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NNadir, would you care to enlighten us about cancer and radiation?

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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 07:46 PM
Original message
NNadir, would you care to enlighten us about cancer and radiation?
Why is it that if radiation has a tendency to cause cancer, radiation is also used to treat cancer? This seems like a paradox to me...
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enki23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. are you being silly? or?
Edited on Fri Jun-17-05 08:34 PM by enki23
i don't know if you're trying to call nnadir out because of his pro-nuclear stance, or if you're really curious. i'll assume mostly the latter...

rapidly dividing tissues are generally most at risk for mutations, and consequently damage from radiation, for a number of reasons. one of the big reasons is that more of their DNA is currently undergoing replication, and so there's less time for repair and consequently a higher risk for fixed mutations. not the only reason, but probably the biggest. they're also more likely to be energy deprived, i'd imagine, and so their repair efficiency may be less because of that. also, lower levels of ATP are (if i remember right) associated with a cell going necrotic rather than being shunted into apotopsis. necrotic cells do much more damage to the cells around them when they go. now, i'm not actually positive about the last two issues, but i am about the first.

anyway, tumors often tend to be one of (if not the) most rapidly dividing tissues in a body. probably the majority of cancer therapeutic agents are pretty heavily mutagenic. the idea behind radiation therapy and chemotherapy is to give you a fairly toxic dose of one or the other, just at the level which most of your tissues will barely tolerate, and hope it's harder on the tumor. doesn't work as well on slow growing tumors. other rapidly dividing tissues, like your bone marrow etc, tend to fare badly in many cancer treatment regimes for the same reasons.

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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-17-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm not being silly. I really wanted to know.
I just called for NNadir because I thought he probably has the most knowledge on the subject of radiation here at DU.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
3. This is a very big topic.
Enki23 has given you a very good basic description of the situation. Most cancer cures are in fact carcinogenic themselves. It is known, for instance, that nurses who provide chemotherapy to patients, have very high cancer rates.

Contrary to popular opinion, radiation may not be the primary cause of cancer. It is important to understand that life evolved in the presence of radiation because 1) the planet overall is radioactive, 2) significant quantities of high energy radiation do penetrate the earth's atmosphere where it interacts with living tissue. Some people feel that the "linear hypothesis" in which the risks associated from radiation at low levels can be extrapolated from data collected from organisms subjected to high level radiation (atomic bomb survivors are among the most studied set of human organisms so studied) is nonsense. I am inclined to agree. There is some evidence, albeit controversial, that low level radiation exposure is good for you.

Neither can it be said that all cancer mechanisms are identical. Soot particles may cause cancer because they are planar on a molecular level. This allows them to fit in the grooves on nucleic acids and effect transcription, a process that can lead to cancer induction. Many cancer drugs, irinotecan for instance and cisplatin, work by exactly the same mechanism as soot, but they preferentially kill cancer cells as opposed to normal cells.

Other carcinogenic chemical compounds work by binding to regulatory proteins. Some metals are carcinogenic because they mimic other metals in metal co-ordinating proteins in a way that slightly modifies the effects of these proteins.

Carcinogenesis from radiation generally relates to the breaking of chemical bonds, particularly in nucleic acids, but also in proteins and other biomolecules. When radiation breaks a chemical bond, it can do so in two ways, heterolytically, in which two charged particles result, or homolytically, in which two neutral particles, each having a highly reactive unpaired electron which is generally referred to as a free radical. Of these two types of cleavage, it is probably the case that homolytic cleavage is the most problematic. Free radicals will sometimes cause chemical chain reactions. (Indeed many polymerization reactions such as are used to make plastics are free radical chain reactions.) A chain reaction in a cell can lead to the alteration of a base pair in a nucleic acid, resulting, say, in the methylation of a adenosine. This can under the right circumstances mimic the mechanism of many cancer drugs, which is to interfere with DNA transcription through chain termination. It can also lead to conformational changes that change the reactivity of the DNA molecule.

Depending on the location and type of cell involved, this can either kill an undesired cell (a cancer cell) or cause a normal cell to mutate into a cancer cell. It is important to note that not every interaction in which DNA is damaged results in a cancer cell. The most probable outcome of DNA damage, for cancer cells and normal cells alike is apotosis, cell death. In fact, the probability of cancer cells forming and surviving is very, very, very low. This is why we exist.

Smokers, for instance, usually smoke for many decades before actually getting cancer - it took my father almost 50 years to be killed by smoking but kill him it did. It is safe to say that the mechanistic opportunity to generate a cancer cell existed every day of his smoking life, just as the mechanistic opportunity to develop cancer from radiation exists at all times for all individuals since we are all radioactive. (This is because we all contain potassium, a radioactive element that is essential to life.) Not all smokers develop cancer. The comedian George Burns, for instance, existed almost continuously in a cloud of tobacco, and yet lived a long life. He was a centegenarian when he died. What we are saying when we discuss the risks of cancer and smoking is that one's probability of getting cancer is higher, not that getting cancer is inevitable. This distinction is important and is generally missed by our risk illiterate public.

Some people argue on epidemiological grounds - although they are widely disputed on religious grounds - that low level radiation helps to stimulate the natural repair mechanisms that exist on a cellular level. This, it is argued, can have health effects that are beneficial. I am agnostic on this issue because I recognize that epidemiological inferences can be complicated by hidden variables.

I don't know if one should actually desire to be irradiated to a certain point. I attempt to sensibly - although not hysterically - to minimize my own exposure. Although I have worked appreciably with radioisotopes in the past, I still ride on airplanes and sometimes go to high altitudes. I get dental xrays. I sat with my son when he had a huge series of full body x-rays when he was 4 years old in connection with a Barium study of his alimentary tract. These practices expose me to higher levels of radiation than I would otherwise experience. On the other hand, I do try to mitigate the radon problem in my basement, which is measurable and real.

As for the effects of large unintentional releases of radioactivity I can say that when Chernobyl exploded, I expected huge numbers of injuries to occur in Kiev, a very large city not far from the plant. In fact, despite being near the worst nuclear accident in history - probably the worst nuclear accident that is possible - Kiev is still a vibrant city where millions of people still lead useful lives. There has not been wide scale death at unusual rates in the city. Therefore my fears were unrealized. This outcome lead me to change my views of nuclear energy entirely.

One of the front lines in discussions of radiation effects is the Sellafield reprocessing plant in the UK. One can read on the Greenpeace site (I think) that everyone is Sellafield will die (this is actually true - although not for the implied reasons - because of the now famous leaky pipe or because of the mere existence of the reprocessing plant.) One can read elsewhere that Sellafield workers have abnormally low cancer rates.

(Note that there was a Chernobyl type graphite fire reactor accident near Sellafield in 1957, in a weapons production reactor there: This certainly represents a complicating factor.)

We have heard recently a great deal about this recently discovered leaky pipe at the Sellafield reprocessing plant in the Cumbria Lake district in the UK. It would seem that the folks who keep raising this issue expect that everyone in Cumbria will die from this "tragedy," about which they obsess, apparently to distract themselves from real issues like global climate change. They want nuclear energy banned because the pipe has leaked.

Actually though, everyone in Cumbria has NOT died from this leaky pipe, although - as mentioned - surely everyone in Cumbria will die sooner or later. In fact, Cumbria, a beautiful place, remains a popular tourist attraction:

http://www.virtual-lakes.co.uk/menuphoto2.htm

Here is link of some stock photographs of Cumbria, including one of a so called "nuclear waste" container at Sellafield:

http://www.stockphotography.co.uk/store/app/f.asp?PT=148

Note that the grass immediately adjacent to the container is not dead, even though it depends, like all eucaryotic life, on DNA for its existence. In fact none of the vegetation in the picture is dead. There are not huge piles of dead human bodies on the container either, even though some very stupid people have remarked that so called "nuclear waste" is "dangerous" because you may die if you stand next to it. The container just sits there, more or less doing nothing. This small container, probably the result of powering millions of homes for periods of years, should be contrasted with mercury, lead, carbon dioxide and other coal related pollutants, which certainly are doing something.

Whether or not radiation can be good for you - whether it is good for you under some circumstances and bad for you under others - is not actually the point. Even if it bad for you all of the time, we have to ask ourselves how bad it actually is in comparison to its alternatives. It is very clear based on experience that the risks associated with radiation are vastly over-estimated by an increasingly stupefied public, while the risks associated with other energy related technologies are vastly understated.

Thanks for asking.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hormesis is fairy tale nonsense
The International Commission on Radiological Protection (ICRP) doesn't accept it.

The (US) National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements (NCRP) doesn't accept it.

The (US) National Research Council Committees on the Biological Effects of Ionizing Radiation (the BEIR Committees within the National Academy of Sciences) don't accept it.

The Health Physics Society doesn't accept it...

http://hps.org/hpspublications/papers.html#position

(download the pdf "Radiation Risk in Perspective")

also...

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q10.html

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q87.html

Hormesis = Quackery...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. So affecting different cells different ways create many types of cancer.
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 10:44 PM by Massacure
I've heard that the area around Chernobyl has since turned into a beautiful nature reserve. I assume this would explain that then.

Enki mentioned that fast dividing cells are more prone to mutations than slow ones. This would explain why trees live well. But what about the animals. Doesn't shorter lives necessarily mean faster cell division?
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
6. and if nukeplant waste is so good for people..
why dont we just toss it into rivers or something? why bother containing it at all? theres no need for yucca mountain.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-05 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Because it is not very smart to throw away useful materials.
Edited on Sun Jun-19-05 08:10 PM by NNadir
I won't explain this to you, because I know you won't get it.

Now let's ask this, if coal ash is so good for people, why don't we just dump in our rivers?

We do?

Oh.

I guess it's OK then.

If carbon dioxide is so good for our atmosphere, why don't we just dump in our atmosphere until all the glaciers providing drinking water to more than 2/3's of humanity melt?

We are?

Oh good. I, for one am greatly relieved.

I suppose that nuclear waste, which can easily be contained becasue of its high energy density for billions of years, as shown at the Oklo reactors, is worse because it has the word "nuclear" in it.

People are scared shitless of that word. For instance, they acquiesced to wholesale random murder in Iraq because George Bush and his cronies kept repeating the mantra "Saddam Hussein...nuclear...Saddam Hussein...nuclear..." I didn't matter that this was all slickly marketed lies piled on sick emotion, what mattered is that murder incited. Innocents, numbering in the tens of thousands, were killed in their homes.

This is evidence that complete stupidity kills and can incite murder.

Like I say, all the time, Americans are going to get the poverty they deserve. The Chinese are building nuclear reactors at a very rapid rate. We, on the other hand, are reciting Greenpeace rosaries from the early 1970's. We can't think. We do indeed deserve what we are going to get. It is going to be very tragic, very hard, and very cruel.
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Throckmorton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-05 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. NNadir, me, and all the other nukes on DU salute you,
I wish I had 10% of your eloquence.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-05 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thanks for your support and the many fine comments I get via PM. n/t
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Is there anyway to recover that energy.
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 10:51 PM by Massacure
I know heat can be recovered from it, I thought that the heat becomes unnoticeable after a couple dozen or so years. I don't see how it could be recovered after millions of years short.

Could spent fuel be used in breeder reactors even though the reaction was started in a boiling or pressurized water reactor?
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-05 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Almost all of the material in so-called "nuclear waste" is recoverable...
and usuable.

Much of it is extremely valuable material. Japan will begin recovering the precious metals from their fission products in a few years, and most countries will soon or later get around to it.

Japan expects several hundreds of millions of dollars for their efforts. Primarily they will be recovering palladium, ruthenium and rhodium. The supply of rhodium in particular from so called "nuclear waste" easily exceeds the world supply obtainable from ores. Rhodium has no long lived neutron rich isotopes and is essentially pure Ru-103, the only stable isotope.

The heat from Sr-90 is easily recovered. Sr-90 exists in equilibrium with Y-90, which is a common element used in the treatment of cancer.

Uranium, the largest fraction of so called "nuclear waste," (generally around 97%) is a huge energy source.

There are many other examples, but there isn't enough time right now.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Uranium reprocessed from spent fuel is unusable
It contains 232-U (rendering it highly radioactive and difficult to handle) and 236-U (a fission poison that requires this material to be further enriched in its 235-U content at additional cost).

No nation that reprocesses spent fuel uses the recycled uranium - none.

The plutonium produced from the reprocessing of spent fuel is exorbitantly expensive and completely uneconomic.

Japan is wasting $20 billion on its Rokkasho reprocessing plant - they will never make back their investment.

Finally, North Korea is currently extracting a "valuable metal" from their spent fuel and using it to produce a "valuable national asset" - another milestone for the "Peaceful Atom"....

what horseshit....

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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-05 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. i know.. by saying that its "useful"
then we dont have to admit there are any problems, and we can still seek to bury under mountains where it can be forgotten and never used.

haha thanks for yet another great laugh nadir. your good for that at least =)

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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Who said you had to reprocess it to recover it???
Fast Breeders could fissil (is this even a word?) down all the unstable elements in it.

Perhaps NNadir knows something that we don't?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-22-05 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. That's nonsense and what does * know that others don't
besides manners and civility...
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. It is true that I have no manners and no civility.
Edited on Thu Jun-23-05 08:38 AM by NNadir
It's not like my opponents have these traits either. Usually they call me a liar, but since they can't do math at all, it is very easy to expose the complete weakness of their arguments. I on the other hand do math here all the time, because I can and because I know what I am talking about.

I am not a nice guy. I am particularly intolerant of people who are trying to kill my children's future by appeals of ignorance. I hate George W. Bush for instance, and am not at all ashamed of doing so. Now George W. Bush, helped by a doublespeak media, tries to deflect attention from his own weakness unto the "hatred" people like me have for him, but the fact is, he is behaving hatefully. It is perfectly OK to go for his intellectual and moral jugular. Doing so may save lives.

I also hold George Bush's intellectual equivalents in similar contempt. I am not ashamed of doing that either. It is perfectly OK to go for their intellectual and moral jugular. Doing so may save lives.

Now, my means of expressing my hatred of ignorance is not to be physically violent, since I am a pacificist. That said, I have no problem whatsoever examining the claims appealing to ignorance and holding them up to the ridicule they deserve. We can laugh these people off the world stage. I have no problem with being scathing with frauds. I see no reason to apply civility and manners to those who do not deserve civility and manners and who in fact - to the extent the apply them at all - apply them minimally themselves usually as a very thin veneer. This is true whether the subject is whether or not the Niger uranium purchases about which Dick Cheney et al screamed "nuclear! nuclear! nuclear!" in connection with Iraq, or whether it is an appeal to ignorance that claims 1 megawatt of cow shit generated power (at unrevealed costs) has solved the Greenhouse problem. These claims are ethically equivalent, since they kill people. They deserve contempt.

I may not be very nice, but I am usually very clear.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. "since they can't do math at all"
Really????

"I am particularly intolerant of people who are trying to kill my children's future by appeals of ignorance."

sickest straw man ever....

"I have no problem with being scathing with frauds"

I'm a molten salt guy - I will soon become fabulously rich with my advanced molten salt reactor design.

I also heavily contaminated my thyroid with 125-I over a three year period and controlled my contamination with iodized table salt.

Radiation is good for you.

Only nuclear power can save us from global warming.

LOL!!!!!




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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Pu is "exorbitant?" Let's do some math...
Edited on Thu Jun-23-05 08:12 AM by NNadir
Now, we know that the only means to make nuclear energy seem dangerous and expensive is completely avoid mathematics.

The world doesn't need plutonium of course, because fission resources are at this point, basically inexhaustible, which I suppose in the anti-environmental anti-nuclear Greenpeace world, is a bad thing, because in the Greenpeace world, the issues of only rich spoiled brats are important. Poverty doesn't matter. The future doesn't matter. The present doesn't matter.

Now, it happens to be true that plutonium is much, much, more expensive than uranium. Sometimes anti-environmental anti-nuclear activists stumble inadvertently, in spite of enormous stupidity, on the truth.

However, as energy compared with other fuels, plutonium is not very expensive at all. Now, for the purposes of addressing exactly how stupid anti-environmental anti-nuclear activists are, I have made a new policy of pretending that the nuclear case is much, much, much worse than it actually is, so I'm going to pretend that uranium is 100 times more expensive than it actually is, and that plutonium is 100 times more expensive than uranium. In other words, I'm going to pretend that plutonium costs $130,000/kg! This is 130 times the actual price.

http://bcsia.ksg.harvard.edu/publication.cfm?ctype=book&item_id=351

Everybody can compare a fuel to the price of gasoline, because most of us are familiar with what gasoline costs. A gallon of gasoline has, as I mentioned elsewhere in connection with exposing anti-environmental, anti-nuclear stupidity, 32 million joules of thermal energy in it.

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html

So now we need to compare the energy value of one kilo of plutonium at $130,000/kg with the price of gasoline to get a "per gallon price" for plutonium.

Let's calculate!

(I will use the xEy notation for scientific notation in which x is the mantissa and y is the exponent of 10.)

One kilo of plutonium has 1000 grams. Since plutonium has 239 grams per mole we have 4.18 moles of plutonium. Multiplying by Avogadro's number, 6.02E23, we have 2.52E24 atoms of plutonium. Each fission event produces about 200E6 eV (electron volts) of energy. Thus one kilo of plutonium completely fissioned produces 5.04E32 eV of energy. The conversion factor between eV and joules is simply the charge on an electron, e, 1.602E-19 coulombs. Thus multiplying 5.04E23 times 1.602E-19 we have that one kilo of plutonium contains 8.07E13 joules of energy. Since gasoline contains 32E6 joules, one kilo of plutonium is the energy equivalent of 611,000 gallons of gasoline.

Dividing $130,000, the price I am pretending that plutonium actually is, even though it really is much lower, by 611,000 gallons we see that the price of plutonium would be the equivalent of gasoline at $0.21/gallon.

The reason plutonium is not used is that right now, uranium is so cheap, less than 1 cent a gallon, gasoline cost equivalent. The reason that uranium is cheap is because there is so much of it. Personally, I believe that we should use plutonium and just pay the extra money, because it is not always the case that the cheapest solution is the most ethical solution. Even if we don't need the plutonium now, future generations will. We should accept some of the burden now, because these are our children, our grandchildren, our great great great grandchildren. In any case, the cost of fuel is trivial, whether we use plutonium, uranium, or thorium, all of which represent enormous energy resources.

Now, in the sullen world of stupid people who are paranoid about nuclear energy because they don't understand it (something they reveal every time they try to say something on the subject), a surfeit of a resource is a bad thing. But the use of nuclear energy, for those who do understand it, is not a technical problem; it is not a safety problem; it is not much of an environmental problem on the scale of environmental problems we face - the biggest being global climate change. The problem for those who oppose nuclear eneergy on the other hand is an emotional problem; a dogma problem; a religious problem and an ignorance problem.

Nuclear energy is not without risks. It is not without cost. However there is NO form of energy without risks and costs. Nuclear energy is the simply the form of energy where risks and costs are minimal. Thus it is the one we MUST choose. It is not merely stupid to oppose nuclear energy; it is immoral.

Personally, I'm not prepared to kill my planet because weak minded people can't do math and can't think. I already have enough of a problem with George Bush.

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. "fission resources are at this point, basically inexhaustible"
LOL!!!!!!

Gee, got a peer reviewed reference for this fairy tale???

You don't???

Didn't think so.

I call bullshit

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
23. I'm sure you do call bullshit.
Before we get to challenging the geologic availability of uranium and thorium, subjects that I have covered many times here, let's return to the question of whether plutonium is expensive.

My opponents usually change the subject when I have exposed the complete weakness of their previous claim, in this case, that "plutonium is too expensive." This is tiresome. Revealing but tiresome.

Can you do some calculations that refute my calculations above? Is my value for the energy content of plutonium wrong? The value for the charge on a electron wrong? Do some calculations to show us you know what you are talking about.

You can't?

I didn't think so.

Now you want to "call bullshit." Give us some reason, through calculation, through demonstration, that we should care what you think bullshit is.

I recall discussing the subject of whether or not U-238 was sometimes fissioned by thermal neutrons. I gave a clear reference from the scientific literature, but it was very, very, very clear that the person to whom it was addressed was completely incompetant to understand what it said. Thus my effort was a complete waste of time (except of course that others did get it).
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. No reference
I win

:)
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-23-05 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Let's check your math
"I'm going to pretend that plutonium costs $130,000/kg!"

The defunct West Valley (NY) spent fuel reprocessing plant produced 1926 kg of plutonium over the course of its operation.

It will cost taxpayers $4-8 billion to decommission this facility and dispose of the high level liquid waste it produced.

The actual cost of plutonium from this plant is thus $2-4 million per kilogram...(not $130,000).

Pretend indeed...

"A gallon of gasoline has, as I mentioned elsewhere in connection with exposing anti-environmental, anti-nuclear stupidity, 32 million joules of thermal energy in it."

from the website linked...

Gasoline: US gallon = 115,000 Btu = 121 MJ = 32 MJ/liter (LHV). HHV = 125,000 Btu/gallon = 132 MJ/gallon = 35 MJ/liter

32 MJ/gallon vs. 132 MJ/gallon...off by an order of magnitude...

"Thus one kilo of plutonium completely fissioned produces 5.04E32 eV of energy"

In Fairy-Tale-Land plutonium in MOX fuel achieves 100% burn-up - in real MOX fuel only ~25% burn-up is achieved (due to the build-up of fission products).

I see no need to go further in this analysis - it is truly pathetic...


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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
9. If you want to think about cancer, you should think about ..
.. cancer as a collection of different diseases involving failure of cell growth-regulation mechanisms combined with genetic damage.

Most cells in higher organisms must reproduce themselves in order to allow for replacement of damaged tissue. However, this reproduction must occur in a regulated fashion: cell reproduction must occur only when needed; moreover, the right sort of cell must be produced -- you don't want a heart muscle cell replacing a damaged liver cell.

The world is a hazardous place for our cells: not only cell machinery, but also cell genetic libraries are regularly damaged by environmental factors. The damage can sometimes be repaired as it occurs. But not all damage is repaired.

Higher organisms also have mechanisms for eliminating malfunctional cells. Apoptosis (or cell suicide) occurs, and in some cases this suicide occurs because neighbors have sent chemical signals instructing the cell to self-destruct. The immunological system can also attack and destroy mutant cells: this explains why, for example, moles and other dermatological abnormalities may suddenly disappear.

Cancer typically involves cells which are growing unchecked and which have lost correct differentiation (so the wrong type of cell grows in a particular location). The most invasive cancers encourage blood vessel formation (angiogenesis) which provides nutrients to the cancer; when angiogenesis does not occur, the tumor mass may not obtain enough nutrition to grow quickly.

Here is a possible model of carcinogenesis: it is a multistage process. Cells accumulate mutations and thus lose some vital grow-regulatory mechanism. As a result, cells begin to grow unchecked. Some are shutdown by apoptosis or by immune system attack. But if there is enough damage, the apoptotic mechanism may be lost; moreover, only certain mutations will produce cells which the immune system attacks. And if, for example, cell repair mechanisms were damaged or if there was continuing exposure to an environmental mutagen, then there can be continuing mutation combined with unchecked cell growth -- which means that the renegade cell colony will begin to evolve for better survival.

This model qualitatively explains, for example, why cancers generally occur long after the exposure: enough damage must occur for the cancer to develop, and this generally involves repeated insults over an extended period; similarly, it explains why repeated insults (years of smoking or repeated exposures to carcinogens) more obviously result in disease than one-time exposures.

It is unlikely that there is one single mechanism by which radiation kills cancer cells, because cancer cells are atypical. In some cases, the chemical damage done by a number of ionization tracks is so substantial that the cell simply ceases to function: to achieve this sort of damage, the beam is aimed at the tumor from a number of different sides so as to limit damage to surrounding normal cells. But because cancer cells are abnormal from the start, it is also likely in some ways that the cells are more fragile and more easily disrupted than normal cells: despite the fact that a cancer cell did not properly commit cell suicide in one context, it may be possible to trick the cell into committing suicide in another context.

I don't think your question has a short simple answer, but if you must have a short overly simple answer, it would go something like this: the processes by which radiation exposure ultimately leads to cancer occur over many cell generations (typically over many years), whereas cell death from acute radiation exposure occurs almost immediately in comparison (typically with a few days). In particular, radiation therapy may help create further cancer in future years, but the patient choosing the therapy has presumably considered the trade-off ...
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Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-05 10:39 PM
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11. Thanks for bumping this thread. I nearly forgot I asked about cancer.
Edited on Tue Jun-21-05 10:41 PM by Massacure
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