Wind power and birds

[SHRED]

---

Was the killing of birds ever a real issue with wind power?
If so then has technology overcame the problem?

---

[madokie]

1. I think it was never an actual concern, just more you can't do it because bull

I used to see the birds lined up on my neighbors wind turbine blades when the wind wasn't blowing. I asked him about that very thing once and he said he never found a bird lying in his yard that crashed into his blades. Flying into a window now I've seen that happen, otoh.

[XemaSab]

18. I know a guy who went out to Altamont to count raptor carcasses

and he said it was total slaughter out there... he found dozens of dead birds under the windmills.

[madokie]

21. I'm sorry but I can't believe a word of that

[XemaSab]

27. You ever been to Altamont?

:shrug:

[dbackjon]

29. Then you are in denial

Responding to environmental concerns that spawned a federal lawsuit, operators of the installation agreed in January 2007 to a series of measures designed to reduce the roughly 1,700 to 4,700 bird deaths at Altamont Pass each year.

Among the birds killed there each year are protected raptors, including golden eagles, red-tailed hawks, American kestrels, and burrowing owls.

http://eteam.ncpa.org/commentaries/altamont-pass-settlement-fails-to-reduce-bird-kills

[diane in sf]

33. Altamont has old style windys-they are bird blenders-the new ones are less

deadly by far than windows and house cats.

[havocmom]

2. We KNOW pollution and climate change doesn't help them much

Airplanes coming in, taking off, probably more danger than windmills out in the open where there is no cover for birds. Windmill blades move. Birds know they are not trees. Birds are not really stupid. They observe and adjust behavior to best exploit their surroundings. They observe and adjust to threats. Migratory birds fly higher than the level of windmill blades. Local birds generally stay LOWER than windmill blades.

Wildlife biologist husband doesn't see that windmills would be a huge threat like 'THEY' are trying to convince us they pose. (Who is the THEY that are trying to sell the status quo? ;) ) He does know an awful lot of other biologists who chant what the people who really pay them want them to say, regardless of what the science, direct observation, and common sense tells them. One needs to pay attention to the messengers, and the agendas of who controls them, in order to really address the data.

edited for clarity

[Buzz Clik]

3. I heard RFK Jr use the "bird killer" argument against turbines off the coast in his backyard.

I was disgusted.

[ladjf]

10. It was recently proven that the Cape Cod wind initiative was

fought by the coal and oil industry. (I saw it on the INTERNET. Don't have the cite.)

[Buzz Clik]

12. They had an interesting ally in RFK Jr.

[ladjf]

13. That surprises me. Was he one of the Cape Cod residents that

was concerned about the "view"?

[Buzz Clik]

14. The view, the birds, the safety of boaters, etc. I listened to him amazed for a solid hour.

He debated the developer of the wind energy, and the debate was moderated by some higher up at Green Peace.

A corporate guy arguing for wind energy, RFK Jr passionate against it, and Green Peace as the voice of reason. The world was upside down for that one hour.

[ladjf]

16. Hmm. I would have thought that he would have sided with the

wind turbine group.

England is planning to dot the coastline with huge offshore turbines. By 2020, they intend to produce enough wind energy to power all of the residences in England. I don't think they are too worried about turbines dotting the off shoreline.

[Buzz Clik]

17. Here's a link that discusses the dynamics:

http://www.grist.org/news/muck/2006/01/12/capecod/

[ladjf]

24. Thanks for the link. I must say that Kennedy's position on the

wind farm disappoints me.

[NNadir]

25. Well, you can consider RFK a member of the fossil fuel industry. His Malibu gas terminal support

says all you need to know.

He's pretty much in the same category of dangerous fossil fuel owned self declared "environmentalists" Amory Lovins and Gerhard Schroeder.

[losthills]

28. Your smears on RFK are uncalled for and unwelcome.

RFK is a supporter of wind power, he just doesn't think Cape Cod is a good location.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/opinion/16kennedy.html

An Ill Wind Off Cape Cod

By ROBERT F. KENNEDY Jr.
Published: December 16, 2005

"AS an environmentalist, I support wind power, including wind power on the high seas. I am also involved in siting wind farms in appropriate landscapes, of which there are many. But I do believe that some places should be off limits to any sort of industrial development. I wouldn't build a wind farm in Yosemite National Park. Nor would I build one on Nantucket Sound, which is exactly what the company Energy Management is trying to do with its Cape Wind project. "

RFK is not the only thoughtful person to raise issues regarding the appropriateness of the cape wind project. It doesn't mean that he's against wind power, and calling him a "member of the fossil fuel industry" is just a lie.

[kristopher]

32. Admitting what he's championed

He's wrong on the Cape Cod issue. He abuses information and arguments for selfish motives. Cape Wind is in one of the best locations out there for wind - technically, economically, and ecologically. The opponents of the project have spent more than $15 million dollars fighting against it. They also legitimized the validity of opposing wind farms because someone doesn't like looking at them. The opposition on selfish reasons by the Kennedy's has done grave harm to the effort to fight climate change. Without that obstructionism, there would be a couple of gigawatts of offshore wind power already in place off the east coast.
Their conduct has been shameful.

[losthills]

34. He might be right, or he might be wrong.

And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with someone. But NNadir's attack on one of our leading voices for environmental justice is not justified. I wouldn't support a wind farm in Yosemite, either. I've been to Cape Cod, and I can see why there would be misgivings about about developing a giant project there. I also have misgivings about offshore wind in general, because it costs 5 times more than onshore wind power. I have read about this issue for a long time and am not prepared to take a stand on it, myself. But I'm prepared to defend RFK any time, any where.... He's one of our best.

[kristopher]

35. What would it take to convince you about a wind farm in Nantucket Sound?

I've studied the topic closely, and the evidence is overwhelming that the single reason for opposition is the view. The sound isn't pristine; it is heavily used by humans - with all the resultant pollution that entails. If you want to remove fossil fuels from the power landscape, then the viewscape is going to be affected where ever there is a good wind resource. If that is acceepted as a valid reason for opposition in the case of the Kennedys, that means it is appropriate for anyone else to object for that reason. That, in turn, means that the only thing the fossil fuel/nuclear supporters need to do is stir up a crowd of people to complain about the view and they can close down the effort to go to renewables.

It is one thing to object to a use of local land because there is a real ecological impact; that can be measured. But when you legitimize something as subjective and non-measurable as 'the view', well that is a horse of a different color.

Kennedy is totally wrong.

[Nihil]

36. And there you have a large part of the problem ...

Not in your title but in your last line:

> He's one of our best.

When you realise that Kennedy is a bought out, hypocritical arsehole
and he is *STILL* one of your best, it sort of shows how much of a
fight everyone has on their hands ...

:shrug:

[losthills]

38. Bought out by whom?

Here's Robert Kennedy speaking:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb0v4ENtVhA

He doesn't sound like a "hypocritical arsehole" to me.
He sounds like one of our best.

[Dead_Parrot]

4. It's bollocks

Most turbines are large and slow moving these days: Yes, some birds (and bats) get whacked, but compared to the billions killed each year by habitat loss, cats, windows, poison/pollution and cell-phone towers, it's a complete non-issue.

[DinahMoeHum]

5. There are wind turbines coming to market that are "bird-friendly"

in that they do not have those huge propellers.

Google the words "wind turbines" and "bird-friendly" for more info.

:think:

[SHRED]

6. What about the noise they produce?

Is that an issue?

[madokie]

7. The smaller ones like my neighbors was is pretty noisy during real high winds

rrrr rrrr rrrr type noises. it was only a 5 kw on an 80 ft tower.

[ladjf]

11. The larger and more efficient wind turbines are almost inaudible.

[jaksavage]

8. It is a siting issue

Some areas are highly used corridors for raptors, so if they do the study they are supposed to , they avoid those high traffic areas. Siting the wind towers elsewhere.

[losthills]

26. Thanks.

You have to be careful where you place them. Now that they have learned that, it's not much of an issue.

[ladjf]

9. Mainly wind power in the U.S. is fought by advocates of

fossil fuels and nuclear. But, wind power is already on a cost level with conventional energy production. The only thing stopping the U.S. from have 15 to 20% of their electricity within 10 years are pro oil, coal and nuke interests. It's all about their money. They couldn't care less about the best interests of the human race or the environment. Human nature = Greed = Death.
A very sad tale.

[madokie]

23. You got it

One of my friends is a millwright and from time to time he works on wind turbines and some of the pics he has taken are awesome. The sizes of everthing including the towers are something else.

[kentauros]

15. I think we need a sticky thread of useful links...

I think we need a sticky thread of useful links to those topics that resurface again and again, such as windmills and birds :)

So, here are the pages that have the most recently and reliable information on the reality of birdkills and windpower:

Wind Power and Bird Studies
What Kills Birds? Human Causes of Bird Fatalities

also Bats and Wind Power

Now, bookmark 'em and post them again when I'm not around ;)


Oh, also here is some info on the older Altamont site. I believe this is the one most cited for birdkills, though I'm sure opponents conveniently leave out that this is one of the older sites with faster-turning blades. The size of the blades isn't the problem; it's the speed with which they turn and don't give the birds time to fly out of the way.

Altamont

Site...5,400 turbine site (mostly older) on grassland.
Date...Surveys conducted 1989-2002. Several studies, some ongoing.
Findings...Significant raptor mortality recorded. (Exceptionally high raptor and prey density.) Small numbers of some other species involved.

[kristopher]

19. Good post.

Siting a wind farm properly is the best way to mitigate bird kills. I'd add that the design of the Altamont Pass turbine towers was a significant factor. The lattice design was used as a nesting area and bring the birds into closer proximity to the turbines.

That has been dealt with by making the towers tubular, eliminated the opportunity.

The accepted rate of avian fatality is 2 birds per turbine per year. Some consider that high, most don't.

The best study done to date is by Desholm published between 2005-2007, and included a couple of years worth of radar tracing data for every single bird that flew in the vicinity of the wind farm studied. Virtually all the birds flew around the wind farm. The cumulative tracks make a very cool picture, but I couldn't figure out how to post it here since the paper is pdf protected from copying.

[kentauros]

30. I didn't realize that about the Altamont tower structure, but it makes sense.

One thing I had thought of was if anyone has noticed a difference in birdkills when buildings and skyscrapers started using mirrored glass versus the "normal" kind. Those mirrored towers are bad enough at sunrise and sunset to drivers, let alone birds. Plus, that added reflectivity could certainly cause more of the illusion that there's more sky there instead of a wall of glass.

That radar graphic sounds pretty cool. What you might do is zoom the window on your PDF-viewer until it's all in the screen, then do a screenshot (use the "PrintScreen" button, then paste into a graphics program or just Word.) Crop it as needed and post however you normally do for images :)

[yurbud]

20. If they did, you could open a restaurant with ''clean energy'' bird dishes on menu

[stuntcat]

22. bats

I heard once they can also trouble bats, important little animals.. though getting the power somehow is important too.

(NOT to join you good people's wind/no-wind battle here.. how y'all can stand to be so hateful every day I really do not know x( )

[kentauros]

31. I'm not hateful.

Did you see the link I posted above about bats and windfarms?

:)

[stuntcat]

37. oh!

thank you, I didn't, I'm going to look at it!

(I've learned to paint everyone with the hateful brush in the topic forums, it's not right though :D)