Electric Vehicles or Compressed Air Vehicles?

[Motown_Johnny]

I know that the electric car is hailed as the wave of the future. I just don't thank the battery technology will ever be to a point where they can recharge quickly enough to make the electric car a main stay in our society. I know there are plans to create vehicles which can swap out batteries so you don't need to recharge it but that has problems of it's own.

Based on convenience and the ease of converting infrastructure it seems to me that the CAV is not getting enough attention.

If we simply passed one law requiring gas stations (of a certain size or larger) to provide one air compressor capable of refueling a CAV, for a fee, it would seem to me that the infrastructure for a clean energy vehicle would be in place. If these compressors had some type of air filter then they could actually help reduce air pollution instead of contributing to it.


I am not saying that they are the "silver bullet" for our future transportation needs, I just think that they don't get enough attention. I can only assume this is because that some corporations have spent so much money trying to develop battery technology that they need to see a return on their investment so something as simple as compressed air is suppressed.



http://www.mdi.lu/english/cityflowair.php

[positrac]

1. Compressed air vehicles are way beyond stupid.

They depend on 2 extra energy conversion steps to 'fuel' the car. BAD BAD idea.

[Warpy]

2. If the press release I read a couple of months ago

on the carbon nanotube/lead/acid battery pans out, the problems of battery storage, battery lifespan and recharge turnaround time will be nearly solved.

As for compressed air stations, they could conceivably be solar and wind powered, although it would take a lot of air at a high pressure to give such a vehicle much range, at all--meaning a lot of power would need to be used.

I sincerely doubt any one technology will be enough to suit all needs. Likely we'll have electric vehicles for short hops and rent gas vehicles for long trips. People in flyover country will need to stick to gas vehicles unless the battery problems are addressed adequately.

My own second car is an electric moped. It's great for the city.

[NNadir]

3. Um...um...um...

...can we have a third option, like recognizing that there is no way to save the stupid car culture, especially by rehashing dumb 34 year old compressed air bull from Amory Lovins?

How many years, exactly, do we have to listen to compressed air bull before people concede that it's bull.

Quoth the scientifically illiterate Lovins in um, 1976:

In industry, wind-generated compressed air can easily (and, with due care, safely) be stored to operate machinery: the technology is simple, cheap, reliable and highly developed. (Some cities even used to supply compressed air as a standard utility.) Installing pipes to distribute hot water (or compressed air) tends to be considerably cheaper than installing equivalent electric distribution capacity.

Lovins, Asshole, "The Road Not Taken" Foreign Affairs, Summer 1976, pg 83.

After mouthing this stupid soothsaying prediction - whatever happened to that "easy" compressed air - Lovins entered into a Ponzi scheme with investors to produce the hydrogen HYPErcar that will be in showrooms by 2005.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/10/1016_TVhypercar.html

(Why do we need so many car salesmen?)

In Environ. Sci. Technol. 2005, 39, 1903-1911, Paul Denholm told us that we "could" have wind powered compressed air power plants if - why is this no surprise - we helped the compressed air along with some, um, dangerous natural gas, dumping the resultant dangerous fossil fuel waste in that favorite dump of anti-nukes, the atmosphere.

How about we recognize the truth, that the car CULTure is not sustainable and that all the Rube Goldberg denial contraptions will not make it so.

[ixion]

5. well, public transporation isn't going to solve everything, either

there are logistical and pragmatic caveats, as well as cultural ones there, too.

[comtec]

12. Same thing that happened to the EV-1 I imagine

and you're condescending tone does your point no good.

how can a nader supporter be so agaisnt a reasonable compromise... or right, because you're a nader supporter.

[frog92969]

4. Well...I liked the idea

But may be better for 2 wheels than 4.

[excess_3]

6. compressed air, energy density is pitifully low ..nt

[bhikkhu]

7. If you want an example of an idea that just can't work

its compressed air as energy storage. There's a number of reasons, but the main one is that even at very high pressures it has a relatively low energy potential. The other one would be the very low efficiency of air operated motors.

[AdHocSolver]

8. Until the early 1950's, many U.S. cities had effective mass transit systems.

The auto, oil, and allied industries were successful in eliminating light rail (trolley cars) and replacing mass transit with a heavily taxpayer subsidized road construction system that paved over America and brought the U.S. urban sprawl, extreme pollution, global climate change, and a huge trade deficit from importing oil.

Interested parties can read about it in Edwin Black's book "Internal Combustion".

[eppur_se_muova]

19. Check out the documentary "Taken for a Ride", now available online ...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2486235784907931000#

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. Compressed air would last a few seconds.

[comtec]

13. There have been extensive trials in Australia on this (and loads of science shows too)

lots that have a small fleet of air vehicles.

The reality is that you can't really go fast fro long, and they won't be on Top gear, but for putting around town a air car would be sufficient...

and the thing everyone always over looks is that an electric or even a air car can be easily refueled by human power.

Put an emergency pedal/charge/air system on the back bumper (when stopped) and you can recharge your car.

For people who like to go into the woods, and are probably bikers anyway, I can see this as a desirable set up. In the night before going to bed, you charge your car for the next morning.

Humans are better at energy usage than any battery anyway (think body fat).

I could even see a strange setup where you have pedal systems in the passenger seat where the passenger can pedal a more basic system to add energy back into the system - that could only work for electric of course)

Even a basic bicycle pump would be handy when in a desperate situation and you need a bit more mileage (like 3) out of your auto.

Not something that should be so easily discarded. Additionally, in the end all the power used would be human, and the only 'exhaust' would be from that bean burrito you had earlier... ;)

Which is why we;ll probably never see it beyond the odd prototype stage.

[Ready4Change]

24. That would be a LOT of pumping.

At least if you're thinking of pumping it up to what we currently think of as an operating car.

What we currently think of as cars are quite dependent on very dense energy storage. Moving 1-4 people, 60mph takes a LOT more energy than a human can reasonably provide. It's not even close.

Think about it. What's the average speed of a bicycle in the Tour d'France? (about 25mph?) How far do they travel in a stage? (Flat stages, maybe 150 miles.) That's the result of a single person, in top notch athletic condition, using his major muscle groups in a most efficient fashion, for 6 hours, on flat terrain. That athlete is still 35mph too slow, and he's not taking 1-3 other people along for the ride. (And very few of us are in that kind of physical condition.)

If you're thinking of something other than what we currently call 'a car', then we already have those. They are called bicycles, and they work pretty darn good. But they aren't cars.

[tinrobot]

10. Show me a working prototype that can go more than a few miles.

According to Wikipedia:

Early tests have demonstrated the limited storage capacity of the tanks; the only published test of a vehicle running on compressed air alone was limited to a range of 7.22 km

also:
A 2005 study demonstrated that cars running on lithium-ion batteries out-perform both compressed air and fuel cell vehicles more than three-fold at the same speeds.<4> MDI has recently claimed that an air car will be able to travel 140 km in urban driving, and have a range of 80 km with a top speed of 110 km/h (68 mph) on highways,<5> when operating on compressed air alone, but in as late as mid 2009, MDI has still not produced any proof to that effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_car

You can buy electric cars today that have ranges up to 200 miles. Don't see any compressed air cars available or even close to being available.

[OKIsItJustMe]

15. OK, although I'm also skeptical of compressed air…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln9hk6kZ_E0
http://www.youtube.com/user/CATvolution

[tinrobot]

17. There's no doubt compressed air engines work.

I've seen the videos as well. Most of them have people standing around pointing to the cars and then taking a short spin around the block. What I've yet to see is one of a compressed air car driving any significant distance or speed. Most likely this is because compressed air has low energy density, making speed/distance a real issue.

I'm a skeptic, but I'd certainly love someone to prove me wrong. Drive it on major roads from Paris to Brest or something. Prove it has the speed to keep up and can also go the distance.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. I can meet about 98% or more of my driving needs with any of 3 electric vehicles expected to be on

the road within a year. Damn near all of it. My job and everyone I give a shit about is within driving range without a recharge. I just need the price to come down a bit, near the range of gas powered vechicles of similar body type.

Granted the electric versions will be intrinsically more valuable, in saved maintenence and fuel costs, but I just can't drop 50 grand on a car.

The technology is here, now, I just can't afford it yet.

Compressed air? Thanks, I'd rather do electric than drive around a giant bomb.

[comtec]

14. I would seriously consider the electric Ta-Ta when it comes out

well whenever it gets around to Europe anyway.

I know, india, evil, etc. But I don't need a car here for much more than puttering around town. Anything longer (big city wise anyway) and I use the Trains. if it's out of town, we have a Caddy (made by VW look it up)

I see cars like the TaTa as ideal for europe and small town situations. short to medium ranged vehicles that are electric, and - ideally - use solar cells for slow recharging when not in use.

[kristopher]

18. I have just what you need...

Honda unveils battery-powered unicycle
Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:00am EDT
http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-GreenBusiness/idUSTRE58N0SZ20090924

TOKYO (Reuters Life!) - Honda Motor Co has unveiled an electric battery-powered personal transporter, a unicycle shaped like the number eight that riders steer by leaning in the direction they want to travel.

The "U3-X," which Honda will show at the Tokyo Motor Show next month, is the latest to join a growing number of futuristic transportation devices, such as the much bigger Segway.

But while the Segway has been used outdoors and in big buildings, the 65 cm (2 ft 2 inch) tall Honda machine is small enough and light enough to use at home.

Honda's machine has a one-wheeled, "8"-shaped body on which the rider sits and changes direction by leaning forward, backward or sideways. It moves at a maximum speed of 6 kph (3.7 mph), about the pace of brisk walk.

The self-balancing U3-X, weighing in at less than 10 kg (22 lb), is powered by a lithium-ion battery and runs for an hour per charge.

Honda Chief Executive Takanobu Ito told reporters the machine could one day become the smallest means of transportation for human beings, though it is purely in the development stage and the automaker has no plans to start selling them now.

Ito said the U3-X's small size would make it an ideal indoor transport device.

"If my legs get a little weak, I would like to have this around in my house. It's easy to move around," said the 56-year-old CEO.

[madokie]

21. I want

one of these. I have PAD and it limits my walking so this would be the perfect machine to go with my own personal home built yard buggy

[kristopher]

22. I don't know if I could handle it...

My efforts with a unicycle have always been total failures, but both of my daughters took to them like a duck to water.

[madokie]

23. Sure you could

I haven't been on a unicycle but I'm betting I could get the hang of it if I tried.

[OKIsItJustMe]

20. “I'd rather do electric than drive around a giant bomb.”

You’re worried about what might happen in an accident. (Right?)

I’m just curious, do you drive a gasoline fueled car? Do you worry about it much?

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Large amounts of compressed air, versus 10 gallons of gasoline is no comparison at all.

Rupture a fuel tank, and it MAY catch on fire and BURN. Rupture an air tank, and it WILL explode, immediately.

No burns, but shrapnel sucks.

[One_Life_To_Give]

16. Coming to america in 2004. make that 5, err 6...

Who knows, maybe it's not a scam. But the product of an inventive genius who can't admit his idea is not going to produce results. Regardless investing in this is probably even worse than having invested in 1915 EV's.

[Fledermaus]

25. Compressed air is being used in hybrid vehicles and it works better than electric hybrids.

Many people know about hydraulic hybrids. Fewer understand the true energy storage medium. Compressed Nitrogen is the energy storage medium and it works better than electrics for regenerative braking. The payback is much better for hydraulic hybrid, and it will be interesting to see how the two hybrid technologies perform in the market place over the next few years.

HHV How it Works Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPSob1gH_wk&feature=player_embedded

BMW 530i Digital Displacement Hybrid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJw5AvvxBqg&feature=player_embedded