please delete. this has become flame bait. I will clarify

[NightWatcher]

They react to fear about Scary Black Guns and think that all of these "assault weapons" spray hundreds of rounds with the single pull of a trigger. I know of 30-06's and .308's that fall within the class of "hunting rifles" that are more deadly than the average AK- which just looks scary because we've seen automatic variants on tv and in the movies for years.

So dont get too angry when you try to defend your positions here because many who oppose guns are ignorant about technicalities that surround their position. Ignorance is not a crime, but basing your outspoken opinion on ignorance should be.

[sui generis]

1. face it most gunjeoners don't know squat about "anti-gunners"

Gotta keep you somewhere. Keep the guns in a locked cabinet, keep the "pro-gunners" in the gunjeon.

sheesh

[Raskolnik]

58. Would you rather be referred to as "anti-Constitution'ers?"

Or possibly "anti-Bill of Right'ers?"

[sui generis]

61. I done said my piece

I would prefer not to be generalized at all by people who feel names are a substitute for knowing something about people.

[Raskolnik]

62. Was your reference to "gungeoners" ironic, then? n/t

[sui generis]

63. no that was tit fer tat

:P

[Raskolnik]

64. So it was more of a "labels for thee, but not for me" kind of thing. Got it.

[unhappycamper]

2. Well, this anti-gunner knows a tad about guns.

M-1 - Expert
M-14 - Expert
M-16 - Expert

US Army - 1963~1973
RVN - 1967~1968 (Tet)
RVN - 1970~1971 (Cambodia)

I also carried a .45 and an 40mm 'under' attachment when I was in Cambodia in 1970 (second tour). I know what the other end of an AK-47 sounds like.

I'm not really pro-gun. I understand the right to bears arms thing, but I really question automatic weapons on the US market. Sorry.

[TheWraith]

4. There aren't any real automatic weapons on the US market.

Not unless you've got ten or twenty grand to drop on a collector's piece, not to mention the necessary NFA licensing and etcetera that you need to own it legally.

[tridim]

6. Keep believing that if you want.

But you know it's not true.

Shhh, don't tell anyone about those "kits" you can buy under the table.

[TheWraith]

8. Fine, then I'm sure that you can show me crimes in the US involving auto weapons.

(Crickets)

[tridim]

9. How about the crime of selling full-auto kits under the table at gun shows?

[TheWraith]

12. Okay, show me. I'm sure it must be easy if it's that common.

(Crickets)

[tridim]

14. Criminals tend to hide their crimes

Are you really denying it? :rofl:

[NewMoonTherian]

69. Sorry for jumping in...

but you haven't provided the first bit of evidence that this is taking place. Who's buying them? If the sale was arranged ahead of time, what would be the advantage of closing the deal at a gun show, amid hundreds of potential witnesses?

If you're suggesting these sales take place spontaneously, I've conversed with many vendors, pro and private, about the channels for legally owning an automatic weapon. None of them has yet leaned in and whispered, "but if yer interested, I gots this nifty kit you can drop into your dumb ol' semi." Do I just have a knack for only dealing with honest, upstanding vendors? Or do I give off a narc vibe I'm not aware of?

If you're talking about bump-fire kits, at least one iteration was taken off the market long before I became a gun nut, and I haven't seen anything like it at a show. Maybe they still exist, but their availability and legality is another matter, which we can discuss if that's what you're referring to. From what I hear, their efficacy is on par with that of a rubber band.

The scenario you've given us is incredibly flimsy and you've done nothing to support it other than beg the question. On the other hand, I'm not so naive as to think nobody out there is converting their guns to FA. The internet has plenty of examples of that and other highly questionable or flatly illegal activity. You could've sited any of a handful of methods people use to rip through a 30-round mag in a couple of seconds. Instead, you pulled this gun show fable out of thin air.

I'm not attacking a strawman here. Let's continue the conversation, but let's get some honest discourse going here.

[TheWraith]

76. Are you really asking me to prove a negative?

To provide proof that there's no booming, secret, invisible business in magical "full auto" kits that modify existing guns into automatics?

The only way to do that would be with a full set of parts off a full-auto version of the same weapon, which would probably cost you one hell of a mint.

[AtheistCrusader]

78. Yeah, I'll call you on it.

Possession of the parts to do it is a felony. In the eyes of the law, possession of just the parts is the same as the possession of a fully assembled machine gun.

I don't know if this applies nationwide, but at the gun shows in this state, the BATFE and local police patrol the show. Some of the sellers are police. Some of the buyers are police.

Posession of a pile of parts is not necessarily enough to convert a weapon. Often the receiver will have extra plates, or modifications so it cannot accept the fully automatic replacement parts.

Using a fully automatic weapon at a range or gravel pit is an extreme attention-getter, and will attract forest rangers, and state patrol. So attempting to use the converted weapon has a high liklihood of getting you caught, if you test it, or learn how to shoot with it.

So, lets see some hard numbers on recovered weapons from crimes, that were converted illegally, or people caught with conversion kits.

[jeepnstein]

23. Go buy one and then report back to us.

It won't happen.

[tridim]

32. I don't know the secret handshake

and I wouldn't go anywhere near a gun show anyway.

[jeepnstein]

44. Oh, so you don't know what you're talking about?

That's what I figured.

[gorfle]

60. Urban Legend, I suspect.

Someone has posted here recently testimony before congress of some police commissioner from California, I believe, where he said in his entire career they had never once confiscated a converted fully-automatic weapon.

Also, I would be highly surprised to find such "full auto kits" at gun shows. Mere possession of fully-automatic parts and the firearm the go to is a felony. They do not even have to be assembled in the firearm.

Further, most gun shows (have you ever been to one?) have a fair police presence, at least at the door.

I'd be really surprised to see someone selling "full auto kits under the table" at gun shows.

[paulsby]

71. i've never seen one either

and i've been in law enforcement a long time.

for a while, i worked undercover. bought guns and drugs almost exclusively. never saw one then either.

of course they exist, but pretty frigging rare

[yay]

84. The magic part you guy's are looking for it called a "drop in auto sear"

Unfortunately they're regulated by the NFA as well since 196-(4 I think). Another problem is they are far from "drop in". They require a fair amount of technical skill to time, not to mention they have to be made for a specific gun. But it will turn an otherwise semi-auto rifle/subgun into a full automatic.

I've also never seen one at a gun show. Let alone an unregistered one being sold under the table. Course if you happen to find one for a saiga 12 let me know.

[X_Digger]

18. Riiiiight..

Funny, I've been to every gun show in and around the DFW area for 10+ years, and I've never seen one of these magical kits.

You'd think if these mythical things existed, you'd see them in Texas (or have the news report crimes committed with rifles so modified.)

Reality is, if you had the skill to make the parts (or install them) to convert a semi-auto weapon into full auto, you could create one from scratch. It's a well known non-secret that ads for these things in magazines are actually sting operations set up by the BATFE to catch the stupid.

[Statistical]

20. Really....

Did you see that on a TV movie or something?

The BATFE considers a weapon that can be easily converted to fully auto to BE fully auto.
That includes all the fun stuff like seizures, raids, prison time, million dollar fines, etc.

Modern semi-auto rifles can not be easily converted. They use incompatible bolt carriers.
That isn't to say it can't be done but it would require a lot of skill, time, specialized equipment, and full service metal shop.

The idea you can buy a "conversion kit" that consist of a handful of springs and sears and apply it to a modern semi-auto is a joke.

You were joking right? Please tell me you were joking?
Or are you one of those people who forwards every chain email because the email says Microsoft will pay $1000 to each person it is forwarded to as part of a beta test?

[tridim]

25. Well, they used to be advertised in the back of gun magazines.

The last kit I physcially saw was 10 years ago, purchased by a FOAF (at a gun show) who also had a habit of buying fully automatic weapons from his coke dealer. I told him he was an idiot and never saw him again.

You know, denying the truth is not an effective debate tactic, but you are living up to my expectations. Most gun nuts deny that the kits exist, always have, always will.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Conversion kits for what weapons?

[DonP]

39. Yeah, my sister in Iowa knows all about them too.

She has never learned to use a gun safely, never been to a gun show , has zero mechanical aptitude, and has no idea about existing gun laws or the historical facts on crimes committed with full auto weapons. But she knows all about all of us "gun nuts" and what we are up to at our secret meetings at gun shows and thinks the government should be able to inspect any home that has a firearm in it..

She told me all about how she heard how you can buy "one of those kits at any gun show for $10 or so that turn any gun into a machine gun". She's real well informed too.

Let me guess, you have never been to a gun show in the real world, you don't know much about guns, how they work, or how different semi autos are from real Class III weapons, probably don't know what a receiver block is. But based on a FOAF who might have shown you something in a bag or box a decade ago (Did he know about that guy with the hook on Lovers Lane too?) you're convinced that they are out there and being bought all the time by your fellow Democrat Gun Nuts.

It's probably just coincidence that they never turn up in news stories, that the Brady bunch would publish in less than 30 seconds if they did.

"You know, denying the truth is not an effective debate tactic..."

Neither is making shit up as you go along.

[Statistical]

54. so show that on exists....

somewhere someone must have made a copy of those ads or documented a kit they bought at a gun show.

I mean in the giant world-wide interwebs nobody has evidence other than what someone saw a friend buy at a gunshow.

Even if such kits DID exist semi-autos produced today CAN'T be converted. Period. BATFE is very clear on this and they don't joke around.

Since any ban would ban future sales it would ban all the weapons that can't be converted.

Now that is problem solving.

[TheWraith]

77. Sorry, but you're repeating something that's simply not true.

Full auto conversions of semi-auto weapons are illegal since 1934. Even possessing one or the parts for it without a federal license is a felony. Ask the police: you'll find that nobody you can talk to will ever claim to have found or siezed a converted weapon. You may be thinking of so-called "bump kits," which are little trigger attachments that give you the illusion of select-fire. But it's not full auto, it's just a device to pull the trigger three times fast.

[yay]

94. Actually

You don't have to have a FFL, just a $200 tax stamp(provided it's legal in your state) People have been able to buy newly manufactured full automatics and register them until 1986 with the amendment to the FOPA. Even still, F/A weapons that are currently in circulation are still legal. They just have to be made before 1986.

Also those bump fire kits don't work worth a damn.

[tisfortomi]

92. Kit or assembled weapon?

"The last kit I physcially saw was 10 years ago, purchased by a FOAF (at a gun show) who also had a habit of buying fully automatic weapons from his coke dealer. I told him he was an idiot and never saw him again."

Physically saw, as opposed to psychically saw, or emotionally saw, or imagined or heard tell of? So you saw the kit, or you saw a fully-assembled, functional weapon? Was this a true auto-sear, or just a bump-fire kit or one of those "trigger cranks," a mechanical device that facilitates rapid trigger action? Both of those are quasi-legal (i.e. in some states and not others) and are cumbersome as hell, yielding a weapon that would be virtually useless to a criminal but might be fun to use to show off to one's buds in a quarry somewhere.

And from this one anecdotal citation, are we to extrapolate a major social problem requiring legislation?

"You know, denying the truth is not an effective debate tactic, but you are living up to my expectations. Most gun nuts deny that the kits exist, always have, always will."

So you expect the world at large to accept whatever words happen to spring from your keyboard as "truth"? And anyone who doesn't is branded a "nut"? And you're lecturing others on debate technique?

[Raskolnik]

28. Urban legends are fun, aren't they?

So where do you think these conversion "kits" are being sold under the table? I don't doubt that you can find an ad in the back of of Soldier of Fortune or someone claiming that they will sell you such a "kit" if you send them $250, but that doesn't mean it actually happens with any regularity.

I'm certain that a skilled machinist with a good knowledge of firearms wouldn't find it impossible to convert some semi-automatic weapons to full-auto. The number of weapons in which that would actually increase, rather than decrease, the weapon's functionality is very small.

[tridim]

36. If a single weapon gets converted, it's too much.

NOBODY NEEDS A FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPON.

Thanks for verifying that conversion does indeed occur, your brothers are still lying about it.

[Raskolnik]

37. You're right, no one does need an automatic weapon, and very few people may

own one legally. The fact that crime comitted using fully automatic weapons (whether original full-auto or "converted") is vanashingly rare demonstrates that there really isn't a problem here at all.

If you believe that "kits" to convert semi-automatic weapons to full-auto are being sold "under the table" at gun shows, you are misinformed.

[tridim]

38. I've seen one with my own eyes.

See the post above.

[Raskolnik]

40. I'm sure you saw something that your friend of a friend who buys illegal weapons from coke dealers

was told was a "conversion kit" to make a weapon full-auto. You can also buy pills on the internet that are supposed to regrow your hair and make your dong twice as big. (Or is that make your hair twice as big and regrow your dong?)

[tridim]

43. The dude was a full fledged gun nut, why would he lie about it?

Are you saying he went out and bought some pinball machine parts to pretend he had a full-auto kit? :eyes:

[Raskolnik]

47. I'm not saying *he* lied about it. I'm saying that the person *selling* a "kit"

has reason to represent to the buyer that it is the easiest thing in the world to do, and works like a charm. When your friend got home and discovered that it wasn't quite as easy as the seller represented, what's he going to do? Go to the better business bureau?

If you had much experience with semi-automatic weapons, you'd know that it is not just a matter of filing down a pin here and adding a spring there, and even if you are able to convert a weapon to full-auto that was not designed for it, you would most likely find yourself with a much less useful weapon that will likely fall apart if you tried to use its full-auto capability with any regularity.

[Raskolnik]

48. And, as an addendum, if your friend of a friend was the kind of idiot

that bought guns from coke dealers, he was likely also the kind of idiot who thought it was cool to brag about having a fully-automatic machine gun, whether he had a functioning model or not.

[tridim]

50. He was definitely a bragger.

The worst kind of gun nut IMO.

I haven't told you about my current gun-nut co-worker yet. He owns several automatic weapons, not converted semi-autos. He brags too, but only because he knows guns don't give me a chubby. He's one of those people that believe Obama is going to confiscate his shotguns and .22's.

[Raskolnik]

51. I really don't mean to be rude, but your sources for this scourge of fully-auto weapons are...

less than credible, to put it charitably.

Again, if someone is the kind of idiot who brags about his guns to make someone uncomfortable, he's also probably the kind of idiot that would lie about having a fully automatic weapon.

[tridim]

52. It doesn't make me uncomfortable, it just makes me laugh..

At him.

For the record I have never seen my co-worker's automatics, but he sure talks about them a lot.

[Raskolnik]

53. Do you believe every loudmouth that brags about the model he slept with last weekend?

My advice is to suggest to said coworker that you seriously doubt his claims, for all the reasons people have given you here. At the end of the day, I would be willing to bet that this joker has a semi-automatic rifle that's been tricked out to look scary, and he's dicked with it just enough so that every once in a while he can get two or three rounds to fire with one pull of the trigger (at which point it jams, of course).

[pipoman]

86. OK, I'll say it...

you are misinformed and your friends are liars.

First possession of parts to convert or a converted fully auto are 10 year federal felonies.

Second conversion of a modern semi auto rifle of any make on the US market would require a machine shop and enough machine shop skills to produce a gun completely from scratch.

Third anyone who is willing to risk the punishment for owning or converting or selling the parts to convert has bad intentions and isn't simply looking for a thrill at the range. They are looking to commit crime with the illegal hardware. Yet, you can Google 'til your fingers fall off and can't find a single solitary instance of anyone committing a crime with such a gun in over 10 years. Think about that for a minute...how is this even possible if these illusive, kits are so widely available...not a report of someone being arrested with one of these in their possession, no bank robberies with one, no authorities, what so ever, claiming to have seized even one...amazing really isn't it?

Fourth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysf8x477c30

If you choose to educate yourself and watch this video you will hear the director of the ATFE, the LA police commissioner and a police firearms expert giving sworn testimony before government panels about this very topic. The armorer from LA testifying before the CA house that in all his years at LA and in over 50k firearms seized he has never seen a semi which had been converted to full auto and that semi auto conversion is a myth.

Here is the quote: Los Angeles Detective Jimmy Trahin testifying before the California State Assembly,"in my 12 years within the unit, considering the enormous amount of firearms we have taken into custody, and that's over 50,000 I would say, and these include ones from the hardcore gangs and the drug dealers, our unit has never, ever had one ak47 converted, one Ruger Mini 14 converted, an H&K 8193...never converted, an AR180 never converted, so this media blitz of these military style assault weapons being converted to fully automatic is not true."

The evidence contrary to the tripe you are professing is overwhelming, the evidence of your statements and assertions are nowhere to be found in this thread. Hopefully the open minded who read this thread can see which side of this discussion is worth believing and which is simply wives tales and talking points for the ill informed.

[jeepnstein]

59. Legal NFA stuff?

That's some pricey stuff. A RDIAS could go for several thousand.

If that's what he wants to spend his money on and they're all legal what's the big deal?

[DeadEyeDyck]

70. and of course you did your civic duty and had him arrested?

right.
And then you could post the police report for all of us to see how courageous you were.

I am so impressed!

[AtheistCrusader]

79. You care so much, why don't you get off your ass and call the cops?

I mean seriously. I'd turn in a blood relative that pulled that shit.

[Statistical]

56. Maybe he got scammed. Cash deal for some magic illegal parts. No honor among criminals (n/t)

[jeepnstein]

45. What did it look like?

[tridim]

49. A bag of springs, screws and pins, I think maybe a replacement trigger

And an instruction sheet showing how to install it.

Look, I know you're trying to get to me slip up, it isn't going to work. I saw what I saw, and there was no reason for the dude to lie about it. He was very proud of his purchase.

[jeepnstein]

55. Your buddy got ripped off.

There's way more to it than changing a few pins and screws. But of course you already knew that, didn't you? Has he gone to prison yet?

[Statistical]

57. I once got this email from a deposed prince in Nigeria.....

I saw it with my own eyes. It must be real.
He has $20 million that he needs to get out of the country and if I give him my bank account he will give me a finders fee.

Pretty good scam.
1) Take $10 worth of springs, pins, and other technically looking junk in a bag.
2) Sell for $200+ at a gunshow.
3) What is someone going to do, turn you in for selling fake illegal conversion kits?

If such kits existed wouldn't crimes committed with automatic weapons be off the charts?

[AtheistCrusader]

81. Hahaahaaa

Your friend bought a bag of pinball machine parts.

He's a moron, and you're more than a little gullible for believing him. Also, I want to know why you didn't call the cops if you really believed you witnessed a felony.

[Taitertots]

74. You need to know the secret

Hand shake.

You point your hand like a gun at them. They point back a gun. The two hands engage, bumping knuckles with index fingers still forward. Then you drop the thumb hammers and say
You "Second"
Dealer "Amendment"
You "Second"
Dealer "Amendment"
You "hoo"
Dealer "yeah"

Then you do the one armed hug, still keeping the knuckles bumped, making sure to bump the back twice.

[yay]

83. "but I really question automatic weapons on the US market."

Did you know, that since 1934 there have only been 3-4(Exact number slips my mind) instances where a legally owned and registered full automatic firearm has been used in a crime? One of said instances was a police officer with a MAC 11. you'd think that if it were such a problem we'd have more than a handful of instances in the last 75 years.

Face it the Hughes amendment of the 1986 FOPA has done squat. It sure as hasn't deterred the amount of illegal full auto firearms.

[iverglas]

3. can't say as I know how my internal combustion engine works

but I sure do know what a reasonable speed limit is, and what a good idea seat belts are, and how foolish it would be to let people drive around in unidentified vehicles without insurance and without having passed some tests and maintaining their eligibility ...

[TheWraith]

10. But would you feel qualified to start banning cars based on their engine specs?

This thread was started because someone arguing in the AWB thread in favor of banning all semi-automatic weapons didn't even understand that a revolver is also semi-automatic and doesn't need to be cocked before every shot.

[iverglas]

16. how about based on their hood ornaments

and the size of their tail fins? Their lack of seat belts? tail lights? turn signals?

Lots more to a car than an engine, friend.

[Statistical]

21. Or using "logic" like

Almost all DUI involve a car with fuel injection.

If we ban fuel injection (go back to carburetors) then there will be less DUI deaths*

[iverglas]

24. "logic"?

Doesn't sound much like logic to me.

You must like it though, since you're the one offering it.

[TheWraith]

75. Hood ornaments and tailfins are right.

The Assault Weapons Ban was based pretty much entirely on cosmetic functions like bayonet lugs, pistol grips, etcetera. But the engine is all the same.

[Raskolnik]

22. And if you started arguing for legislation to outlaw scary-looking engines

that *look* like they could go much faster than other engines, you'd be fool.

[iverglas]

27. as I was just saying

You adherents of this repeated "scarey-looking <whatever>" meme actually seem to think you are making someone else look silly.

Check the mirror, friend.

[Raskolnik]

30. Yes, banning something because it is scary-looking is silly, isn't it?

I'm glad we agree.

[iverglas]

34. your mother needs new army boots

These are getting tired and worn.

[Raskolnik]

35. Why the unpleasantness, iverglas? You appear to agree with me on this issue.

Advocating the ban of something for cosmetic reasons, i.e. because it is "scary-looking," is silly, particularly when the person doesn't even understand how the item in question functions. I don't know how you can possibly argue with that, but if you do, feel free to explain why.

[iverglas]

41. argue with it?

I don't believe you've ever noticed me arguing with elephant poop.

[Raskolnik]

42. You can't even bring yourself to agree with a simple, common-sense position

like that? Now, the argument would remain whether the AWB was actually addressing cosmetic, i.e. "scary looking" features rather than actual functionality, but that's phase II.

Are you really telling me that you can't agree with the proposition that it is silly to ban something based upon cosmetic, i.e. "scary looking" features? I would hope that you are not so reflexively opposed to anything I say that you must respond to "up" with "down" and "black" with "white."

[AtheistCrusader]

82. I'll bite.

None of the features listed are cosmetic. It is disingeniuous to claim so.

Flash suppressors protect the shooters vision.
Collapsable stocks allow adjustment of the weapon length for comfort and safety.
Bayonet lugs are attachment hardpoints for flashlights, and other accessories
A pistol grip is ergonomically more comfortable.
A detachable magazine allows for larger capacity magazines, and marginally quicker reloads.

All of these features used to restrict weapons in the 1994 AWB have distinct, real purposes. They are not costmetic. Most do not increase the 'lethality' of the weapon, or enable criminal behavior, beyond the possible misuse of large capacity ammunition feeding devices. That does not make them cosmetic.

I agree with your point, they are largely IRRELEVANT when considering possible illegal use of these weapons, but calling them cosmetic distracts from constructive discussion. I am guilt of this myself.

[tisfortomi]

93. Awed. Dazzled. Stunned to silence.

"I don't believe you've ever noticed me arguing with elephant poop."

Now that's some elegant discourse right there.

[tridim]

5. .22 caliber single shot "Aliens" pulse rifles for everyone!

I didn't know gun-nuts were so vain, until now.

[yay]

85. Are you kidding?

That's just the start man. Have you seen the amount of crap people have bolted onto their AR-15's? I swear I wouldn't be surprised to see a battery powered picitiny rail mounted toaster.... All in the name of tacti-cool.

But in today's materialist world you would be hard pressed to find a group of consumers that ISN'T vain.

[Vinnie From Indy]

7. One doesn;t need to know how a clock works to tell you what time it is

You are advancing a very weak argument. The fact is that the issue of sane gun laws has very little to do with the operational aspects of guns and much more to do with EFFECTS of guns on our society. Really, who gives a crap what kind of gun sends a person to the emergency room or the morgue?

[NightWatcher]

11. I agree completely with what you are saying

I am addressing the fact that most weapons that fall under the AWB are merely scary looking guns. Shotguns put tons of people in morgues and ER's. Attempting to go after "scary looking guns" simply adds merit to the pro-gun repukes that the Dems are after their guns. They firmly believe that the assault weapons will be first, followed by handguns, and ultimately concluding with hunting rifles, shotguns, and pointy sticks in their yards. I think that gun control needs to be addressed, but more from a "treatment model" of why people use guns, how they get them illegaly, and why they are using them. How many guns are used to facillitate the drug trade? Why not address the drug problem in a way other than declaring war on it. When we declare war on something it often projects and predicts a violent response.

Going after "scary looking guns" those with muzzle flash suppressors and pistol grips and long magazines covered under the AWB gives ammo to those who think that ignorant city folk and politicians who dont understand their way of life are coming for their guns. It doesnt help us get other things accomplished by stratifying and alligning the reich wing and the pro-gunners in a time when the right is so confused and flailing about.

[iverglas]

17. the funny thing here is

that the adherents of the repeated meme "scary looking guns" think that when they say it they're making somebody else look silly.

[Mugweed]

13. Flame bait?

I assume you've decided that gun control = anti gun. The 2nd Amendment didn't specify which arms you have the right to bear. If the government wants to limit which arms the average citizen can tote around, they aren't violating your rights as long as you still have a selection of firearms available for private citizens to own and bear. That's not an opinion; it's a fact that seems to be conveniently ignored by "gun freaks" (if we need to create labels). Any claims to the contrary are ignorant.

[appal_jack]

19. this deserves a flame...

"I assume you've decided that censorship = anti speech. The 1st Amendment didn't specify which words you have the right to speak. If the government wants to limit which words the average citizen can sling around, they aren't violating your rights as long as you still have a selection of words available for private citizens to think and speak. That's not an opinion; it's a fact that seems to be conveniently ignored by "speech freaks" (if we need to create labels). Any claims to the contrary are ignorant."

I think that the above statement about the first Amendment is 100% unconstitutional bullshit. I also think that your statement using these very words about the 2nd Amendment is similar. The Second Amendment protects citizens rights to keep and bear arms, with the long-standing limits that the unfettered right generally applies to personally bear-able arms (i.e. - no crew served weapons like howitzers or nukes) that hit a single target per pull of the trigger (i.e.- full-auto is restricted by the NFA).

I can live with this robust if circumscribed interpretation of one of our inalienable rights. Can you?

-app

spelling edit

[Mugweed]

26. The 1st Amendment does have "word control"

I believe that the age-old "yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater" shows that there is some speech that you don't have a right to. Inciting a riot, or simply expressing the opinion that the former President should be shot, are also "words" that are controlled without it violating your 1st Amendment right. That wasn't that great of an analogy.

[appal_jack]

46. And we already have gun control: my analogy stands

"Yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater" (if there is in fact no fire) is a criminal action designed to hurt or kill many innocent victims. Similarly, convicted criminals already cannot legally own firearms, nor is it legal for anyone to employ a firearm to hurt or kill innocent victims. Additionally, the NFA of 1934 restricted fully automatic weapons. Plus, there are hundreds of other gun control laws on the books.

An AWB will not improve public safety, but it would unnecessarily further erode our liberty and provoke a massive backlash. Smart politicians will let that sleeping dog lie.

-app

[Mugweed]

66. Assault weapons are designed to hurt or kill many victims, too.

The idea of "innocent" is in the eye of the beholder. One man's resistance army is another man's terrorists.

Who is to say that an AWB isn't part of the well-regulation of the militia? Sounds like a regulation to me.

As to the "massive backlash", the NRA and their propaganda didn't stop Obama from being elected President. So bring on that backlash from the overly-vocal minority.

[ManiacJoe]

68. You seem confused about what an "assault weapon" is.

The common definitions of "assault weapon" usually come down to trying to describe "ergonomic semi-auto carbines". The problem is that there is nothing special about the weapons that fail into that artificial definition. There is nothing special about stock shapes, ergonomic or not. There is nothing special about semi-auto actions (100 year old technology). There is nothing special about relatively light, relatively short rifles and shotguns. Put all of these features together and you still have nothing special about the weapon. Thus you do not need any new legislation that tries to make them artificially special and restricted.

[jmg257]

72. Everyone with at least 1/2 brain will say an AWB isn't part of "well-regulated". Almost the exact

opposite.

"Well-regulated" means well armed and well trained, which equals effective. How effective would a militia be if they (we) had to carry sub-par arms into battle? Not very. So we wouldn't be too effective at securing our freedoms. "Standard military arms in common use" would be a big part of "well-regulated", along with evolutions in their use, good organization, discipline, etc.

[appal_jack]

87. Obama was elected in part thanks to pro-2A Democrats

Obama was elected in part thanks to pro-2A Democrats who (myself included) chose to elevate other important issues (jobs, economic recovery, environmental protection, restoration of Habeus Corpus, a saner foreign policy, etc.) over RKBA issues. My vote for Obama was not a waiver of the Second Amendment, it was simply a choice of the best man for the job, even if his stated views on RKBA are flawed.

I support Obama as my President, but I reserve all the rights of a citizen to question, challenge, and correct my government when it errs.

-app

[Taitertots]

89. Truer words seldom spoken

Some people forget that lots of Democrats own guns too.

[Abq_Sarah]

80. I've never understood people

Who pretend the bill of rights is a gift from a benevolent government to its subjects. Isn't the government nice? Look, they're allowing us to keep .22's to keep the vermin population down!

The 2nd amendment does not grant government any rights. It is an individual right, much like your freedom of speech or freedom of religion, etc..

[nykym]

15. Basically

Guns are just like nukes - really how many times over do you need to kill something?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. Huh?

[Raskolnik]

33. Twice? No, wait...once? Damn...is this a trick question? n/t

[benEzra]

65. Yeah, non-automatic civilian small arms are JUST like nukes.

Guns are just like nukes - really how many times over do you need to kill something?

Yeah, non-automatic civilian small arms are JUST like nukes.

And Hiroshima was destroyed by a single shot from a small-caliber civilian rifle with a black plastic stock. Yup, I follow you.

:eyes:

[dashrif]

88. Right

Your not far off Hiroshima was destroyed by a single shot single use gun called little boy, but that is the end of the likeness.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Little_Boy_Internal_Components.png

[DrCory]

67. Oh My!

I had no idea that my Land Service Musket (original, and named to the King's German Legion) was as lethal as an SS-20. Now I'm scared to go home! :scared:

[jmg257]

73. Except for the MASSIVE explosion, the heat , and all the radioactive fallout, they are

indistinguishable.

Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and a high power rifle competetion...so similiar its scary!

:scared:

:silly:

[spin]

90. "Guns are just like nukes"???...

I can take my firearms to the range and punch holes in paper targets. Nothing dies.

The military target practices with a number of explosive weapons and warheads up to and including the MOAB (the Massive Ordnance Air Blast aka Mother of ALL Bombs). Again nothing dies.

Nobody target practices with nuclear warheads anymore. The aftereffects tend to kill people.

[chrisa]

91. Why delete?

What you said is true. People have such stupid and wrong ideas about guns, it's scary. They literally think that 200 round machine guns fall into this ban, and if we don't reinstate it, people will be running around with those and rocket launchers.