Can't get a gun here? No problem: Florida will issue permit, and local police must honor it. Phila.

[struggle4progress]

authorities are irate

By STEPHANIE FARR
Philadelphia Daily News
[email protected] 215-854-4225

... Pennsylvania residents who are denied a license to carry a concealed weapon, or have theirs revoked, have found a loophole that allows them to get a license from another state that must be honored here.

"They could be disapproved here and they could apply in Florida and we are not notified," said Philadelphia Police Lt. Lisa King, commander of the Gun Permit Unit. "So if we are not giving them a permit to carry, how is Florida allowed to override our decision?"

District Attorney Seth Williams said that the loophole defeats local efforts to keep streets safe.

"We should not allow Florida to pierce the veil of sovereignty of Pennsylvania," he said. "This is something I'm going to direct my legislation unit to look into. This is a loophole I think it would be best to close" ...

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/local/83620277.html?cmpid=15585797

[yodoobo]

1. I thought that Pennsylvania was shall issue

and has one of lowest requirements for issuance.

I don't think penn even requires a class where as florida does.

[X_Digger]

3. Philly has "character and reputation" interviews

"Though the city is now required to comply with the rest of the state's standards, they conduct an additional interview and questionnaire and can decline someone's application based just on their character and reputation."

[spin]

8. Sounds rather racist to me. (n/t)

[Old Codger]

19. Here's the law

Penn.

How to Apply for A Permit
It is very simple to obtain a Pennsylvania Concealed Carry Permit/License. Just take your Pennsylvania
Drivers License or State ID. Names, Addresses and Phone numbers of two references and your check book
and go to the Sheriff’s Office in the county you reside. Tell them you wish to apply for a Permit/License to
Carry a Concealed Weapon. Fill out the application and pay the fee which will be $20 to $30 dollars and you
will have your Permit/License. You many have to wait a few hours to a few weeks to pick it up depending on
the Sheriff.
Your Permit/License is valid for 5 years

Florida

an Application for Concealed Weapon or Firearm License by filling out an online request form for
applications or by contacting any of our offices. The application packet includes the form to be filled out, a
copy of Chapter 790, Florida Statutes, a fingerprint card, and a return envelope for the completed
application. The information provided below is an overview of the application process. Additional
information is provided in the application instructions booklet included with your application.
o Read and study the copy of Chapter 790, Florida Statutes.
o Have a passport-style, color photograph made.
o Get verification of training that satisfies the training requirement. The application lists
acceptable documents. Make a photocopy to send with the application as an original cannot be
returned. Persons serving in the United States Armed Forces may submit a copy of their
Military ID Card to satisfy the training requirement.
o Get certified copies of court documents relating to any criminal charges against you.
o Take the fingerprint card to a local law enforcement agency and ask to be fingerprinted. In
addition to providing fingerprinting services for the traditional "hard-card" format, electronic
fingerprint devices are available at almost all 67 county sheriff’s offices in the state. Visit
Non-Residents apply the same way as residents. Follow the instructions in the Resident permit section

[X_Digger]

2. Dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x288828

And as I said in that thread..

Can't get married here? No problem: Connecticut will issue license and local police must honor it.

.. or it _should_ be that way if the 'Full Faith and Credit' clause were enforced.

I know poor people who did this with driver's licenses in the 80's because at the time, Tennessee didn't require proof of insurance. They couldn't do it via the mail, though.

This was rather odious.. "Though the city is now required to comply with the rest of the state's standards, they conduct an additional interview and questionnaire and can decline someone's application based just on their character and reputation."

[Euromutt]

4. We had a thread about this two weeks ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x288828

[baldguy]

5. Subverting the law via a dodgy loophole?

Showing real responsibility there, Tex. And you want to have a gun?

[bossy22]

9. its not a loophole, and its not even dodging the law really

the law in philly is you can't carry a weapon without a permit from the PA or any state that has an agreement with PA regarding permits. Flordia is one of those states. therefore a florida permit in philly has the same legal strength that any other PA permit would have in philly. This was not an oversight in a law, but a conscience though-out agreement between two states.

so try again

[baldguy]

11. A "law abiding citizen" abides by the law, yes?

Seems to me that anyone taking advantage of this LOOPHOLE would not be abiding by the law. Therefor they could not be considered a "law abiding citizen", would not be supported by responsible gun owners and should not entitled to carry a gun anyway.

Q.E.D.

[Euromutt]

13. Repeatedly asserting something is a loophole doesn't make it one

When your logic is impeccable, but your premises are incorrect, your conclusions may be logically valid, but they will not be correct.

[bossy22]

14. they are abiding by the law

there is no law in PA that says if you live in PA you must have a PA permit to carry a gun. The law says you need a permit from PA or any other state that it has a reciprocical agreement with regarding gun permits. One of those states happens to be florida. Many gun owners in PA have florida permits because florida permits are accepted in more states then a PA permit is.

This is not a loophole, because its not getting around the law. in actuallity it is the INTENTION OF THE LAW. The state signed an agreement with Florida with the expressed intention of allowing florida permits be valid in PA. this wasnt some unintended consequence and therefore cannot be considered a loophole

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

17. Do you support denying rights based on charges that were dropped?

She also said that Florida looks only at convictions, not arrest history or one's character and reputation, as the Philadelphia police do.

"If somebody has been arrested a dozen times and the cases have just been dismissed or discharged, that doesn't mean the crime didn't happen," she said.

I guess innocent until proven guilty doesn't sit well with Lt. King of the fucking Philadelphia police.

[Euromutt]

18. Nice straw man, as usual

The denials being issued by the Philadelphia police dept. are not based on criminal record; were that the case, the people in question wouldn't be able to acquire non-resident Florida CWPs, seeing as how Florida also conducts a background check for applicants. Yes, Florida only looks at convictions, not arrests. Interesting that the police department and prosecutor of the city where the Constitution was drawn up seem to be unaware that, where the state is concerned, an arrest or someone else's assessment of your "character and reputation" is not evidence of guilt.

And we're not strictly speaking talking about people being denied a permit in one state; we're talking about people denied a permit in a particular city that wields standards that are out of step with the rest of the state. It's not like this seems to be issue in the rest of Pennsylvania outside Philadelphia.

[baldguy]

20. Most times the only thing keeping such people from being criminals is they had no guns.

A simple assault with no jail time & charges dismissed would turn into aggravated assault with a firearm, or even murder.

People aren't denied gun permits for no reason. And there's no law that says you have to live in Philadelphia if you don't like the laws there.

[bossy22]

22. more good ones

"People aren't denied gun permits for no reason"

technically correct, realistically not. Yes there is always a reason but the question is if its reasonable and logical. Philly yanks permits for making a late payment on a parking ticket. Is that reasonable?- not really. The two are not connected in a reasonable way.

"Most times the only thing keeping such people from being criminals is they had no guns"
no, not true. There are different levels of assault one person might "perform" against another. If such a person wanted to assault someone with the intention of causing great bodily harm or death; if such person didnt have a gun they would probably pick up anything in site and use it as a weapon. We are talking about a rock, bottle, knife, or any heavy object. If such was the case, the assailant would be charged not a simple assault, but assault with a deadly weapon.

There are different levels of physical aggression. In fact the best example is hockey. Fighting in hockey may look rutheless and barbaric but the truth is that neither side is looking to kill the other. If they wanted to the have plenty of means; skates, sticks....but none of them are used. So its possible that a person may have the means to kill someone on them during a physical altercation, but never have the will to use it

[beevul]

24. Bwahahahaha.

"People aren't denied gun permits for no reason."

Tell that to AVERAGE people that try to get a CCW in California.

[Euromutt]

31. You didn't bother reading more than a paragraph or two, did you?

From the OP article:

"You can purchase a firearm but you can't get a permit in Philadelphia to save your life," said Richard Oliver, a firearms instructor in Northeast Philadelphia who teaches safety courses for those seeking permits out of Florida and Utah. "That's what causes people to go to other states to get the permits."

Italics mine. It's not about being able to acquire a firearm; it's about being able to get a permit to legally carry it concealed in public. If we're talking about the kind of person who has such lousy impulse control that they'd just as soon shoot someone as punch them, it's hard to imagine they'd manage to get to 21 without a criminal record. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the idea that an inanimate object has powers of mind control.

People aren't denied gun permits for no reason.

While that is indeed true, law enforcement in this country (as in every other) has a rather extensive history of denying permits for entirely the wrong reasons. The applicant may be black, Jewish, Hispanic, or recently immigrated; the applicant may lack fame, wealth, political influence or connections within the police department. "Shall issue" laws got adopted precisely because sheriffs and police chiefs had a habit of abusing, rather than exercising, their discretion.

And there's no law that says you have to live in Philadelphia if you don't like the laws there.

I wonder how that argument would have been received around here if it had been the basis of the case for the defense in Lawrence v. Texas: "if you don't like the laws in Texas(/Virginia/North Carolina/South Carolina/Florida/Alabama/Louisiana/Arkansas/Missouri/Kansas/Oklahoma/Utah/Idaho), you can always leave."

In addition, the law isn't any different in Philadelphia than in the rest of Pennsylvania; it is that the standards applied by the Philadelphia Police Dept. are markedly different from that of the sheriff's office of every other county in the Commonwealth.

[bossy22]

21. you do know that florida also uses the same basic system as PA

to check a persons criminal record. If they have convictions on their records for such offenses as you mentioned above, i don't think they would recieve a florida permit otherwise.

ohh and this is going to be good....
"Of course in a civilized country, various jurisdictions would respect each others' laws, work together & share info to ensure the safely of ALL of their citizens, and if a person wanting a gun permit were denied in one sate, that would be reason enough to deny him in another state, too."

hey guess what buddy, the street goes both ways!!!! This should also mean that if one state issues a person a permit, all states should respect it. I'm with you all the way on this one.

[PavePusher]

23. By the way...

"But, of course we're talking about FloriDUH here."

Nice disparagement of an entire state, there.

Do you display the same level of bigotry on other subjects of conversation?

[GreenStormCloud]

32. What law have they broken? N/T

[virginia mountainman]

28. That is EXACTLY what they are doing in Philidephia...

Time to sue....Just like Mayor Nickles in Seattle, they will only learn when sued...

With Firearm law preemption in PA, Philly, is wanting to be slapped to the floor.

[krispos42]

29. Sounds like they're subverting an dodgy process via a sensible loophole n/t

[DesertFlower]

6. isn't that just great?

:sarcasm:

[bossy22]

10. that there is a reciprocical agreement between the state of Florida and PA?

absolutely. In fact there would be reciprocity throughout all 50 states. Hey we do that with drivers licenses even though the examinations vary greatly from state to state.

[DesertFlower]

16. i agree. nt

[PavePusher]

12. What is the problem with it? n/t

[spin]

7. Update from Florida...

Under both states' reciprocity laws, any Pennsylvania resident with a permit to carry a concealed weapon does not need a permit to carry a concealed weapon in Florida.

But, in what Philadelphia police and prosecutors deem a "loophole" in the reciprocity law, Pennsylvania residents who were denied a permit or had theirs revoked are allowed to get one from Florida - through the mail - which then must be honored here.

Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams and Gun Permit Unit commander Lt. Lisa King spoke out against the loophole and said that Florida's standards for granting concealed carry permits are far more lax than Philadelphia's.

But Pennsylvania gun-rights advocates said that Philadelphia's standards for granting permits are far more restrictive than anywhere else in the state and thus they are forced to go elsewhere, like Florida, to legally carry here.

"Pennsylvania feels our standards are as rigorous as their own but Philadelphia apparently has a different standard than the rest of the state," McElroy said. "Our legislation allows us to deal with states, not municipalities. That's what the law dictates."

Overall, Florida has issued 70,228 nonresident permits.emphasis added
http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/83865682.html

edited to add missing link

[krispos42]

30. Florida's standards may be far below Philidephia's, but not below Pennsylvania's.

And with state pre-emption, that's all that matters.

[hibby76]

25. It's not a loophole...

It's the law makers that created reciprocity laws with other states. That would like me saying a robber breached my security system when I turned it off, left the door open, and then got robbed.

[PavePusher]

26. Misleading title.

Neither Floridas nor Pennsylvanias permit system have anything to do with obtaining a firearm, only with carrying such in public, concealed. And that's run just the same as recognising each others drivers licences.

What the problem is?

[virginia mountainman]

27. The only loophole that needs closed..

Is the one where Philly, thinks they can add extra restrictions, PA is a preemption state...This situation is juicy, and ripe, for a good'ol lawsuit..

Just like Nickles in Seattle... Time to burst that boil wide open, and drain the pus out of it..

[old mark]

33. Philly's gun laws are in violation of the PA State constitution. PA IS a

"Shall Issue" state, but Philly has decided the laws do not apply to their little corner of the world. I have a PA license to carry and have carried in Philadelphia and nearby regions every time I have been there for the last 15 years. Why should it be legal for me, a PA resident who lives 40 miles away from Philadelphia and not for a PA resident who lives in the city.
Philly's facist police at work again.

mark