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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 05:28 PM
Original message
Emissions testing, Al Gore take note and take action
Edited on Wed Jul-23-08 05:32 PM by 4MoronicYears
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-23-08 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. What point are you making? N/T
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Point, reduction in the burning of fossil fuels to do the same
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 05:25 AM by 4MoronicYears
amount of work. Reduction in the amount of pollution affecting my lungs and your lungs, reduction in the need to hoard platinum and other precious metals to build catalytic converters, after burners, (such as on the new diesel pickups), reduction in the need to debate whether or not this system makes a difference. IMHO this ends the discussion.

I don't know about you, but for me this is on the other side of ridiculous.

Screw the recall. Ford should offer an afterburner kit on all its Super Duty pickups. What better way to tell GM and Toyota the blue oval is not to be trifled with than a column of flame shooting from its tailpipe. Extra special bonus for gunning it next to a saw mill or propane distribution center. Mike Spinelli

March 23, 2007  As bizarre as this may look, flames from a tail-pipe are not unheard of by any means. Ask anyone that has improperly set the floats in a carburetor or watched a stock car race at night. But this is a diesel and these kinds of things don't happen right? What you are looking at is a 2008 model truck equipped with a diesel engine that has an exhaust aftertreatment system and the result of an obvious malfunction. All diesel engines built and certified for highway and off road use after January 1, 2007 are required to have an exhaust aftertreatment system to meet the requirements of tightening Federal emmissions standards. Apparently we are learning new things about these systems as we put them to the test on the streets. The related video clip shows one such lesson in action, however the DTS does not know the origin of the video therefore we do not know where, or when it was shot and what the root cause of this thermal event was.

The aftertreatment system uses a Diesel Particulate Filer, or DPF, which is designed to collect and incinerate diesel particulate matter that is produced by the combustion process in diesel engines. This process is known as regeneration and it is automatically performed under certain operating conditions to clean the DPF and reduce system backpressure caused by the collected diesel particulates. To burn the particilate matter, the exhaust temperature needs to be elevated to around 1100F. The 6.4L Power Stroke engine achieves and regulates this heat by injecting small amounts of fuel during the exhaust stroke as it monitors the exhaust temperatures though the use of three temperature sensors located in the exhaust system. On a couple of rare occasions, a fuel injector or the turbo has failed, combined with the normal regeneration process and produced a flame. These types of failures allow unmetered fuel or uncontained engine oil to mix with the exhaust gasses and ignite if the exhaust temperature raises high enough.

Details on the safety recall 07S49 are limited but the recall states that the PCM recalibration is to limit these temperatures in the event of this rare combination of events... What you have to understand is that manufacturers do not reveal things like calibration information and just how the new calibration will limit the exhaust temperatures or what was changed. We can speculate that a limit was never set, the tolerances were not tight enough or a limit was not thought to be necessary. After all, oil and fuel is not supposed to be getting into the exhaust and perhaps this kind of thermal event did not occur during the extensive testing period. We may never know but we are pleased to see that this concern has been identified and addressed early on. You never can tell what will unexpectedly turn up as new technologies progress.

Recall 07S49 was released on March 23, 2007 which requires the affected vehicles to have their Powertrain Control Modules recalibrated. If you own a 2008 F-250/350/450/550 vehicle equipped with a 6.4L diesel engine that was built at the Kentucky Truck Plant before March 9, 2007 you will receive a recall notice to have this recall performed. You may contact your local Ford dealer to see if your vehicle is affected or you can also visit to enter your truck's Vehicle Identification Number (VIN) to see if it has been recalled.
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Jolly good
Edited on Thu Jul-24-08 02:27 PM by Howzit
From your first link:

"Its not the HHO that makes the engine run. Its what the HHO does to the inefficient gasoline concerning combustion efficiency. Gasoline is but only 13% efficient on average when it comes to actual power produced by the combustion process. Adding an additional fuel and oxidizer "aka HHO" causes the inefficient gasoline to burn at a rate of better than 95% efficiency"

This creates the impression that efficiency improves from 13 to 95% with HHO. Read carefully and it states overall efficiency averages only 13% before HHO and combustion efficiency is 95% after HHO. The first value includes thermal efficiency and mechanical efficiency and averages in the time when the engine is idle at red lights and running rich during warm up. The second value states that you are almost burning all the fuel in the combustion chamber with no mention of how much energy is available to do useful work - not based on thermal or mechanical efficiency.

I was under the impression that greater than 95% of the fuel is burnt in the combustion chamber in a properly tuned car during steady state cruising. Only during hard acceleration over some engine speed and full power operation is the mixture really rich for the sake of intake charge cooling to suppress knock. Since the mixture is richer than stoichiometric then there isn't sufficient oxygen to burn all the fuel in the combustion chamber and HHO wouldn't help. Full acceleration can only be used for a few seconds at a time - a small fraction of operating life - and only economy cars with tiny engines get close to using full power when cruising on the highway.

Anyway, your point is well taken that HHO could utilize fuel that would otherwise be burnt uselessly in the catalytic converter (air is injected into the cat to make this work). Perhaps HHO might be at its most useful with diesel engines because they operate with an excess of air (oxygen) most of the time and HHO could help reduce soot, especially with older vehicles.
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cosmik debris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It's sales pitch, not science.
There is no independent third party verification that these things work.

The emissions results in the OP may well be true, but the claims that their product is responsible for those results is unverified. It is just part of the sleight of hand sales pitch.

Also, we have no evidence that these results could be sustained for more than a few minutes.

This scam has been around for fifty years (that I know of) and the only thing that changes is the sales pitch.

The OP has posted links to several companies with the same scam going. None of these companies have submitted their devices to independent third parties for testing.

And you can bet you ass they won't do it any time soon.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I don't have any third party tests proving that men
walked on the moon... do you deny that this event actually happened or do you take someone's word for it??? Tic toc, tic toc... bright kids here, you could learn a thing or two.
Indeed, the Bright School students went beyond what was needed for the contest and tested their theory by putting together a kit and installing it in an old van.

The kit uses electricity from the cars battery to separate water into its two hydrogen molecules and one oxygen molecule. When the separation takes place, the gas HHO, also known as Browns gas or hydroxy, is produced and burned on demand and in conjunction with gasoline by the vehicles engine.

What the boys found proved their theory.

Gas mileage on the GMC Vandura 2500 increased by 19.5 percent, and the vehicle went from failing the state emissions test to passing it.

O.J. Morgan, headmaster of Bright School, said the project showed the two boys already are looking for real-time solutions.

Theyre thinking about solving problems, he said. Its something theyre bringing to our attention. Its a part of their world.

Mrs. McMillan, who agreed to sponsor the students after they had learned about the properties of water and had an understanding of compounds from her class, said they only worked on the project outside of class.

I said I would sponsor them, she said, but then I never heard from them again. They worked a lot of late nights. It shows they can do as much as you give them and even more.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. How long you gonna play the part of Baghdad Bob in here??
Pretty sad that you STILL do not get it. I guess it's hard to be proven wrong in public like this, but look on the bright side, you have me to thank for it all.

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. And you can bet you ass they won't do it any time soon.
Some people cannot find their ass with both hands.... seen yours lately?

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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It's a sales pitch for a gas that doesn't exist according to some,
wasn't it you who made that awfully erroneous blurb??

Water Torch Collective, Ltd. WTC manufactures and sells ER series Water Torches, (Brown's Gas generating machines) using Eagle-Research technology exclusively.

WTC Distributor websites:
Alex Roeske Dann McCreary / Noah Seidman / AllCraft Tool and Supply Company (seller) / Sells a microtorch that makes Brown's Gas, made by ?Krohn? Is a supplier to the jewelry industry. Sells 'Fluxed Flame' electrolyzers made by Krohn?

Alvin Crosby, Managing Director of Ether Corporation Ltd. PO Box 89141, Auckland 10, New Zealand, Tel: 64-9-4795300, FAX 64-9-4795300 Alvin learned of Brown's Gas from Yull Brown. He secured the rights to remanufacture Yull's Australian version and made several improvements. At the moment he services machines but does not seem to be building them.

AquaGas (NZ) Ltd. (a division of ECP Ltd) / 88 Hinemoa Street Birkenhead, Auckland New Zealand

Arizona HydroGen Manufacturing, Inc. They have been selling microtorches that make Brown's Gas for decades and have an excellent reputation. Dennis McMurray, President. 4225 E. Madison Street, Phoenix, Arizona, 85034. Phone 602-275-4126, FAX 602-267-8787 Makes 20-300 liter electrolyzers, based on William Rhodes original patents.

Hydro-flame III $1,195 30 Lbs 40 Lph/250 Watts Micro $1,395 41 Lbs 85 Lph/450 Watts MG-75 $1,895 41 Lbs 75 Lph/450 Watts MG-150 $2,495 65 Lbs 150 Lph/900 Watts MG-300 $3,495 1.3 Lbs 300 Lph/1800 Watts

B.E.S.T. Australia Original Yull Brown water torch company Best China to view ordering information < > for pricing and specs B.E.S.T. Korea Co. Ltd. information on B.E.S.T Korea's Brown Gas Machines Model BK-20000 E-mail for pricing / Manufacturer of Brown's Gas machines. Spin-off of

B.E.S.T. Australia (Yull Brown technology). They make a variety of sizes and have been experimenting with various applications. 702-13 Yeoksan-Dong Kangnam-Ku, Seoul, Korea Phone, 822-538-5382, FAX 822-566-2933 / < > Models: Voltage Kw/H Kg BS-300 110 1.1 35 BS-600 220 2.2 48 BS-1600 220 6.3 128 BS-1800 220 7.1 146 HS-3000 380 11.8 175 HS-4000 380 15.7 225 Claim they use 'Activated Water Ceramics' for enhanced electrolysis efficiency. Have decent controls on the machines. Is spinoff of Yull Brown's technology, improved as did Alvin Crosby.

B.E.S.T Norinco Sites that sell the 'BN-' versions of Brown's Gas machines, Built by China company B.E.S.T. Norinco. These machines are promoted by Dennis Lee. Dennis Lee Distributors are from 'Better World Technology' or 'United Community Services of America'. Most of these machines use the obsolete parallel-cell electrolyzer technology. It is my understanding that Dennis Lee is addressing the problems these machines have. Sites selling 'NORINCO' version

Brown's Gas electrolyzers We have heard a rumor that Dennis Lee is now manufacturing his own version of a BG machine. Our current understanding is that he is only retrofitting the electronics of the Norinco machines.

NORINCO, subsidiary of China North Industries Corporation This company worked with Yull Brown to develop machines. Gave Yull Brown North American sales rights. BN200 BN1000 BN2000 BN4000 These machines are sold in North America by Dennis Lee of BWT and his distributors of USCA. These machines were not compatible with North American power and usually fail quickly. There are safety issues (could over pressurize) and it's just far more complicated than it needs to be. Quality control is barely adequate. Steel used is really soft.

Green Gas Generator PTE Ltd.
21 Pandan Road, Singapore, 609273 Tel: 65 268 1995, FAX: 65 264 6096 Yugoslav-born (1961?) Australian citizen, Mr. Dusan Petrovic worked with Yull Brown as a mechanical engineer. Split off about 1993 and developed his own machine in Singapore, setting up Green Gas Generator, Co. Model L/H kWh Kg $ 1500 1500 5.4 60 6,500? 2000 7 3000 10 3500 3500 12/3 phase 150 Has good electronics Has good warrenty Units sold seem to stay sold. Rumor: Has installed a 40,000 L/h in a Yugoslav shipyard? (not active) Manufacturer of Brown's Gas machines. They call the gas 'Green Gas'. The inventor of the Green Gas machine worked with Yull Brown in Australia before moving to China to build his own machines.

He decided to call the gas generated from his electrolyzers 'Green Gas'. The name is different but the gas is exactly the same. He did make his own patent (different from Yull Brown's) that used a form of series-cell technology. The company has changed hands and the new owners do not know the original inventor.

Green Gas Patents AU00099796A0, issued September 19/98, filed August 28/96 W009809001A1, issued March 05/98, filed August 22/97 AU04038297A1, issued March 19/98, filed August 22/97 According to Dr. Traharne, a BG enthusiast from Australia (who happens to own one of the original Australian built Yull Brown B.E.S.T. Australia machines) GreenGas spent $4,000,000 in development.

HyDro Flame / $1475.00 Size: unknown Hydrogen Technology Applications, Inc. Denny Klein, President Corporate Offices: 1421 Gulf to Bay Road Clearwater, Florida 33755 800-258-3806 Phone 727-449-2243 Fax 727-447-1659 Training Office: 4707 140th Ave.; Unit # 116, Clearwater, FL 33762-3831 h

ttp:// / price for H2O 1500 - $6995 H2O 2000 Gas Generator Machine actual purchase page $6999.95 Size: 1500 l/h / see also Aquygen

Here is a company, originating in Florida USA that has developed their own version of Brown's Gas electrolyzers. They call the gas Klein's Gas or HHO gas. Here are some associated links: < > Aquygen see also H2O 2000

Hydroxy PO Box 33392, Takapuna, Auckland, New Zealand, Tel/FAX 64-9-489-8383 aka Crosby Energy Systems Ltd. aka Hydrox Corporation Ltd. PO Box 35-425, Brown's Bay, Auckland, New Zealand aka Hydrox (USA) Corporation 16511 Hedgecroft, #228, Houston, Texas, 77060, USA

H2OWELD Inc 11 Ewing Avenue North Arlington, N.J. 07031-5001 - USA Tel: +1 (201) 991-2153 Fax: +1 (201) 991-1752 Toll Free: 1-877 H2OWELD Johnson Matthey 30 Bond Street, Ward Hill, MA, 01835-8099 TEL: 508-521-6300, FAX: 508-521-633 TEL: 800-343-0660, FAX 800-322-4757 Research Chemicals and Accessories Supplier sells 'Waterflame Microwelder 115V, 550 watts

King Mech < > or pricing, size and specs OH-50 OH-80 OH-150 OH-300 OH-600 OH-1000

L&R Manufacturing Co. = Westcott Co. 577 Elm Street, Kerney, New Jersey, 07032 USA TEL: 201-991-5330, FAX 201-991-5870 Company is over 60 years established and is a jewelry manufacturers supply business. Sells the 'Aqua-Torch 2800' 65 lbs, 1300 watts, can wired for 100/220/250 volts 5 CFH Has low pressure shutdown Has small torch accessories

OWELD this is characteristics section for price information go to < > OXYWELD = H2OWELD = OWELD Model 2.500 EP 4.600 EP 10.000 EP L/hr 550 1,100 2,400 kW 2.5 5 10 Weight Kg 80 150 285 Manufacturer of Brown's Gas machines.

It seems to be developed independently of Yull Brown, as were the Eagle-Research designs. They call the gas 'Oxyhydrogen.' This is an Italian design. < > Via Mezzomonte 20 33077 Sacile (PN) - ITALY Tel: ++39 0434 737 001 Fax: ++39 0434 737 002 The OXYWELD company was formed in 1981. After four years of extensive research and development, a unique system was produced to create gas from water. The gas generator was initially sold in Italy. In 1988 it was introduced in Spain, and another company called OWELD was formed under OXYWELD to support that market. In 1989 the expansion continued into Germany and the Eastern countries of Europe, leading to full service in Europe by 1995, with a network of distributors, representatives and service centers. In 1997 another company, H2OWELD, was formed in the United States and created a system of distribution and service for the North and South American Markets.

Shield Torch These people bought an ER1200 WaterTorch from WTC and are reverse engineering it. / both these sites are welding calculators Siam Water Flame Co. 381/60-61 Soi Bannmai,Chalampnimit Road,Bangklo,Bangkholaem,Bangkok 10120 Thailand TEL: (662) 688-5562,688-5563,668-5564 FAX: (662) 688-5565 for pricing go to < > energy and saving mileage.. no real specifics Please study the available model as follows HO-200 Mixed Oxygen-Hydrogen gas for jewelry manufacturer, watch manufacturer, and music instrument maker using for soft soldering, brazing, annealing, spot heating, silver soldering and hardening. HO-200-produces gas 400 lit/hr at 1 Bar US$ 1,875

HO-600 Mixed Oxygen-Hydrogen gas for jewelry manufacturer, watch manufacturer, and music instrument maker using for soft soldering, brazing, annealing, spot heating, silver soldering and hardening. HO-600-produces gas 1200 lit/hr at 1 Bar US$ 3,750 HO-1200 Mixed Oxygen-Hydrogen gas for jewelry manufacturer, watch manufacturer, and music instrument maker using for cutting and welding HO-1200-produces gas 2400 lit/hr at 1 Bar US$ 5,000 HO-1800A Mixed Oxygen-Hydrogen gas for semiconductor manufacturer using for pre-mark flaming of IC packages. This model produces gas 300 lit/hr with fully automatic system. HO-1800 A produces gas 3000 lit/hr at 1 Bar US$ 9,000 HO-1800 A produces gas 6000 lit/hr at 1 Bar US$ 12,500

Spirig Solder Absorbing Technology, Inc (Spirig Company in USA, Spirig is located in Switzerland) 144 Oakland Street, Springfield, MA, 01108 TEL: 413-788-6191, FAX: 413-788-0490 800-628-8862 < > SATUSA in business 20 years in USA, SPIRIG Switzerland in business 30 years From about 1999? Dipl. Ing. Ernest Sprig POBox 1140 Hohlweg 1 Ch-8640 Rapperswil Phone (+41) 55 222 6900 Fax (+41) 55 222 6969 < > Sells a nice series-cell electrolyzer. Has excellent robotic control of the flame. Model Volts Kg W $ 105HP 115-220 45/61 450 5,188 205HP 115-220 52/70 700 7,314 505HP 220-240 140/100 2000

Has many small torch accessories Sra Solder Micro1 ~ $1295 Size: unknown Micro 2 ~ $1895 Size: unknown Tip Temperature Products Flame Generator MG-75 $2095 Size: 75 l/h Flame Generator MG-150 $2795 Size: 150 l/h Flame Generator MG-300 $3895 Size: 300 l/h

USCA United Community Services of America. A company representing the products sponcered by Dennis Lee. Associated with 'Better World Technoogies.' Sells several different versions of the Norinco machines. Dealer Wholesale prices as of Nov. 1/98 BN 200-250 $1,356 104 LBS 8-10 WKS BN 600 $3,420 250 LBS 8-10 WKS BN 1000 $6,796 656 LBS 8-10 WKS BN 1200 $7,284 363 LBS 8-10 WKS BN 2000 $8,590 931 LBS 8-10 WKS The BN machines are made in China and have been regularly failing in operation. Failure is mostly in the electronics, which BWT/USCA is addressing and hopefully will have solved soon. Meantime, they have been having problems because they could not get sufficent technical help or spare parts out of China. These machines are based on obsolete Brown's Gas electrolyzer technology and do not compare well by size, weight, efficiency, simplicity or user friendlyness with newer technology as represented by Eagle-Research ERxxxx Water Torches as manufactured in North America.

VMB Trading We think they are selling Brown's Gas machines manufactured by someone else. Waxco Micro 1 ~ Code: 388003 Size: 90 l/h Micro 2 ~ Code: 383300 Size: 250 l/h Micro 3 ~ Code: 383310 Size: 350 l/h Micro 4 ~ Code: 383320 Size: 500 l/h < > for pricing Yoou Chang Enterprise Co., Ltd. City of Kaohsiung, South Taiwan Ruey Chen Tel: 011 886 7 645 0826 < >

Model Voltage kWh Kg OH-200 220 5.5 25 OH-800 220 8.8 110 OH-1000 220 13 180 Has modifier tank built in large full swivel casters. Building since 1988. In 1992, set up Oxy-Hydor Combustion Technology Division to further research flame energy. Will build custom machines.
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MrMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's another HHO thread
BTW, as of the moment, the linked site appears to be unavailable.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. 'Round Xmas it will be a
Ho Ho Ho thread.

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