Mother Jones: Your Prius' Deepest, Darkest Secret (Rare Earths)

[OKIsItJustMe]

http://motherjones.com/blue-marble/2011/10/rare-earths-prius-molycorp

→ Energy, Environment, Tech, Top Stories

Your Prius' Deepest, Darkest Secret

—By Kiera Butler | Mon Nov. 14, 2011 2:30 AM PST

So you're considering buying a hybrid car. Or maybe you already have. Good for you! You're saving a bundle on gas and reducing your environmental footprint at the same time. But fuel isn't the only natural resource that your car requires. Its motor also contains a small amount of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium">neodymium, one of 17 elements listed at the very bottom of the periodic table. Known as the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earth_element">rare earths, these minerals are key to all kinds of green technology: Neodymium magnets turn wind turbines. Cerium helps reduce tailpipe emissions. Yttrium can form phosphors that make light in LED displays and compact fluorescent lightbulbs. Hybrid and electric cars often contain as many as eight different rare earths.

…

For the last few decades, China controlled the world's market for rare earths, producing about 97 percent of the global supply. But in late 2010, China http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-28/china-cuts-first-round-rare-earth-export-quotas-by-11-correct-.html">cut its exports by 35 percent in order to keep the valuable metals for its own manufacturers. The prices of rare earths rose almost immediately. Fearing a shortage, US legislators sprang into action. This past April, Rep. Mike Coffman (R-Colo.) introduced a http://coffman.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=436&Itemid=10">bill that would kick-start a domestic rare-earths renaissance in the United States.


A few rare-earths mines are slated to open in the United States in the next few years, the most hyped of which is a facility called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_rare_earth_mine">Mountain Pass in California's Mojave Desert. (It's actually been around off and on since the '50s, but a company called http://www.molycorp.com/">Molycorp has given it a major makeover.) When it's running at full capacity, Mountain Pass will be the largest rare-earths mine in the world, producing upwards of 40,000 tons of the stuff every year.

…

But no matter how quickly new mines open, the United States won't be able to produce enough rare earths on its own—it's thought that North America contains only 15 percent of the world's supply. A recent Congressional Research Service report (https://motherjones.com/files/crs_rare_earths_report_0.pdf">PDF) recommended that the US seek reliable sources in other countries.

…

[Fumesucker]

1. It is possible to make high efficiency electric motors without magnets..

They do tend to need a more complex and costly electronic drive package though..

The Tesla Roadster for instance has a three phase induction motor that uses no magnets, the basic design was originally patented by Tesla in 1888.

[HopeHoops]

2. Don't induction motors require a lot more power (as in shorter battery life)?

[Fumesucker]

5. There are tradeoffs, the induction motor can be made more efficient on average..

The permanent magnet motor has a higher peak efficiency.

The differences in a well designed motor/controller system aren't that great, a few percent.

But the induction motor controller is significantly more intelligent, its job is more difficult and requires more computing horsepower. That's not really such a major constraint any more, computer power is getting cheaper all the time.

[HopeHoops]

8. I think you can make a 2-phase one also, but I believe that involves a pretty big-ass capacitor.

I'm not sure that's going to be so Earth-friendly, but it is probably more efficient (again, battery life). If they can't get the electric/hybrid vehicles to run 1000 miles on a charge or at least have swap stations (like LP cages), the things are never going to make it as a replacement for gasoline engines. Charging stations are fine if you can just park there and walk the rest of the way to work, but that's not going to fly for most people. Swap-out would probably work if it was implemented nation-wide in the same way McDonalds is.

I get 26 mpg in a 2000 Montana minivan that seats eight. From an economic standpoint, that's not bad at all. I can put 4x8 sheets of plywood in the thing. Most pickup beds are only 7' long (if that). I'm all for EVs, but the technology and infrastructure just isn't close to "there" yet. And hell, I can't even put up a windmill because I'm 0.08 acres short on my lot. Fuck. They make these REALLY cool windmills in a double-helix form (bird-friendly) but our township requires 1/2 acre to install one. The things are silent. They're visually innocuous, so what's the problem?

:grr:
:rant:

[Fumesucker]

9. There are other designs..

A switched reluctance motor needs no magnets, neither does a variable reluctance motor.

A parallel path motor uses magnets but gets about three times the force per magnet as a straight PM motor so it uses less magnetic material.

There are motor designs with more than three phases also, seven phases is not particularly uncommon.

Battery technology is really the only limitation to EV's at the moment, the motor and electronic packages are reasonably mature.

A battery with a replaceable electrolyte could act very much like a gasoline vehicle, you would plug in a dual hose that would suck out the used electrolyte while filling the fresh tank.

[HopeHoops]

10. I've heard of that but don't know much about it. Still, the charge time would be an issue.

Face it - gas is convenient. I remember when diesel pumps were hard to find other than at truck stops. It's a pretty common fixture now. Non-taxed (non-colored heating) kerosene is available pretty readily also, but there was a time when it wasn't. I think the industry needs to come together and decide on a standard, at least for the short-term (as in 20 years) and just fucking implement it. Get us out of our dependency on oil.

My fear? They'll decide on something even worse than oil.

[Fumesucker]

11. No, a replaceable electrolyte is charged outside the vehicle..

At the filling station, or you can plug the car in and recharge the electrolyte at home in the car, you'll only need to change the electrolyte when you travel longer distances.

Wouldn't take any longer than filling up with gas, just a bit different apparatus.

I think the world is on the path to a decentralized and sustainable energy system, I just hope we can get there before things collapse completely.

[HopeHoops]

12. Sounds good, but availability (convenience) and range are still a major problem.

I still think the industry needs to just set a fucking standard for now. Otherwise they really are pissing in the wind.

[Fumesucker]

14. Setting a standard prematurely would be as bad as waiting too long..

The technology is quite there yet but it's getting closer almost by the day.

[HopeHoops]

15. I know - tough call. But if they don't set a standard (good or bad), it won't work.

Consider file formats. The only REALLY universal text format is RTF. Hell, MS Word can't even translate documents from 2 of its own versions ago. Star Office (Open Office now) has always been able to handle any version of MS Word or Excel. Disc format standards are another. IBM set the standard (other than Apple and Commodore), but Linux and contemporary Mac OSs can deal with various versions of it. USB sticks and camera memory cards pretty much work in everything. Are they good? Are they the best possible? Probably not. They simply work.

As with other "standards", as long as they can figure out a migration path and a way to handle legacy equipment, they will do fine. They just need to fucking settle on one! What gas station owner is going to put in place six different charging station/replacement options? They have enough trouble finding space for three grades of gasoline.

[kristopher]

20. There is a standard for EVs.

The entire auto industry is moving to battery electric as the primary mover in in the personal transport sector, not by mandate, but because of energy economics. Within that industry trere are all kinds of standards for charging systems etc.

Every automaker is now rolling out multiple lines of electric vehicles. This is a done deal.

[HopeHoops]

21. Until it becomes as easy as filling a gas tank, and the prices come down, it is just a niche.

Again, I'm all in favor of it, but convenience is a requisite feature.

[kristopher]

25. Yes, a niche. That's why ALL MAKERS ARE ROLLING OUT MULTIPLE EV LINES.

You know, it could be that your understanding of the dynamics of energy in transportation is missing a few pieces, no?

[OKIsItJustMe]

31. Or, it could be marketing

Toyota gained a reputation for being “green” thanks to the Prius™ (and in spite of the Tundra™, which, http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+june+2011+sales.htm">according to Toyota, outsells the Prius™.)

The Prius™ hybrid got a lot of “buzz” and so a number of manufacturers felt they had to market a “me too!” hybrid. However, the Prius™ continues to outsell all its competitors combined. (i.e. the Prius™ owns more than half of the hybrid market.)

So, the “buzz” product for tomorrow may be a battery electric vehicle, with a lot of “me too!” products appearing as a result.

Or maybe it’s a true revolution. (Time will tell.)

[HopeHoops]

34. They at least could have made the Prius more attractive - it's an ugly piece of shit.

But to be fair, there have been very few cars with any distinctive "class" in styling since the early 70's.

[OKIsItJustMe]

37. Aerodynamics

Once manufacturers started thinking about aerodynamics, car bodies naturally gravitated toward the same shape. (Aerodynamic principles apply equally to all makes and models.)

Consider what happened to the Chevy Volt™ “concept car” once it got an aerodynamic workover…

[HopeHoops]

40. Most of today's cars all look the same. Frankly, I have to blame Ford for that.

Remember when the Tempo came out in the early 80's? Everyone laughed at it because it wasn't a tissue box with wheels. Now EVERYTHING looks like that.

[OKIsItJustMe]

45. As I said, aerodynamics

Essentially anything which you might call distinctive styling is liable to disrupt the airflow, decreasing the fuel efficiency of the car.

[HopeHoops]

46. True. That was the idea. A tissue box isn't at ALL aerodynamic. But style can still be included.

Take the Viper, Mustang, Camero, and Challenger for example (new versions of them). Sure they aren't quite as stylish as their predecessors (Viper excepted), and they all are gas guzzling monsters, but they do have style. The Prowler was unique. It was put together from off-the-shelf parts and based on a concept car from an auto show, but it held up better in crash tests than most of the other vehicles in its class (nobody expected that) and wasn't a gas hog. It was just too fucking expensive.

[HopeHoops]

33. More power to them (pun NOT intended), but it still takes infrastructure that isn't in place.

[kristopher]

35. You have it exactly backwards. 99% of the "fueling" infrastructure for EVs is in place.

The distribution infrastructure problem resides with hydrogen. It would have to be built from the ground up. Electric charging is a "last mile infrastructure" task. Although in most cases it is more like "last 50 feet".

[HopeHoops]

39. For charging, sure - but unless you're stopping for a REALLY long lunch....

[kristopher]

41. You are going in circles, apparently just to object for the sake of objecting.

If your objection is an occasional range issue, the solution is the series hybrid. It reduces petroleum consumption by more than 90% in most cases.

If your objection is infrastructure, you are simply wrong; that applies to hydrogen, not electricity.

[HopeHoops]

42. The only problem with electricity is charge time (range keeps improving).

I'd love to see swap-n-go fuel cells similar to the Blue Rhino (and other brands) LP tanks at grocery and convenience stores. If those were in place, or at least something that stores would want to put in place, the gasoline industry would probably be in major trouble. It's a fair bet they're doing whatever they can to suppress such technologies, but they'll fail in the long run. It's no secret that they've spent unthinkable amounts to buy patents for solar and wind technologies just to sit on them.

[kristopher]

43. That is crackpot woo woo.

[HopeHoops]

44. So if you're out in the middle of East Bumfuck and your battery goes dead on a road trip, you...

(forget hybrids for now - they're a good intermediate step but not a long-term solution)

... do what? If my laptop battery goes dead, I can just swap it out for a charged one. Granted I can usually do without a computer for hours at a pop and that's profoundly different from being stranded in a car, but would you want to be tethered to an electric outlet for hours? Charging stations (pay as you go) are popping up, but they still take time.

The other and perhaps most serious obstacles to EV technology are cost and battery life. Toyota has already been slammed for how short the batteries live (not charge, overall service life). The cars are fucking expensive for their size and that's not an easy issue to solve. Volume of sales is pretty closely tied to cost.

You can call it "crackpot :woohoo:" if you want, but these are serious problems that need to be addressed if we're ever going to get off of the big oil tit. I'd love to live long enough to see EVs as the standard and gasoline a become difficult to come by - and I've got a '68 Galaxie fastback so that would have a seriously negative impact on me personally. But for the health of the planet, and in the interest of our national stability, making gasoline obsolete makes sense.

On a slightly related note, it was just recently that the cell phone industry accepted micro-USB as the standard for chargers (there were at least 30 connectors before that - multiple per manufacturer) and laptop batteries are STILL a pain in the ass because they're so dependent on the model (as are the chargers). Both are problems that I expected they would solve over ten years ago. That was apparently wishful thinking.

[OKIsItJustMe]

24. Many automakers are also working on FCEV’s

Here’s Toyota’s case for them

http://www.toyota.com/esq/pdf/Toyota_NHA_keynote_2010.pdf

[kristopher]

26. Your charts are not an analysis they are a sales pitch.

Fuel cells only work with continued reliance on hydrocarbon fuels. They improve efficiency, but they are still reliant on hydrocarbons.

All makers are moving full speed into battery EVs for a reason.

[OKIsItJustMe]

28. (Toyota’s charts you mean.) How many companies are marketting a car with a range > 200 Miles?

Anyone? (Other than Tesla?)

Given the jump Toyota has on other manufacturers (with the Prius) don’t you think it seems rather odd that they would be marketing FCEV’s with no cause. (Perhaps they feel there is good reason?)

[kristopher]

29. Do you understand the difference between a series hybrid and a parallel hybrid?

The Prius is a parallel hybrid - it is a design that failed, just as the fuel cell concept has failed. The series hybrids are capable of satisfying long range needs, which is very infrequent for most drivers. They operate mostly on full electric which is provided at their home. It isn't the gasoline model, but it doesn't have to be to work and it *is* a system that works - no matter how much that is driving you to distraction.

ALL MAKERS ARE ROLLING OUT MULTIPLE LINES OF BATTERY ELECTRIC VEHICLES FOR A REASON - IT WORKS.

[OKIsItJustMe]

30. Strangely enough, I do understand the difference between parallel and series hybrids

Try this quick search “OKIsItJustMe Series OR Serial AND Parallel hybrid”

I have said (since I saw my first Prius™) that it was a “very good implementation of a questionable technology.”

We’ll see how series/serial hybrids make out in comparison.


Never-the-less, Toyota has name recognition, and better than half of the hybrid market. If the BEV concept is so clearly superior, why isn’t Toyota marketing one today? (I mean, clearly, they have electric motors and batteries, otherwise they couldn’t manufacture a Prius™. Right?)
http://www.toyota.com/concept-vehicles/ftev.html


Oh, and about those bazillions of BEV’s on the market: Did you mention how many of them have a range > 200 Miles?

[OKIsItJustMe]

32. Leading indicators?

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/11/us-midsize-car-sales-figures-october.html">Sales figures for October of 2011:

Nissan LEAF          849  |  Nissan Altima     21,838
Chevrolet Volt     1,108  |  Chevrolet Malibu  10,239
Toyota Prius      11,008  |  Toyota Camry      22,043

Now, let’s be fair, the Nisan LEAF™ and Chevy Volt™ are newcomers, but the Toyota Prius™ is outselling them 10 to 1.

[kristopher]

36. No.

[OKIsItJustMe]

38. Care to expand upon that?

(Just wondering…)

[happyslug]

48. Not quite true, they are auto makers still holding out for what they consider superior technology

VW is the biggest advocate of the main alternative to Electric Cars, This was seen in the Lupo 3l, the first car to go 100 Kilometers with one liter of gasoline (It outdid the Prius). This was a car design to maximize fuel efficiency by doing things like turning off the engine automatically when the engine was NOT needed (and this WITHOUT the having to carry the extra weight of Electric Motors and Batteries).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Lupo

VW also did the L1 Concept car, which obtain 235 mpg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car

Now, these were aimed at the Compact and smaller car markets, which are noted to be the most price sensitive (i.e. people will opt for a different make and model just to save a couple of dollars, unlike larger cars where people want a particular make and model and even if a different make and model does everything better, they still buy what they wanted). People purchased the Lupo in Europe, but its high price compared to other compact cars turned a lot of people away from it. A different model with more conventional construction was introduced in 2005 to meet the compact/city car market, less fuel economy but lower price.

In more recent years VW has opt for the electric car route, for that is what people are buying at a premium price. This can be seen in its latest XL1 concept car. It is still a very small diesel with a six speed transmission but can be assisted with its electric motor. The electric Motor and batteries is VW admitting that Hybrids are what is in style today and thus this is they attempt to fill that market. On the other hand, VW seems to be committed to the concept of high fuel efficient cars using smaller and lighter engines and transmissions even at the cost of lower performance. A Car that will get you from your home to your place of work, at normal highway speeds, but will take a lot longer to get up to those speeds and will slow down considerably uphills.

This concept, of a very fuel efficient car with no excess power is what VW thinks will be the car of the 21st century. It will cost about the same as a Hybrid does today but in similar size vehicles will beat out the Hybrid do to the fact it does NOT have to carry around the extra weight of the electric motors and batteries. At the same time it will make it up and down steep hills, but at no were near the speeds of today's car or of hybrids.

Do NOT be mistaken by what is the latest style that that fad will be the wave of the Future. It might while be, but the alternative, a "conventional" car, but one design to operate with the smallest and most efficient engine and transmission possible on the lightest most fuel efficient body is a good alternative. I suspect BOTH will be used over the next 50 years as the price of Gasoline goes through the roof. Lupo/XL1 type cars by those people who need a car that has to be refilled just like conventional cars today. Electric Cars for those people who can afford to wait to recharge their cars batteries.

As to Hybrids, I seem them slowly take over the Trucking industry. Mostly do to the ability to use over head wires to recharge their batteries. Sooner or later (and I suspect later, about 2030) oil prices will be so high truckers will complain and accept additional fees imposed on them to electrify the interstate highway system. Such wires will permit Trucks to use electricity from such overhead wires to recharge their batteries (Fee would be set by some sort of regulator that can be feed back to a central computer to send out a bill). When the Truck has to get off the interstates or other major Highway, convert to Hybrid mood. This minimize fuel use by Truckers, yet retain trucks ability to go almost anywhere.

This Mix of vehicles permit each type of Vehicle to do its best in a high oil price era. I suspect the over head wires for Trucks will start in the Mountains first, for the simple reason such wires can feed more and more power to the electric motors that will be providing the power to propel the truck down the road. We may even see a time when it would be rare for truckers to even have to slow down for long uphill hill climbs (Electric Motors can provide more and more power to the wheels as long as the electric motor has access to electricity, overhead wires will eliminate the restriction on such power seen in trucks today).

Yes, it will be a mix, but one where the Hybrid will be marginalized over time, replaced by Lupo high efficiency cars OR 100% electric drive cars, not one or the other (and if I had to choose, I would pick the Lupo type car, for the same reason the Electric car died out right after WWII, the people who can use an electric car, can also use a Lupo type car, but a person who needs a Lupo type car, i.e. needs to fill up and go, can NOT opt for an electric car. This problem was "solved" by all the auto makers opting for gasoline cars in the 1920s, leaving the electric car behind. Thus the Lupo type car (Even if it has to use bio-diesel will prevail, not at first but over the long haul).

[OKIsItJustMe]

17. “run 1000 miles on a charge”

I think you can pretty much write that off.

The essential facts are these:

• A longer range requires a larger storage capacity.
• A larger storage capacity requires a larger battery pack.
• A larger battery pack means more mass to move around
  The Tesla Roadster’s battery pack has a mass of “http://www.teslamotors.com/display_data/TeslaRoadsterBatterySystem.pdf">about 450 kg.” (In 2009) a replacement was said (by Elon Musk) to cost “http://www.autoobserver.com/2009/02/tesla-battery-pack-replacement-would-be-36000-today-musk-says.html">about $36,000.”
• More mass, means you need more power to move it, and a loss in efficiency
• Greater power requirements, means you need larger storage capacity
• …

[HopeHoops]

18. The original Star Trek series had communicators that were "impossible".

The original Motorola cell phone looked just like the Star Trek communicators. Impossible is relative to the technology and the volume of sales. You can buy a "pay as you go" phone for $15 at any drug store. I agree with your assessment, but a standard is still needed. VHS/BetaMax for example?

[OKIsItJustMe]

47. It also had warp drive engines and “transporters”

Just because we have something that superficially resembles a communicator doesn’t mean that anything is possible.

[jberryhill]

49. ...and hot green chicks

[OKIsItJustMe]

3. Yes, it’s possible, but…

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-28/rare-earths-fall-as-toyota-develops-alternatives-commodities.html

Rare Earths Fall as Toyota Develops Alternatives: Commodities

By Sonja Elmquist - Wed Sep 28 23:00:01 GMT 2011

Rare-earth prices are set to extend their decline from records this year as buyers including Toyota Motor Corp. (7203) and General Electric Co. (GE) scale back using the materials in their cars and windmills.

…

Makers of electric cars, wind turbines and oil-refining catalysts have sought to reduce use of the metals after China, which supplies more than 90 percent of the market, said in July 2010 that it would cut exports and clamp down on the industry. That boosted prices, encouraging mining companies to develop new prospects and buyers to find alternatives.

“If you think you can keep raising the prices for those materials and still keep your customers, you’re crazy,” Jack Lifton, co-founder of Technology Metals Research, said in a telephone interview. “The principal customer for rare-earth metals is a global automotive industry using rare-earth permanent magnets. That industry will engineer this stuff out.”

…

“The magnets are like God’s gift to electric motors,” Pete Savagian, GM’s chief engineer for electric motors, said in a telephone interview. “But we don’t always need that level of magnet. Even at prices we saw three and four years ago, there’s a more economic alternative, albeit at slightly less efficient outcome.”

…

[Kolesar]

4. A response in 14 minutes, very impressive

There was a good article on "rare earth" minerals in the May 2011 issue of National Geographic.

[OKIsItJustMe]

6. The USGS recently did a valuable survey of domestic reserves

http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2010/5220

[Fumesucker]

7. You made my point..

If there are alternatives then people will use them when the alternative is of lower cost than rare earth magnets.

Keep in mind Tesla started on that design quite some time ago, it's by no means new.

ETA: I meant Tesla the company on the Roadster motor.

[OKIsItJustMe]

13. I wasn’t trying to contradict you

There are alternatives, however, there are tradeoffs.

A choice between alternatives almost always implies tradeoffs. In this case, the alternatives mean increased complexity and decreased efficiency, but a lower dependence on rare earths.

[Fumesucker]

16. I mentioned as much in my post #5..

Although efficiency is a more complex issue, Tesla motors went with an induction motor for its efficiency over a wide operating range, a PM motor tends to have a higher peak efficiency but operating out of fairly narrow operating range its efficiency drops..

It's also harder to make an induction motor as small as a PM motor, they tend to be a bit bigger and heavier.

It may not come as a surprise to you that a regular car alternator can make a fairly decent three phase motor without using any magnets.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=31584&p=458099&hilit=altermotor#p458099

[OKIsItJustMe]

19. (As I said)

I wasn’t trying to contradict you.

The fact remains that manufacturers took the route they did for a number of factors. One of those factors (price for rare earth magnets) has changed, so, they may change their approach.

However, that will not happen overnight, it’s not going to be a matter of simply installing a different motor. A number of things will require reengineering as a result.

[Fumesucker]

22. If you are using a three phase induction to replace a three phase PM motor..

You should be able to just swap the electronics package and the motor and maybe a few sensor wires, the main current carrying wires should stay the same.

Assuming you can engineer the two motors into the same form factor which may or may not be doable.

[Marblehead]

23. air car

runs on compressed air, no magnets.

[OKIsItJustMe]

27. However, they’ve got some serious drawbacks

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1748-9326/4/4/044011/erl9_4_044011.html

Environ. Res. Lett. 4 (October-December 2009) 044011
doi:10.1088/1748-9326/4/4/044011

Economic and environmental evaluation of compressed-air cars

…

7. Conclusion

The compressed-air car should be regarded as a car similar to the common BEV, powered by electricity from the grid but different in storage technology. In principle, compressed-air cars could compete with BEVs in substituting for gasoline cars. The life-cycle analysis of the compressed-air car, however, showed that the CAC fared worse than the BEV in primary energy required, GHG emissions, and life-cycle costs, even under our very optimistic assumptions about performance. Compressed-air energy storage is a relatively inefficient technology at the scale of individual cars and would add additional greenhouse gas emissions with the current electricity mix. In fact, the BEV outperforms the compressed-air car in every category. Uncertainty in technology specifications is considerably higher for CACs than for BEVs, adding a risk premium. We provide a transparent spreadsheet model that can be used to replicate results or experiment with other values.

A hybrid concept, where the air tank is recharged with an internal combustion engine, is more efficient but has yet not been experimentally verified. However, a pneumatic–combustion hybrid is similar to the hybrid electric vehicle in concept and efficiency gain, offers potential cost and weight advantages and is closest to implementation.

Overall, the CAC does not appear to offer any advantage over purely electrical means of storing energy on board a vehicle. Batteries are common and improving almost daily, while the compressed-air cycle has no present role in any popular automobile platform. Since there are great pressures on battery performance from other applications such as cell phones, it is hard to imagine that CAC will gain an advantage over BEV in the foreseeable future. Automobiles must become lighter and more efficient if even the best batteries are to provide longer autonomous ranges. At the same time, combustion technology itself is evolving rapidly in the face of concerns about oil and climate change. As long as there are no substantial innovations in compressed-air technology and its deployment, the real progress in this sector may be the emphasis on light materials and small car design, for which the competition between batteries and fuel will just intensify.

…

[madokie]

50. I've watched that video of the compressed air car

a half dozen times and I don't think what they're saying in the video holds water. I'd have to go back and watch it again to discuss what it is as its been a while since I watched it last but I wasn't impressed with their cat whatever engine they were demonstrating.

[NickB79]

51. Air cars have been hyped for the past decade, with no saleable product

In other words, vaporware.