Balance on the issue - NRA vs. the dead. How that plays in WA state these days.

[RealityInSeattle]

[keopeli]

1. Thanks - cool graphic, RIS! n/t

[SteveM]

28. Did you know the NRA pays royalties to artists like the one posted?

For years, the NRA has paid royalties to virulent gun-banner artists. Why? you might ask. Because they use the stuff to recruit new members and to spread their agenda.

Nice to know how the OP and these MSM cartoonists are helping the NRA.

[paulsby]

2. i have yet to speak with ONE police officer here in the seattle/tacoma area

and that includes myself, who thinks that the NRA is the problem, or that RKBA should be eroded.

it's disgusting that people are using my brother officers as symbols in their campaign to erode constitutional rights.

i was present, as part of the honor guard for dep. mundell at harborview, when his body was escorted to the ME's office.

also, as to dep. mundell, you are aware that a resident in the house pulled one of the officers to safety and DEFENDED him with her gun, or aren't you?

[sharesunited]

6. Guns and ammo in the hands of the public are your mortal enemy.

And a samaritan's use of a gun to defend against a criminal gunman, although certainly a noble act, does not change the nature of the menace in the first instance.

[paulsby]

9. guns and ammo in the hands of CCW'ers

are NOT my enemy. they are my friend.

the stats prove that.

CCW'ers are extremely unlikely to attack anybody , cops included.

i respect RKBA and so do most cops

and maybe those of us who have worked the streets (i have for 20 yrs) might have a LITTLE better idea of who is and isn't our mortal enemy than you.

my best friend was shot and killed by a scumbag repeat felon murderer. not a lawful carrier.

i've never been harmed by any person lawfully holding a firearm (and i've been in shootouts, etc.).

etc.

[sharesunited]

11. The access which your lawful carrier enjoys is the same access which the killer enjoys.

You simply take the view that every unjust killing is still somehow "worth it."

[paulsby]

12. i take the view that civil rights matter

it's not a matter of "worth it".

i don't believe that gun control would save lives, and i haven't seen any evidence to prove that.

[gorfle]

24. It is worth it.

The access which your lawful carrier enjoys is the same access which the killer enjoys.

You are exactly correct. The access to firearms which we all enjoy means that some people will use that access for doing bad things.

The difference between us is that you would sacrifice the rights of lawful carriers on behalf of killers.

You are in a loosing position. So long as the statistics bear out that 98% of firearm owners aren't involved in violent crime, you will never, ever convince people that for the sake of a few problem people everyone should have their rights infringed.

[michreject]

33. Every justifiable killing was worth it

It saves someone else some heart ache down the road.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. Keep the jokes coming shares.

[jeepnstein]

30. That's a new one.

At least you're not spouting the same emotional gibberish you usually use.

An armed lawful citizen is the very least of my concern. Shares, have you ever pinned on a badge, even for a little while?

[rd_kent]

34. A computer in the hands of the ignorant is my enemy.

Your ignorance on this issue is like a black hole, sucking the intelligence away from anyone that get near.

[OttavaKarhu]

51. Sex toys in the hands of the incompetent are your mortal enemy.

[baldguy]

3. Guns need more rights than people.

[rd_kent]

35. Guns have no rights.

[katandmoon]

4. K&R, NRA values guns more than human life because guns are $$$ to them.

[Katya Mullethov]

31. This may come as a complete shock

You are the NRA's ricebowl .

[GreenStormCloud]

41. So true, so true.

I remember when the NRA was an education and shooting organization devoted to gun safety and improving rifle accuracy. It was with the rise of the gun-controllers that the NRA moved into politics and grew to the giant umbrella RKBA organization that it is today. Membership back then was about 250,000, when our population was about 150 million. Population has about doubled and NRA is about 16 times larger, and far, far more politically active. The reason for the growth of the NRA, and also for the founding of other RKBA groups, is that gun owners know that there are people who want to impose laws that would take our guns away, as we have seen happen in the UK and Australia, or severely restrict them as in Mexico or Canada.

[rrneck]

5. Wow.

You have to crib emotional hyperbole?

Just. Wow.

[baldguy]

8. Heston instilling fear in the simple minds of NRA bots isn't emotional hyperbole?

"I'll give you my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

Give me a break, sunshine.

[rrneck]

10. What's your point?

And what makes you think it means anything to me? Nut that he was, at least Heston was an actor and delivered his own lines. Lifting a cartoon and using it to start a thread here with no comment or analysis is little more than flamebait. And you jumped right on the bandwagon.

You need some sunshine, because you're completely in the dark.

[pipoman]

13. Funny that..

I and many others on this site feel just that emotional about or freedom of speech, association, search and seizure, and yes our right to keep and bear..I have seen sit ins , acts of civil disobedience, often carried out by liberal/progressive people. Is 'cold dead hands' hyperbole? Yep...who's accusing of hyperbole though? If it happens to be , say, anyone who carries the VPC or Brady's water, well...that there would be a pot and kettle moment, no?

[GreenStormCloud]

44. Heston didn't instill the fear.

That was done by anti-gun politicians who declared that they wanted to completely ban gun ownership in America.

That was done by cities like DC and Chicago.

That was done by watching what happened in other countries.

[OttavaKarhu]

49. So you're another GCA68 racist then?

Chuck Heston marched with MLK and was an active Democratic supporter of civil rights at a time it could have cost him his Hollywood career. He supported the Gun Control Act of 1968 as a result, and later realized that it was a huge, and racist, mistake. He recanted, and became strongly pro-RKBA, in part out of realizing how wrong he had been about GCA68. Something I wish more Democrats were capable of.

I think you should de-cardboard-cutout your thinking a bit. Do a little reading on the ikons you anti-worship. Instead of just jerkin yer knees in that gunscaredy tarantella.

By the way, that comment of his was hyperbole only etymologically, not rhetorically. Look it up. Rhetorically he was simply restating the Second Amendment in very simple words, rather as Mencken rewrote the Declaration of Independence in American.

[baldguy]

53. I see you're using tactic # 421(a) in the RW Attack Handbook.

The Alzheimer's-induced RW dementia of his later years - the involvement in the NRA is a prime example, but not the only one - is in no way diminishes Heston's political activism 40 yrs ago, but is a stark contrast to it nonetheless.

Real liberals try to show compassion & understanding to people with mental illnesses. Conservatives will inevitably exploit them for their own nefarious purposes - like the NRA did with Charlton Heston.

[PavePusher]

56. What particular instances are you alluding to?

Specifics would be nice, not just a general innuendo at the man's character.

[PavePusher]

55. Quote one of the most consistent supporters of Civil Rights ever to grace Hollywood.

Keep 'em coming...

[aikoaiko]

7. Of course gun policy critics always forget the voters in the "balance"

eta: Its the flaw of all anti-gun folks -- they forget the will of the people.

Put criminals behind bars for a long time and there will be fewer dead civilians and police.

[safeinOhio]

14. My problem with the NRA is

your dues will be used to support right wing religious bigots like S. Palin and M. Bachman. You may keep your 2nd Amendment rights and kiss goodbye your 1st Amendment rights. They will take away your rights to your own religious practice. Biblical laws before the constitution. Wars with all non Christian nations and schools that will throw out all science that contradicts their views. Just remember where your dues will be going.

[X_Digger]

15. They are a single issue advocacy group

Just as the Sierra Club endorsed Duncan Hunter (R) in California, the NRA bases their endorsements on a candidate's position on a single issue. Hunter was a strident opponent of health care reform, would you stop supporting the Sierra Club because of their support for Hunter?

[safeinOhio]

16. That is my problem with them

Your dues go to religious nuts like the 3 Reps that are part of C-Street.
Joe Pitts rate A
Zach Wamp A
Frank Wolf B+

Throw in S.Palin and Tom Delay.

All would throw out your 1st Amendment rights in a second.

If you want to donate or pay dues, please consider all of your constitutional rights and send your dollars to the ones that support all of them. Don't let some crazy NRA pick your people and use your dues. They care nothing about your other freedoms. If the only issue you vote on is guns, what the hell are you doing here?

[X_Digger]

18. What "ones that support all of them" also cover 2nd eh?

ACLU? I'm a card carrying member, but they don't really support the second amendment. Being a member of both covers all 26 amendments.

[gorfle]

25. The NRA does not pick them.

If you want to donate or pay dues, please consider all of your constitutional rights and send your dollars to the ones that support all of them.

I do wish to support all of them. But the most effective group at supporting the second amendment is the NRA. So for this particular Constitutional right, I will continue to send my money and support to the organization most effective at advocating for it.

Don't let some crazy NRA pick your people and use your dues.

The NRA does not pick candidates' stances on the second amendment - the candidates do that themselves. The NRA simply works for candidates who have chosen to support the second amendment, and opposes those who have chosen not to.

They care nothing about your other freedoms.

This is because the NRA is a single-issue organization!

If the only issue you vote on is guns, what the hell are you doing here?

Guns are not the only issue I vote on. But I hold with the belief of our founders that the right to keep and bear arms is necessary to the security of a free state, by enabling the people to act as the final bulwark against tyranny. Thus I am here in the Guns forum to espouse and defend that view.

[GreenStormCloud]

43. That kind of thing happens with any single issue organization.

The NRA takes absolutely no position on other issues. Anybody with a record of supporting gun-rights will be supported, those opposed will be opposed. Democrats can get A+ rating too, and some do. All they have to do is support gun rights. It appears that you want a gun-rights groups that places gun-rights last on their list of rights.

[safeinOhio]

17. No I do not send money to the Sierra Club.

I send my dollars to individuals I agree with on most if not all issues. No one issue.

[X_Digger]

19. Then you're diluting your money..

.. rather than joining it with others who feel strongly about an issue. That's why we have political parties to begin with.

[aikoaiko]

32. Its a concern for me too, but my 2nd Amend rights have been damaged far more than any other so far

SO I am willing to support the NRA if they continue to support the best pro-rkba candidate regardless of party.

If our more Democratic politicians got their heads out of their asses on RKBA, the NRA would support them too.

[proteus_lives]

20. Please explain how someone else's criminal acts mean I should lose my rights.

I can never get a straight answer out of a grabber.

[gorfle]

26. It's simple.

Please explain how someone else's criminal acts mean I should lose my rights

It's quite simple, proteus_lives. According to anti-firearm folks, the abuse of firearms, even by a tiny minority of firearm owners, is sufficient cause to try and eliminate all firearms.

To them, there is no benefit to owning firearms that outweighs the death and injury caused by the few who use them to do bad things.

[gorfle]

22. Great cartoon!

I love the message! The interests of millions of firearm owners defending their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms does vastly outweigh the crimes committed by a few.

Well done!

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Yet, the NRA isn't terribly active here in Seattle.

Let alone the State.

[OttavaKarhu]

50. Most Pugetpolans I know who joined the NRA...

...were required to do so by their gun clubs, etc., for insurance purposes or whatever.

Whatever.

They've carried the ball for a lot of us who dropped it. I can't say many of us have come up with something more effective. Though that recent run on guns last year was pretty damn good.

[eqfan592]

27. Wow, what a load of dog shit THAT is.

I swear, people like you just LOVE to ignore defensive gun usage, don't ya? Pitiful.

[Katya Mullethov]

29. My photoshop-fu is weak I will admit .

But shouldnt the little fat guy have "DA" on his chest and be waving placards labeled "plea bargains" and "spurious convictions" exclaiming "I'm gonna make JUDGE !!!!!! " Mine would have several fat guys actually , you need to represent the whole spectrum of state and muni prosecutors as there is quite a few of them giving away the store .

[safeinOhio]

36. NRA love Dick Cheney

and your dues go to support people that only support the 2nd Amendment and no other parts of the Constitution.

February 08, 2008

On behalf of four million NRA members and 80 million American gun owners, we would like to thank Vice President Dick Cheney for his strong support of the individual rights view of the Second Amendment. Today, in his capacity as President of the United States Senate, Vice President Cheney signed on to the congressional amicus curiae brief affirming the individual rights view of the Second Amendment. As Americans, we are grateful and fortunate to have a friend of freedom in the Vice President.



CHENEY ACCUSED OF WAR CRIMES
Thursday, May 1st, 2008

BBC | A top aide to former Secretary of State Colin Powell has launched a stinging attack on US Vice-President Dick Cheney over abuse of prisoners by US troops. Col Lawrence Wilkerson accused Mr Cheney of ignoring a decision by President Bush on the treatment of prisoners in the war on terror.
Asked by the BBC’s Today if Mr Cheney could be accused of war crimes, he said: “It’s an interesting question.”
“Certainly it is a domestic crime to advocate terror,” he added.



So, the problem for radical single issue supporters. Money will be spent on people with an "A" for 2nd Amend. against people with a B+ on the 2nd and supporting all of your rights.

[aikoaiko]

37. And what is stopping Democrats from getting A+ NRA ratings?

On a related note if the ACLU defended the 2nd Amendment, the NRA would not be an important player in politics.

[safeinOhio]

39. I never knew that the ACLU was

an important player in politics. How many millions does it spend on candidates? How much does the NRA spend?

[aikoaiko]

47. I didn't say that ACLU was political player -- but if the ACLU protected the 2nd

then you would undermine the NRA's political play. People wouldn't donate nearly as much to the NRA (enabling it to spend money) if the ACLU protected the 2nd as vigorously as the other civil rights.

The NRA gets its money because of the fear of more gun control laws that stifle law abiding folks exercise of the 2nd Amendment. Eliminate the basis for that fear and your undermine the NRA's political clout.

Surely, you've thought about this if you've thought about the politics and money involved.

[spin]

40. Many Democrats do get high ratings from the NRA ...

for example the Governor of New Mexico, Bill Richardson.

Richardson positions himself strongly as a man of the West--down to his cowboy boots and string tie. As part of this image, he promotes his support of gun ownership, which dates back to his opposition in Congress to the 1993 Brady Bill. When the National Rifle Association endorsed him in his second run for governor in 2006, Richardson joined them for the announcement at the NRA-sponsored National Police Shooting Championships, held, according to the group’s website, at “a new, state-of-the-art facility i Albuquerque’s Shooting Range Park, made possible with $1.4 million in funding and vigorous support from governor Bill Richardson.“ The NRA’s executive director reported that Richardson ”has treated us first class.“ Richardson, who supported a law allowin New Mexicans to carry concealed weapons, told an appreciative crowd that he had a concealed-carry permit himself. ”I an not packing today, though, because I have plenty of State Police officers here to protect me.“
http://www.ontheissues.org/2008/Bill_Richardson_Gun_Control.htm

[aikoaiko]

46. Of course, I but I was responding to safeinohio who blamed the NRA for supportin Repubs

I'm well aware many Democrats score well and some even score better than their Republican counterparts.

My point being the Democratic politicians can easier capture NRA if they supported the RKBA unequivocally.

[spin]

52. I probably should have responded directly to him ...

kinda missed the target on that one.

[SteveM]

38. Be careful about royalty payment violations; that artist is first at the trough(nt)

[SteveM]

42. "NRA vs. the Dead." Sounds like a B zombie movie (nt)

[aikoaiko]

48. I thought Bob Wier, Micky Hart, Phil Lesch, Bill Kreutzmann might be involved

[rd_kent]

45. Thats your opinion. Not the REALITY in washington though. Do you ever respond?

or are you a hut and run poster?

[spin]

54. The NRA doesn't support gun ownership for criminals ...

Tuesday, April 11, 2000

WASHINGTON, D.C.)--While President Clinton was engaged in "the theatre of press conference politics," the U.S. House of Representatives voted 358-60 to adopt Project Exile nationwide, an effective law enforcement program endorsed by the National Rifle Association since its beginning in Richmond, Virginia three years ago. "This is a day that perfectly exemplifies what the entire debate is about," said James Jay Baker, executive director of the NRA`s Institute for Legislative Action. "While Bill Clinton was performing in the theatre of press conference politics, the United States House of Representatives was passing legislation to take a proven, tough law enforcement program nationwide. Today highlights the difference between political theatre and proven, effective public policy." Project Exile began as a Richmond, Virginia effort to fully enforce existing federal laws against violent criminals with guns and drug dealers carrying guns on the streets of that city. In three years, the gun murder rate in Richmond has been cut in half and the program has been adopted with similar success in Rochester, Birmingham, Oakland, and other cities. In recent months, the states of Virginia, Pennsylvania, Texas, South Carolina, and Colorado have adopted state models of the program, and a number of other cities and states are considering similar programs. "We have supported Project Exile, both politically and financially, for three years," Baker explained. "Today`s vote in the House is a tremendous step toward NRA`s goal of a national effort to do what the Clinton-Gore Administration has refused to do, that is, fully enforce existing tough laws against violent felons who illegally carry and misuse guns. And it`s a step that the overwhelming majority of Americans want --tough enforcement of current laws, instead of layer upon layer of new laws that only restrict the rights of law-abiding gun owners." According to Syracuse University, federal prosecutions of gun laws decreased by almost fifty percent during the Clinton-Gore Administration, while federal referrals to state authorities for prosecutions decreased by thirty percent. "It is unfortunate that the House today had to take this step toward better enforcement of existing laws, when Bill Clinton and Al Gore have had the power to implement this program since they came into office," Baker said. "I applaud the Members of Congress for understanding what the President apparently does not --criminals only pay attention to tough enforcement of the law." emphasis added
http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?id=86

If indeed tough laws would have been enforced against Maurice Clemmons, the shooter in the Lakewood shooting, should have never had the chance to shoot police officers.

Maurice Clemmons, the 37-year-old Tacoma man being sought for questioning in the killing this morning of four Lakewood police officers, has a long criminal record punctuated by violence, erratic behavior and concerns about his mental health.

Nine years ago, then-Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee granted clemency to Clemmons, commuting his lengthy prison sentence over the protests of prosecutors.

"This is the day I've been dreading for a long time," Larry Jegley, prosecuting attorney for Arkansas' Pulaski County said tonight when informed that Clemmons was being sought for questioning in connection with the killings.

Clemmons' criminal history includes at least five felony convictions in Arkansas and at least eight felony charges in Washington. The record also stands out for the number of times he has been released from custody despite questions about the danger he posed.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010385...

The NRA is right on target on this issue. We need to enforce existing laws and take dangerous people off the street.

Obviously, many people in this country feel we need to be more like other nations who don't trust their citizens with firearms. They would love to see our country disarmed.

Some of these people are well meaning concerned people who seriously see little use for firearms in a modern society.

A high percentage of these people have little familiarity with firearms except the unrealistic view presented in action movies. These people fear firearms and firearm owners because of movie hype and Superman characters who bear no resemblance to real life gun owners.

A smaller percentage probably have have a personal tragedy in their family or their personal life caused by the misuse of a firearm, criminal or accidental. (I can understand the feelings of these people and their aversion to firearms.)

And many of the people who would disarm America are people are racist and fear firearms in the hands of minorities.

And some are posters on DU who start a tread and lack the common courtesy, the intelligence or the ability to engage in the discussion that follows. These "drive by posters" are the same fools who would enjoy throwing a fire cracker into a crowd and yelling, "Gun". They probably giggle like adolescent teenagers when they hit post.