Trucks filled with boxes of gun-sales records

[MichaelHarris]

Interesting reading, "For decades, the National Rifle Association has lobbied successfully to block all attempts at such computerization, arguing against any national registry of firearm ownership." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/25/AR2010102505588.html

"Nationwide, dealers lose track of an enormous number of guns. Since 2005, 3,847 inspections have documented 113,642 guns that cannot be found. (The Bushmaster rifle used in the D.C. sniper killings in 2002 had gone missing from a gun store in Tacoma, Wash.)"

[jaxx]

1. There should be a national registry...

Virginia gun dealers: Small number supply most guns tied to crimes

...At Bob's Gun Shop in Norfolk, a woman accompanied by an 18-year-old with a long rap sheet bought a "Baby 9" for protection in November 2006. Seven weeks later, the teen stole a truck and used the 9mm pistol to execute a man who intervened.

Outside an Ace Hardware in Lynchburg, a teen paid a man $70 to buy a Hi-Point handgun for him in April 2008. Seven days later, the teen's gang stormed a gas mart, shot the clerk in the head and fled with wads of bloody cash.

These three guns tell part of the hidden story of how firearms move from gun dealers to crime scenes across Virginia.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/24/AR2010102402221.html?wpisrc=nl_cuzhead

[Abq_Sarah]

2. Registration isn't acceptable to many

Because politicians can't be trusted to protect rights.

[jaxx]

3. It doesn't look like gun dealers can be trusted to protect the public

either. Stolen guns, lost guns, known dealers who are selling the guns used to kill.

[Katya Mullethov]

6. Nor can they be trusted to read minds

Another government program and a few more laws will clear this up by putting them all on food stamps . And that is exactly the kind of innovative thinking that is driving our national economic recovery .

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. Yes, but gun dealers cannot arrest you if they get grubby

Some of the stories here about law enforcement etc arresting people and taking their guns even though they are law-abiding.

I cannot imagine any other right, tested all the way to the Supreme Court, being subjected to so many arbitrary violations without the good citizenry rioting in the streets.

Imagine having your newspaper of hymnal snatched from your person or home the way some people (usually minorities and women) are being disarmed.

Wouldn't that shock you?

[safeinOhio]

4. That is why there are elections

but repubs don't trust voters.

[PavePusher]

21. And Dems do?

Come on, pull the other one, it's got bells on...

[-..__...]

10. Go to the sporting goods store...

From the files obtain forms 4473. These will contain descriptions of weapons, and lists of private ownership.




B-)

[PVFR]

12. Aww yes

Red Dawn. I well remember that movie. Excellent movie.

[RSillsbee]

15. Wolveriiiines!!

Hey, somebody was going to say it.

[slackmaster]

14. A national registry would not have prevented any of those three incidents

What's your point, jaxx?

[X_Digger]

17. Would registration have had any effect on the items you mention?

Click on 'a crime deterrent' in your linked page. Police and the ATF find no fault with Bob's Guns business practices or regulatory compliance.

As Euromutt rightly points out, firearms are a demand-driven market. In areas with lots of crime, more local gun shops will have more traces of guns used in crime. In areas with fewer gun shops, each store will have a higher percentage. Neither of which indicate maliciousness, carelessness, or negligence on the part of gun stores.

The very fact that the report was able to tie the 18 year old to the woman's purchase means that registration is unnecessary and would have not prevented such an occurrence.

[PavePusher]

20. Right after the national registration of books.

You first....

[SteveM]

23. A "national registry" is unacceptable. Here's why:

An action like this would provide to federal authorities information on all gun-owners, effectively abrogating the rights recognized and protected in the Second Amendment.

Such an action would not have prevented the crimes which you cited. It's like pushing for an "assault weapons ban" after some thug shoots up a restaurant with a .45. In other words your action does not address the problem: preventing the murders with guns that you cite. Even a total prohibition would be as ineffective as the one covering marijuana (I write this between puffs). I think it curious that prohibitionist policies always gravitate toward "national" bans; the one prohibiting drugs has an awkward, cantilevered history, however ineffective and costly.

What might work is to head off hard-line thug behavior as soon as possible. When social policy begins to fail, and the newly-minted thug wants to get "juice," hammer him/her with long sentences; keep them out of society for a considerable amount of time. I think LEOs have improved their record arresting thugs because they follow the repeat-offenders more closely; a thug is usually too arrogant to change his/her methods lest it detract from "hardness."

[benEzra]

5. If people (including you) weren't constantly trying to outlaw more and more Title 1 civilian guns

reduce the number of lawful owners, and otherwise harass responsible ownership, I doubt registration would be quite as controversial as it is. Especially if criminals could be prosecuted for failing to register (which of course they can't, on 5th Amendment grounds).

Since we don't live in that world, registration is a non-starter. The trace system works, but protects privacy by requiring actual investigative work to obtain the decentralized records. In the current environment, I believe that is a good thing.

[Remmah2]

7. So why do you advocate singling out and persecuting gun owners?

So you think we're all dangerous and worthy of special treatment and regulation because we have the "potential" to do harm? A public health menace? By chipping away at the foundation of civil rights you endanger all civil rights.

A public registration of aids carriers and ex-convicts, "instant ID" would serve the same purpose to promote public safety.

I am a firearm owner, advocate of civil rights without reservation. Privacy and respect should be equal to all.

[Xmit]

8. Unrec for misuse of statistics

113,642 that cannot be found, and? Do you realize that almost 57 million transactions were processed through NICs from 2005 to 2009. Thats 57 million background checks applied for. That would mean the sales numbers could be even higher because you can process up to five firearms on one Form 4473.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2009-operations-report

.19% of guns that were potentially purchased "cannot be found"

Huge number I tell ya:sarcasm:

[Xmit]

9. Another thing that's interesting

All of the talk int he article of "requiring inventory" by the dealer. No reputable business person would not inventory their stock. And if they are not reputable, what the fuck is a self inventory going to acheive?

As a firearms seller, I can tell you that per fed law ALL firearms taken in for service or purchased must be logged in the bound book, just as sold firearms taken out of inventory in the bound book. If the ATF pops in and there are firearms on premises that are not in the inventory, or firearms that should be that are not, that is an invitation for the feds to have a paper party at your store.

[Glassunion]

11. Unrec to the author of the article... Misleading omission of info on page 2.

"The difficulties at the tracing center have slowed efforts to trace guns seized from crime scenes all over the country - as well as in Mexico, where most of the seized weapons come from U.S. gun dealers, according to congressional reports."

It should read "where most of the seized weapons that can be traced come from U.S. gun dealers"

[slackmaster]

13. Classic case of a solution looking for a problem

(The Bushmaster rifle used in the D.C. sniper killings in 2002 had gone missing from a gun store in Tacoma, Wash.)

Computerized tracking of firearms would have made no difference at all in that situation, or any other conceivable one in which a firearm is stolen.

Amazingly, once the rifle fell into the hands of law enforcement they were able to determine its origin with ease.

[rrneck]

16. What assurance can the OP offer

that one of his associates or acquaintances will not acquire one of his firearms and commit a crime with it? How would the OP guarantee that won't happen?

[Glassunion]

18. My solution

Personally, I feel that the ATF and FFLs need a few things.

#1) Leadership... they have been far too long without a director.
#2) Staff... They need staff(not necessarily agents) to process the 4473s. I also feel they need more inspectors(agents). I think that at minimum every dealer should have an(unscheduled) inspection at least once a year.
#3) I think FFLs should also be required to report ALL firearms missing from inventory the moment they are aware that they are missing.

For less than $2k a retailer can purchase, configure and begin using an instant inventory system. A bit more if they do not have any computer systems already. I have set them up in the past. A floor count and back stock count can be performed daily in under an hour by one person counting 2,000+ pieces. I know it is a bit expensive, however I feel that it is necessary.

[Xmit]

19. All good ideas

I would advocate an instant inventory for all retailers, it makes the job much easier.

It's also easier to prove inventory discrepancies due to mistakes or when the retailer is generally not at fault. An example would be a sealed shipping container from a manufacturer that was printed with a SN different than the actual firearm (seen it happen). Another case would be when a firearm is serviced for warranty and must either be replaced, or a different receiver fashioned (both of which a new 4473 and NICS check must be performed, even though the individual already owns the firearm).

[PavePusher]

22. #4) Citizen oversight.

A commitee of 5-10 randomly chosen Citizens, at least 70% gun owners, to review practices and provide dicipline and direction.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I wish you'd get off that nag and ride a real horse for a change. The NRA has done no such thing.

It's the 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act. You might read it, and understand current US Code.