, your point might be valid..

However, she's proposing a 10 round magazine limit.

Why do cops carry guns with standard magazines with more than 10 rounds?

Are they trying to 'kill a bunch of people at once'?

[Electric Monk]

6. So you're using the "just in case" defense?

Really?

[X_Digger]

10. Nobody ever died from having too many rounds unfired.

Cops have a hit rate on the order of 30%, and it may take more than one round to take down an attacker.

Are you going to be there to hand me a spare magazine, if I'm facing a third assailant in a violent home invasion?

[ClassWarrior]

28. Nobody? What about these people? (graphic)

Do you consider them nobody?








NGU.

[Name removed]

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[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Well played, Sir, well played.

:hi:

[Name removed]

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[one-eyed fat man]

79. Manchester, like in England?

Where you have to belong to the IRA to own a gun?

[Callisto32]

82. Uh, well played?

Nobody ever died by having too many rounds UNFIRED.....

Jeeze, try reading next time.

[X_Digger]

65. RIF - reading is fundamental..

"Nobody ever died from having too many rounds unfired."

Perhaps if you read what I wrote rather than jerking that knee, you might make sense.

[PavePusher]

78. How many were shot by someone using extended-capacity mags? n/t

[Name removed]

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[Tunkamerica]

61. probably just kill one dude a bunch of times real quick.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Electric Monk]

22. Welcome back.

I like to keep the rooms in my house set to room temperature.

[Statistical]

66. Why do you feel the need to lie and pretend the goal is to ban 30 round magazines?

You know the goal is to ban 11 round magazines. The ones used by law enforcement every single day (except special rules for cops).
Cho killed 32 people with 10 round magazines so when that happens again what is the "solution" ban all 6+ round magazines.
When someone kills a dozen people with 6 round magazines what is the goal then? Make everything other than single shot weapons illegal.

The Democrats who go against right to keep and bear arms will be defeated. This is going to be 1996 all over again. People in the party warned Clinton exactly what would happen but he didn't listen. End result: Republican control of Congress for a decade.

[kctim]

71. What size clip is there a "good reason" for?

[spin]

89. I thought we were talking about magazines ...

"clip" is a term used by people who have little firearm knowledge and the news media which can't tell the difference between semi-auto firearms and full auto firearms.

[kctim]

92. I don't care what they want to call it right now

"there's no good reason for 30
round clips"


I'm just curious about what number it would take to sate their fear.

[spin]

95. Many shooters like 30 round magazines because ...

they can spend more time on the shooting line at the range actually shooting not reloading. To these shooters this is a good reason.

The indoor range I used to shoot at seemed to have two temperature extremes: 90 to 115 degrees in the summer and 20 to 60 degrees in the winter. You were either sweating or freezing when you were on the line. Many shooters would load a bunch of magazines in the lobby, go on the range and shoot then return to the lobby to reload in the air conditioned comfort.

To be fair, I have never owned a hi-cap or extended magazine. Swapping magazines is part of shooting and I practice it so I can do it quickly in an emergency. But that's me. I also have small hands and most hi-cap magazines are very thick as they are double stacked. The thickness of the grip of a firearm with a double stack magazine makes me cant the firearm slightly for my finger to reach the trigger. This tends to cause my accuracy to deteriorate.

If there is a push to ban the 15 to 17 round magazines that are standard for many pistols or the 30 round extended magazines, I predict gun owners will rush out to buy every one of these magazines they can purchase. Many will also decide to buy a new pistol fearing that they might be banned. It's difficult to imagine that a law could be passed that would require all hi-cap or extended magazines to be turned in and even if it was, many firearm owners would simply refuse to comply. The backlash of such a law would be disastrous for the Democratic Party. Obama could kiss 2012 away and the Tea Baggers would be salivating at their future gains in Congress.


Look at this chart and guess when the first Assault Weapons Ban passed.

US FIREARM PRODUCTION, 1989-2008 below:

http://agmetalminer.com/2011/01/27/shooting-tragedies-as-greatest-demand-drivers-for-gun-industry-part-one/

If you said 1994 you should see my point.

The Federal Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) (or Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act) was a subtitle of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, a federal law in the United States that included a prohibition on the manufacture for civilian use of certain semi-automatic firearms, so called "assault weapons." There was no legal definition of "assault weapons" in the U.S. prior to the law's enactment. The 10-year ban was passed by Congress on Sept. 13, 1994, and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton the same day. The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban

[shadowrider]

75. Your input requested on this thread. 500 hacked to death with machetes

Which is worse, in your opinion, mass shootings or innocent women, children and men being hacked apart while still alive?

Just curious.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=367990&mesg_id=367990

[PavePusher]

77. Mine work quite well at the range, thank you.

And the one I keep loaded for home-defense back-up in the pistol safe seems to do alright as well.

And somehow, I've avoided "killing a bunch of people at once".

But hey, thanks for accusing me of intending to do criminal violence. Your self-fornication is vastly entertaining.

[Callisto32]

81. Tell that to 3 gun shooters....

[X_Digger]

4. Cheney is a FUDD, (among other things)..

He's a 'duck and deer' gun owner. Only 20% of gun owners hunt.

[Mike 03]

8. I wish I had your faith in the people here in AZ.

I don't see consolidation here, but rather massive confusion and even resentful backlash against the shooting. The Repukes are on the defensive. And we are even considering legislation that would allow college students to carry heat on campus.

I wish I could agree with you, but... questions remain.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. At the national level... we are seeing this at the national level

and two, one the former veep, and one the daughter of one of your two senators... ARE testing the waters. This is a classic to see if a new consensus is emerging. Ok I am talking of meta-politics here, not local. And at the meta level... we are seeing some very interesting statements.

As to the Rs on the defensive in Arizona... from local papers... they are splitting too. That is also official now at the meta level too.

[Mike 03]

12. I am praying you are right. Nothing would make me happier.

If dear Congresswoman Giffords survives, she will be a national hero, the most inspiring figure in American politics in decades.

Honestly, this shooting was a nightmare, and I pray to god something good comes of it. It was just horrible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. She is going to survive, and actually she is going to do

fairly well. Her status is now good... she is at therapy... she is in for a hell of a couple of months. She has amazed everybody who is even distantly familiar with these kinds of injuries. To paraphrase her doctors, she has no right to be doing this well.

In fact, at this stage, given her recovery... i will not be too shocked if she is back to work (if limited) in six months, and she actually delivers a speech at the convention... This is part of the nightmare for the radical right.

[Mike 03]

Thank you. You always manage to cheer me up.

I am so glad you are here at DU. You are one of the people who keep me going, and believing. Thank you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I just share my knowledge Mike

[Atypical Liberal]

86. It's going to be interesting...

It's going to see what Gifford's response to the shooting will be. What if she says, like the father of Christina, that we live in a free country and this sort of thing is just the price we pay for it?

[Uzybone]

11. I think you are wrong

After the complete inaction following Virginia Tech, I became convinced that this country would not do anything substantial about guns for a long time.

I do hope you are right though.

[nadinbrzezinski]

17. At the meta level we are seeing some interesting happenings

why I am hoping we have seen one too many. That does not mean we will not have at leaset one more before they finally get it. But the movement has started.

US Politics is weird, especially when anybody finally walks away from a radical group, which the NRA qualifies.

[Name removed]

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[Mike 03]

13. I do hope you are right.

This event was so horrible, so painful, it is hard to imagine good can come from it, but you are right that we must not give up hope that good might come from this.

[Bruno2]

14. Well the NRA is the NRA

They just do as their members ask them to. The members would be US citizens with the right to vote. I am pretty sure the police don't carry high capacity magazines to "kill as many people as they can quickly with out reloading". I think this is like saying people drive heavier cars "so they can get maximum penetration into crowds of people". Having higher capacity has many benefits. Not having to spend most of your time loading magazines at the range which translates into more fun less work. Having superior firepower in a self defense situation is like the matercard commercials say "priceless". Evil people do evil things don't vilianize the tool villianize the user.

I do have to agree with the Tucson incident opening peoples eyes. There should have been more armed citizens in the crowd to stop this lunatic before he hurt and killed so many.

[Electric Monk]

16. Priceless. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. aren't they lovely?

I told you so...

At least it is not one of these

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/74139/74139,1168732974,1/stock-photo-large-backhoe-in-a-long-line-of-heavy-equipment-2480768.jpg

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[Electric Monk]

25. I'm waiting for Bruno3.

[Name removed]

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[Kolesar]

96. :snort:

:spray:

[handmade34]

34. I feel quite fortunate...

that I don't live in your world...

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

39. "Criminals usually don't obey the laws." Ya think?? Isn't that why they're called...

...criminals? :eyes:

I've never understood the harebrained concept that we shouldn't have laws because criminals don't obey them anyway.

NGU.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

44. Ahhh. Up is down. Black is white. Crime prevention is crime assistance.

When's our two-minute hate?

NGU.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

45. And if they're laws that give them the advantage, then why would they break them?

:crazy:

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

46. Having trouble keeping your logical contortions straight?

NGU.

[Name removed]

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[ClassWarrior]

54. Ahhh, you're keeping your logical contortions straight just fine?

I'd say "like fish in a barrel," but that'd be wrong.

NGU.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[hack89]

74. We shouldn't have useless and ineffective laws.

Which is what banning 11 round magazines is,

[Tunkamerica]

63. you're right, of course. Higher capacity does bring benefits. The function of society is to

determine whether those benefits outweigh the costs.

Villianization of the gun has not occurred. Rational discussion on the limits to destructive power have. There is a difference and only a young, or intentionally dumb, one would disagree.

[beevul]

99. Rational discussion...

Rational discussion, does not include dishonesty.


The argument being made is that "extended capacity mags" need to be banned.

The limit being proposed is ten rounds. Doing such a thing does not simply ban "extended capacity" mags, it bans standard capacity as well.

Thats called bait and switch. Dishonesty.

If you support such a thing, you, by definition, do not support "rational" discussion.

[ClassWarrior]

27. To the greatest page, where this thread belongs. Thanks for keeping this top of mind, nad.

NGU.

[chill_wind]

29. Sadly, neither party is at all likely to take on the NRA.

DC does pay attention-- to the most powerful lobby of all.

Four of just the top ten recipients are Dems.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000082

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I know, why I suspect these two are testing the waters

[Name removed]

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[Union Scribe]

37. I doubt it. Americans ultimately don't mind violence.

We act shocked. We rabble rabble for a few weeks if the event is on TV enough. But there are no "it's different now" moments, because it's all hot air. Very little rouses Americans to actual action anymore. I can't tell you how many "turning points" I believed in until they all, every last fucking one of them, fizzled out; how many times I thought "surely we'll not stomach THIS as a nation!" only to realize that, oh yes, we will. Over and over.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. This one does feel differently

and since it was one in congress who got shot, that is why it feels different.

[safeinOhio]

40. What direction will this activist court take

when one of them becomes the victim? They've already decided the 2nd only means "in the home". Go ahead and push em farther and see where you get.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. This court worries me more regarding corporate

personhood. That will make all this pretty much academic.

[Name removed]

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[blueamy66]

68. I won't forget and won't let it "fizzle" out.

This is my state and believe me, the people here are more than shocked.

[Mojeoux]

48. Kickin' and Reckin'

[LAGC]

50. Any politician that takes on the NRA is going to be shown the door real quick.

That goes for Republicans too. These teabaggers who got elected on a pro-gun platform, watch how fast they are cast aside if they compromise their supposed values and vote for more gun control. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them did end up compromising, if Obama threw them a bone like some economic concessions in exchange a vote to ban, say, high-capacity magazines.

I like to think that Democrats learned their lesson from their huge losses in 1994. Gun control is a LOSING issue. A few rare high-profile tragedies involving guns won't change this fact. The right to keep and bear arms is part of our Constitution. To most Americans, that still means something. We aren't willing to cast all that aside just because of a few rare outbursts. If they didn't have guns, they'd use knives or bombs. Don't tell me people can't do lots of damage with either weapon. The weapon of choice is irrelevant. Focus on the motive, not the tool.

[Name removed]

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[StarsInHerHair]

53. k and r up to 6 I'd ban armor piercing rounds and destroy all plans & designs

of that rifle that can shoot down an airliner.....I remember too well a couple of pilots saying they had a laser pointer hit them in the face, I don't need 1 asshole shooting down a jetliner. So I'd melt down the molds, destroy the designs, and watch like a hawk for foreign makers of a similar rifle.

[Name removed]

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[StarsInHerHair]

57. dumbass

nt http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo-2-1-1-4-1.aspx if they can get it, like from there, they'll simply have "strawmen" buy it for them. http://www.google.com/products/seller?zmi=amazon.com&q=armor+piercing+ammo&hl=en&ei=nSpBTegMiYqOBPiLmLIP&sa=X&ved=0CBQQlQgwADgA don't know how much is bullshitting here ,but some reviews http://www.ammunitionstore.com/products/50-BMG-Ammo-M2-AP-Lake-City-Match-Chamber-Minutemen-USA-150-Rounds-Bulk.html

[Name removed]

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[StarsInHerHair]

59. can't even use spell check to spell ridiculous?

says even more, enjoy my links!

[Straw Man]

90. Sigh...

http://www.ssarmory.com/6.8_spc_ammo-2-1-1-4-1.aspx if they can get it, like from there, they'll simply have "strawmen" buy it for them.

Notice that it's "law enforcement only." It's already banned. If corrupt cops are going to be making straw purchases, maybe we should ban it for LEO as well. What do you say? Bad apples spoils the basket, etc.

http://www.google.com/products/seller?zmi=amazon.com&q=armor+piercing+ammo&hl=en&ei=nSpBTegMiYqOBPiLmLIP&sa=X&ved=0CBQQlQgwADgA... don't know how much is bullshitting here ,but some reviews

I'm not sure what you're attempting to show here, but despite your search terms, your results are reviews of Amazon's customer service.

don't know how much is bullshitting here ,but some reviews http://www.ammunitionstore.com/products/50-BMG-Ammo-M2-...

That's .50 BMG ammo, but it isn't "armor piercing" except in the sense that any high-powered rifle round will pierce a LEO vest, which is designed to deflect handgun rounds.

[Statistical]

67. AP ammo has been banned for decades.

There are no rifles deisgned to shoot down airliners. Anything (even birds) could potentially bring down an airliner but you could also win the lottery and get hit by an asteroid on the same day too.

If you are unaware of facts can you really participate in debates.

[jeepnstein]

76. Do you have any clue about this subject?

Shooting down an airliner? Really now. Is that a concern for you? Well rest your weary head because you aren't going to do it with a .50 BMG rifle. I seriously doubt you'd be able to do it with a Ma Deuce.

People who want legislation passed should really take the time and trouble to understand the issue they support.

[one-eyed fat man]

84. Spoken like an English major!

This is a milling machine. It is used by those people who like to work with their hands. Those guys you made fun of who took shop but who keep your car running and your house from swimming in shit.

There are people who in their basement workshops build things like fully functional steam engines engines as a hobby. If you look at the picture you might recognize what might be found inside a piece of 7075-T6 aluminum after you make some chips.

So, how do you propose to ban knowledge?

[steve2470]

60. To me, Columbine in 1999 was worse. I was sure then.

Sorry but I have to disagree, nadin. I think this will fade away also.

[cali]

62. any evidence for that claim? Oh, of course not. just a pronouncement from on high.

[Name removed]

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[spanone]

69. the only reason loughner stopped firing was because he had to reload

if he had to reload after 10 shots, fewer would have been wounded or killed.

pretty damned simple logic.

[X_Digger]

72. What makes you think the same people would have been in the same spot..

After round number 10 and in a position to tackle him? What makes you think he wouldn't have brought the second gun he bought on Nov 30?

What makes you think he wouldn't have changed tactics to meet the situation?

Assuming that if you just 'change this one thing right *there*' and someone bent on destruction can't adapt is naive and dangerous.

[Statistical]

73. Yup just like at Virginia Tech. Oh wait didn't cho kill 32 people?

Thats right Cho used 2 guns and used one as cover while reloading presenting no oppertunity to attack.

Laughner purchases 2 firearms. Unlike Cho he believed a single firearms with stupidly large mag would be more effective. Turns out (thankfully) he was wrong.

[spin]

91. Some say his pistol jammed ...

and extended magazines are known to cause jamming.

With a little practice, you can change a magazine in two seconds. With a lot of practice, in one second. It's quite simple really.

Watch this video of an individual firing 30 rounds using 10 round magazines. I would class him as average at changing magazines.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CcUmX1eIP0&feature=related

Here's a video with a 30 round extended magazine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6d2CnQa2uo&NR=1

[rl6214]

104. Not true

The Virginia Tech shooter reloaded 17 times and he killed 32. Pretty much shoots your simple logic.

[Euromutt]

107. Ever hear of Patrick Sherrill?

He's a part-time mail carrier who gave use the term "going postal" after he shot up the post office in Edmond, OK in 1986, killing 14 people and wounding another six. The weapons he used were two Colt M1911A1s with 7-round magazines.

See, the problem with your "pretty damned simple logic" is that you forgot to include the premise "all other things being equal." But when you assume that all other things would have been equal, you're making an entirely unwarranted assumption that murderers don't adapt their plans to the means they have at their disposal.

Take the mass killings in the Akihabara district of Tokyo in June 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre) and in the Gangnam-gu ward of Seoul the following October (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonhyeon-dong_massacre). In both cases, the weapons the killer had available was a knife. Evidently, neither thought this would allow them to inflict a sufficient amount of carnage, so they augmented their attack plan: in the Akihabara killer's case, by renting a two-ton truck which he plowed into the crowd of shoppers before jumping out and starting to knife people; and in the Seoul killer's case, by setting fire to the boarding house he was living in.

If Loughner hadn't had 30-round mags available, he might have resorted to using the second handgun he'd already bought, and killed as many or even more people, just like Patrick Sherrill managed to do.

[cbdo2007]

70. I'm not taking on the NRA, they'll shoot me in the head!!!

gun intimidation works! and it happens all around us all of the time.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

93. Not sure why they'd want to...

doesn't seem to be anything there worth aiming for.

[Callisto32]

80. Here, I'll fix it for you.

"Tuscon...was the point when I...."

[DonP]

83. It's a national turning point ... sure it is ...

...and that's why the thread was relegated to the Gungeon from GD or wherever it started, because it's such a major national issue. What's wrong with this picture? If you can't keep it in the larger forums on DU, do you really think it's a ground swell issue? How many more front page stories will the NY Times run on it? Is it still a staple on the evening news?

Don't confuse what you'd like to happen with what is real.

An individual event sparks outrage at one thing or another. This time a handful of people, that have the ability to ignore the facts of other shootings like VT where more were killed with standard magazines, have decided "it's those damn magazines, that's the evil thing!"

But the fact that violent crime is at a 40 year low (those damn liars at the FBI!), including crimes with guns makes it hard to keep outrage alive after 48, soon to be 49 states have concealed carry and all the threats of blood in the streets never seem to happen. Sorry gun control has cried wolf so many times no one listens anymore except the people who have jobs that depend on outrage for their income, like Helmke and Hennigan at Brady.

Start with a 4.5 million plus voting bloc of NRA members, not counting their families and friends that aren't members. Add the individual state rifle and pistol associations with how many more millions of voters. Hell, the last time anyone counted. 51% of DU people that voted on a survey are gun owners.

Match that against the gun control lobby which consists of .... what? The Brady group. With no members and total contributions of $2500 in 2010? If you're running for office which are you going to listen to?

If the Brady group ranks start to swell with paying members and a large group of legislators, beyond Feinstein, McCarthy and Lautenberg, actually take the issue up let us know. Until then, sorry but you're just blowing smoke to make yourself feel good.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Because predictably any adult discussion sees you guys

turn it into something else.

Like the NRA.

Have a good day. I am hiding thread now.

[X_Digger]

87. Like post 16 is an 'adult discussion'?!?

Riiiiight.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

[friendly_iconoclast]

94. Too many inconvenient truths for you, eh?

You're hiding the thread because you got responses you didn't like

[friendly_iconoclast]

97. "I am hiding thread now." Aaand the OP bails on her own thread!

They don't seem do so well when they can't control the conversation, do they?

[DonP]

98. Hmmm, Let's see ...

... you said Tucson was going to be a turning point.

I disagreed and told you why and asked some questions.

You take your ball and go home and on the way out accuse us of being immature.

Yeah, that's an adult discussion, pretty much what we expect when discussions get sent down from GD full of "sturm und drang" and emotionally driven.

Thanks for not disappointing.

[beevul]

101. Adult discussion does not include...

Adult discussion does not include lies, half truths, bait and switch methodology, and outright dishonesty.

Those things all right now emanate from the "reasonable regulation" side of the debate.

[rl6214]

105. Not going the way you want it to

so your're going to bail on your own thread.

[Atypical Liberal]

88. Didn't work out so good in 1994.

Whichever party takes on the NRA will do well.

Don't bet on it. It caused a disaster in 1994.

[beevul]

100. No, it really wasn't.

No, it really wasn't.

But it was a rallying point for the functionally inert anti-gun groups, the tiny minority that support their incrementalist agenda, and the sycophant media that parrots their dishonesty.

Try as you might to characterize it otherwise, thats ALL it is.

[DonP]

102. Elvis has left the building... and gone ...

... to another thread where, amazingly, they keep saying the same thing and getting the same documented responses. Who'd a thunk it?

So ... they have resorted to the tried and true refuge of all people that espouse an "honest and open debate" and put people that disagree with them on ignore. How progressive.

This is obviously proof positive of the building, massive ground swell of support mentioned in the OP, right?

[beevul]

106. It isn't new.

Check this thread out, for a laugh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x266432

[lawodevolution]

103. What are you going to do to destroy the NRA? Use violence?

and many people here are part of the NRA. So you want to take them on? What are you going to do? Do you plan to put NRA members in concentration camps? If they do not all spontaneously start listening to you and drop memberships, what will you do to destroy them with force?