Half of pronuclear responses at Japanese e-townhall were from industry employees

[kristopher]

And that's the ones we know of when the investigation is being conducted by the perpetrators...

141 Kyushu Electric employees sent pro-nuclear mail
2011/07/16

Kyushu Electric Power Co. released the results of an investigation July 14 regarding its attempt to manipulate public opinion on the resumption of operations at its Genkai nuclear power plant in Saga Prefecture.

The incident took place during a public hearing TV program broadcast June 26. Kyushu Electric instructed 2,900 employees at the company and its affiliates to send pro-nuclear e-mails to the program.

The investigation revealed, of 2,900 employees, 141 sent e-mails. The program received 286 pro-nuclear messages and 163 anti-nuclear messages.

The Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry ordered Kyushu Electric to investigate similar past cases and hire outside experts to determine the causes of the propaganda effort.

The ministry also instructed six other power companies...
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201107150328.html

Since the regulator's response has been to tell six other power companies that held similar local briefings to check if they had done anything similar, I think we can conclude that the lesson about oversight hasn't yet been internalized within the etremely pronuclear ranks of METI.

[GliderGuider]

1. Of the apparently legitimate callers, 53% were anti-nuclear and 47% were pro.

That's a much higher pro-nuclear percentage than I would have expected under the circumstances. It will be interesting to see if more misrepresentation is uncovered by the outside experts.

[kristopher]

2. I don't think it is suprising at all.

I'm going off the top of my head, but IIRC the national polling shows that 74% want to end nuclear now or phase it out (about 25% want them all shut down now).

The question posed to the people at the briefing was specific to restarting a single plant. The difference between 25% who what them all shut down now and the 47% who do not want that specific reactor in their town to restart right now probably means that there are concerns about the amount of attention that has, to date, been paid to making sure the reactors are safe to run until they can be replaced by renewables.

There is also the issue of biases raised by the nature of the polling, it is a self-selected sample and thus should be viewed carefully when applied to larger questions.


edited for clarity

Edited again to add that the national poll showed that only 14% of the nation wanted to continue to rely on nuclear

74% of voters back dumping nuclear power
2011/06/15

Seventy-four percent of voters support abolishing nuclear power after a phase-out period, compared with 14 percent opposed, an Asahi Shimbun survey found....
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201106140170.html

[GliderGuider]

8. So the poll can't be characterized as pro/anti-nuclear in a general sense

due to local short-term considerations. That makes sense.

[ZombieHorde]

3. What makes a caller illegitimate? nt

[GliderGuider]

6. I'd say calling because you were told to by your boss would do it.

Just working in the industry wouldn't be grounds for an accusation of illegitimacy, but doing it as an implicit or explicit part of your job and not divulging your association would.

[ZombieHorde]

9. That doesn't mean the emails contained fake opinions.

Arguments should be judged on their logic and facts, not their source.

[kristopher]

10. The part about them not divulging that their paycheck comes from the nuclear plants...

...just went right over your head, didn't it?

See:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x303367
Major Japanese nuclear industry scandal that our nuclear supporters will not understand...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x303575
Systematic involvement suspected in Genkai scandal - (astroturf scandal)

[ZombieHorde]

11. I am against nuclear power because of human corruption and human incompetence,

but I don't really think this is a big deal.

If the opinions contained lies about nuclear power, then that would be distasteful, but hiding affiliation is pretty minor and has no bearing on an actual argument.

[kristopher]

12. If that is what you believe in this circumstance you need to examine your ethics.

[madokie]

13. You're nutts

nothing personal but that is crazy talk, errr typing. :hi:

[ZombieHorde]

20. Funny. nt

[GliderGuider]

14. It's interesting that I feel this was illegitimate, but I don't feel that way about...

...about "get out the vote" campaigns during elections. People who are paid to work for political parties are encouraged to vote for their own party, after all.

So what's the difference? It can't be the secrecy of the ballot, because that is intended to hide all affiliations unlike a phone/email poll like this where the affiliation of "voters" can be discovered.

the fact that it may have distorted the results can't be a big issue, because such a small poll is inherently inaccurate to begin with.

Is it just that the "wrong" side did it, as when Republicans are better at getting out the vote than Democrats? Would we have had the same objections if an anti-nuclear lobby group had "stuffed the ballot box" with emails?

Very interesting. Thanks.

[kristopher]

16. It isn't complex, one is a "shill" the other isn't.

The issues of the nuclear townhall compared to a get out the vote campaign make an apples and oranges comparison because one is a shill and the other isn't.

Define: shill

a decoy who acts as an enthusiastic customer in order to stimulate the participation of others
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

A shill is person who is paid to help another person or organization to sell goods or services. The shill pretends to have no association with the seller/group and gives onlookers the impression that he or she is an enthusiastic customer. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

A person paid to endorse a product favourably, while pretending to be impartial; An accomplice at a confidence trick during an auction or gambling game; To promote or endorse in return for payment, especially dishonestly; To put under cover; to sheal
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shill

You seem to be trying to rationalize the pronuclear position with extremely questionable reasoning...

Again.

[GliderGuider]

17. Fair enough, thanks.

I'm not trying to "rationalize" anything, so much as think it through. Thanks for helping.

[ZombieHorde]

19. He is not offering a pro-nuclear position, and neither am I.

We're discussing a company asking its employees to anonymously offer a good opinion on the company's product.

[GliderGuider]

21. It is reasonable to call those employees shills.

The only quibble one might have is that in this case shilling is not an explicit requirement in order for them to get paid. It's not like they're getting sums of money money specifically for publishing favorable papers or writing favorable correspondence. IMO that's splitting hairs, though - especially in Japanese "salary-man" culture.

[txlibdem]

25. Is the investigation also going to uncover how many coal/oil/natural gas workers took part?

After all, we *all* hate shills don't we, Kristopher!

Further, is someone going to investigate how many people are affiliated or hope to be affiliated with the various renewable energy companies in Japan?

Once we start down this shill hunt, where do we draw the line? Aren't the employees of the nuclear plant also living in the area, don't they shop and eat lunch at the local establishments and therefore would they not have a legitimate interest in seeing that the economy of the area remain strong?

The only thing I agree with you about here is the amorality of their employer telling them to write the emails, but then only 5% of them actually did so.

[kristopher]

26. That isn't how the people of Japan see it.

They universally condemn and reject the actions of both Kyushu Electric and the individuals that participated. There is no ambiguity in their mind nor equivocation in their judgment.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x303367
Major Japanese nuclear industry scandal that our nuclear supporters will not understand...

[txlibdem]

28. You state that the Japanese universally agree with you but...

then you link to some other DU OP? Is that supposed to make everyone believe that you are supporting your argument or just making stuff up?

[kristopher]

30. It is no surprise that the ethical failure eludes you.

[txlibdem]

31. If there is a one-sided investigation then *that* is also an ethical failure. (n/t)

[kristopher]

32. This isn't Fox News.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x303367
Major Japanese nuclear industry scandal that our nuclear supporters will not understand...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x303575
Systematic involvement suspected in Genkai scandal - (astroturf scandal)

[txlibdem]

36. Again, a one-sided (slanted) investigation. How many emails from Fossil shills?

You dance around the question and deflect to the right then deflect farther to the right.

Why are you not in favor of an investigation that looks at nuclear shills *AND* fossil fuel shills *AND* renewable energy company shills???

[kristopher]

37. I can't imagine the mind...

...that thinks clamoring on such an absurd proposition makes any kind of point that reflects on any aspect of this issue other than yourself.

It is patently obvious nonsense in the case at hand.

If you want to enlarge the scope of the issue, you are going to find that the only industry that has self-organized to actively deceive the public in this manner is still the nuclear industry. The nuclear industry trade and lobbying organizations have, over the past 10 years, created organized programs for training industry employees and using hired social media PR experts to represent their product in every possible venue of communication.

Nuclear energy has a very strong level of support among only about 15-20% of the population, yet their message dominates every newspaper and online article about nuclear or renewable energy. Their message is coordinated and planned to promote nuclear and disparage renewables.

The Grassroots initiative was inspired by Former Governor John Sununu's participation in the ANS Winter meeting in 2002. Sununu emphasized the opportunities present when nuclear professionals enter the public debate. In March 2003, Sununu to meet with ANS leadership to discuss outreach strategies. With the introduction of next nuclear generation, ANS members must seek out receptive audiences and deliver positive messages about nuclear science and technology of the 21st century. Read more about the Sununu meeting at: http://www.ans.org/members/ansnews/docs/2003-03-04.pdf.

http://www.ans.org/pi/pros/member/comkit/planting.html

The goal of grassroots initiatives is to make certain that ANS is publicly recognized as a credible source of nuclear science and technology information. The Outreach program cultivates the current base of ANS membership in order to produce meaningful relationships with policy makers, opinion shapers and the general public.

When ANS members interact with their local leaders, neighbors, or children's teachers, they can make a lasting impact and help the public understand how nuclear keeps the lights on, offers better healthcare and improves our daily lives.

As a professional in the field, you can take advantage of your technical expertise to educate policy makers, opinion shapers, and the general public when issues that relate to your industry arise.

YOU can take advantage of current events to inform and teach - to serve as a facilitator for information...

http://www.ans.org/pi/pros/member/comkit/growing.html

As part of the ANS Grassroots initiative, you will help increase the society's visibility and reputation as the source for information on nuclear science and technology.

Familiarize yourself with the materials in this Communication Kit.
Share this information with your section.
Talk with friends and neighbors about nuclear science and technology issues.
Discuss the kinds of questions you might expect from policy makers and community members.
Brainstorm what those questions might be.
Utilize ANS resources and staff to find materials to support your answers to anticipated questions.
Check into the nuclear information relative to your state.
Learn about your elected officials. You can find vital information about their past votes and opinions of nuclear by contacting Doug Wasitis in the ANS Washington office.
Follow local newspaper coverage.
The Grassroots Initiative encourages you to reach out to three audiences in order to build positive public perception about nuclear science and technology.

http://www.ans.org/pi/pros/member/comkit/audiences.html

The ANS Public Information Committee is the official host of the meeting and exclusive sponsorship is provided by the Idaho National Laboratory.

This is the second time such a meeting has been held. At the 2009 ANS Winter Meeting held in Washington, D.C., last November, we had a informal and successful meet-up of 45 people interested in discussing social media.

The plan this year is to have an informal discussion about how social media, including blogs, instant messages, and web services are shaping public perceptions of the nuclear energy industry. Also, this is an opportunity to meet others who work with these tools in the nuclear industry.

"The social media initiatives undertaken by the American Nuclear Society over the past year have broadened ANS nuclear outreach efforts and engaged new audiences," said Candace Davison,

http://djysrv.blogspot.com/2010_10_31_archive.html

That small sampling provides a glimpse of the scope of the effort this industry is engaged in.

The Japanese are amateurs. They still operate under the assumption that this type of industry misinformation campaign is a despicable breach of ethics.

[txlibdem]

38. I can't imagine the mind that wants a slanted investigation of only one kind of shill

and the mind that wants to ignore the fossil fuel shills... and those who have a financial interest in the renewable energy companies who stand to rake in billions in the near future.

I also can't imagine the mind who thinks that people can't see through a barrage of cut and paste crud that proves nothing and doesn't even address the topic at hand usually.

[txlibdem]

29. Is the investigation also going to uncover how many coal/oil/natural gas workers took part?

After all, we hate *all* shills don't we, Kristopher!

Further, is someone going to investigate how many people are affiliated or hope to be affiliated with the various renewable energy companies in Japan?

Once we start down this shill hunt, where do we draw the line? Aren't the employees of the nuclear plant also living in the area, don't they shop and eat lunch at the local establishments and therefore would they not have a legitimate interest in seeing that the economy of the area remain strong?

The only thing I agree with you about here is the amorality of their employer telling them to write the emails, but then only 5% of them actually did.

[ZombieHorde]

4. People in the field are bound to have strong opinions on the subject.

I don't see why their opinions are viewed negatively, as opposed to the opinions of others.

[kristopher]

5. Of course you don't.

[ZombieHorde]

7. What do you mean? nt

[madokie]

15. More like they're opinion is governed by their paychecks

They have hardly an unbiased opinion to say the least.

[ZombieHorde]

18. Our political opinions have a pro-liberal bias.

But aren't our political opinions just as valid as anyone else's?

[madokie]

22. Only to us is that so

wouldn't you think? :-)

[XemaSab]

42. One might argue

that people working in the energy field are more informed than lay people.

If you take everyone working in the energy field out of the equation then you're not left with a very informed group of people.

[kristopher]

23. One question: Why do nuclear industry employees hide their affiliation with their company?

They hide it because their view of what society should do on this issue is tainted by their financial and social ties.

[ZombieHorde]

24. They do it for the bandwagon effect.

"Other people like it, so I should like it."

[kristopher]

27. They hide their identity to create the bandwagon effect?

Why would hiding their identity be needed to promote that?

Why do they hide their identity?

[ZombieHorde]

33. That is how the bandwagon effect works.

A "common person's" opinion is viewed as superior than an insider's opinion to many people.

[kristopher]

34. That isn't what the "bandwagon effect" is.

You describe it as "A "common person's" opinion is viewed as superior than an insider's opinion to many people".

It has nothing to do with a "common person's" opinion being prized - that is anti-intellectual populism you are describing.

There is no ethical justification or excuse for the practice of lying about who you are and deceiving people for a business proposal. It is sleazier behavior than the shit used car salesmen pulled during WWII that earned them such an enduring reputation that their job is synonymous for a total lack of ethics.

The bandwagon effect is when excitement is created in order to motivate people to join in a movement of some sort - that is all.

This graph shows what Cooper describes as "The Great Bandwagon Market" for nuclear. The link goes to an online version of the paper.


http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2009/11/26/the-economics-of-nuclear-reactors-renaissance-or-relapse

[ZombieHorde]

35. I guess I need to take some marketing classes.

Marketing and politics go hand in hand.

[kristopher]

39. Nuclear is a case of corporate business buying politics.

I don't think marketing is the primary thing missing. Not meant to be insulting, but from your dialog, I'd suggest some exploration of the field of ethics. The ethics that have been successfully cultivated by the right in this country are not even close to being universally accepted. If a person doesn't instinctively understand what is ethically wrong with the OP, then they have succumbed to the main theme embodied by the Murdock/Rove/Limbaugh messaging machine.

It really isn't even a close call.

[ZombieHorde]

40. I have taken many classes on ethics, rhetoric, and argumentation, and all them

said arguments should stand on their own. I completely agree with them.

If a person doesn't instinctively understand what is ethically wrong with the OP, then they have succumbed to the main theme embodied by the Murdock/Rove/Limbaugh messaging machine.

Fallacious thinking. The opinions of those men are meaningless to the subject of nuclear power's merits and flaws.

You're addressing me instead of my arguments. Ethics requires critically thinking. Fallacious thinking is a terrible foundation for ethics.

edit to add: I would like to note I have offered arguments on why I believe this is not a big deal, but I don't notice any real arguments to the contrary in this thread. An argument is a reason for an opinion.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

43. Another poster addressing me instead of making an argument. nt

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

47. What harm do you see in those folks not identifying their employer? nt

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

50. I have answered your question: marketing.

And you falsely represented yourself in the process when you wrote, "I have taken many classes on ethics, rhetoric, and argumentation..."

Completely ridiculous personal attack. I will no longer reply to posts from you which personally attack me, unless pointing out your logical weaknesses amuses me. If you are able to construct an argument without personal attacks, I will attempt to address it.

[bananas]

45. Sophistry, rhetoric, sophomoric philosophy, ...

One could spend years taking classes on those subjects without learning anything.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Sophistry

Sophistry
From Uncyclopedia, the content-free encyclopedia.

This article details Sophistry, perhaps you were looking for Sophia?

Sophistry is a popular movement within modern day philosophy whose roots go back to the time of the Ancient Greeks. A number of philosophers including Plato, Socrates and Hypocrites are all known to have worked on arguments detailing Sophistry.

Contents
1 Defining Sophistry
2 The Logical Conclusions of Sophistry
3 The Final Conclusion of Sophistry
4 See Also

Defining Sophistry

Sophistry, in its modern definiton, is considered by many to be an illogical or confusing argument intended to deceive someone into believing a fallacious, ludicrous idea. This is a false definition that is not based on the historical definition. In fact, in the time of Greek philosophers, sophistry was related to the word sophós, meaning "wiseman". The modern definition of sophistry cannot logically exist, because:

1. It is not the arguer's fault if a gullible person does not recognize the lack of logic or inherent confusion in the argument. Furthermore, the argument, however illogical or confusing, makes sense to the arguer. Therefore, there is no such thing as an illogical or confusing argument.

2. If illogical or confusing arguments do not exist, then they cannot be used for deception. Therefore, deception through use of illogical or confusing arguments cannot exist.

3. Therefore, as the Greek philosophers concluded, sophistry, illogical and confusing arguments, and "wisemen" do not exist.

<snip>


Idiocrates was an early supporter of the Sophistry movement.


Sophistry leads us to ask "Is this a nice bust, or what?"

[ZombieHorde]

46. Now a poster is calling my argument names instead of me.

That is a step in the right direction, but still exposes fallacious thinking. I know it's hard, but keep trying. You can do it!

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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