National Geographic: 4,000+ Japan Whale Harvest Not Justified, Experts Say

[Omaha Steve]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/080902-japan-whaling.html?source=rss

Ker Than
for National Geographic News
September 2, 2008

A new study by Japan's national whale-research program is drawing sharp rebuke from scientists and conservationists who say the results did not necessitate killing more than 4,000 whales.

Critics have long accused Japan of using its scientific whaling program to circumvent a 1986 moratorium on commercial whaling by the International Whaling Commission (IWC).




In the new research, Kenji Konishi of Japan's Institute of Cetacean Research and his colleagues analyzed data from 4,704 Antarctic minke whales killed by the Japanese Whale Research Program (JARPA) from 1987 to 2005.

They concluded that the thickness of the whales' blubber decreased by 3.6 millimeters (0.14 inch), or about 9 percent, during the 18-year period.

The Japanese team suggests the thinning blubber may be due to either global warming-related reductions in ocean krill populations, competition by other whale species, or a combination of the two factors.

The minke whales killed by JARPA were preserved for study or openly sold as meat on the Japanese market, as is allowed under IWC regulations.

The study is detailed online in a recent edition of the journal Polar Biology.

"Crude" and Unnecessary

FULL 2 page story at link.

[flvegan]

1. "Crude" and Unnecessary...yep, that about sums it up.

See you in the Antarctic, assholes.

[stuntcat]

2. omg what a horrible picture

:cry: "Crude" is too nice a word for them, their whole country should be ashamed of this.
I feel shame every day over my country raping the environment.. they should feel shame every day over mass-killing those whales.

[kristopher]

3. You mean like we feel shame over the pigs and cows we kill?

Have you any idea how many animals we kill for food each year? They don't share your values about the whales being special, so when you criticize them based on that value do you really think it is going to be effective or is it going to cause you to be viewed by Japan as a hypocrite?

I think whales are special and want the whaling to stop; BUT I'm 'ashamed' of my fellow countrymen for their arrogance and hypocrisy on this issue. Considering that Norway is equally invested in whaling and considering that 99% of the negative attention is devoted to criticizing the Japanese, I honestly believe it has its roots in racism.

[stuntcat]

4. okay listen.. I haven't eaten meat in years.

And I have seen what happens in factory farms, it made me sick forever.
If everyone had to witness what happened they would not stand for it.

If you really think I'M arrogant and a hypocrite then you're wrong. I respect animals (each of them) way more than humans. Maybe that sounds silly but it's true, I've had to be honest about it a couple of times here before when people tried to pick apart my opinions about animals.

I'm real sorry if I said anything to sound racist to you. I'd sleep fine if all of Norway were wiped out forever if it meant the whales would be left alone.

That was smooth calling me stuff without knowing me.. I can't remember the last time I've done that to anyone at DU..

[kristopher]

6. I'm not speaking specifically to you any more than your remarks about Japan

I'm not speaking specifically to you any more than your remarks about Japan or Norway were directed at individuals. I stand by the statement on racism. You can't escape the burden of sharing in the responsibility your own nations actions. Try reading my post for its actual content instead of as a personal attack. I know that snark prevails here, but that wasn't what was intended.

[stuntcat]

8. maybe if ..

Maybe if it wasn't a reply to Me, and calling names and making accusations..

I am sensitive when it comes to animals. People though, not so much.

[stuntcat]

5. and yes, Shame does happen to be what I feel

I am ashamed of my entire species. I thought I'd made that clear ever since I joined DU. I'm being shown why continually all day every day.

[kristopher]

7. I'd say that is an issue for a professional to deal with...

It is also totally unrelated to the way you called on shame as a social motivator in your first post.

[stuntcat]

9. I am SORRY OKAY?

But I was not saying YOU need to feel shame. I mean what I said and it was response to the picture, which still horrifies me and yes, makes me ashamed.

I did NOT mean to offend you. ever. I guess I should just be quiet in this group, keep my feelings to myself. Thanks.

[stuntcat]

10. I do NOT take back a single word I said

But thanks for showing me, I shouldn't just be honest about my feelings here.

(maybe you've got me on ignore now, the last two fellas who fought with me over animals did.)

[kristopher]

12. There is no need for an apology

And I wouldn't want you to not share your feelings. I can understand them without sharing them, I think.

I very much would like to see the practice of whaling stopped with no exceptions and I view ill informed efforts such as represented by the OP to be much more a part of the problem than they are part of the solution. It really wasn't personally directed at you even though I understand perfectly it must seem that way.
I'm sure the thoughts you expressed are shared by many.

[stuntcat]

11. "I'd say that is an issue for a professional to deal with.."

just insulting

[kristopher]

13. Loathing humanity is a form of self loathing...

No insult intended.

[stuntcat]

14. ..

it is SOMETIMES a form of self-loathing. it's silly to make that assumption about ME though.

I have learned to much over the years about what we're doing to the planet, what my species causing a mass-extinction means, what we're doing to our own future, what the quadrupling of our population is doing to the life of this planet. I'll try to remember your assumption about self-loathing was just compassionate :) it does not apply to me though. I am not too proud of my species ("his image" my ass) but personally I'm one of the best examples.

[kristopher]

15. Good that I'm off target.

I'd ask you to please bear in mind the view of Japan I've shared. Once they quit the IWC, there is little chance we will have access to another forum where we can influence their behavior on this matter.

[XemaSab]

52. Why are you such a fucking asshole all the time?

Look, prostitutes aren't that expensive. Maybe you should go patronize one instead of taking out your frustrations on people here.

I'll even start a collection for you.

Anyone is welcome to PM me to contribute to the "Getting kristopher laid so he's less of an asshole all the time" fund.

[stuntcat]

16. just to effing make myself very clear:

I don't hold ANY country above ANY other. Or any people above any other.

If putting a fellow Democrat down will raise your spirits, have at it, but try to stick with name-calling and insults for animal-lovers or environmental extremists because that's all I am and ALL I care about. It's gotten me in fights here before though, I've been warned not to be honest about my feelings, especially for animals.

[kristopher]

17. You made yourself clear much earlier.

But since you persist I have to ask a question, if you are so concerned about the critters why do all your posts focus on you and your various forms of anguish?

[stuntcat]

19. now you're just being insulting

Anyone who cares for the animals and the planet (not so much the humans) would have anguish.

If insulting me is accomplishing so much then fine, have at it. I'm not sure what the point of all this has been, I was just letting out my feeling, which was honest.

[kristopher]

20. Actually, I tried to discuss how to stop Japan from whaling

You made it all about you...

[stuntcat]

21. you responded to me and

called names, made accusations.. and then you got personal. What purpose did all that serve?

[kristopher]

23. "Me, me, me..."

[stuntcat]

25. it is true.

Hello, you responded to me with your accusing crap. then you went even further with it, to ME. now you're just tossing out insult after insult. I was not looking for attention. I guess I wasn't even looking for understanding, I was just honest for a second, about FEELINGS, ooo I guess I should keep little pointless FEELINGS to myself. Thanks for all your attention.

"me me me" :eyes:

[stuntcat]

24. FINE

we can't be honest here without being put down by people we mostly agree with. I've been shown this over and over since I came to DU but I guess I forgot.. probably since I saw that picture. I should have walked away and not risked starting a big fight by being honest. Thanks.

[GliderGuider]

18. I'm nostalgic for Barry Goldwater this morning

"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."

I accuse those who support cajoling Japan to the conference table of "moderation in the pursuit of justice."

The rights of the voiceless creatures that share our planet's web of life are ill served by human systems of justice, couched as they are in the dualistic view of a world consisting purely of humans beings and resources. It's time for less pusillanimous voices to be heard in defense of the defenseless.

[kristopher]

22. Ahhh such grand eloquence

destined to make the speaker feel superior while getting more whales killed.

[Nihil]

26. Beats the crap out of being an apologist for the Japanese ...

Are you pretending that you actually *care* about whales being killed
or is it just another "eloquent" way of defending the indefensible?

[kristopher]

27. What do you know of the Japanese and the history of the IWC?

Where did you get you knowledge of Japanese behavior?

Perhaps you'd like to point to the initiatives that have attempted to curb Japanese whaling?

Perhaps you could explain the success or failure of such efforts?

In other word, not yet has one person addressed the specifics of my post explaining the failure of these negotiations.

Instead, all we hear is defensive mumbo-jumbo and mindless, baseless attacks.

Are you really as much a foe of the reality based community as your post indicates?

[Nihil]

28. Some answers for you Mr Apologist:

> What do you know of the Japanese and the history of the IWC?

Most of my knowledge of the Japanese history with the IWC comes
from your links (during past threads). (They were usually quite
informative thank you.)


> Where did you get you knowledge of Japanese behavior?

Individual: From interaction with Japanese people here & online.
Cultural: Largely from my BIL who was living over there for ~9 years.


> Perhaps you'd like to point to the initiatives that have attempted
> to curb Japanese whaling?

I think Sea Shepherd & Greenpeace have had the most useful
initiatives over the last few years.

If you meant meaningless, long-winded & corrupt political attempts
then the word "initiative" really doesn't apply does it?


> Perhaps you could explain the success or failure of such efforts?

See http://www.seashepherd.org/ for details :-)
(Sorry, I forgot that this site will probably be blacklisted from
your normal place of work.)


> In other word, not yet has one person addressed the specifics of
> my post explaining the failure of these negotiations.

I'll have to go back to check but I thought quite a few people have
pointed out the uselessness of such "negotiations" given the lack of
political interest in the natural world when it comes into conflict
with any well-funded industry.


> Instead, all we hear is defensive mumbo-jumbo and mindless,
> baseless attacks.



> Are you really as much a foe of the reality based community as your
> post indicates?

Maybe you read the wrong post? I simply called you an apologist for
the Japanese whale slaughtering industry (along with their dolphin
slaughtering industry and their reef destroying industry).
These things are happening and are still being defended by people
who are *definitely* not members of the "reality-based community" ...

[kristopher]

29. Another post avoiding the facts and using personal attacks instead?

If you do indeed live in reality, why do you avoid the issue in favor of personal attacks?

Please explain how the the antiwhaling activists have been successful at actually STOPPING whaling? What I see is an effort by zealots that compares in all respects to those of antiabortion zealots. Lots of morally righteous indignation; lots of militant rhetoric and attacks on reason; but damned little success in actually achieving the goals of either reduced incidence of abortion or reduced take by whaling nations. You've already driven Norway out of the IWC and they are steadily increasing their take. Now Greenland and Japan are on the verge of following.
Precisely how in the FUCK does that constitute success??


Here is a post from another thread on EE started the same day as this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x171181#171329

"...why are you so sure Japan and others that are paying countries to join the commission to end the ban are honest good guys?"

You obviously know nothing of the history of this dispute. The reason Japan started recruiting non-interested nations for IWC membership was in RESPONSE the anti-whaling NGOs who started recruiting non-interested nations in order to get the moratorium passed. That is the truth. (Check it out if you don't believe me, google is your friend.)

It is clear from your comments that you haven't got a clue about what you are actually supporting or opposing. Here is the way things stand:
The people of Japan do not share our view of whales as anthropomorphic beings. You probably have the feeling that killing a whale is somehow a variant of 'murder'. The Japanese simply don't have that belief so they CAN'T embrace the same values you have on whaling.
To them, the moratorium on whaling is an unethical violation of the mission they agreed to when they helped form the IWC. In case you don't know what that mission was, it was (and still is) to manage world whale stocks as a source of food.
Since the IWC was formed, OUR values have changed and we've come to view whales (and some other species) as special creatures that should not be exploited for food.
The Non Governmental Organizations that embrace this view could not gain the votes to change the mission of the IWC.
Instead of accepting their minority status, they began a strategy of recruiting non-interested nations for membership in the IWC. To encourage them to join, they provided all administrative services and paid off those willing to join with the currency of American goodwill - a commodity that translates into real money through the various aid and loan programs administered by the UN.
The Japanese were outraged by this underhanded behavior that resulted in tpassing the moratorium - just as you are outraged when you (mistakenly) think they are pulling a fast one when they do it.
They have persisted in the 'scientific whaling' sham because they are convinced that OUR unethical behavior frees them from the obligation to behave ethically themselves.
WE established the mode of operations that took a legalistic view of the IWC rules; WE exploited technicalities and loopholes that CLEARLY were contrary to the SPIRIT of the original agreements upon which the IWC was founded.

Present day, Japan is ready to abandon the effort at a collaborative approach to whaling. They would prefer to not to, but they are ready to resign from the IWC and resume commercial whaling. These "secret" meetings are a last effort to work out a compromise; if they fail, Japan will resign from the IWC and resume commercial whaling. They will also, I am quite sure, have the Japanese Navy escort their whaling fleet in order to protect them from attacks by antiwhaling zealots intent on committing piracy against Japanese whaling ships.

You may think that those ships are operating under a moral imperative that justifies their illegal acts, but that view is not going to be effective at stopping the Japanese from either whaling or from protecting their whaling fleet.

The underhanded actions some antiwhaling groups combined with the militant actions by other antiwhaling groups, are a large part of the reason the Japanese are still whaling. If they had deliberately tried, their approach couldn't have been better designed to insult Japan and push it into a corner where they cannot back down without losing great face.

Paraphrasing something another the-ends-justifies-the-means person recently said, "Heck of a job, Stevie."

[SCBeeland]

30. How do you propose we stop whaling then?

[Nihil]

31. Yes, that's usually what you do (but you didn't need the question mark).

Why is it that when someone responds to you, you immediately
cry "personal attacks" and re-post the entire reply from a
different thread?

I read all of that stuff in the original location so there is
absolutely no need to copy & paste entire long-winded posts
like that.

> If you do indeed live in reality, why do you avoid the issue
> in favor of personal attacks?

It's a bit rich when you start your own reply not with any
response to the previous post's arguments but with personal
attacks ...

FWIW, the last "season" of anti-whaler action was very effective
in terms of reducing the number of whales slaughtered so yes,
that constitutes success.

The truth getting a bit painful for you is it?
:shrug:

[kristopher]

34. What you describe is exactly the kind of success McCain claims

What you describe is exactly the kind of success McCain claims when he says the surge worked.

Exactly.

[GliderGuider]

32. The Japanese are singularly good at recognizing and atoning for moral transgressions

You say, "The people of Japan do not share our view of whales as anthropomorphic beings. You probably have the feeling that killing a whale is somehow a variant of 'murder'. The Japanese simply don't have that belief so they CAN'T embrace the same values you have on whaling."

To me, that implies that you think all or the vast majority of Japanese share this viewpoint, and that they are incapable of changing it. I find both positions utterly incongruous coming from someone who endorses both personal ethical responsibility and the malleability of cultural viewpoints in other contexts.

Now, getting back to atonement. It would be entirely consistent with Japanese culture for Minoru Morimoto, Japan's IWC representative, to have a moral awakening on this issue. In addition, Japanese tradition would support his recanting, publicly and tearfully, a position he had come to realize was morally indefensible. It would traditionally follow that a ritual act of atonement would be required. One can only hope that the Japanese media would honour the traditions of their great nation and televise his seppuku.

[kristopher]

33. That is a comic book caricature.

And it is a patently obvious attempt to shift the context of the moral indiscretion away from the behavior of the NGOs and the militant anti-whaling faction.

Before you fantasize about the world adopting your developing (still fringe) morality, why don't you deal with the violations to the very widely accepted sense of fairness and honor represented by the NGO's maneuvering to establish the moratorium. I've read post after post after post after post of condescension and criticism of the Japanese based on their reaction to this violation.

Fair enough, it it a crappy thing to do to hire in disinterested parties so they will vote for your side.

So please, deal with the proposition that the Japanese are indeed the wronged party.

Some one asked in another post what I proposed as a solution.

Isn't it pretty obvious?

Apologize to them in a way that allows them to back out with grace.

It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done.

[GliderGuider]

35. It has probably not escaped your attention

That I'm fully on the side of "the NGOs and the militant anti-whaling faction". There is no moral indiscretion on their part as far as I'm concerned. The only wronged party in this whole dispute is the whales.

Fuck the Japanese sensibilities, let them grow up on their own and join the 21st century with the rest of us. Until they do that, they'll just have to deal with the opprobrium of those whose conscience extends to other species as well as our own. Regarding your suggestion that we apologize to them, I have a policy of not apologizing if I'm not wrong. I'm funny that way.

Whales aren't resources.

[kristopher]

36. I see.

Your much more worried about protecting your social investment than you are in actually doing something productive to prevent the killing of whales.

There is no middle ground, when your ACTIONS are producing a result that is contrary to your stated goals, and you know it yet stand by those actions, then your stated goal is a falsehood and the actual motive is something else.

You don't give a shit about the whales.

[GliderGuider]

37. Nice twist.

That's your spin on my position.

I'm not buying what you're selling. I don't like the smell.

[kristopher]

38. It isn't spin.

It is simply applying consistency.

I'd be happy to hear where I've falsified the facts or applied inconsistent standards in my analysis of the whaling issue. If there were such a deficiency you know as well as I do that it would have been brought out by now.


I hate to keep going back to the actions of abortion protesters, but they clearly demonstrate the same wrongheaded prioritization of a engaging with a social network based belief system over achieving the stated goals of the purported beliefs.

Look, let's drop this. I know you care about what happens to the whales, and you know I'm right about the historical and present circumstances. You don't care, but you can't change those facts so we have nowhere to go.

[GliderGuider]

39. OK, now I'm confused

You say:

The people of Japan do not share our view of whales as anthropomorphic beings. You probably have the feeling that killing a whale is somehow a variant of 'murder'. The Japanese simply don't have that belief so they CAN'T embrace the same values you have on whaling.

Notwithstanding the fact that anti-whalers don't actually "anthropomorphize" whales, the statement above made me start wondering about Japanese culture. Was it possible that they really didn't see whales (and possibly by extension other creatures) as anything other than resources? Do the Japanese, as a nation and a people, actually have a cultural trait that makes this viewpoint a historical inevitability? It seemed odd to me that an entire people would not believe that large mammals are special in some way. Most cultures have some degree of reverence (or at least special consideration) for such creatures.

As I pondered this, I wondered what Shinto had to say on the subject of nature. Now, I didn't know much about Shinto except that it's an ancient belief system that straddles religion and philosophy, and that it's deeply embedded in Japanese culture. So like a good primitivist I immediately hit Google. Imagine my surprise to find this:

Shinto Faith Statement

This statement was prepared by the Jinja Honcho, the representative body of all Shinto Shrines in Japan.

"In the beginning of the universe there appeared various Kami, or deities from the chaos. A pair of male and female deities appeared at the end and gave birth first to islands, their natural environment, and then to several more deities who became ancestors of the Japanese."

The Kami
The ancient Japanese considered that all things of this world have their own spirituality, as they were born from the divine couple. Therefore, the relationship between the natural environment of this world and people is that of blood kin, like the bond between brother and sister.

The Children of Kami
Shinto regards that the land, its nature, and all creatures including humans are children of Kami. Accordingly, all things existing on this earth have the possibility of becoming Kami.

Suggestions from Shinto
Shinto regards the land and its environment as children of Kami. In other words, Shinto sees nature as the divinity itself. These days, people often say, “Be gentle to nature” or “Be gentle to the earth.” But these expressions sound somehow like the fault of putting the cart before the horse. We feel it is humanity’s arrogance. It seems that humans can dominate nature as the master and ultimately “repair” nature, using technical-scientific means. But Kami are the origin of all lives, and the life of all things is deeply connected to them. This leads to an awareness of the sacredness of life and an appreciation for life given by Kami.

Now it's entirely possible that the cultural messages from this ancient animist tradition have been obscured by modern changes, but it strikes me as more than passing curious that an entire people could harden their hearts against the reverence for nature implicit in their most ancient religious tradition.

Perhaps it's just the Japanese bureaucrats on the IWC that have been so afflicted?

[kristopher]

40. How did we view whales when we were taking them for oil?

When you use the word "murder" to refer to an animal, what else do you call it except an anthropomorphic attribution?

What do you think are the chances you'd find people here pre1960 who wouldn't raise their eyebrows if you used the word murder to refer to whales?

This has been a very distinct and rapid shift in our values. The characteristics of the shift make me believe it is an extension of the cannibalism taboo (and related to food/resource abundance) as described by Harris.

The Japanese have experience mass starvation in the living memory of many of it people.


If this is starting to make sense to you, I have a plan if you want to email me.

[GliderGuider]

41. We have no explicit animist tradition

The Japanese, however, do. I'm not saying there aren't extenuating circumstances, though I don't think that post-war starvation qualifies where whales are concerned. There's lots of other food available now, and the Japanese only consumed 15,000 tonnes of whale meat in 1985

I'm specifically taking issue with your insinuation that the Japanese have a cultural blind spot regarding whales that prevents them from extending similar considerations to whales as we do. You appear to be misrepresenting aspects of Japanese culture to justify your recommendations for appeasement.

FWIW, I'm a much bigger fan of Churchill than Chamberlain.

[kristopher]

42. Ok I see.

You are going to refuse to answer any of the specif points I raise.

[GliderGuider]

43. Our positions are orthogonal

The specific point I'm addressing here is one that intersects with my position. I have little to no interest in the others.

[kristopher]

44. Of course not, they disprove your simplistic thesis

Of course not, they disprove your simplistic thesis seeking to maintain a mindset based on a proved fallacious understanding of the circumstances.

Added on edit: That attitude is another trait your view shares with the fundamentalist anti-abortion zealots; "Don't bother me with the facts!"

[GliderGuider]

45. I understand that it's frustrating

When someone declines to conduct the debate on your terms.

[kristopher]

46. You "debate" like any other fundamentalist dealing with congnitive dissonance.

[GliderGuider]

48. Is it important to you that I engage in this debate?

I'm just one more schmoe on the internet after all -- it's not like I can influence the Japanese government or the IWC.

[kristopher]

49. You are the motive force. I suggested there is no resolution.

[GliderGuider]

50. I agree that there is no resolution.

I just posted an insight on Japanese culture.

We can just drop the whole thing until SSCS gets under way again this winter :-)

[GliderGuider]

47. self-delete

[borelord]

51. thank god for sea shepherd

Or it would have been worse.
see them at work:

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=36028434