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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:30 PM
Original message
Britons 'in favour of wind farms'


Britons 'in favour of wind farms'
A wind farm
Critics say wind farms are a blot on the landscape
Three-quarters of Britons believe wind farms are necessary to help meet the energy demand, a survey by the British Wind Energy Association suggests.

The body claims the vast majority of the public feels the need for clean sources of renewable energy.

The study also suggests 70% of those polled would support the creation of a wind farm in their area.

But opponents of wind farms say they are unsightly and point out that wind is an unreliable source of power.

Two surveys have merged into the study: one by World survey on behalf of BWEA, and one by ICM Research on behalf of Greenpeace....

more.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3670746.stm
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pansypoo53219 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-19-04 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. you don't need that many
in denmark,i saw scatered huge windmills. granted, i was not all over the country, but mainly they were on the coast line or on hills.
no biggy.
of course i didn't check the bottom of any for bird corpses.
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Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
2. "opponents...point out that wind is an unreliable source of power."
How is wind unreliable? Do they think the wind will stop and it'll never be windy again?

I'm all for any means of renewable energy.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. they mean that wind doesn't blow constantly, so it's hard to load-balance
I think that wind and solar are great, but they do have some disadvantages. It's hard to get a constant and completely predictable amount of power from them. You end up needing some kind of energy storage facility nearby. A really big energy storage facility.
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DrWeird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Should be pretty reliable...
if you stick them in places that get high winds 364+ days out of the year. The North Sea seems like a pretty reliable spot.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Night time?
Is the North Sea wind constant for 24hrs? In my area we can get 15 or 16 along the coast, but the early AM hours are quiet. Hence a baseload generator is required in addition to any wind project.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-20-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Actually great progress has been made in controlling the load and output
of wind plants. They do not in general use storage systems, since storage systems are very expensive both in internal (charged) and external (uncharged) costs. Wind turbines are simply matched to the grid by the use of feathering the blades to control rotation, and through the use of modern electronics such as inverters (which are also used in solar cells).

Here is how Western Power in Australia manages load with their wind farm at Ten Mile Lagoon, with 2 Megawatts of installed capacity:

http://www.westernpower.com.au/html/about_us/environment/renewable_energy/renewable_wind.html

This link is interesting in another way, it gives an idea of the capital cost of building wind farms: According to the link:

"Situated on a ridge 16km west of Esperance, the Ten Mile Lagoon wind farm is ideally placed to take advantage of prevailing winds. Established in October 1993, with a capacity of 2025kW, at a cost of AUS$5.96 million, it is Australia's first commercial wind farm and is still one of the best-located wind farms in the world."

Now I will compare the two cleanest forms of energy known, nuclear and wind.

If we scaled this wind farm so that it produced 1000 Megawatts (electric) like a typical nuclear light water reactor, IE enlarged it by a factor of 500, the cost would be $6 million (Aus) X 500 = $3 billion dollars (Aus) or roughly $1.5 billion US. Of course, the wind farm has a zero fuel cost, whereas a nuclear plant has a nominal fuel cost. Still we see, at least in France, where the practitioners of bureaucratic judo are not able to artificially drive up costs, that the capital costs of building nuclear plants and wind plants are roughly comparable in dollars per Watt.

The wind farm would of course need to cover many square kilometers to match this capacity, whereas the nuclear plant could be contained in a few hundred hectares at most.

The wind farm of course uses completely renewable fuel. Nothing is consumed and presumably the energy will be available to all the generations of humanity such as may exist. Nuclear resources, depending on how they are used, are likely to last only a few millenia, after which they will be depleted (at the cost of eliminating about 10 naturally occurring elements from the periodic table.) Moreover the wind farm will produce very few materials that will require elaborate processing to reduce toxicity. It is possible to reduce the risk toxicity of nuclear materials to whatever level one chooses to do (depending on how much money one is willing to commit per life saved), but the systems for doing this depend on a highly educated workforce using highly sophisticated equipment.

On the other hand, wind farms have much lower plant utilization (they shut down whenever the wind stops) and therefore are much slower to recover capital costs. This means that if they are the same cost as a nuclear facility in dollars per watt of rated capacity, they actually have a much longer amortization period, since unlike nuclear plants, they can never run at 90%+ capacity.

On balance though, it is completely insane to oppose wind power wherever it is suitable for installation. (Note to the citizens of Massachusetts and New Jersey: Your ocean front views are somewhat less important than the integrity of the planetary atmosphere.) After my remarks on the decline of Chemistry in the UK, I am glad to read that Britons are sensible in some areas.

As we all know (since I am one to beat a horse not merely to death but in fact will beat the horse to the point at which the horse begins serious decomposition, even to the point where the horse vaporizes) I believe it is also insane to oppose nuclear power, but that's off topic here.



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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Then I propose that we erect several million, ASAP
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Baseload Issue
This still doesn't solve the issue of BaseLoad Power. Wind is a god choice for peaking capacity. But for clean BaseLoad power it's either large storage systems with renewables or Nuclear.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. True.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Anybody know how large such a storage system would have to be?
My intuition says that it would require very large and expensive storage facilities. But I assume it's possible to work out a good estimate with real numbers.
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Est. 70,000 acres or 300sqkm
1 KW-Hr of storage is about 367 thousand kilograms of water raised 1 meter. So for a water reservoir with a 100 meter elevation difference you need 3670 Kg of water for each KW-Hr stored. To supply thenequivalent of 1 modern base load nuke for 8 hrs, 1000MW * 8hrs or 8000MW-HR = 29 Billion Kg of water stored at 100 meters or roughly 29 million cubic meters of water. Which at an average depth of 10 meters would give a surface area of 2.9 million square meters or 716 acres or 2.9 SqKm. If you want anything to live in the reservoir it will need to be conciderably larger to limit the amount of depth change fish and other species would experience daily. Probablu somehting more like 70,000 acres or 300sqkm.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It might be preferable to go with the smaller version
Construct artificial reservoirs. Forget anything living in them, and keep them as small as possible.

I say this, from the point of view that I disapprove of damming up rivers. The total impact of an artifical reservoir, that is much smaller, might be an improvement over damming up a river. Things might live in a dammed river, but that would be at the expense of disrupting an existing riparian ecosystem.

Then, there is the compressed-air strategy...
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-21-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Today CA would require 21
Edited on Tue Sep-21-04 12:51 PM by One_Life_To_Give
Checked Cal ISO's website and see their base load for today was 21000MW. So CA alone would need 21 of these to provide power in addition to 45,000MW of renuable generation running 16hrs a day to shut down it's Fossil and Nuke generators for today. Although to meet their max load would require closer to 60,000MW of renuable generating capacity running 16hrs a day.
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