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Japan’s Electricity Shortage to Last Months (test of baseload myth)

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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:15 PM
Original message
Japan’s Electricity Shortage to Last Months (test of baseload myth)
Edited on Mon Mar-28-11 10:17 PM by kristopher
Japan’s Electricity Shortage to Last Months

TOKYO — The term “rolling blackouts” has become shorthand for noting one way Japan is trying to cope with its national calamity.

Shorthand should not be confused with short term. Utility experts and economists say it will take many months, possibly into next year, to get anywhere close to restoring full power.

The places most affected are not only in the earthquake-ravaged area but also in the economically crucial region closer to Tokyo, which is having to ration power because of the big chunk of the nation’s electrical generating capacity that was knocked out by the quake or washed away by the tsunami.

Besides the dangerously disabled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, three other nuclear plants, six coal-fired plants and 11 oil-fired power plants were initially shut down, according to PFC Energy, an international consulting firm.

By some measures, as much as 20 percent...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/business/global/29power.html?src=busln



Here is a description by Amory Lovins of the way reliability is portrayed by nuclear supporters, and the reality. Following that is a brief statement from DOE about the benefits of distributed generation, which is the way renewables fit together; and then a challenge for nuclear supporters to justify their claims for more public spending on nuclear fission technology.


The “baseload” myth
... The manifest need for some amount of steady, reliable power is met by generating plants collectively, not individually. That is, reliability is a statistical attribute of all the plants on the grid combined. If steady 24/7 operation or operation at any desired moment were instead a required capability of each individual power plant, then the grid couldn’t meet modern needs, because no kind of power plant is perfectly reliable. For example, in the U.S. during 2003–07, coal capacity was shut down an average of 12.3% of the time (4.2% without warning); nuclear, 10.6% (2.5%); gas-fired, 11.8% (2.8%). Worldwide through 2008, nuclear units were unexpectedly unable to produce 6.4% of their energy output.26 This inherent intermittency of nuclear and fossil-fueled power plants requires many different plants to back each other up through the grid. This has been utility operators’ strategy for reliable supply throughout the industry’s history. Every utility operator knows that power plants provide energy to the grid, which serves load. The simplistic mental model of one plant serving one load is valid only on a very small desert island. The standard remedy for failed plants is other interconnected plants that are working—not “some sort of massive energy storage devised.”

Modern solar and wind power are more technically reliable than coal and nuclear plants; their technical failure rates are typically around 1–2%. However, they are also variable resources because their output depends on local weather, forecastable days in advance with fair accuracy and an hour ahead with impressive precision. But their inherent variability can be managed by proper resource choice, siting, and operation. Weather affects different renewable resources differently; for example, storms are good for small hydro and often for windpower, while flat calm weather is bad for them but good for solar power. Weather is also different in different places: across a few hundred miles, windpower is scarcely correlated, so weather risks can be diversified. A Stanford study found that properly interconnecting at least ten windfarms can enable an average of one-third of their output to provide firm baseload power. Similarly, within each of the three power pools from Texas to the Canadian border, combining uncorrelated windfarm sites can reduce required wind capacity by more than half for the same firm output, thereby yielding fewer needed turbines, far fewer zero-output hours, and easier integration.

A broader assessment of reliability tends not to favor nuclear power. Of all 132 U.S. nuclear plants built—just over half of the 253 originally ordered—21% were permanently and prematurely closed due to reliability or cost problems. Another 27% have completely failed for a year or more at least once. The surviving U.S. nuclear plants have lately averaged ~90% of their full-load full-time potential—a major improvement31 for which the industry deserves much credit—but they are still not fully dependable. Even reliably-running nuclear plants must shut down, on average, for ~39 days every ~17 months for refueling and maintenance. Unexpected failures occur too, shutting down upwards of a billion watts in milliseconds, often for weeks to months. Solar cells and windpower don’t fail so ungracefully.

Power plants can fail for reasons other than mechanical breakdown, and those reasons can affect many plants at once. As France and Japan have learned to their cost, heavily nuclear-dependent regions are particularly at risk because drought, earthquake, a serious safety problem, or a terrorist incident could close many plants simultaneously. And nuclear power plants have a unique further disadvantage: for neutron-physics reasons, they can’t quickly restart after an emergency shutdown, such as occurs automatically in a grid power failure...


From Amory Lovins
Four Nuclear Myths: A Commentary on Stewart Brand’s Whole Earth Discipline and on Similar Writings
Available for download: http://www.rmi.org/rmi/Library/2009-09_FourNuclearMyths



THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF DISTRIBUTED GENERATION AND RATE-RELATED ISSUES THAT MAY IMPEDE ITS EXPANSION
June 2007
U.S. Department of Energy

Executive Summary

Background
Section 1817 of the Energy Policy Act (EPACT) of 2005 calls for the Secretary of Energy to conduct a study of the potential benefits of cogeneration and small power production, otherwise known as distributed generation, or DG. The benefits to be studied are described in subpart (2)(A) of Section 1817. In accordance with Section 1817 the study includes those benefits received “either directly or indirectly by an electricity distribution or transmission service provider, other customers served by an electricity distribution or transmission service provider and/or the general public in the area served by the public utility in which the cogenerator or small power producer is located.” Congress did not require the study to include the potential benefits to owners/operators of DG units.1

The specific areas of potential benefits covered in this study include:
• Increased electric system reliability (Section 2 of the Study)
• An emergency supply of power (Section 2 and 7 of the Study)
• Reduction of peak power requirements (Section 3 of the Study)
• Offsets to investments in generation, transmission, or distribution facilities that would otherwise be recovered through rates (Section 3 of the Study)
• Provision of ancillary services, including reactive power (Section 4 of the Study)
• Improvements in power quality (Section 5 of the Study)
• Reductions in land-use effects and rights-of-way acquisition costs (Section 6 of the Study)
• Reduction in vulnerability to terrorism and improvements in infrastructure resilience (Section 7 of the Study)

Additionally, Congress requested an analysis of “...any rate-related issue that may impede or otherwise discourage the expansion of cogeneration and small power production facilities, including a review of whether rates, rules, or other requirements imposed on the facilities are comparable to rates imposed on customers of the same class that do not have cogeneration or small power production.” (Section 8 of the Study)


A Brief History of DG
DG is not a new phenomenon. Prior to the advent of alternating current and large-scale steam turbines - during the initial phase of the electric power industry in the early 20th century - all energy requirements, including heating, cooling, lighting, and motive power, were supplied at or near their point of use. Technical advances, economies of scale in power production and delivery, the expanding role of electricity in American life, and its concomitant regulation as a public utility, all gradually converged to enable the network of gigawatt-scale thermal power plants located far from urban centers that we know today, with high-voltage transmission and lower voltage distribution lines carrying electricity to virtually every business, facility, and home in the country.

At the same time this system of central generation was evolving, some customers found it economically advantageous to install and operate their own electric power and thermal energy systems, particularly in the industrial sector. Moreover, facilities with needs for highly reliable power, such as hospitals and telecommunications centers, frequently installed their own electric generation units to use for emergency power during outages. Traditionally, these forms of DG were not assets under the control of electric utilities. However, in some cases, they produced benefits to the overall electric system by supplying needed power to those consumers in lieu of the local electricity provider. In such cases, utility investment for facilities and/or system capacity that would have been used to supply those customers could be re- directed to expand/upgrade the network.

Over the years, the technologies for both central generation and DG improved by becoming more efficient and less costly. Implementation of Section 210 of the Public Utilities Regulatory Policy Act of 1978 (PURPA) sparked a new era of highly energy efficient and renewable DG for electric system applications. Section 210 established a new class of non-utility generators called “Qualifying Facilities” (QFs) and provided financial incentives to encourage development of cogeneration and small power production. Many QFs have since provided energy to consumers on-site, but some have sold power at rates and under terms and conditions that have been either negotiated or set by state regulatory authorities or non- regulated utilities.

Today, advances in new materials and designs for photovoltaic panels, microturbines, reciprocating engines, thermally-activated devices, fuel cells, digital controls, and remote monitoring equipment (among other components and technologies) have expanded the range of opportunities and applications for “next generation” DG, and have made it possible to tailor energy systems to the specific needs of consumers. These technical advances, combined with changing consumer needs, and the restructuring of wholesale and retail markets for electric power and natural gas, have opened even more opportunities for consumers to use DG to meet their own energy needs.
At the same time, these circumstances can allow electric utilities to explore the possibilities of utilizing DG to help address the requirements of a modern electric system. The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) has supported research and development in an effort to make these “next generation” DG devices more energy efficient, reliable, clean and affordable. The aim of these efforts has been to accelerate the pace of development of “next generation” energy systems, and promote greater energy security, economic competitiveness, and environmental protection. These “next generation” systems are the focus of this study....

The full study may be found at http://www.oe.energy.gov.



Why should we build nuclear?

At this point it is up to the supporters to justify it.

1. nuclear power isn't "cheap" it is expensive;

2. learning and new standardized designs will not solve all past problems - waste, safety and proliferation are part and parcel of the technology;

3. the waste problem is a real problem, even if we’d follow the lead of many other nations and “recycle” our spent fuel;

4. climate change does not make a renaissance "inevitable";

5. there are other ways to provide electricity than with large-scale “baseload” sources of generation - "baseload" is in reality nothing more than an economic construct that developed around centralized generation and a distributed approach is technically far superior;

6. there’s every reason to worry that a rapidly expanding global industry will put nuclear power and weapons technologies in highly unstable nations, often nations with ties to terrorist organizations.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-28-11 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Years ago, I read about something called hydride storage in Popular Science
they had pix of a demo in which an armor-piercing bullet was fired into the hydride tank, creating only a tiny blue flame for a second or two.

Could that be a way to export electricity (say, from S. Korea) onto an island? For years, I was thinking about using it to get tidal power out of the Bay of Fundy without building a high-tension line all the way across Maine.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. better to make it on the island from wind and water. just use the hydrogen gas.
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 06:23 AM by kristopher
it depends on the application but you'd not need hydrogen at dense storage (which is why you might turn to hydrates) unless you needed it to be portable for an application like transportation.

For storage of electricity from a windmill on an island though... Yes, there is some real potential for not-so-densely-pressurized H as storage for electricity on an island. A large part of the trouble with H is that it is hard to transport or store for long periods, and it takes a lot of energy to compress it into a small enough package to give an auto the desired range.

Since an island mitigates both those problems, h from wind would probably work well. Although with lithium battery technology progressing at its current rate I would expect that to be more suitable within 10-15 years, but that is just an educated guess.

As to the Bay of Fundy, that is a local matter to be decided there. The resource is unique because of the extreme nature of the tides, but it isn't a drop in the bucket to solving the overall energy problems we face. Chasing it because of its unique potential is more an exercise in profits than necessity as there are far more important tidal, wave and current resources that can be sited in ways to make tie in with a long-shore grid an easy way to bring the power to the terrestrial grid in a way that minimizes both environmental and economic costs.

Google, /google offshore grid/ to see what I mean.
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I meant for the immediate future
so as to keep Japan from becoming California in the Enron days.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Japan has abundant renewable resources if they want to tap them.
Hydrogen, however, isn't a good fit for them. They are ideal for electric vehicles, though.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. Test of the baseload myth? Heck... It's just the opposite.
It's a test of the intermittency of a 100% renewable grid.

The only difference between the rolling blackouts they now deal with and what their everydaymlife would be like under your plan...

... Is that the blackouts are less frequent and on a schedule.

Imagine a 100% renewable Japan after the earthquake. Large portions of their solar power destroyed in the tsunami... Scores of turbines down from the earthquake. A calm cold night with nothing coming from the remaining solar panels and less than 25% of capacity from wind. Even though they built three times as many plants as the would need at peak production, they still have half the nation without power at any given hour.

Nobody fearing radiation... Just the cold.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. None of the wind turbines in the earthquake zone were damaged.
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 07:26 AM by kristopher
Since your entire post is otherwise completely refuted in the content of the OP I refer anyone that doesn't already know your characterization is false to the documents offered there.

For convenience here is the most relevant part, the benefits in all of these areas are confirmed by the quoted study and many others besides:

The specific areas of potential benefits covered in this study include:
• Increased electric system reliability
• An emergency supply of power
• Reduction of peak power requirements
• Offsets to investments in generation, transmission, or distribution facilities that would otherwise be recovered through rates
• Provision of ancillary services, including reactive power
• Improvements in power quality
• Reductions in land-use effects and rights-of-way acquisition costs
• Reduction in vulnerability to terrorism and improvements in infrastructure resilience


That could not be a more clear refutation of what you say to try and make nuclear sound good. In fact, the entire disaster zone in Japan is in far more dire straights than they would be if they had any other source of power.

I was in Japan after the Kobe quake in 1995 killed 6,000 and crippled a large city. The response could not have been any more different that what has emerged after the destruction of the eastern coastal region.

In Kobe the response was huge and immediate with a massive influx of materials and people into the area. In short order they had effective operational control of the disaster sight and coordinated rescue operations underway. Hard on the heels of the rescuers came the clean-up operation with residents, families and friends of victims augmented by volunteers on site from around the country.

In Fukushima, Miyagi and the surrounding areas we see instead deserted landscapes where an occasional resident is seen tentatively picking through the rubble in an attempt to fathom the fact that their life has no hope of being resurrected.

Anyone that defends and attempts to minimize the cause of that level of human suffering is simply evil.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. I feel an abiding desire to cut thru this time-wasting semantics-of-baseload food fight...
What people need is an electric grid with five-nines uptime. That isn't a "myth." A modern industrial economy functions poorly without that, as Japan is currently experiencing.

If you want to energize a five-nines grid with wind and solar, you have to build redundant turbines and solar arrays, and you have to build storage. It adds a lot to the environmental and economic costs. It doesn't really matter if you do it big-and-centralized, or small-and-local. You pay for it no matter what shape you want to slice it in.

It's possible to do that. We could do that without violating any laws of physics. Maybe we'll choose to do it. It's not, however, a "myth."
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. So your proof of your assertion is that you have a piece of jargon to throw into the mix?
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 11:20 AM by kristopher
What part of basic reading skills did you miss out on? The OP describes the benefits of a distributed grid. Note that the terms used include words like "increased" "offsets" "reduction" and "improvements".

That would be in relation to something.

That something would be the present grid.

A distributed grid is described as providing "Increased electric system reliability".

Do you think that "increased" means it moves us closer or further from a 99.999% rate of reliability?
I'm guessing closer.

The F&%#inG MYTH is the completely counter-factual tale by nuclear supporters that central thermal is somehow going to be more effective because they have a nifty name to confuse the uninitiated with: "baseload"! Oh that sounds important, doesn't it?
Yes it sounds important - if you are an accountant.

The specific areas of potential benefits covered in this study include:
• Increased electric system reliability
• An emergency supply of power
• Reduction of peak power requirements
• Offsets to investments in generation, transmission, or distribution facilities that would otherwise be recovered through rates
• Provision of ancillary services, including reactive power
• Improvements in power quality
• Reductions in land-use effects and rights-of-way acquisition costs
• Reduction in vulnerability to terrorism and improvements in infrastructure resilience


The claim you just made also contains counter-factual information regarding environmental impacts and economic costs.
Jacobson's comparative life-cycle analysis of resource and technologies focused on sustainability and environmental consequences and the results are unambiguous - nuclear is a third rate solution to our energy problems;

http://pubs.rsc.org/services/images/RSCpubs.ePlatform.Service.FreeContent.ImageService.svc/ImageService/image/GA?id=B809990C

Download full "Review of Solutions" report here: http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/revsolglobwarmairpol.htm

Then there is the economic argument you posit that is also baseless. I used to think that Severance was a bit off target but not after this comprehensive look at nuclear subsidies came out. It leads to the conclusion that Severance's estimate of actual costs is a more realistic assessment than it was originally given credit for.
"Business Risks and Costs of New Nuclear Power" is a great read for understanding the history of the nuclear industry also:
http://climateprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/nuclear-costs-2009.pdf

The Koplow's Subsidy Report is here.
http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/nuclear_power/nuclear_subsidies_report.pdf



Finally we have a quantification of the difference in costs between deploying nuclear and renewable/efficiency by Cooper, who uses a basis cost for nuclear far lower than Severance to reach these conclusions:
The Economics of Nuclear Reactors: Renaissance or Relapse?
by Mark Cooper


Within the past year, estimates of the cost of nuclear power from a new generation of reactors have ranged from a low of 8.4 cents per kilowatt hour (kWh) to a high of 30 cents. This paper tackles the debate over the cost of building new nuclear reactors. The most recent cost projections for new nuclear reactors are, on average, over four times as high as the initial “nuclear renaissance” projections. The additional cost of building 100 new nuclear reactors, instead of pursuing a least cost efficiency-renewable strategy, would be in the range of $1.9-$4.4 trillion over the life the reactors.

The key findings of the paper as follows:

* The initial cost projections put out early in today’s so-called “nuclear renaissance” were about one-third of what one would have expected, based on the nuclear reactors completed in the 1990s.
* The most recent cost projections for new nuclear reactors are, on average, over four times as high as the initial “nuclear renaissance” projections.
* There are numerous options available to meet the need for electricity in a carbon-constrained environment that are superior to building nuclear reactors. Indeed, nuclear reactors are the worst option from the point of view of the consumer and society...

http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2009/11/26/the-economics-of-nuclear-reactors-renaissance-or-relapse



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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I make a very very simple point, and you respond with vitriol and a pant-load of 'ctrl-v'
I admit, I don't know how to discuss these topics with you productively. Which is why I mostly pass on it.

:shrug:
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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I think the difference between you is simple:
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 03:27 PM by GliderGuider
You're specifying performance, while kristopher specifies design.

In the end we all want a grid that meets our requirements as power consumers (that's the specification). You tend to be a agnostic regarding the actual implementation, and to someone who wants to specify a particular design that agnosticism looks a lot like heresy.

If someone can build a grid with five-nines availability that supplies the power that I need at a price I'm willing to pay, I'm quite willing to pony up taxes to buy my share. I don't care whether it's supplied by wind, solar, tidal, geothermal or generator-equipped hamster wheels. OK, I do have a teensy weensy design spec of my own to throw in: no fossil fuels of any sort, no nuclear power and no mega-hydro. Beyond that, have at it, mythter.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's easy - just bring vetted facts to the table
You can't discuss because the facts you WANT to believe are true are, in fact, false.

I support my claims with evidence you do not have because your claims and beliefs are false. Valid knowledge is the key element you are missing. i mean do you rally think trying to diminish the validity of the front-line literature I present by sneering at the use of the paste function is a valid response to the content of those sources?

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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
8. Need for Rolling Blackouts is Proof Baseload exists
BaseLoad - Is the minimum power load that is drawn from the grid. That parts of the grid need to be isolated and turned off to prevent the entire grid from collapsing. Serves to further demonstrate the Load dependency of the grid. Like the public water supply when more is drawn than supplied the flow collapses across the grid.

The Myth being cited is that a Multitude of smaller sources are not capable of supplying baseload. The proof of that is based upon statistics or the eventual construction of sufficient sources to prove the concept. But what currently is happening in Japan will not further it's proof. Except perhaps that people relying on oxygen concentrators can learn to survive intermittent blackouts.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. No, it is proof of the weakness of a system designed around largescale centralized power.
You are one hundred percent wrong and proved so by the OP. and post #9 above.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Weakness is in Physics of Electricity Consumption
The biggest weakness in the grid is it's Demand Dependency. That is the total output power is regulated at N load points. And should the Sum (0..N) exceed online generation capacity the grid collapses as many inductive loads increase power consumption under a brownout condition. This is independent of the source. What maters is the size of the single load. Look at history for some of the great blackouts. Loss of a single feeder in those cases cause grid collapse across major areas of the country.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Which is exactly why the generating redundancy of a distributed grid is superior.
"This is independent of the source. What maters is the size of the single load."

Unless, as in a distributed grid, the sources are located in close proximity to the load - as in a distribute grid.

Why not read the literature provided in the OP?
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Change in Definition
My objection isn't what it says but in it's choice to create a specific sub-definition of a concept, such that it can then claim it's a myth. Baseload is a concept. The choice to meet it with 1 or 10,000 plants is just that a choice. That they will probably be designed for efficiency since 100% of production will always be sold and the improbability of needing to Load Follow are about the only parts totally attributable to a facility designed to primarily meet BaseLoad.

Redundancy is a different issue and while better in meeting a disaster also costs $$$'s. Free markets don't encourage people to build production facilities for what they can't sell. Just so that a reserve is available for a low probability event. Thats why Hospitals and Server Farms have backup generators, to cover the fairly common, few hour blackouts.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. It isn't a change of definition. That view suggests you aren't familiar at all with the topic
"Base load" actually has several related, but distinctly different definitions.

The one that is used as a false excuse to claim renewables must be supplemented is "baseload generation" where the operational profile of a large scale, centralized thermal plant is being discussed. It is a false presentation of the problem that relies on conflating a how a single power plant works with the way the grid works.

Please stop trying to pretend you understand the subject.
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
12. But the shortage isn't just from loss of nuclear plants
The massive quake/tsunami damage knocked out a number of plants. Actually the nuclear plants, except for Fukushima Daiichi (a HUGE AND MEANINGFUL exception) seem to have survived better than conventionals due to the attempt to harden them.

I don't think you have addressed the "baseload" myth because it does not seem that most renewable sources would have fared any better. You would have massive loss of electricity production even if Japan were solely solar-powered, for example. And I am pretty sure that off shore wind turbines are at least somewhat vulnerable to such a huge disaster. Certainly some of the cabling would be damaged.

An upper 8 to 9 magnitude earthquake followed by the massive tsunami (measured 12-14 meters, over 35 feet!! is going to knock out whatever is near the coast.

The ports are destroyed, the offshore fish and seaweed plants are destroyed, the fields are destroyed. The insurance companies covering earthquake damage are paying claims for total destruction based on aerial surveys. Yesterday on NHK they were talking about the tsunami reaching up to 30 km inland in places (especially up waterways). It's difficult to comprehend the scope of such a disaster.

Here's one article about seismic issues on wind turbines. It's an open issue, but my bet is that Japan will never use turbines on the east coast. The west MIGHT be possible:
http://www.eastcountymagazine.org/node/3095


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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Do you always pretend the science doesn't exist?
Your beliefs are shown in the OP to be unfounded. Perhaps you could take the trouble to read the material provided before you say the case has not been proven.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Your comments on destruction to other infrastructure makes a good point
For a country that uses as much electricity as Japan to rely primarily on renewables, they would have to develop all potential sources to round out generation needs. This would include offshore wind and tidal hydro generation. How these would have fared against the tsunami is a matter of debate, but even assuming the turbines and tidal floats survived, the onshore facilities that transfer the electricity from offshore to the grid would have been severely damaged if they were in the flood zone. It would be easier to replace on-shore facilities than thousands of lost offshore turbines or tidal hydro, but either way you'd be looking at months of power loss at best. If you had to rebuild a large portion of your offshore turbine farms, you might be looking at YEARS before capacity comes back to pre-quake levels, since turbine factories can only churn out so many turbines a month.

The loss of port capacity would also become problematic, because most renewable build-out today is accompanied by a build-out of natural gas as well. Since Japan has little in the way of natural gas reserves, it is dependent on LNG-ship imports. If a LNG-designated port were hit by the tsunami, you can't simply send those ships to another port; you need highly specialized equipment to offload the LNG.
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kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Of course, your certainty about the survivability of a system you know nothing about ...
must be based on some sort of evidence in the real world, right? I know you must have some study about the matter that I haven't read and you could refer me to.

How about it? Or is it a paper from the same file where all the other nuclear power "statements of fact" originate? If that's the case, I hope you flushed at least twice.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-31-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I made no such assertions, though you already know that
As I did say though:

"How these would have fared against the tsunami is a matter of debate, but even assuming the turbines and tidal floats survived, the onshore facilities that transfer the electricity from offshore to the grid would have been severely damaged if they were in the flood zone."

I have no idea how offshore wind turbines or tidal hydro generators themselves would fare against a tsunami, as I stated. However, seeing as how EVERY CITY in the path of the tsunami was severely damaged (some entirely wiped out), I don't feel it requires a study to say "tidal waves destroy infrastructure" to prove my point. The weakest point here would appear to be where the offshore electricity is transferred to the onshore grid, not the generating structures themselves.

For example, I don't think Japan would be getting much electricity from an offshore wind or tidal hydro farm if it connected to the grid in Natori City: http://www.cafod.org.uk/news/emergencies-updates/japan-earthquake-2011-03-11
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-30-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
22. Baseload?
That's just superstition.
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